[HSList] Ritalin & ADD
TIM BANDY
In a message dated 98-04-05 10:36:29 EDT, you write:
<< Ouch! I know that your thoughtful reply did not intend to poke fingers but
could
we include that some parents pass on a genetic tendency to ADD/ADHD without
the
deplorable behaviours listed. >>
You can :) I cannot. I was merely summarizing the literature and the
literature does not say that... There has been considerable debate about ADD
problem behavior. Dynamic psychology which dominated American therapy until
the 1980s, blamed mothers mostly. Many therapists still suspect the family is
at fault for the behaviors.
According to ADHD experts and the ADHD research literature, the
disruptive and irritating behavior is in part symptomatic and in part the
result of low self-esteem. Supposedly, most ADD children develop low self-
esteem from their experience of constantly receiving negative feed back from
other people. I am using "ADD" as shorthand as what we are really talking
about here is ADHD. (According to current thinking, ADD and ADHD are
completely different disorders.)
Anyone who wishes to really get deep into the subject may want to read
the first and only major longitudinal study of ADD, Gabrielle Weiss & Lily
Trokenberg Hechtman, "Hyperactive Children Grown Up" 1986. Another major work
is Russell A. Barkley, "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: A handbook
for diagnosis and treatment" 1990 On medication: Edna D. Copeland,
"Medications for Attention Disorders and related medical problems," and Wayne
Hugo Green, :Child and Adolescent Clinical Psychopharmacology. " For current
official psychiatric thinking on the subject consult the most recent edition
of Kaplan & Sadock, "Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry" and Michael Rutter,
"Developmental Psychiatry." Read these and you will know much more about ADHD
than do the vast majority of therapists and physicians.
No less than the famous Larry B. Silver, M.D. will tell you this: If you
read his book alone, you will know more on the subject that do most
professionals; Larry B. Silver, "The Misunderstood Child: A guide for parents
of children with learning disabilities" ...Of course....this is only in my
humble opinion ;)
Tim B.
Jean Riskus
> From: Elaine <meha...@exis.net>
> To: homes...@efn.org
> Subject: Re: [HSList] Ritalin & ADD
> Date: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 4:21 AM
>
> There is another author, whose name escapes me at the moment, who
proposes
> ADD/ADHD as an evolutionary or cultural trait. His premise is that the
behaviors
> associated with ADD(I accept your simplified use of the term) are
actually
> normal
> behaviors developed over time in cultures which needed them. E.g. There
seems to
> be an increase in the incidence of these behaviors in American Indian
groups who
> have been hunters and nomadic, and a significantly lower number in Am.
Indian
> groups who have traditionally been agricultural. The analogy being that
the
> hunters needed such traits as higher metabolism, faster decision making
skills,
> ability to attend to many different stimuli at once, etc...The
agricultural
> people
> needed to be longer focusing, more detail oriented, and less impulsive.
I have
> found this to be an interesting theory and one that makes sense in my
situation.
It has crossed my mind more than once that if ADDers were in the majority,
"normal" kids would be put in special education. We're not stupid, we just
think differently, which is not accepted by society.
> ADD does not have to be a death sentence. Consider many of the great
minds
> of our
> time who bounced from one thing to another, had many diverse interests,
and
> never
> did well in organized classrooms. Make you wonder? It should.
Many successful people in the past who are suspected of having ADD either
homeschooled or taught themselves. Supports my theory.
Jean Riskus
> From: TIM BANDY <TIMB...@aol.com>> Date: Monday, April 06, 1998 9:50 PM
>
> According to ADHD experts and the ADHD research literature, the
> disruptive and irritating behavior is in part symptomatic and in part the
> result of low self-esteem. Supposedly, most ADD children develop low
self-
> esteem from their experience of constantly receiving negative feed back
from
> other people.
Just for the record, (and I know your quoting the book) I find that the low
self-esteem is symptomatic and in part the result of the disruptive and
irritating behavior. My kids have all come to me and said, "Mom, I know
what I do is wrong, but sometimes I don't know I'm doing it until it's
done." It breaks my heart. I had to tell, and still have to tell my
5-year-old, them I know what they mean because I do the same thing. Then
I'd try to explain to them why, as much as a small child can understand.
Now the boys are old enough to understand and have no problems with
self-esteem (sometimes they have too much). They do get teased by other
kids, so that does bring back the low self-esteem on occasion. I remember
my childhood. I would do things and know it was wrong after it was done
before any negative feed back was given. Then the guilt and self
degradation started because I was sure I was by nature a bad child.
> I am using "ADD" as shorthand as what we are really talking
> about here is ADHD. (According to current thinking, ADD and ADHD are
> completely different disorders.)
ADD is Attention Deficite Disorder *without* the hyperactivity. It
describes the short attention span, though there are other symptoms. ADHD
is the same thing *with* the hyperactivity. It is my understanding that, in
most cases, the ADD is retained throughout life, but the H disappears.
Jean
TIM BANDY
In a message dated 4/9/98 2:51:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rri...@ez-net.com
writes:
<< There is another author, whose name escapes me at the moment, who
proposes
> ADD/ADHD as an evolutionary or cultural trait. His premise is that the
behaviors >>
I am aware of the argument. There is also an argument that ADD does not
exist. Both views lack any scientific support and are not even well argued.
Those who make them usually come from a liberal or socialist political bent.
Many Psychodynamic therapists make these arguments. The bottom line is that
the Psychodynamic schools, which are off shoots of Freudian Psychoanalysis one
way or another blame parents, primarily mothers for child problems. I know of
only one well known psychiatrist who claims there is no such thing as ADD. He
is clearly coming from a left-liberal biases. What I mean by political biases
is not simply that someone has a political loyalty but that the loyalty comes
first and their psychological views are bent to support the political.
Several therapists have claimed that they successfully treat what is called
ADD without medication. The problem is very few of them will follow through
and submit their work to peer review. The American Medical Association is
very interested in a nonmedical treatment for ADD. The AMA has through their
psychiatric arm, The American Psychiatric Association, has an open policy
where they will investigate free of charge the work of any therapist who
claims to successfully treat ADD without medication. So far, every therapist
who has submitted their work to the APA for investigation turned out to be
completely ineffective at treating ADD without medication.
ADD was first discovered in the early 1900s by a pediatrician who
discovered the symptom pattern in children who had come down with a rare
strain of encephalitis. He also discovered that Dexedrine, a stimulant,
significantly improved the educationally and socially disabling symptoms.
It seems quite clearly established that ADD is real and most cases are
most likely genetic. Schizophrenia, the mental illness, is considered
genetic. In identical twin studies, if one twin has Schizophrenia, the other
twin will have it 75% of the time. In the ADD studies done so far, if one
twin has ADD, the other one will have it about 85% of the time.
So far, it appears that environment plays even less of a role in a genetic
load for ADD coming to the surface than it does for Schizophrenia. If twin
studies continue to show 85% for ADD appearance, we should conclude that
parental behavior has little impact on the appearance of ADD. How severe ADD
symptoms become is another matter. Appearance can be environmentally bullet
proof but severity of symptoms and lack of improvement over time may prove to
be dependent on environment. ---Of course, this is only my humble opinion.
Tim B.
TIM BANDY
In a message dated 4/9/98 2:52:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rri...@ez-net.com
writes:
<< ADD is Attention Deficite Disorder *without* the hyperactivity. It
describes the short attention span, though there are other symptoms. ADHD
is the same thing *with* the hyperactivity. It is my understanding that, in
most cases, the ADD is retained throughout life, but the H disappears.
>>
Actually, according to the current official psychiatric position, ADD and ADHD
are probably completely different disorders which simply share some similar
symptoms. There is a fundamental principle in modern medical thinking which
holds that when two diseases seem to be versions of the same thing, if they
are in fact the same, then the course of the disease should be the same. The
prognosis for ADD and the prognosis for ADHD are significantly different and
the ADD child is quite different that is the ADHD child. First, ADHD is
significantly more common among males than females. ADD is more common among
females than among males. ADHD children, if untreated, are at high risk for
adolescent substance abuse, poor academic performance, juvenile delinquency
and high school drop out. ADD children usually do not show any particular
problem behavior symptoms and are usually overlooked. They are overlooked and
thus allowed to drown in their problem because they are not a behavior problem
and are often written off as being simply flaky or as being an airhead. When
ADD is found to run in a family line, which it usually does, there are usually
ADD members as well as ADHD members but the ADHD members tend to out number
the ADD members.
There is no reason to believe that ADHD turns into ADD. About 50% of
children with ADHD symptoms seem be without the symptoms or with significantly
reduced symptoms by the time they reach young adulthood. There is no way to
determine who will and who will not leave the symptoms behind as they mature
physically.
By the way, I am not quoting a book. I have researched the problem
extensively. To my knowledge, I have read all of the major books and articles
on the subject. What I am posting is my analysis of the state of knowledge
and the thinking about ADD. In other words, ---in my humble opinion.
Tim B.
TIM BANDY
In a message dated 4/7/98 6:56:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, meha...@exis.net
writes:
<< His premise is that the behaviors
associated with ADD(I accept your simplified use of the term) are actually
normal
behaviors developed over time in cultures which needed them. >>
Yes, I agree with you that the data does not contain the whole picture. For
this reason, I construct an opinion based on the data and on the arguments
that exist in the field. I am aware of the evolutionary view. Fortunately,
we do not need to know where the problem came from or to agree on its origin
in order to help people who have the problem. There is also an argument that
the reason that half of American males die of heart disease is that these same
people were built for survival in the hunter gather days but do not do well in
modern high tech urban life. While interesting, the theory does not help us
help the half who now suffer from heart disease and an early death. Or so, it
seems to me. On the other hand, the theory that we should not be so quick to
treat fevers because fevers evolved as a defense against disease seems worth
spending some time and money on. The theory is based on some good solid
scientific data. The other theories mentioned here are not. At least, this
is how it appears to me.
Tim B.
Jean Riskus
>
> Actually, according to the current official psychiatric position, ADD and
ADHD
> are probably completely different disorders which simply share some
similar
> symptoms. There is a fundamental principle in modern medical thinking
which
> holds that when two diseases seem to be versions of the same thing, if
they
> are in fact the same, then the course of the disease should be the same.
The
> prognosis for ADD and the prognosis for ADHD are significantly different
and
> the ADD child is quite different that is the ADHD child. First, ADHD is
> significantly more common among males than females. ADD is more common
among
> females than among males.
In our family two males and one female have ADHD, and one male and two
female have ADD. The kids all have ADHD and the three adults have ADD (My
oldest daughter is 28). My oldest daughter had the highest degree of H than
any of the other kids. Listenting to my husbands stories of childhood, he
most certainly had ADHD. I know from my childhood that I devinitely had the
H too. It is quite possible that we learned how to control the H as we grew
into adulthood instead of outgrow it. But the symptoms aren't sexist in our
family. I might add that the H is much worse in the girls than in the boys.
MUCH worse!
> ADHD children, if untreated, are at high risk for
> adolescent substance abuse, poor academic performance, juvenile
delinquency
> and high school drop out. ADD children usually do not show any
particular
> problem behavior symptoms and are usually overlooked. They are
overlooked and
> thus allowed to drown in their problem because they are not a behavior
problem
> and are often written off as being simply flaky or as being an airhead.
My husband (also drank and used in the past), my oldest, and I all smoke,
so I can verify the substance abuse. One child has always done good in
school, even before being treated. The other two didn't do so good. The
youngest is only in K so I can't tell yet. Only the oldest showed
tendencies toward Juvenile delinquency. My siblings dropped out of high
school. I was the only one who graduated, but that's another story. So this
is consistent with our family.
Elaine Harvey
Hi Tim,
You know, in all honesty, I think some of my preference of this argument is that
it takes some of the blame off me. (Although they are my genes...) But it does
hold water in my particular case genetically. I found your explanation of the
difference between ADD and ADHD quite thought provoking. I have to do some real
reading on that one. Makes good sense on the surface.
Also, your history of the diagnosis is really interesting, would certainly bear
more reading.
To summarize, thank you for the great info, now my reading list is even longer ;-)
Elaine
TIM BANDY
In a message dated 4/11/98 7:07:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rriskus@ez-
net.com writes:
<< One child has always done good in school, even before being treated. The
other two didn't do so good. >>
Fortunately, paper and pencil learning does not cover all of learning,
intelligence or talent. A good mechanic or carpenter is not inferior to a
good English teacher or a good accountant. I would make sure the ADD children
do not fall into the trap set by a narrowly defined education system, which
focuses on paper and pencil work as if it is the beginning and the end, the
alpha and the omega. Work on the weaknesses and emphasize the strengths. I
would have the ADHD students in high energy sports. Wear them out and give
them a way to feel competent. Let them stand up and move around when they do
book work. If they are home schooled, read out loud and have them do their
lessons out loud. ADHD children like to talk anyway, so I would use it for
them, instead of against them.
Meanwhile, they have to work hard on self-control, finish one activity before
moving on to another, practice focusing and staying on task.
ADHD adults make good soldiers. Not much gets by them in the field.
They just need good leadership to keep them on task and they tend to be
creative. The high energy makes them good potential workers as they like to
be in motion. ... Or, so it seems to me.
By the way, ADD and ADHD are not sexist. Just as breast cancer is not
sexist :) And the gender difference is only a tendency, meaning merely that
more than half of ADD students are female and more than half of ADHD students
are male. Some parents prefer a period of juvenile delinquency from their
boys over some pregnancy from their girls. In this sense, there may be a
little sexism in parents of ADD children, in a tendency to prefer ADHD in
their boys over the idea of it in their girls ;) Or , so it seems to me
Tim B.
Charles & Dianna
>In a message dated 4/11/98 7:07:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rriskus@ez-
>net.com writes:
>
><< One child has always done good in school, even before being treated. The
>other two didn't do so good. >>
>
TELEVISION with these children (ADD/ADHD) is like Alchohol to an
Alchoholic. Parents need to realized that these children don't need any
more of it. Audio cassettes, Books on Tape, Rebus Books, etc. would be a
good intial alternative. As my dad used to say, "You don't wind a clock
that is already wound up."
Dianna E.
Elaine Harvey
Dianna,
I like that clock analogy. I would agree with most of what you say. We use any
sensory stimulation that seems to get the material in. If flashing pictures and
lively sound do it then I'll use it. Only if it is productive though. Mind you,
that gets balanced with books on tape (which I consider a godsend), Highly
interactive computer games, high interest books, anything that works is fair
game with me.
Any parents out there have other unusual suggestions for lessons?
Elaine
Jean Riskus
My children have the TV watching monitored and are encouraged to do other
things. The oldest spends most of his time in his room reading. It's next
to impossible to pull him away from his books.
Jean
----------
> From: Charles & Dianna <erri...@vcn.com>
> To: homes...@efn.org
> Subject: Re: [HSList] Ritalin & ADD
> Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 7:04 PM
Jean Riskus
We do play-acting in some of our lessons. My son is a real ham, so we have
a riot with this method, and he has fun learning. For instance, he can add
on paper and with a calculator, but has trouble adding in his head. I made
a restaurant menu with priced hot dogs, fries, hamburgers, etc. I was the
patron, and he was the waiter. I came in as a beach dude with my beach
friends for a bite to eat after surfin. I gave him the orders and he had to
submit the bill. He got right into it, we did a lot of laughing, and he did
great adding up the orders.
Jean
----------
> From: Elaine Harvey <meha...@exis.net>
> To: homes...@efn.org
> Subject: Re: [HSList] Ritalin & ADD
> Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 11:31 AM
>
> Dianna,
> I like that clock analogy. I would agree with most of what you say. We
use any
> sensory stimulation that seems to get the material in. If flashing
pictures and
> lively sound do it then I'll use it. Only if it is productive though.
Mind you,
> that gets balanced with books on tape (which I consider a godsend),
Highly
> interactive computer games, high interest books, anything that works is
fair
> game with me.
> Any parents out there have other unusual suggestions for lessons?
> Elaine
>
> Charles & Dianna wrote:
>