[HSList] Definitions of success(was Why I homeschool)
Melissa Wise
>
> An interesting observation. Could it be that today's parents are part of the
> same regimented peer-pressure (a.k.a. classrooms), media-influenced system
> that their children are. Are we taught or is it human nature to constantly
> compare ourselves with others. Homeschoolers are not immune to this, BTW. More
> people need to risk being seen as "eccentrics" and "weirdos" and by so doing,
> follow their own consciences and agendas, not somebody elses.
Bravo! Well said!
My husband is billing himself as a mad scientist...that means I get
to be the wife of a mad scientist! How much more eccentric can anyone
on the list get?!?!
I want to hear from all of you about your eccentricities, what would
people raise an eyebrow over you about?
Melissa
---
Melissa Wise
mw...@simreal.com
Elaine Harvey
Hmmm....Traditional Indian, sings on a drum which practices in her home once a week,
starts the day out with smudge and prayer, kids are studying Lakota language
(studied Iroquois last year), kids are studying 'our' version of US History....
I don't think I even know where to begin to tell you what about these things people
would raise their eyebrows at. :-D
Elaine
TIM BANDY
In a message dated 4/30/98 11:12:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dho...@Moneynet.COM writes:
<< Instead, there should be a strong/kind leadership >>
I would go further yet. From observation, I have noted that if one ers it is
better to er on the side of being a little too harsh than being indulgent and
lax. I think I fully understand why all of the Jackson's (except for the
unsuccessful, self-indulgent Jackson) are so protective of their father. They
know that overall he was a good father to them. This is what they have tried
to tell the public repeatedly. He was a simple, undereducated man who was
forced to rear his father in a terrible, crime riddled environment. Through
the only means he knew (being overly strict) he saw to it that his children
obeyed the law, had nothing to do with all the crime and sin everywhere around
the home, did well in school and graduated from High School. Yet, the media
and many other people delight in attacking him. Detroit's Gordy is another
example. Gordy demanded clean living or at least the appearance of clean
living from his singers. They had to speak politely and cleanly in public.
Their acts were clean and well polished and their music lyrics had to be
respectable and they had to dress well. Many people love to attack Gordy but
even Michael Jackson, who stood up to him and went his own way in the end,
speaks well of him. Gordy took poor, struggling musicians and made them
stars.
I think back of the kids I knew who had very harsh fathers. They were
hard working, responsible men, who demanded the same of their sons. They were
not allowed to go very far from the home and they had a lot of chores. They
received a small allowance and gifts on special occasions. They never would
just buy them lets say a Nintendo on impulse, especially never on demand.
These boys I have in mind were often grounded for short periods for what are
now considered minor infractions, speaking disrespectfully, sulking, showing
an attitude. They were told when it was time to get a job and how to do the
job. There were times when I felt sorry for these particular friends. But
you know.... Not one of them were ever in trouble with the law. They are all
successful family men. Yes, they have their life issue with their father that
they carry around but ... then there was this kid down the street. His father
was a loud supporter of JFK. He did not bother church and did not want it to
bother him. He forbid his son to call him "Dad." He had to call him "Buddy."
He criticized just about every father in the neighborhood as being backward
and severe and not giving their children choices, etc. He was extremely
outspoken about fathers who spanked. He said his Mike should not be wasting
his youth time on work. There would be plenty of time for that later. When
those of us who went off to college went, Mike went too.
Mike had really long hair and beads and Mike died his sophomore year from a
bad batch of heroin. I think one of us drank alcohol but most of us like
myself had little interest in it. We certainly would not even think of trying
drugs of any kind. We were what many would call over controlled today. Well,
we walked right past the protesters and the hippies and wanted only to cast
our vote on election day and to get the best grades in college we could.
I was known as the independent thinker on campus. It was my
promiscuously reared college friends who seemed to have great difficulty
finding their way. They demonstrated their autonomy gained from indulgent
parenting by smoking nearly every joint passed their way, attending drinking
parties weekly, lockstep joining every campus protest and accepting whole
meal, every view dished out to them by the rabble rousing professors on
campus. Or, so it seemed to me
Tim B.
kat ross
I think both Tim and Zehra have very good points. It would seem to me
that the core of the issue is overindulgence, and when and to what
degree it is appropriate.
My personal experience in both raising 3 children, (8,21,25), and
homeschooling all three has been close to Zehra's, although my family is
second generation American of Nortic decent.
Due to circumstances I chose to control, I removed my children from
'materialism' about the time of Izod shirts and Members Only jackets. We
went from being comfortably well off to the poverty level. The impact on
their education and popularity was nil. The impact on their value system
(and isn't that the point) was great. No being walking billboards for
some fashoin designer or sports hero. No $20.00 allowance to blow while
mom & dad were at work to pay for the pool and Mercedes. Like Zehra's
experience, they had to unify and get their priorities straight.
I do agree with Tim that for the first time in world history children
have signifigance beyond being either part of the labor pool or just
another mouth to feed. And that there is the possibility that we're
going overboard in 'protecting' them...perhaps too huggy/warm fuzzy.
Isn't it true that often the most loving thing a parent can say is
"NO!".
Kudos to all you parents out there...from one viewpoint to another, no
matter. At least you care & you're giving it your all!
"Simple pleasures are the last refuge of the complex" Oscar Wilde
b...@webtv.net
Hi Tim,
You know, I agree with you. My mother was a single mother, we lived in a
poor area. She was determined for her girls to be like the others. She
was real strict on us. I used to think it wasn't fair, but you know, now
I don't. Now, I agree with how she disciplined. I also am strict with my
girls. I also don't allow any disrespect, showing of attitude or talking
back. Talking back gets your mouth washed out with soap in my house.
They learn real fast not to talk back. It works for awhile, then they
try it again, then again the soap. My older daughter, who does the
talking back, is doing it less and less. I wonderf why? My husband says
that I'm too strict on my girls, but doesn't mind when people tell him
what good girls he has and how well they listen. HMMMM??
I don't go in for beating, but discipline definately is needed. Too many
children are being given the reins for to early, and many children don't
and can't handle their responsibility on it. children need fences, this
is where they thrive.
Zehra
Cynhome
I strongly disagree with Tim and the other writer about harshness necessarily
resulting in positive young people. Research repeatedly shows (and I'm not
just going on research, I and others have also frequently observed this) that
kids who are most likely to act up as kids and be sneaky and problematic as
adults are people who EITHER have parents who are overly permissive OR parents
who are overly harsh, although parents who are overly authoritarian do
slightly better than parents who are overly permissive. The parents who do
much better than both groups however, are parents who offer fair, firm
guidelines, but who know when flexibility is warranted. These are parents who
are kind but strong, parents who are gradually give their children more
decision making power as they grow, to gradually teach them to self-monitor
themselves. They are parents who realize their children will make some
mistakes. If the mistake was an already established rule with a consequence,
the child will get the consequence, of course, but of course there are times
when children merely exercise bad judgment just from inexperience, or because
they've perceived a situation incorrectly. These are handled with
understanding, but the child is told exactly why their decision was not a good
one, and consequences for future behavior are set up. These parents also make
sure the children have plenty of praise for the good things they do,
encouragement for working hard, and plenty of hugs and kisses.
Cynthia
Melissa Wise
These are handled with
> understanding, but the child is told exactly why their decision was not a good
> one, and consequences for future behavior are set up. These parents also make
> sure the children have plenty of praise for the good things they do,
> encouragement for working hard, and plenty of hugs and kisses.
>
> Cynthia
>
still going...
my father was about to wash my wouth out with soap when I was 5 or 6,
for picking my nose and eating my booger, mom stopped him and said
"over my dead body" later, I went to the sink to see what it tasted
like. It was 'Joy' dishwashing soap. At that young age I made the
desision, if this is what Joy tastes like, I don't want to have
anything to do with it. As an adult, I have never used Joy
dishwashing soap at my sink and have had to redefine what Joy really
is.
By the way, dad almost strangled mom to death that night.
Our childrens discipline isn't about them, it's about ours and how we
discipline ourselves. Our kids will modle themselves after what they
see, hear and feel us doing.
Keep the soap by the sink it's for dishes, your childs mouth is for
kissing and talking, and asking questions. They may not be talking
back, but what else aren't they saying to you? What is it they are
saying that you would so vehemently keep from hearing?
I'm really coming from a postion of love here, not criticism, I hope
it comes across in my post that way and not like I'm ridiculing those
of you who it is intended for.
TIM BANDY
In a message dated 5/11/98 5:48:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kat...@webtv.net
writes:
<< there is the possibility that we're
going overboard in 'protecting' them...perhaps too huggy/warm fuzzy.
Isn't it true that often the most loving thing a parent can say is
"NO!". >>
Interesting post. Your children have a good fighting chance with you as their
parent. A major problem, I think, is that people have not learned how to
survive success. If you consider the history of successful cultures, none of
them survived success. What seems to happen is a certain people during a
certain period have cultural traits that are well suited to the times. This
raises them to a position of success which results in unprecedented wealth and
power. This, especially the wealth, changes the very cultural traits that
made the people great. Worse than this, the culture ends up self destructing.
Look at Greece for example. The birth place of democracy. The birth place of
modern Western art, theater and philosophy. The birth place of science. The
Greek City states fell before the birth of Christ and Greece has been a mess
since. They still have not managed to recover democracy. Their history if
rife with civil war, political instability, poverty and so forth.
Lets consider America. Within my lifetime, I have seen greatness and I
now see severe cultural decline. When I was a boy, an American believed in
standing firm on one's own feet. Being called a socialist or a communist were
fighting words. Possession of a college degree brought one a degree of
respect (many working people now consider a person with a degree to be
something of a buffoon) because there were standards and obtaining a degree
was a true accomplishment. The 1960s and an American brand of socialism (I
call it UN-socialism because American socialists today deny they are Marxists
and insist that they are liberal democrats. Some really are. Many are not
liberals. They are socialists began the end of Americanism. Being a 'good
worker' was in America a near religious ethical system. The unions have
destroyed the work ethic. American engineers and inventors were the pride of
the world. Most of our engineers today are mediocre. The ones I knew as a
boy were exciting, fascinating people, who usually knew things far beyond
their degree field. I remember watching electronics engineers get together to
restore a car body, build an experimental airplane, etc. Now, many of them
are little different from any other book-learning lopsided white color worker.
Many are barely competent in their field and they are more focused on their
pay and benefits and office politics than they are on fine craftsmanship and
innovation. The people who are pushing our technology and thus the cause of
our current good economy are mostly college drop outs. Steven Jobs, of Apple
fame, Bill Gates of Microsoft (attended Princeton for one semester), Steve
Wozniac, the other brain who started the PC revolution with Jobs, is just a
technician. Again and again, your will find that our computer techno wizards
are self taught, not school educated.
When I was a boy being 'respectable' was the thing to be. People showed
respectable people respect, even the miserable usually acknowledged
respectability. Today, the respectable people we have left are made to feel
that they must hide or apologize for their high moral standards and their are
bad words for them such as "controlling," "inflexible,"
"rigid," "not with it," "too old fashioned." Yes, a person who holds fast to
values such as doing a good job, respecting one's neighbors, returning poor
behavior with one's own higher standards of behavior, hard work, paying one's
bills, proper money management, insistence on standing one one's own feet,
taking care of problems with other people properly and legally and many more
high values are no longer widely considered virtues.
These values are now subject to criticism and ridicule.
There is nothing new about this. It is only new to America. During the
decline of the Roman Empire their emerged self-proclaimed hedonistic
philosophers, orgies were common place, "honor" the prized personal possessing
of a Roman all these and more were rare and ridiculed in those who refused to
drop "respectability." The Empire finally ended with Emperors who were
perverse and crazed out of their mind. The last one burned Rome to the ground
so he could "redecorate." Meanwhile, brutal barbarians simply began to take
over. The generals were so corrupt and such party animals by now that the
once awesome Roman army just fell easily before the Vandals and Visigoths, who
were so backward and ignorant that they turned the great libraries of the
Roman empire into party firewood.
In the end, the Great Persians, The amazing Greek City states, the
powerful European noble families, the Roman Empire and many other success
stories, fell into senseless and petty bickering, arguing and fighting and
their leaders destroyed each other over pointless issues as our republicans
and democrats love to do to each other today. What is left of Persia today?
Iraq. The great Greek City states of Sparta and Athens? The third world,
chaotic nation Greece. The Roman Empire? The little city state Rome. What
about the great Turkish Empire? The Babylonians who worked out the zero and
tens place, the originators of geometry? The list is long.
The challenge before us is to see if we can figure out how to survive
success. I think it very possible. The first step it for us to do something
no people has done before, namely recognize that this is the job before us --
we must figure out how to survive success. There are some American families
who have figured this out. The Rockefeller, Lily, Forbes, Revlon and several
others. Or, so it seems to me
Tim B.
Beth Bilynskyj
At 08:33 AM 5/14/98 EDT, you wrote:
A major problem, I think, is that people have not learned how to
>survive success. If you consider the history of successful cultures, none of
>them survived success.
>Look at Greece for example. The birth place of democracy. The birth
place of
>modern Western art, theater and philosophy. The birth place of science. The
>Greek City states fell before the birth of Christ and Greece has been a mess
>since. They still have not managed to recover democracy. Their history if
>rife with civil war, political instability, poverty and so forth.
Interesting. "Their history if rife with civil war, political instability,
poverty and so forth." The same thing could be said of God's own people,
Israel/ Judah.
It looks to me, yet again, that there must be a different definition of
success operating here that what will truly be "successful"--i.e., give us
joy.
> The challenge before us is to see if we can figure out how to survive
>success. I think it very possible. The first step it for us to do something
>no people has done before, namely recognize that this is the job before us --
>we must figure out how to survive success. There are some American families
>who have figured this out. The Rockefeller, Lily, Forbes, Revlon and several
>others.
"My kingdom is not of this world." Thank God, for the kingdoms of this
world--including our own nation--were never meant to satisfy us. Democracy
is certainly a good thing; but it is not the best thing.
The Rockefellers, Lilys, Revlons etc. cannot give me eternal life, and
that is the only success I will settle for. Others have different
definitions, but it seems to me that Jesus spoke the truth when he said, "I
am the bread of life. He who believes in me will never by thirsty...For my
Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him
shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
In Christ,
Beth