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's get placed here -->XReplies JPGrout Jun 05, 2003 08:43am #1Rob I am not going to say that what you are proposing is not feasible ,it is. What I would like to tell you is how we built up stiles in a door shop. The process was similar except we had ####pressing jig that would do about six stiles at a timemade out of steel. The frame was three 1/4" x 4" channel iron welded boxes bolted to the floor with two piece of 1/4" x 6" x6" square tubing. above the top piece of square tube we had three 1 1/4" acme threaded screws (these were adjustable feet used on scaffolding). Use was straight forward you glued the stiles together seated the top beam on the stack and then ran the screws down tight.. there wasn't a lot of room between the frame members so we had a cheater pipe we could turn the nuts with and a 3 lbs. hammer to use when the cheater pipe got in the way of the frame. Then we let them cure for a minimum of two hours and started the next set. We used regular tightbond 2 glue ( when it was hot and humid we would thin the glue about 3% by volume to extend the open time a bit). Two people working together could do 6 stiles in about six minutes if they worked together. I could do six by myself in about 10 minutes which seemed to be the outside limit before you had the glue presetting.
Then I started playing with vacuum pressing on large flat panels (door skins) and I realized that you could do the same process with a vacuum bag and a high vacuum pump for a lot less investment than that mechanical press.
If I were you I would investigate the Vacuum pressing angle. I think that you will be very pleased with the end result and the cost is not all that bad. I bought a 48" x120" bag 30 mil vinyl for about 150 dollars and the vacuum came from ebay for about 150 more. I added a vacuum chamber and a way to evacuate the bag quickly to start with using a shop vac and an automatic vacuum gauge to turn the vac on and off for another 100 dollars. So for around 400 bucks I built a press that is for more versatile than the mechanical press and we had 400 in the iron and had to pay to have the welding done which tripled the price. Think about it and if you want to pursue this avenue I could give you more info. I pretty much know every thing there is to know to do this (except the math part but I know where to find the numbers)and will gladly share.
I am very familiar with the metal work that you described (I used to work in a machine shop) and it sounds like the press was a very serious one. But I think that a metal press for me would be going too far.
Having said that, I still need to get these boards glued. So, yes I am interested to hear more about the vacuum stuff as I know absolutely nothing about it (where to get the bag, the pump, how it all works, etc....). And furthermore.... math? What math do you speak of (is this the clamping force to get the glue to properly hold?)? Clearly there is something that I don't know about and am very glad that I asked my question as I may get a little more insight from people who know.
I was just curious to know why this approach was being contemplated, Joe. It wouldn't normally be my first choice because of the extra work involved perhaps leading to extra cost. Face gluing wide stock together doesn't necessarily lead to a more stable end result-- I've seen plenty of failures as a result of this technique over the decades. It might lead to additional stability, but if done incorrectly, it might not.
Then you also have the problem of presenting a glue line and change of grain orientation to the viewer in the finished product, and how is that to be dealt with? Just some questions or potential problems that immediately flashed through my mind on first reading the question.
Given what Rob has since said in reply, I concur with you that investing in a bag press is possibly the way to go-- about US$400 to $500 should buy a good working system (plus the cost of setting up a station where the job is to be done) but some money might need to be set aside for replacement bag vinyl(sp?) particularly as he has 'millions' of them to do, ha, ha. I can easily see a total real investment of $2,000-- $3,000 in time, materials, and equipment to set up a vacuum bag station.
I'd also suggest considering use of a non-creeper such as urea formaldehyde as the glue rather than a PVA type, but the problem with that is a longer set up time, which can be reduced by applying heat, which requires yet further investment in equipment.
On the other hand, if there are really that many to do, I'd investigate different glue options, ones that can be cured in a few minutes, such as the thermal assisted setting alluded to above, or a cure kicked off with an electric current. Both might aid faster throughput and more efficient use of time. Set against that of course would be the significant initial financial investment that might have to be recouped in the profits of this one job. On the other hand the real cost of the investment in the equipment might be recoverable over many similar such jobs, or by branching out and offering veneering services and bent lamination expertise, for example. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
Richard I suppose that a lot of what Rob is going through is typical in door construction The problem I always ran into was getting stock that was thick enough, wide enough ,clear enough on two sides and straight enough to get the end product out of. When you order a 1500 BF unit of material knowing you need say 100 stiles for 50 doors, I can almost assure you that you will not meet all the above criteria. This seems to be the way that most door companies are going anyway, or at least some version of this. I have seen laminated cores with thick veneered skins, back to back glue ups as Rob is trying and even 3/4" plywood integrated into a dodoed core all at an attempt to build stable straight stiles. I agree about the urea glue except for the time factor and quite frankly the electrically cured joints is beyond the means of most. I have seen the equipment and I am impressed but find it hard to justify short of doing 1,000,000 glueups, Ha Ha. Rob is in a not so unique situation anymore. I myself am bidding a table that calls for 5" wide by 6" select alder for the leg bases and I know absolutely positively that I am going to have to get creative because the material is not cut into those dimensions and if they did It would not be stable enough. And I do not have 3 or 4 years to wait. It is unforunate but what are you going to do?
Gluing doors is not as hard as it may seem the trick is to start flat and keep it that way. I built doors off of well situated sawhorses and had no problems as long as the horse were on the same plane. To get them right I used the stiles for the door to make them parallel and it worked fine. You should oppose two clamps at each major rail and three at the bottom. I agree that you ought to have decent clamps for glue ups. I used 3/4" pony clamps for years and while they weren't Bessey's they were quite serviceable.
After clamping a door I always set a straight edge across the door to make sure that the stiles were in alignment with the door. There were times when one of the clamps was not very tight. and the opposing one was real tight I never figured out why that was, but it didn't seem to affect the finished unit.
I am not sure how thick you intend to finish your stock to prior to gluing but if you keep the stock about 1 1/2" and then joint and plane you will be able to save at least part of the stiles that twist. It is a sort of art to get the parts the way you want but if you oppose the growth rings and get the bows to oppose each other you will have a 95% return of straight stiles all other things considered. It seemed to be the best way to accomplish this process.
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