Witness ETN website ---- New Title, was E-Mail Foul-up Correction

[Robert Walter]

Dave and others,

Maybe you could post this as a discussion somewhere and direct everyone there?

The deed is done.

VISIT: http://groups.google.com/group/ETPer      
CLICK ON Discussions

I am not going to make an ETP post about this. You may?

Bob Walter

http://groups.google.com/group/ETPer   Owner and looking for managers

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dave Scotese <dsco...@litmocracy.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: E-Mail Foul-up Correction
To: DennisG...@aol.com
Cc: Robert Walter <bwalter.b...@gmail.com>, lawson.bj@gmail.com


Hi Dennis,

Nice to meet you.  I am hoping that you could direct me to some evidence of what you said about "very little government": "Unfortunately when there is very little government to regulate individual people as well as companies they tend to use their power to create monopolies to reduce or eliminate competition as well as run their business any way they want  and spoil the land, water and air."

From what I've seen, the monopolies that exist were created through the use of laws, often created specifically to benefit a particular industry.  And the biggest roadblocks to competition are regulatory.  The Fed is the best example of this, and also happens to bear the most responsibility for the mess we're in these days.  I'm always looking for evidence that could change my mind.

Bucky,
I'm too lazy to try to adjust the list to remove everyone who asked to be removed, so feel free to forward my email on to anyone interested that I didn't include.  Maybe you could post this as a discussion somewhere and direct everyone there?

Dave.

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 7:16 AM, <DennisG...@aol.com> wrote:

To all:

 

Most libertarians like  lassiez faire capitalism and government.  Unfortunately when there is very little government to regulate individual people as well as companies they tend to use their power to create monopolies to reduce or eliminate competition as well as run their business any way they want  and spoil the land, water and air.  How would voluntary safety regulations of any kind work?  I once knew a libertarian that declared all air lines should be self regulated including air safety requirements. Who would want to fly on a craft where a company makes the decisions on your safety according to their bottom line?  Their is an old saying a lock just keeps the honest people out of a place they are not supposed to be.   

 

China is a good example of a large country that has found it's way into a good deal of lassiez faire capitalism.  They are doing a great job of poisoning their air and spoiling the land and water that is killing the fish they used to eat and poisoning people who have wells.   

 

The earth has six and a half billion people on.  The United States has officially 300 million but I think it is far greater than that as we will find out after next year.  This is not the old west this is a big country with a growing population and as you can pick up any paper or read on the internet you can see how many people are willing to rob or even kill you for anything you have. Demographers has estimated the United States could easily grow to 400 million people by 2050.  Does anyone here think this will be a more peaceful land with 100 million more people and less government by then?  

 

 

 

 In a message dated 10/26/2009 12:04:42 A.M. Central Daylight Time, dsco...@litmocracy.com writes:

BJ et al.,

I agree with what you've written.  I just wanted to mention a graph someone showed me many years ago.  It has an axis from left to right, but it also has a vertical axis with zero government intervention on the bottom and totalitarian government on the top.  Supposedly, each of us lies somewhere on that graph, more or less to the right or left, but also wanting more or less government control.  I happen to be very near the bottom.

What strikes me about this graph is that at the bottom, since there is very little government to make everyone conform, it really doesn't matter whether you're on the left or the right.  We can all cooperate at the bottom of the graph because we leave each other free to choose how to go about our lives.  If that's where most of us were, each of us would migrate one way or the other because when we saw better results from someone's activities "over there" then we'd move left or right toward them.  Up higher on the axis, the diversity of choices we can explore openly is necessarily constrained by laws.

The same guy that introduced me to that graph with two axes also introduced Austrian Economics to me.  I consider it our job now to make more people aware of the vertical axis and the great advances we can make when we are truly free (at the bottom of that axis).

Dave.

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 7:00 PM, BJ Lawson <lawson.bj@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all -- I sent the below to Robert regarding Moore's suggestions:

Hi Robert --

The "public banking option" as explained by Moore, while not any worse than the current Federal Reserve scheme, leaves a lot to be desired.

My personal belief based on the study of Austrian economics and history is that we need monetary choice, and monetary freedom. A public banking option with a debt-free fiat currency *can* be a choice, but will *not* be an improvement if we suffer under legal tender laws and are coerced into using it.

A free market for money that allows currencies to compete on their own merits would be far preferable. Precious metals would certainly play a role in such an economy, as would government paper (subject to people's willingness to accept it voluntarily). Importantly, local barter-based alternatives reflecting local needs and resources would also arise -- such as agricultural commodities, for example.

I've not seen Moore's film either, but it seems he's mistaken corporatism for capitalism :-/

Cheers,
BJ

I'm excited that we're finally reaching a point that the so-called "left" and "right" are beginning to see that we're both on the same team, and fighting a common enemy. Folks "from" the right like me identify with Dr. Ron Paul and his book "End the Fed". I have friends "from" the left that identify with David Korten and his book "Agenda for a New Economy", in which Korten defends true market economies as defined by Adam Smith -- not the economic fascism/corporatism under which we live today.

I say "from the right" instead of "on the right" because I've given up trying to describe my conclusions on the establishment's political spectrum.

I strongly agree with Moore and others that we need to take our money out of TARP-swilling banks like B of A, Citi, Chase etc. and look for local banks/credit unions and principled alternatives.

BJ Lawwson

On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 11:27 PM, Robert Walter <bwalter.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you, Dave. and all who are reading this.
Appreciate your "this" links.

You are concerned with the power of government.
I am concerned that the government to me seems to be owned by the central/investment bankers who are the owners of the Federal Reserve.
Here is link to ETP article related to thoughts on this
(http://www.e-thepeople.org/article/7938101/view?viewtype=best.) Also I have been following Ron Paul's "Audit the Fed" and "Abolish the Fed" bills.

Don't know how I want to steer discussion.
 I appreciate Moore's writing for it's hopefulness that grass roots, lobbying Congress by individuals can be effective ---- wish I could feel more optimistic*.
 I appreciate Ellen Brown and Ron Paul for articulateness about the monetary system, .....
*the lay of the land is still as was disclosed by this article.

On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Dave Scotese <dsco...@litmocracy.com> wrote:

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the article.  I found a few things I agree with:

• starting your own media (Hey look!  You and I are doing that right now!)
• boycotting banks (and businesses) that took bailout money (let's have a list, and this might be a good start - and while we're at it, how about all companies that take government contracts for government activities that you feel are not constitutional - this might help identify some)
• Take care of yourself and your family

Everything else, at least for me, puts too much power into the hands of the government and expects too much from the government.  I find that Mr. Moore's suggestions usually have these two problems.  He may not understand that the same good reason that makes counterfeiting illegal should also make fiat money illegal (and that, if the government were thus forced to live within the means of the people who fund it, the cost of his suggestions would be prohibitive).  Or he may just be playing to the crowd who shares the socioeconomic outlook into which they were indoctrinated without being critical of it.

Dave.

On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Robert Walter <bwalter.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

I mean to merely call your attention to this e-mail I received:
"Here is my latest post --

"Michael Moore supports the public banking option"
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Michael-Moore-supports-the-by-Ellen-Brown-091023-927.html

Best wishes, Ellen"

Bob Walter
Bucky on ETP
Organizer Rochester Environment Meetup Group
Robert James Walter on Facebook

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