Is Usenet really making a comeback?

[Borax Man]

I've come across some articles here and there which seem to suggest
(implicitly or explicitly) that Usenet, and older tech in general is
making a comeback.

https://medevel.com/why-usenet-is-making-a-comeback-in-the-modern-internet-age/

The Gentoo article on Usenet here also suggests a growth in the
Fediverse and Usenet. I've come across Web 1.0 pages which seem to
eschew the bloated modern web and return to the simple hand-created
web-pages again. It was quite interesting to find a whole new rabbit
hole of Web 1.0 sites, link directories and web rings. We also have
Gemini, though I think that has somewhat stalled.

https://thedebrief.org/tech-workers-rebel-against-a-lame-ass-internet-by-bringing-back-geocities-style-webrings/

I myself have created a simple Website at boraxman.strangled.net and
come back to Usenet, though I wasn't much of contributor back in the
2000s when I first used it. I'm back here because I was interested in
the technology, having moved to using IRC after just feeling
disillusioned with Discord, and the general trend towards monopolised
platforms for everything.

I'm sure some here would have similar experience, but I'm wondering
whether this is an actual trend, or just wishful thinking. May we see
an end to the current state of the web and a shift back to lighter
webpages with simpler engineering? There are writings on it, but I'm
curious whether this is a small niche shift, or perhaps part of
something larger. Are people getting sick and tired of the web today?

I think there is something deeply missing, the personal homepage, the
place on the internet we can call our own. This is something where
the demand is not really being filled (Facebook does NOT count), so I
can see it as something real.

Just wanted to see what other peoples observations are.

[Marco Moock]

Am 24.11.2023 um 09:32:32 Uhr schrieb Borax Man:

> I've come across some articles here and there which seem to suggest
> (implicitly or explicitly) that Usenet, and older tech in general is
> making a comeback.

It seems that it does a little bit, many new users registrated an
account on E-S, see the stats:

https://www.eternal-september.org/userstats.php

Although, in the groups I read, I don't see much traffic of new people.

[End Of Line]

I am from that new ones :-) Yeah, spam is putting them a little off -
pl.soc.polityka (polish politics channel) is being spammed very of often
that's why they partially moved to soc.culture.polish. Also they are not
so thrilled to use usenet clients, they would like to use web clients
that's why they refuse switching to es

[John McCue]

End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 11:02:51 +0100, Marco Moock wrote:
>
>> Am 24.11.2023 um 09:32:32 Uhr schrieb Borax Man:
>>

<snip>

Thanks for the articles.

> I am from that new ones :-) Yeah, spam is putting them a little
> off - pl.soc.polityka (polish politics channel) is being spammed
> very of often that's why they partially moved to soc.culture.polish

(With my tin-foil hat on) It almost makes me wonder if google is
letting this spam go through on purpose :)

There are ways to filter the spam in many news readers, see the
Filters Section in:

http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/filters_bg.html

But the filtering in tin does not work, this does work in tin
for me:

group=*
case=0
score=kill
msgid_last=*<*@googlegroups.com>*

> Also they are not so thrilled to use usenet clients, they would
> like to use web clients that's why they refuse switching to es

No surprise here, but thunderbird can be setup to read USENET,
I think that may meet their needs. To me it seem rather nice.

--
[t]csh(1) - "An elegant shell, for a more... civilized age."
- Paraphrasing Star Wars

[End Of Line]

On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 14:13:55 +0000, John McCue wrote:

> (With my tin-foil hat on) It almost makes me wonder if google is letting
> this spam go through on purpose :)

Yeah, seems like google bought dejanews only for bootstrapping their
search and let it rot for years. However, it makes me wonder how it's
possible to spam it through google groups: won't captcha activate itself
when too many requests from the given user?

[Sn!pe]

End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com> wrote:

One would think so, if the ordinary means of access was used.

OTOH [dons tinfoil hat] a powerful organisation might have
an alternative method of access to Google Groups.

Q: Given that Usenet is a distributed "uncensorable" channel
for free speech, what sort of organisation might want to make
it unusable?

A: An organisation that is determined to control all information
and disinformation.

Q: What sort of organisation might that be?

A: A Three Letter Acronym, e.g. PRC; USA; WHY?

Q: How might making Usenet unusable be achieved?

A: By swamping it with spam, thus making it difficult for existing
Usenetters and impossible for new Usenet users (refugees from
highly-controlled web forums) to use.

[doffs tinfoil hat, removes tongue from cheek]

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator.
My pet rock Gordon just is.

Google Groups articles not seen unless poster is whitelisted.

[Ray Banana]

Thus spake End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com>

Please keep in mind that Google Groups are set up as mailing lists with
a mail2news gateway in the background, so it's not necessary to use the
crappy web frontend.

--
Пу́тін — хуйло́
http://www.eternal-september.org

[candycanearter07]

On 11/24/23 09:11, Sn!pe wrote:
> End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 14:13:55 +0000, John McCue wrote:
>>
>>> (With my tin-foil hat on) It almost makes me wonder if google is letting
>>> this spam go through on purpose :)
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, seems like google bought dejanews only for bootstrapping their
>> search and let it rot for years. However, it makes me wonder how it's
>> possible to spam it through google groups: won't captcha activate itself
>> when too many requests from the given user?
>>
>
> One would think so, if the ordinary means of access was used.
>
> OTOH [dons tinfoil hat] a powerful organisation might have
> an alternative method of access to Google Groups.
>
> Q: Given that Usenet is a distributed "uncensorable" channel
> for free speech, what sort of organisation might want to make
> it unusable?
>
> A: An organisation that is determined to control all information
> and disinformation.
>
> Q: What sort of organisation might that be?
>
> A: A Three Letter Acronym, e.g. PRC; USA; WHY?
>
> Q: How might making Usenet unusable be achieved?
>
> A: By swamping it with spam, thus making it difficult for existing
> Usenetters and impossible for new Usenet users (refugees from
> highly-controlled web forums) to use.
>
> [doffs tinfoil hat, removes tongue from cheek]
>

Hopefully not, but you never know.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

[Borax Man]

You know, I think there may actually be something to this. I can't
help but think that technologies which aren't monopolised platforms
are being deliberately hobbled so people do move to platforms.

For example, my ISP seems to be making email worse and worse. I
called them about the problem and they said they didn't support the
use of email clients, only the webmail.

--

[Borax Man]

It got revealed just recently, that one of the major 4 banks in
Australia (ANZ), instructed staff to dissuade people from using in
branch services. They were deliberately hobbling the service people
got in branches, and the ATMs, so they could then say to the public
"see, people are choosing not to use ATM's and branches, and do their
banking online". Whistleblowers revealed they were actually
instructed to make things difficult for customers in a way to sway
them to online banking.

So, I wouldn't put it past companies to do things like this.

--

[Daniel65]

Sn!pe wrote on 25/11/23 2:11 am:

> End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 14:13:55 +0000, John McCue wrote:
>>
>>> (With my tin-foil hat on) It almost makes me wonder if google is letting
>>> this spam go through on purpose :)
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, seems like google bought dejanews only for bootstrapping their
>> search and let it rot for years. However, it makes me wonder how it's
>> possible to spam it through google groups: won't captcha activate itself
>> when too many requests from the given user?
>>
>
> One would think so, if the ordinary means of access was used.
>
> OTOH [dons tinfoil hat] a powerful organisation might have
> an alternative method of access to Google Groups.
>
> Q: Given that Usenet is a distributed "uncensorable" channel
> for free speech, what sort of organisation might want to make
> it unusable?
>
> A: An organisation that is determined to control all information
> and disinformation.
>
> Q: What sort of organisation might that be?
>
> A: A Three Letter Acronym, e.g. PRC; USA; WHY?
>
> Q: How might making Usenet unusable be achieved?
>
> A: By swamping it with spam, thus making it difficult for existing
> Usenetters and impossible for new Usenet users (refugees from
> highly-controlled web forums) to use.
>
> [doffs tinfoil hat, removes tongue from cheek]
>

Puts "Dunce" hat on!

Q. Why would Google Groups be trying to 'swamp' UseNet groups with
SPAM?? .... given that Google Groups carries all these groups as well.
If Google Groups SPAM does kill UseNet, wouldn't that, effectively, kill
Google Groups as well??

Or would Google then, magically, develop the tools required to rid GG of
all that SPAM?? ... for sale to you for a couple of bucks a month, maybe!
--
Daniel

[Sn!pe]

<tongue in cheek>

Where did I say that Google Groups is the perpetrator? I imagine that
GG might claim "common carrier" status. In that case they would be an
innocent tool abused by a bad actor (hypothetically even a TLA), only
guilty of inertia in doing nothing about that abusive nuisance. If such
a bad actor is indeed a TLA, isn't a spam flood campaign an excellent,
plausibly deniable, cover?

If Google is indeed the perpetrator (IMO doubtful): as far as the risk
of GG spam killing GG itself is concerned, given that Google Groups is
an insignificant part of the Googlesphere, why would Google even care?

</tic>

Obviously all of this is hypothetical, just shooting the breeze.
It's fun to explore imagined scenarios though, innit?

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator.
My pet rock Gordon just is.

Google Groups articles not seen here unless poster is whitelisted.

[candycanearter07]

But aren't some things intentionally impossible to do online? Like
account cancelling and stuff.

[candycanearter07]

On top of that, Usenet is only a part of GG, so it's double
insignificant. They could absolutely claim that they had no idea it was
even happening (if the complaint emails are ignored).

<snip>

[Borax Man]

On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 09:29:41 -0600

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:

> On 11/24/23 17:32, Borax Man wrote:
> > On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 13:24:30 -0600

[..snip..]

> > candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
> > It got revealed just recently, that one of the major 4 banks in
> > Australia (ANZ), instructed staff to dissuade people from using in
> > branch services. They were deliberately hobbling the service people
> > got in branches, and the ATMs, so they could then say to the public
> > "see, people are choosing not to use ATM's and branches, and do their
> > banking online". Whistleblowers revealed they were actually
> > instructed to make things difficult for customers in a way to sway
> > them to online banking.
> >
> > So, I wouldn't put it past companies to do things like this.
> >
>
> But aren't some things intentionally impossible to do online? Like
> account cancelling and stuff.
> --
> user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom
>

https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/banking/whistleblower-alleges-anz-is-deliberately-pushing-customers-out-of-branches/news-story/8e359187d61ca1ad77552db45fc47168

Yes, its a bit of both. I had to go in branch to remove myself as a
signatory. Banks take potential fraud quite seriously, so for certain
things, they want to ensure the identity of the person who is making
account changes.

But for most other stuff, this bank, and I sould strongly suspect
others, are trying to steer people away from cash. Australian's tend
not to use cash much, and banks here are cutting back on cash
withdrawals. They're making it harder to use cash to push people to
digital.

But thats by the bye. The point is that Big Tech has no motive to
support technologies like this one, where people can be independent of
a platform or monopoly, and I wouldn't be suprised if there were many
who were seeking to undermine things like Usenet, email so we move
towards the controlled, monopolised platforms.

Part of the reason I have a renewed interest, is to avoid those
technological shackles.

--

[Siri Cruise]

Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

> Borax Man <rotf...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> I've come across some articles here and there which seem to suggest
>> (implicitly or explicitly) that Usenet, and older tech in
>> general is
>> making a comeback.
>

> It never went away.
> Many (most?) users just moved away to flashier but crappier
> systems, and
> many (most?) isp's discontinued their nntp servers, but thanks to Ray
> Banana and some other people, Usenet has been alive and kicking
> all that
> time.

I saw people whining about Musked Twxtter about things usenet
solved years ago. Those who cannot learn from history are forced
to use beta versions.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.2 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

[yeti]

Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> writes:

> I saw people whining about Musked Twxtter about things usenet solved
> years ago. Those who cannot learn from history are forced to use beta
> versions.

Not surprisingly in Mastodon too.

--
1. Hitchhiker 0: (5) Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd
all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first
place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and
that no one should ever have left the oceans.

[Daniel65]

candycanearter07 wrote on 26/11/23 2:32 am:

Yeap!!
--
Daniel

[candycanearter07]

On 11/25/23 23:20, yeti wrote:
> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> I saw people whining about Musked Twxtter about things usenet solved
>> years ago. Those who cannot learn from history are forced to use beta
>> versions.
>
> Not surprisingly in Mastodon too.
>

Mastodon is interesting, but I don't really like that style of social media.

[yeti]

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> writes:

> On 11/25/23 23:20, yeti wrote:
>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> I saw people whining about Musked Twxtter about things usenet solved
>>> years ago. Those who cannot learn from history are forced to use beta
>>> versions.
>> Not surprisingly in Mastodon too.
>>
>
> Mastodon is interesting, but I don't really like that style of social
> media.

I was curious about mastodon.el and there is an instance emacs.ch, so
that looked like a good match. Two times before I tried Mastodon via
only FF and killed those accounts again after a short time like before
with GNUSocial, Diaspora, Identica and other FOSSy social media. Now
with mainly using mastodon.el, ignoring the global timeline, not
following people but only tags instead, I kind of survived over a year
there, but the fact that I spend more time in GNUS with news than in
Mastodon still is a statement on its own. Mastodon and peers just does
not fit focused discussions as well as mailing lists (GMANE, GWENE) and
news. The lack of something like newsgroups is not compensated by tags
and those aren't even supported by all the subtypes of nodes that
federate. I don't think that Fediverse has a great future. Whose idea
was that global federation with nodes of different feature sets (not
only about tags and markup)?

Mastodon, NNTP and GNUS:

Ideas to add Mastodon support to GNUS showed up as well as a Mastodon to
NNTP gateway, but I'm not uptodate about their progress.

--
1. Hitchhiker 25: (59) Scarcely pausing for breath, Vroomfondel shouted,
"We don't demand solid facts! What we demand is a total absence of solid
facts. I demand that I may or may not be Vroomfondel!"

[Siri Cruise]

candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 11/25/23 23:20, yeti wrote:
>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> I saw people whining about Musked Twxtter about things usenet
>>> solved
>>> years ago. Those who cannot learn from history are forced to
>>> use beta
>>> versions.
>>
>> Not surprisingly in Mastodon too.
>>
>
> Mastodon is interesting, but I don't really like that style of
> social media.

This Mac is Cyrillic friendly in UTF8, so let's mount a mass
invasion on Telegram. Imagine KGB trying to keep track of all the
out of Russia usenet spammers! We will jam them up.

https://youtu.be/XNdcQmGeOkY?t=553
(With she's so lovely A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum)

https://youtu.be/XNdcQmGeOkY?t=835
(With Gestapo from Where Eagles Dare)

[Daniel65]

yeti wrote on 28/11/23 3:48 am:

Hey, yeti, your recent sig files seems just part of a much larger file ....

> 1. Hitchhiker 0: (5) Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd
> all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first
> place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and
> that no one should ever have left the oceans.

and ....

> 1. Hitchhiker 25: (59) Scarcely pausing for breath, Vroomfondel
> shouted, "We don't demand solid facts! What we demand is a total
> absence of solid facts. I demand that I may or may not be
> Vroomfondel!"

Where did you get these HHGG scenes from, please??
--
Daniel

[Borax Man]

The problem is they are trailing a bad idea. Social Media is a pretty
crappy communication platform, lack of proper threads, difficulty
going back in time, its just a place to "consume" someones latest
thoughts and thats it.

To be honest, I haven't looked into Mastodon much, but my cursory
examination led to me to think it had similar flaws to Social Media
like Facebook and Twitter.

Its kind of wierd to think we solved these problems in the 80s and
90s, and people are still struggling to get it right.

[yeti]

I could answer ...

'I have the books and just numbered the "verses" manually.'

... , but that would just be a cover up of a cheat.

'I have the books' is true[0], but I found ...

<http://davesource.com/Fringe/Fringe/Entertainment/Books/HitchHikers_Guide_To_The_Galaxy/>

... having them in plain text and let awk number the verses, which I
checked against the real deadwood books then. Unluckily I haven't kept
that script. It must have been a CLI one liner I had not even put into
an own file. *sigh*

I've no automagism to pull out quotes directly from the the indexed holy
books, Im using just some prepared signature snippets (from other
sources too) in my ~/.signature.d directory.

Sometimes I grep the *.txt files for more quotes with a given keyword
and I keep a lot of them as weechat aliases at hand too.

____________

[0]: And therefor I do not feel guilty for having downloaded the plain
text files too.

--
1. Hitchhiker 30: (6) "No," said the old man, "that's just perfectly
normal paranoia. Everyone in the Universe has that."

[yeti]

Borax Man <rotf...@hotmail.com> writes:

> Its kind of wierd to think we solved these problems in the 80s and
> 90s, and people are still struggling to get it right.

This is a good summary of lots of positive comments in the Fediverse
about NNTP and Usenet.

--
I do not bite, I just want to play.

[yeti]

[Daniel65]

yeti wrote on 28/11/23 8:25 pm:

Thank you. Bookmarked for future reference.
--
Daniel

[End Of Line]

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 09:24:16 +0000, yeti wrote:

> Borax Man <rotf...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Its kind of wierd to think we solved these problems in the 80s and 90s,
>> and people are still struggling to get it right.
>
> This is a good summary of lots of positive comments in the Fediverse
> about NNTP and Usenet.

One of problems if length limitation - in Mastodon the default limit is
1000 characters encourages short entries like "lol" etc and prevents
people willing to comment to discuss more in depth. Much easier is to post
some "shocker" image than discuss in full.

[yeti]

End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com> writes:

> One of problems if length limitation - in Mastodon the default limit is
> 1000 characters encourages short entries like "lol" etc and prevents
> people willing to comment to discuss more in depth. Much easier is to post
> some "shocker" image than discuss in full.

No. Or yes. Or it was and is and is not. Schro̎dinger!

The diversity of the message lengths is annoying. Some instances still
only allow the old default of 500 chars, others allow sizes like whole
papers. Guess how you'd feel replying to a 5000++ chars toot
discovering that your instance only allows 500 chars.

So yes. Short message style answers are more common, but the inequality
additionally is repelling.

--
Solid facts do not need 1001 pictures.

[End Of Line]

It's hard to discuss complex things within standard 180 twitter limit.

This is why I am not surprised it turns quickly into toxic cesspool
because it's much easier than writing proper, longer texts requiring more
effort.

That's the advantage usenet has. No limits for text.

[candycanearter07]

Can you send the file? That sounds really cool and it sucks that TB/BB
doesn't have that feature :(

> ____________
>
> [0]: And therefor I do not feel guilty for having downloaded the plain
> text files too.
>

Same, I have the More than Complete collection.

[candycanearter07]

On 11/28/23 07:32, End Of Line wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 13:16:10 +0000, yeti wrote:
>
>> End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> One of problems if length limitation - in Mastodon the default limit is
>>> 1000 characters encourages short entries like "lol" etc and prevents
>>> people willing to comment to discuss more in depth. Much easier is to
>>> post some "shocker" image than discuss in full.
>>
>> No. Or yes. Or it was and is and is not. Schro̎dinger!
>>
>> The diversity of the message lengths is annoying. Some instances still
>> only allow the old default of 500 chars, others allow sizes like whole
>> papers. Guess how you'd feel replying to a 5000++ chars toot
>> discovering that your instance only allows 500 chars.
>>
>> So yes. Short message style answers are more common, but the inequality
>> additionally is repelling.
>
> It's hard to discuss complex things within standard 180 twitter limit.

At least the default is higher on MD?

> This is why I am not surprised it turns quickly into toxic cesspool
> because it's much easier than writing proper, longer texts requiring more
> effort.
>
> That's the advantage usenet has. No limits for text.

Besides people being against Unicode, and attachments being frustrating.

[yeti]

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> writes:

> Can you send the file? That sounds really cool and it sucks that TB/BB
> doesn't have that feature :(

You can download the txt files of the first 4 books from the previously
mentioned URL and I put my changes as diffs into ...

<http://yeti.freeshell.org/trash/xyzzy.tar.gz>

... for some days or a bit longer, but somewhen 2019's spring cleaning
finally has to happen... ;-P

[Sn!pe]

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:

> On 11/28/23 07:32, End Of Line wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 13:16:10 +0000, yeti wrote:
> >
> >> End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> One of problems if length limitation - in Mastodon the default limit is
> >>> 1000 characters encourages short entries like "lol" etc and prevents
> >>> people willing to comment to discuss more in depth. Much easier is to
> >>> post some "shocker" image than discuss in full.
> >>

> >> No. Or yes. Or it was and is and is not. Schro?dinger!

> >>
> >> The diversity of the message lengths is annoying. Some instances still
> >> only allow the old default of 500 chars, others allow sizes like whole
> >> papers. Guess how you'd feel replying to a 5000++ chars toot
> >> discovering that your instance only allows 500 chars.
> >>
> >> So yes. Short message style answers are more common, but the inequality
> >> additionally is repelling.
> >
> > It's hard to discuss complex things within standard 180 twitter limit.
>
> At least the default is higher on MD?
>
> > This is why I am not surprised it turns quickly into toxic cesspool
> > because it's much easier than writing proper, longer texts requiring more
> > effort.
> >
> > That's the advantage usenet has. No limits for text.
>
> Besides people being against Unicode, and attachments being frustrating.

So write in UTF-8 (or simpler) and post your attachment files to a
hosting service (e.g. Dropbox) and put links to them in your articles.
It isn't rocket surgery, just the Usenet way.

[yeti]

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> writes:

> Besides people being against Unicode, and attachments being frustrating.

We should experiment with a new hierarchy ore even multiple hierarchies
to allow more stuff.

Look how e.g. Hackaday via Gwene looks or mailing lists that allow HTML
posts. Except for the museum newsreaders, most newer ones will allow at
least UTF8 and a reasonable subset of HTML and I think it makes sense to
explore them separate hierarchies.

If all else fails, we can do that in an own mesh of news servers even
without needing domains, thanks to Tor.

TL;DR: MESH THE PLANET!

[yeti]

snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:

> So write in UTF-8 (or simpler) and post your attachment files to a
> hosting service (e.g. Dropbox) and put links to them in your articles.
> It isn't rocket surgery, just the Usenet way.

Honey badger ... eeeh NNTP ... don't care!

If Usenet refuses to evolve, we can run own servers. It won't cost more
than an average ARM SBC or thin client to build something based on NNTP
that kind of acts like Fidonet.

[yeti]

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> writes:

> Besides people being against Unicode, and attachments being frustrating.

We should experiment with a new hierarchy ore even multiple hierarchies
to allow more stuff.

Look how e.g. Hackaday via Gwene looks or mailing lists that allow HTML
posts. Except for the museum newsreaders, most newer ones will allow at
least UTF8 and a reasonable subset of HTML and I think it makes sense to

explore them in separate hierarchies.

If all else fails, we can do that in an own mesh of news servers even
without needing domains, thanks to Tor.

TL;DR: MESH THE PLANET!

[Daniel65]

candycanearter07 wrote on 29/11/23 5:03 am:

> On 11/28/23 07:32, End Of Line wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 13:16:10 +0000, yeti wrote:

<Snip>

>>> The diversity of the message lengths is annoying. Some instances
>>> still only allow the old default of 500 chars, others allow sizes
>>> like whole papers. Guess how you'd feel replying to a 5000++
>>> chars toot discovering that your instance only allows 500 chars.
>>>
>>> So yes. Short message style answers are more common, but the
>>> inequality additionally is repelling.
>>
>> It's hard to discuss complex things within standard 180 twitter
>> limit.
>
> At least the default is higher on MD?

Not that I use Twitter, but I thought Elon had uped the max length from
140 char to 280 char.

Ir are 'we' discussing something different??
--
Daniel

[candycanearter07]

Thanks.

[yeti]

Ok...

<http://yeti.freeshell.org/trash/20231129-075959__Blingbling_via_NNTP__a_bit_too_much_for_me.png>
(if gone, try via waybackmachine...)

This already is a bit too much for me! I want a colour kill-switch in
GNUS now, but I still think we should play with this more, maybe just
for being able to define what really is "too much".

--
1. Hitchhiker 11: (40) "I won't enjoy it," said Marvin.

[Anton Ertl]

Daniel65 <dani...@nomail.afraid.org> writes:
>Not that I use Twitter, but I thought Elon had uped the max length from
>140 char to 280 char.

According to
<https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/07/twitter-officially-expands-its-character-count-to-280-starting-today/>,
Twitter increased the limit to 280 characters "today" (in an article
published on 2017-11-07). I don't know if somebody called Elon was
involved.

The effects of this raising of the twitter limit has been studied and
reported in
<https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/30/twitters-doubling-of-character-count-from-140-to-280-had-little-impact-on-length-of-tweets/>.
A well-designed study about Usenet posting statistics might be
interesting, too.

While searching for that, I found articles from 2023-02 that say that
paying users have a new limit of 4000 characters
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2023/02/08/twitter-boosts-character-limit-to-4000-for-twitter-blue-subscribers/>,
and from 2023-04 that the limit for these users was raised to 10000
<https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/14/23683082/twitter-blue-10000-character-limit-bold-italic-features-substack-newsletter>.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed
an...@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html

[Marco Moock]

Am 29.11.2023 um 08:37:39 Uhr schrieb Anton Ertl:

> A well-designed study about Usenet posting statistics might be
> interesting, too.

For de.*, it is available:

http://usenet.dex.de/de.ALL.html

Narkive also has statistics for each group, just look at the right side
when accessing a group.

https://comp.os.linux.misc.narkive.com/

[Siri Cruise]

Usenet can distribute images and videos with MIME and was the
primary method before porn bought all the web sites. But that
takes a lot of bandwidth and disk space especially since usenet
propagation involves a lot more duplication than http. So low cost
servers like ES dropped that. But pay per view servers still carry
all MIME contents.

[Siri Cruise]

[Borax Man]

The problem is a lot of these platforms are created by programmers,
who are trying to solve a "technical" problem, when what really makes
a good discussion forum, is good discussion.

There is nothing to special about Usenet in this regard, except for
the fact it doesn't really hobble your discussion the way more limited
and harder to track places of discussion do.

I look for good discussion, not just to use a technology. Technology
itself means little. Take Gemini, it was full of people talking about
Gemini, wanting others to use the system, but its not Gemini people want,
its good content.


--

[Sn!pe]

Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:

> yeti wrote:
> > snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:
> >
> >> So write in UTF-8 (or simpler) and post your attachment files to a
> >> hosting service (e.g. Dropbox) and put links to them in your articles.
> >> It isn't rocket surgery, just the Usenet way.
> >
> > Honey badger ... eeeh NNTP ... don't care!
> >
> > If Usenet refuses to evolve, we can run own servers. It won't cost more
> > than an average ARM SBC or thin client to build something based on NNTP
> > that kind of acts like Fidonet.
> >
>
> Usenet can distribute images and videos with MIME and was the
> primary method before porn bought all the web sites. But that
> takes a lot of bandwidth and disk space especially since usenet
> propagation involves a lot more duplication than http. So low cost
> servers like ES dropped that. But pay per view servers still carry
> all MIME contents.
>

I'm told that the vast majority of Usenet traffic is binaries these days
and the big commercial servers exist primarily for that binary traffic.
They deal in pr0n and warez; from their point of view, text Usenet is
merely an insignificant hanger-on.

I have also heard it said that, if it were not for the infrastructure
provided specifically to serve that binary traffic, text Usenet could
not survive as a stand-alone service.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator.

My pet rock Gordon just remarked "Klaatu barada nikto".

[Siri Cruise]

yeti wrote:
> We should experiment with a new hierarchy ore even multiple hierarchies
> to allow more stuff.

They already exist as alt.binary.* They were segregated because
our British cousins had to pay more for surprise usenet sex. Then
low cost servers like ES dropped because they took so much space
and by that time that could be accessed cheaper via http.

I suppose we could start a gofundme for Ray to bribe him to let
them on ES.

[Siri Cruise]

yeti wrote:
> We should experiment with a new hierarchy ore even multiple hierarchies
> to allow more stuff.

[Sn!pe]

Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:

> yeti wrote:
> > We should experiment with a new hierarchy ore even multiple hierarchies
> > to allow more stuff.
>
> They already exist as alt.binary.* They were segregated because
> our British cousins had to pay more for surprise usenet sex. Then
> low cost servers like ES dropped because they took so much space
> and by that time that could be accessed cheaper via http.
>

I don't recall E-S ever carrying binaries (other than a tiny subset)
nor did Motzarella before it.

>
> I suppose we could start a gofundme for Ray to bribe him to let
> them on ES.
>

Klaatu barada nikto.

--
^Ď^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator.
My pet rock Gordon just is.

[Siri Cruise]

Sn!pe wrote:
> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> yeti wrote:
>>> We should experiment with a new hierarchy ore even multiple hierarchies
>>> to allow more stuff.
>>
>> They already exist as alt.binary.* They were segregated because
>> our British cousins had to pay more for surprise usenet sex. Then
>> low cost servers like ES dropped because they took so much space
>> and by that time that could be accessed cheaper via http.
>>
>
> I don't recall E-S ever carrying binaries (other than a tiny subset)
> nor did Motzarella before it.
>
>>
>> I suppose we could start a gofundme for Ray to bribe him to let
>> them on ES.
>>
>
> Klaatu barada nikto.
>

Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!

[Sn!pe]

Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]

> > Klaatu barada nikto.
> >
>
> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu!
>

Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.

[candycanearter07]

Thanks, I didn't notice that before.

[candycanearter07]

On 11/29/23 04:11, Borax Man wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 13:32:20 -0000 (UTC)
> End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 13:16:10 +0000, yeti wrote:
>>
>>> End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> One of problems if length limitation - in Mastodon the default limit is
>>>> 1000 characters encourages short entries like "lol" etc and prevents
>>>> people willing to comment to discuss more in depth. Much easier is to
>>>> post some "shocker" image than discuss in full.
>>>
>>> No. Or yes. Or it was and is and is not. Schro̎dinger!
>>>
>>> The diversity of the message lengths is annoying. Some instances still
>>> only allow the old default of 500 chars, others allow sizes like whole
>>> papers. Guess how you'd feel replying to a 5000++ chars toot
>>> discovering that your instance only allows 500 chars.
>>>
>>> So yes. Short message style answers are more common, but the inequality
>>> additionally is repelling.
>>
>> It's hard to discuss complex things within standard 180 twitter limit.
>>
>> This is why I am not surprised it turns quickly into toxic cesspool
>> because it's much easier than writing proper, longer texts requiring more
>> effort.
>>
>> That's the advantage usenet has. No limits for text.
>>
>
> The problem is a lot of these platforms are created by programmers,
> who are trying to solve a "technical" problem, when what really makes
> a good discussion forum, is good discussion.

<snip>

That seems to be a massive issue in the tech space in general. Tech guys
only think of it in terms of specifications and features, when there is
objectively no point in using it. Just look at all the "smart" product
that have come out.

[Anton Ertl]

Both show the number of postings, and in the latter case one currently
sees how misleading that can be (I see no posting about Linux on the
first page, only the spam that has been a discussion topic in recent
times). The time series for de.* is interesting, but it's just one
interesting thing. What I meant was something that looks into the
(non-spam) postings and, e.g., makes a statistics about their length,
and quoting styles (and maybe the correlation with length); and if I
had any time to spend on such a study, I might come up with other
interesting questions and ideas how to evaluate them using such
statistics.

[Anton Ertl]

snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:
>I have also heard it said that, if it were not for the infrastructure
>provided specifically to serve that binary traffic, text Usenet could
>not survive as a stand-alone service.

It seems to me that text Usenet currently lives quite independently of
binary Usenet. If either one dies, the other won't even notice. The
only danger I see is that regulators might want to kill binary Usenet
(because copyright holders lobby for that), and text Usenet becomes
collateral damage of such a regulation.

[Onorio Catenacci]

On 11/28/23 4:04 AM, Borax Man wrote:

>
> Its kind of wierd to think we solved these problems in the 80s and
> 90s, and people are still struggling to get it right.

I'd say (at least in terms of technology) the cycle of people solving
problems, forgetting they're solved and coming up with new solutions to
an already solved problem is a depressingly consistent phenomenon.
Hmm--consistent phenomenon--I think I just coined a new oxymoron.

--
oc

[Onorio Catenacci]

On 11/28/23 7:49 AM, End Of Line wrote:
>
> One of problems if length limitation - in Mastodon the default limit is
> 1000 characters encourages short entries like "lol" etc and prevents
> people willing to comment to discuss more in depth. Much easier is to post
> some "shocker" image than discuss in full.

I'd wager that if you gave people 10,000 characters on twitter and/or
mastodon you'd just find out more quickly that most people just can't
communicate very well.

Yep, subtle discourse is certainly a victim of 240 characters but even
given more characters somehow I think people's wish for definite,
non-nuanced positions would keep most of us from making intelligent
comments anyway.

--
oc

[Onorio Catenacci]

On 11/28/23 1:52 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
> It isn't rocket surgery, just the Usenet way.

No but it may be brain science.

--
oc

[Jesse Rehmer]

On Nov 29, 2023 at 8:21:03 AM CST, "Sn!pe" <Sn!pe> wrote:

> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> yeti wrote:
>>> snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) writes:
>>>
>>>> So write in UTF-8 (or simpler) and post your attachment files to a
>>>> hosting service (e.g. Dropbox) and put links to them in your articles.
>>>> It isn't rocket surgery, just the Usenet way.
>>>
>>> Honey badger ... eeeh NNTP ... don't care!
>>>
>>> If Usenet refuses to evolve, we can run own servers. It won't cost more
>>> than an average ARM SBC or thin client to build something based on NNTP
>>> that kind of acts like Fidonet.
>>>
>>
>> Usenet can distribute images and videos with MIME and was the
>> primary method before porn bought all the web sites. But that
>> takes a lot of bandwidth and disk space especially since usenet
>> propagation involves a lot more duplication than http. So low cost
>> servers like ES dropped that. But pay per view servers still carry
>> all MIME contents.
>>
>
> I'm told that the vast majority of Usenet traffic is binaries these days
> and the big commercial servers exist primarily for that binary traffic.
> They deal in pr0n and warez; from their point of view, text Usenet is
> merely an insignificant hanger-on.
>
> I have also heard it said that, if it were not for the infrastructure
> provided specifically to serve that binary traffic, text Usenet could
> not survive as a stand-alone service.

Current binary traffic is >220TB per day.

Text Usenet would survive if the commercial entities running full feeds went
bye-bye. There are more text-only operations than full feed operations.
Hierarchy administration and (important) control messages are injected through
text-only Usenet servers. (Okay, I believe there are a small number posting
control messages through HighWinds Media, but it is very small compared to the
totality.)

There are a fair number of text Usenet posters/readers using commercial
services, I see a lot of GigaNews and HighWinds Media users posting, and I
assume they are smart enough to find a free text-only server should their
commercial offering disappear.

The same would be true in reverse, if text-only Usenet operators ceased
operations the binary/full feed providers would still be in business. Most of
them do not process control messages and have their systems on auto-pilot
adding any group a user decides to enter into the Newsgroups header, so they
don't depend on the rest of Usenet to offer their service.

GigaNews recently announced they changed hands, supposedly a handful of
employees bought the operation from the owners, and in their announcement on
Reddit mentioned they are working on reviving text-based discussion on Usenet.
It sounds like they are planning to put an app out that is supposed to entice
users back to Usenet for discussion. If it happens, hopefully they expect to
monitor/moderate the service as it will likely turn into a spam injection
point like Google Groups. From the post:

"We’re looking for Unix nerds interested in distributed systems, and software
folks to help us build a discussion-focused mobile/desktop/web app for Usenet
(think bringing back Usenet as the original + decentralized social network."

[Daniel65]

Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:

> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
> [...]
>
>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>

>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
>
> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
>
Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
--
Daniel

[Borax Man]

Like how Elon Musk reinvented the tunnel and train.

I've lost count of how many times someone has said "I think you should
create something that..." and I've just had to point out its already
been done.

I think this is also related to how people throw stuff out all the
time, only to end up buying the same objects again.

[Dan Purgert]

The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.

The second is Dwarvish (from the LOTR books, one of the "big" fight
scenes -- Moria or Helm's Deep, etc.)

Third "feels" Elvish, but not from Tolkien's work. Maybe D&D or a
derivative thereto.


--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

[Borax Man]

On 2023-11-29, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
> On 11/29/23 04:11, Borax Man wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 13:32:20 -0000 (UTC)
>> End Of Line <endof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>

[snip]

>>
>> The problem is a lot of these platforms are created by programmers,
>> who are trying to solve a "technical" problem, when what really makes
>> a good discussion forum, is good discussion.
><snip>
>
> That seems to be a massive issue in the tech space in general. Tech guys
> only think of it in terms of specifications and features, when there is
> objectively no point in using it. Just look at all the "smart" product
> that have come out.

Most people don't care about the technology, just the end result. I'm
kind of the same. For a chat program, the most important thing is
whether I can talk to my friends and family and interesting people,
without having to feel dirty about being monitored. Whether it
encapsulates the messages in XML or JSON or just blocks of text is
irrelevant to me. For email, I just want to send an email. For a TV,
I just want to watch my show. I haven't purchased a smart TV, because
I don't care too much for the shows. The tech means nothing if there
isn't much good to watch.

[Daniel65]

Dan Purgert wrote on 30/11/23 9:22 pm:

> On 2023-11-30, Daniel65 wrote:
>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>>>
>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
>>>
>>> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
>>>
>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
>
> The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.

Don't know them.

> The second is Dwarvish (from the LOTR books, one of the "big" fight
> scenes -- Moria or Helm's Deep, etc.)

Books?? Books!!

> Third "feels" Elvish, but not from Tolkien's work. Maybe D&D or a
> derivative thereto.

Thanks, Dan!! ;-P
--
Daniel

[Sn!pe]

Jesse Rehmer <jesse....@blueworldhosting.com> wrote:

> On Nov 29, 2023 at 8:21:03?AM CST, "Sn!pe" <Sn!pe> wrote:
[...]

Very interesting, thank you, Jesse.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator.

My pet rock Gordon just is.

[Sn!pe]

Dan Purgert <d...@djph.net> wrote:

> On 2023-11-30, Daniel65 wrote:
> > Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
> >> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>
> >>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
> >>>>
> >>>

> >>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu!

> >>>
> >>
> >> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
> >>
> >
> > Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
> >
>
> The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.
>
> The second is Dwarvish (from the LOTR books, one of
> the "big" fight scenes -- Moria or Helm's Deep, etc.)
>
> Third "feels" Elvish, but not from Tolkien's work.
> Maybe D&D or a derivative thereto.
>

Olenyor : To battle
Morwe, grugachye : Die, you feral thing!

<https://dndalley.com/blogs/news/elven-battle-cries>

Arransewes, udshastye!

[candycanearter07]

On 11/30/23 04:14, Borax Man wrote:
> On 2023-11-29, Onorio Catenacci <onorio.ca...@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/28/23 4:04 AM, Borax Man wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Its kind of wierd to think we solved these problems in the 80s and
>>> 90s, and people are still struggling to get it right.
>>
>> I'd say (at least in terms of technology) the cycle of people solving
>> problems, forgetting they're solved and coming up with new solutions to
>> an already solved problem is a depressingly consistent phenomenon.
>> Hmm--consistent phenomenon--I think I just coined a new oxymoron.
>>
>
> Like how Elon Musk reinvented the tunnel and train.
>
> I've lost count of how many times someone has said "I think you should
> create something that..." and I've just had to point out its already
> been done.

The number of times companies have made "train but worse" is wild

> I think this is also related to how people throw stuff out all the
> time, only to end up buying the same objects again.

[Siri Cruise]

Sn!pe wrote:
> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
> [...]
>
>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>>
>>

>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
>>
>
> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.

Hige sceal þē heardra, heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre þē ūre mægen lȳtlað.

Courage should be hardier, keener the heart,
the mind should be more when our might diminishes.

~~ Battle of Maldon

[Siri Cruise]

Vous ne vous suivez jamais! A pox on Quebec!

[Siri Cruise]

Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-11-30, Daniel65 wrote:
>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>>>
>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
>>>
>>> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
>>>
>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
>
> The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.

Originally from the horror movie the Day the Earth Stood Still
where the meat puppet of the robot overlords announce we must
submit to the robots's benevolent psychopathy or be exterminated.

[Dan Purgert]

On 2023-11-30, Siri Cruise wrote:
> Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On 2023-11-30, Daniel65 wrote:
>>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
>>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>>>>
>>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
>>>>
>>>> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
>>>>
>>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
>>
>> The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.
>
> Originally from the horror movie the Day the Earth Stood Still
> where the meat puppet of the robot overlords announce we must
> submit to the robots's benevolent psychopathy or be exterminated.

Oh right, been ages since I saw that one ... group of friends are more
scifi/fantasy nerds (and a lot of that style of "B" movies too)

[Sn!pe]

Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sn!pe wrote:
> > Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >>> Klaatu barada nikto.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
> >>
> >
> > Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
>

> Hige sceal ?? heardra, heorte ?? c?nre,
> m?d sceal ?? m?re ?? ?re mægen l?tla?.
>

I had to go to Howard to read that; alas, olde Newsreaders
are not necessarily good at rendering olde characters.

>
> Courage should be hardier, keener the heart,
> the mind should be more when our might diminishes.
>
> ~~ Battle of Maldon
>

Should be, could be, would be, if only we tried harder.
Might does not always make right and two rights do not
make a wrong.

Left! Left! Left, Right, Left!

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator.
My pet rock Gordon just said "Klaatu barada nikto."

[Adam H. Kerman]

Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>Dan Purgert wrote:
>>On 2023-11-30, Daniel65 wrote:
>>>Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
>>>>Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:

>>>>[...]

>>>>>>Klaatu barada nikto.

>>>>>Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!

>>>>Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.

>>>Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(

>>The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.

>Originally from the horror movie the Day the Earth Stood Still
>where the meat puppet of the robot overlords announce we must
>submit to the robots's benevolent psychopathy or be exterminated.

Not if Patrica Neal says it to Gort! What can possibly go wrong?

[Siri Cruise]

Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-30, Daniel65 wrote:
>>>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
>>>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> [...]
>
>>>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>

>>>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!

>
>>>>> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
>
>>>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
>
>>> The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.
>
>> Originally from the horror movie the Day the Earth Stood Still
>> where the meat puppet of the robot overlords announce we must
>> submit to the robots's benevolent psychopathy or be exterminated.
>
> Not if Patrica Neal says it to Gort! What can possibly go wrong?
>

Robot overlords keep the pretty ones as breeding stock.

[Siri Cruise]

Sn!pe wrote:
> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
>>
>> Hige sceal ?? heardra, heorte ?? c?nre,
>> m?d sceal ?? m?re ?? ?re mægen l?tla?.
>>
>
> I had to go to Howard to read that; alas, olde Newsreaders
> are not necessarily good at rendering olde characters.
>
>>
>> Courage should be hardier, keener the heart,
>> the mind should be more when our might diminishes.
>>
>> ~~ Battle of Maldon
>>
>
> Should be, could be, would be, if only we tried harder.
> Might does not always make right and two rights do not
> make a wrong.
>
> Left! Left! Left, Right, Left!
>

You ain't got no friends on the left!
You're right!
You ain't got no friends on the right!
You're left!
Sound off!
Hound dog!
Hit it again!
Poon tang!
Coon town!
Hound dog!
Poon tang!
Coon town!
I's white!
~~ Firesign Theatre

[Daniel65]

Jukka Lahtinen wrote on 1/12/23 8:07 am:

> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> writes:
>> Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-30, Daniel65 wrote:
>>>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
>>>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>
>>>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
>>>>>
>>>>> Olenyor!  Morwe, grugachye.
>>>>>
>>>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
>>> The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.
>>
>> Originally from the horror movie the Day the Earth Stood Still where
>> the meat puppet of the robot overlords announce we must submit to the
>> robots's benevolent psychopathy or be exterminated.
>

> Yep, and in Evil Dead it was changed to "Klaatu verada nikto".
>
Nope, Google Translate doesn't handle that either .... except changing
the 'v' and 'n' to Capitals!!
--
Daniel

[Daniel65]

Siri Cruise wrote on 1/12/23 2:32 am:

> Daniel65 wrote:
>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>>>
>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
>>>
>>> Olenyor!  Morwe, grugachye.
>>>
>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
>
> Vous ne vous suivez jamais! A pox on Quebec!
>

Google translate .... "You never follow yourself! A pox we quebec!"

Is that close??
--
Daniel

[Siri Cruise]

Check quebec's motto. I meant vous ne vous souvenez jamais.

Je ne suis pas ce que je suis.

[Dan Purgert]

That's not really surprising, given the language was made-up for the
movie(s); much like the below from Lovecraft:

Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fthagn!

(in case digraphs don't make it through -- "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fthagn!")

[Sn!pe]

Daniel65 <dani...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> Jukka Lahtinen wrote on 1/12/23 8:07 am:
> > Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> writes:
> >> Dan Purgert wrote:
> >>> On 2023-11-30, Daniel65 wrote:
> >>>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
> >>>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>> [...]
> >
> >>>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu!

> >>>>>
> >>>>> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
> >>> The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.
> >>
> >> Originally from the horror movie the Day the Earth Stood Still where
> >> the meat puppet of the robot overlords announce we must submit to the
> >> robots's benevolent psychopathy or be exterminated.
> >
> > Yep, and in Evil Dead it was changed to "Klaatu verada nikto".
> >
>
> Nope, Google Translate doesn't handle that either .... except changing
> the 'v' and 'n' to Capitals!!
>

Google Not Omniscient! Shock, Horror, Probe!... News at 11.

--
^Ď^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator.

[Sn!pe]

Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]

> I meant vous ne vous souvenez jamais.
>
> Je ne suis pas ce que je suis.

Je pense, donc je le suis. Au moins, je pense que je le suis...

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator.

[Siri Cruise]

I remember fthagn from Oliver Twist. He corrupted innocent lads to
sacrifice the gentry's corgis to bring about the second coming of
Cromwell.

[Siri Cruise]

I remember fthagn from Oliver Twist. He corrupted innocent lads to
sacrifice the gentry's corgis to bring about the second coming of
Cromwell.

[Daniel65]

Siri Cruise wrote on 2/12/23 2:23 pm:
> Dan Purgert wrote:

<Snip>

>> That's not really surprising, given the language was made-up for
>> the movie(s); much like the below from Lovecraft:
>>
>> Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fthagn!
>>
>> (in case digraphs don't make it through -- "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu
>> fthagn!")
>
> I remember fthagn from Oliver Twist. He corrupted innocent lads to
> sacrifice the gentry's corgis to bring about the second coming of
> Cromwell.
>

WHAT?? "Oliver Twist" --> "Cromwell"?? Don't remember that from the
Stage play I saw 55 years ago!! ;-P
--
Daniel

[Daniel65]

Sn!pe wrote on 2/12/23 2:28 am:

> Daniel65 <dani...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>> Jukka Lahtinen wrote on 1/12/23 8:07 am:
>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-11-30, Daniel65 wrote:
>>>>>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
>>>>>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote: [...]
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those
>>>>>> three. ;-(
>>>>> The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.
>>>>
>>>> Originally from the horror movie the Day the Earth Stood Still
>>>> where the meat puppet of the robot overlords announce we must
>>>> submit to the robots's benevolent psychopathy or be
>>>> exterminated.
>>>
>>> Yep, and in Evil Dead it was changed to "Klaatu verada nikto".
>>
>> Nope, Google Translate doesn't handle that either .... except
>> changing the 'v' and 'n' to Capitals!!
>
> Google Not Omniscient! Shock, Horror, Probe!... News at 11.
>

But!! But!! But we don't get News at 11 ..... A.M. or P.M.!! ;-P
--
Daniel

[Daniel65]

Siri Cruise wrote on 2/12/23 2:02 am:

> Daniel65 wrote:
>> Siri Cruise wrote on 1/12/23 2:32 am:
>>> Daniel65 wrote:
>>>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
>>>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
>>>>>
>>>>> Olenyor!  Morwe, grugachye.
>>>>>
>>>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
>>>
>>> Vous ne vous suivez jamais! A pox on Quebec!
>>>
>> Google translate .... "You never follow yourself! A pox we quebec!"
>>
>> Is that close??
>
> Check quebec's motto. I meant vous ne vous souvenez jamais.

"You never remember." .... You know me too well!

> Je ne suis pas ce que je suis.
>

"I am not what I am." .... O.K., but who am I??
--
Daniel

[Daniel65]

Sn!pe wrote on 2/12/23 2:36 am:

> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
> [...]
>> I meant vous ne vous souvenez jamais.
>>
>> Je ne suis pas ce que je suis.
>
> Je pense, donc je le suis. Au moins, je pense que je le suis...
>

"I think, so I am. At least I think I am ..."

I thought it was supposed to be 'I think, therefore I am!!' .... "Je
pense donc je suis!!"
--
Daniel

[Sn!pe]

Bon sang, Google Translate m'a encore laissé tomber.

[Siri Cruise]

I am not what I follow. 'suis' is ambiguous.

[Siri Cruise]

It's the twist ending in Shyamalan's production.

[Siri Cruise]

Cogito ergo infinite sum--Descartes inventing calculus before Newton.

[Daniel65]

Sn!pe wrote on 3/12/23 3:04 am:

> Daniel65 <dani...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>> Sn!pe wrote on 2/12/23 2:36 am:
>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> I meant vous ne vous souvenez jamais.
>>>>
>>>> Je ne suis pas ce que je suis.
>>>
>>> Je pense, donc je le suis. Au moins, je pense que je le suis...
>>>
>> "I think, so I am. At least I think I am ..."
>>
>> I thought it was supposed to be 'I think, therefore I am!!' ....
>> "Je pense donc je suis!!"
>
> Bon sang, Google Translate m'a encore laissé tomber.
>

Still working for me! ;-P
--
Daniel

[Daniel65]

Siri Cruise wrote on 3/12/23 2:42 pm:

> Daniel65 wrote:
>> Sn!pe wrote on 2/12/23 2:36 am:
>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> I meant vous ne vous souvenez jamais.
>>>>
>>>> Je ne suis pas ce que je suis.
>>>
>>> Je pense, donc je le suis.  Au moins, je pense que je le suis...
>>>
>> "I think, so I am. At least I think I am ..."
>>
>> I thought it was supposed to be 'I think, therefore I am!!' .... "Je
>> pense donc je suis!!"
>
> Cogito ergo infinite sum--Descartes inventing calculus before Newton.
>

"I think, therefore, infinity - Descartes inventing the coal before Newton."

(Oh!! Is that right?? ;-P )

Or in my only non-English ancestrial language - Croatian .... "Mislim da
je, dakle, Infinity - Descartes izmišljajući ugljen pred Newtonom."
--
Daniel

[Daniel65]

Siri Cruise wrote on 3/12/23 2:32 pm:

> Daniel65 wrote:
>> Siri Cruise wrote on 2/12/23 2:02 am:
>>> Daniel65 wrote:
>>>> Siri Cruise wrote on 1/12/23 2:32 am:
>>>>> Daniel65 wrote:
>>>>>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
>>>>>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Olenyor!  Morwe, grugachye.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
>>>>>
>>>>> Vous ne vous suivez jamais! A pox on Quebec!
>>>>>
>>>> Google translate .... "You never follow yourself! A pox we quebec!"
>>>>
>>>> Is that close??
>>>
>>> Check quebec's motto. I meant vous ne vous souvenez jamais.
>>
>> "You never remember." .... You know me too well!
>>
>>> Je ne suis pas ce que je suis.
>>>
>> "I am not what I am." .... O.K., but who am I??
>
> I am not what I follow. 'suis' is ambiguous.
>

.... and, obviously, Google chose the wrong one!!
--
Daniel

[Siri Cruise]

It's an old pun.

[Sn!pe]

Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:

> Daniel65 wrote:
> > Sn!pe wrote on 2/12/23 2:36 am:
> >> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>> I meant vous ne vous souvenez jamais.
> >>>
> >>> Je ne suis pas ce que je suis.
> >>
> >> Je pense, donc je le suis. Au moins, je pense que je le suis...
> >>
> > "I think, so I am. At least I think I am ..."
> >
> > I thought it was supposed to be 'I think, therefore I am!!' ....
> > "Je pense donc je suis!!"
>
> Cogito ergo infinite sum--Descartes inventing calculus before Newton.
>

"Un cheval entre dans un bar. Le barman dit "Vous êtes souvent ici,
pensez-vous que vous avez un problème d'alcool ? »

Le cheval dit : « Je ne pense pas », puis disparaît dans le néant.

C'est à ce moment-là que tous les étudiants en philosophie de la le
public commence à rire, car il est familier avec le discours
philosophique proposition du Cogito ergo sum, ou je pense, donc je
suis. Le philosophie classique proposée par René Descartes.

Mais expliquer le concept d'avance reviendrait à mettre Descartes
avant le cheval."

[Dan Purgert]

That's "Fagan". ;)

[Sn!pe]

Dan Purgert <d...@djph.net> wrote:

> On 2023-12-02, Siri Cruise wrote:
> > Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> On 2023-12-01, Daniel65 wrote:
> >>> Jukka Lahtinen wrote on 1/12/23 8:07 am:
> >>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> writes:
> >>>>> Dan Purgert wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2023-11-30, Daniel65 wrote:
> >>>>>>> Sn!pe wrote on 30/11/23 3:21 am:
> >>>>>>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> [...]
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Klaatu barada nikto.
> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu!

> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Olenyor! Morwe, grugachye.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Google Translate was able to do bugger all with those three. ;-(
> >>>>>> The first is from one of the "Evil Dead" movies.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Originally from the horror movie the Day the Earth Stood Still where
> >>>>> the meat puppet of the robot overlords announce we must submit to the
> >>>>> robots's benevolent psychopathy or be exterminated.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yep, and in Evil Dead it was changed to "Klaatu verada nikto".
> >>>>
> >>> Nope, Google Translate doesn't handle that either .... except changing
> >>> the 'v' and 'n' to Capitals!!
> >>
> >> That's not really surprising, given the language was made-up for the
> >> movie(s); much like the below from Lovecraft:
> >>
> >> Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fthagn!
> >>
> >> (in case digraphs don't make it through -- "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fthagn!")
> >
> > I remember fthagn from Oliver Twist. He corrupted innocent lads to
> > sacrifice the gentry's corgis to bring about the second coming of
> > Cromwell.
>
> That's "Fagan". ;)

<https://youtu.be/MVCYmXiWO5A> 147!

--
^Ď^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator.

[Siri Cruise]

The blasphemous Fagan gods of the Cthulhu Mythos.

[Siri Cruise]

Sn!pe wrote:
> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Daniel65 wrote:
>>> Sn!pe wrote on 2/12/23 2:36 am:
>>>> Siri Cruise <chine...@www.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>> I meant vous ne vous souvenez jamais.
>>>>>
>>>>> Je ne suis pas ce que je suis.
>>>>
>>>> Je pense, donc je le suis. Au moins, je pense que je le suis...
>>>>
>>> "I think, so I am. At least I think I am ..."
>>>
>>> I thought it was supposed to be 'I think, therefore I am!!' ....
>>> "Je pense donc je suis!!"
>>
>> Cogito ergo infinite sum--Descartes inventing calculus before Newton.
>>
>
> "Un cheval entre dans un bar. Le barman dit "Vous êtes souvent ici,
> pensez-vous que vous avez un problème d'alcool ? »
>
> Le cheval dit : « Je ne pense pas », puis disparaît dans le néant.

> Mais expliquer le concept d'avance reviendrait à mettre Descartes
> avant le cheval."

People understand the joke or not. The Wizard of OZ refuted
Dizzycarts with a horse of a different color.

I wonder why they had cranes walking around the set. That's a
weird production detail.