Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
Thank you DAB and Junior@Tioat, for supporting ✼ our right to post
simple, hand·crafted HTML. HTML is not exclusive to Asian spam·bots.
[ ✼: news:ic4sbv$pg4$1...@tioat.net ]
Eternal-September and Aioe still block it, but that's just them;
Google Groups, pay servers and others allow it.
Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
Read selectively, “Plonk” me, that's how it's done.
DAB
> Thank you DAB and Junior@Tioat, for supporting ? our right to post
> simple, hand搾rafted HTML. HTML is not exclusive to Asian spam搓ots.
> [ ?: news:ic4sbv$pg4$1...@tioat.net ]
>
> Eternal-September and Aioe still block it, but that's just them;
> Google Groups, pay servers and others allow it.
>
> Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
> Read selectively, "Plonk" me, that's how it's done.
LOL your welcome! Forget Ray he won't budge.
John Hill
> ?
> Thank you DAB and Junior@Tioat, for supporting ? our right to post
> simple, hand搾rafted HTML. HTML is not exclusive to Asian spam搓ots.
> [ ?: news:ic4sbv$pg4$1...@tioat.net ]
>
> Eternal-September and Aioe still block it, but that's just them;
> Google Groups, pay servers and others allow it.
>
> Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
> Read selectively, "Plonk" me, that's how it's done.
I'm with Ray on this one. I don't want html postings.
--
Please reply to john at yclept dot wanadoo dot co dot uk.
LouB
How does one "selectively" allow HTML?
Mike Yetto
>JeffRelf.F-M.FM <x...@x.Invalid> wrote:
>> ?
>> Thank you DAB and Junior@Tioat, for supporting ? our right to post
>> simple, hand·crafted HTML. HTML is not exclusive to Asian spam·bots.
>> [ ?: news:ic4sbv$pg4$1...@tioat.net ]
>>
>> Eternal-September and Aioe still block it, but that's just them;
>> Google Groups, pay servers and others allow it.
>>
>> Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
>> Read selectively, "Plonk" me, that's how it's done.
>I'm with Ray on this one. I don't want html postings.
And we certainly don't want Jeff Relf's malformed posts on
Usenet.
Mike "major pollutant on news.software.readers" Yetto
--
In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice they are not.
Ken Sims
<x...@x.Invalid> wrote:
>Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
> Read selectively, “Plonk” me, that's how it's done.
1. His server, his rules. (And I happen to like his rules.)
2. Plonk.
--
Ken
Paul
So you've returned from outer space, for a visit ?
USENET makes effective use of text for communications.
It works pretty well. And it's worked pretty well for a long time.
If you want to do "dancing monkey animations" in HTML,
get yourself a blogspot.
Paul
Adam H. Kerman
>Thank you DAB and Junior@Tioat, for supporting our right to post
>simple, hand crafted HTML. HTML is not exclusive to Asian spam bots.
>Eternal-September and Aioe still block it, but that's just them;
>Google Groups, pay servers and others allow it.
>Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
> Read selectively, “Plonk” me, that's how it's done.
You didn't encode Subject, dude.
Steve, perhaps a Cleanfeed filter for Subjects lacking encoded non-ASCII
characters would be a very good idea.
Robert Kent
"Paul" wrote in message news:ic67e6$36t$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
JeffRelf.F-M.FM wrote:
> Thank you DAB and Junior@Tioat, for supporting ? our right to post
> simple, hand搾rafted HTML. HTML is not exclusive to Asian spam搓ots.
> [ ?: news:ic4sbv$pg4$1...@tioat.net ]
>
> Eternal-September and Aioe still block it, but that's just them;
> Google Groups, pay servers and others allow it.
>
> Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
> Read selectively, "Plonk" me, that's how it's done.
So you've returned from outer space, for a visit ?
USENET makes effective use of text for communications.
It works pretty well. And it's worked pretty well for a long time.
If you want to do "dancing monkey animations" in HTML,
get yourself a blogspot.
Paul
-----
What's wrong with supporting a small subset of HTML? Italics, bold,
superscripts, maybe a table or two... Nothing real fancy. Definitely no
dancing monkeys.
Paul
news:ic6ir6$js4$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
What's wrong with learning to quote properly, which is already a
Usenet standard, before trying to add unnecessary and non-standard
fluff which most current newsreaders are not likely to support?
Keep up the good work, Ray.
--
(another) Paul
David Bostwick
Who will be the arbiter of "real fancy"?
Robert Kent
"David Bostwick" wrote in message news:ic6k3s$9dv$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
-----
Put it to a vote?
I suggest just a very few basics:
1. Bold, italic, underline
2. Superscripts and subscripts
3. Tables - with very limited formatting
News servers could be configured to reject all other HTML.
My problem with quoting? I'm currently using Windows Live mail - and
actively looking for a "real" news reader. It's been a few years since I was
actively posting on Usenet.
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
Adam H. Kerman played “the security card” ✼.
[ ✼: news:ic6hv4$rv7$1...@news.albasani.net ]
He wants ·all· HTML banned, even lone < PRE> tags,
because HTML ·could· be bad, somewhere, somehow, to someone.
He can't site one post that “breaks sercurity”, as he claims.
Again, HTML isn't exclusive to evil script kiddies and Asian spam·bots.
Usenet must be read selectively, decide who you want to “Plonk” or not,
servers that do this for you ( e.g. Eternal·September ) are rare.
Google Groups, ISP/pay servers and others allow HTML.
While “ Content-Type: Text/HTML ” posts might contain
simple, typed·out tags like < img> and < PRE> ✼,
“ Content-Type: multipart/alternative ” posts suck.
[ ✼: Use < PRE> for proper indenting, for single·width chars ]
I don't use the plain·text “alternative”;
instead, I convert the HTML “alternative” to plain·text.
Sir Gregory Hall, Esq
news:JeffRelf.F-M.FM@_U0.2010_Nov.19_.11.53.am...
>
> Adam H. Kerman played "the security card" ?.
> [ ?: news:ic6hv4$rv7$1...@news.albasani.net ]
>
> He wants �all� HTML banned, even lone < PRE> tags,
> because HTML �could� be bad, somewhere, somehow, to someone.
Little, baby, insecure, censorship-embracing, anal-retentive, net nanny
losers! Thank God for REAL uncensored NSPs like Altopia.
(follow up to countermanded)
--
Gregory Hall
David Bostwick
And who gets to count the vote? How do we know we can trust him/her/them?
Should we resurrect the UVV? How do we prevent multiple votes? How do we
make every NSP abide by the decision, those autocrats?
(the above is deeply tongue-in-cheek)
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
If you don't like “dancing monkeys” ( e.g. animated GIFs ), plonk anyone who post them ( e.g. me, Jeff Relf )... or ( selectly ) block images.Eternal-September.ORG is one of the ·few· servers that blocks HTML; Google Groups, ISP/pay servers and others allow it. By the way, I think Mozilla ThunderBird is better than Winodws Live Mail; but configuring ThunderBird, fonts and all, is no simple task. Ideally, it'd let you ctrl-mouseWheel ( to zoom ), like FireFox and IE.
reader1
> ???
> Adam H. Kerman played ???the security card??? ???.
> [ ???: news:ic6hv4$rv7$1...@news.albasani.net ]
>
> He wants ·all· HTML banned, even lone < PRE> tags,
> because HTML ·could· be bad, somewhere, somehow, to someone.
>
> Again, HTML isn't exclusive to evil script kiddies and Asian spam·bots.
>
> servers that do this for you ( e.g. Eternal·September ) are rare.
> Google Groups, ISP/pay servers and others allow HTML.
>
> simple, typed·out tags like < img> and < PRE> ???,
> ??? Content-Type: multipart/alternative ??? posts suck.
> [ ???: Use < PRE> for proper indenting, for single·width chars ]
>
> I don't use the plain·text ???alternative???;
> instead, I convert the HTML ???alternative??? to plain·text.
I don't use HTML on my news reader & your stuff is garbage.
Steve Crook
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 11:50:12 -0800, Robert Kent wrote in
Message-Id: <ic6kdf$r11$1...@news.eternal-september.org>:
> I suggest just a very few basics:
>
> 1. Bold, italic, underline
> 2. Superscripts and subscripts
> 3. Tables - with very limited formatting
From a filtering perspective, this means knowing every other HTML tag
and checking the payload for them. In the case of a native HTML post
this means looking in the entire payload. For MIME part, it means
extracting the specific text/html element and just looking in that.
That's quite a complex filter and might well cause problems on some
servers during periods of heavy load. May I suggest the benefit isn't
worth the cost.
Steve Crook
Message-Id: <JeffRelf.F-M.FM@_WF.2010_Nov.18_.8.35.pm>:
> Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
> Read selectively, “Plonk” me, that's how it's done.
Jeff, this isn't anything personal about you. You have as much right to
be heard on Usenet as anyone else. I find myself having to wade through
filter logs for your messages because I *do* want to know what you've
said. Threads lose continuity when a post is missing and nobody
benefits from that.
At the moment, missing posts due to HTML filtering are relatively few
and threads rarely suffer. If HTML is suddenly allowed en masse then
there's a danger that Usenet becomes divided into those who want it and
can read it and those who don't, (or can't). Nothing I've read is
convincing me that allowing HTML on my newsserver is going to improve
the quality of the content or raise the signal-noise ratio.
I'm happy to modify Cleanfeed in such a manner that other admins have
more granular control but I'm not going to strip out all the HTML filter
components because I believe there is still a strong demand for them.
Bast
LouB wrote:
> JeffRelf.F-M.FM wrote:
>> Thank you DAB and Junior@Tioat, for supporting ? our right to post
>> simple, hand搾rafted HTML. HTML is not exclusive to Asian spam搓ots.
>> [ ?: news:ic4sbv$pg4$1...@tioat.net ]
>>
>> Eternal-September and Aioe still block it, but that's just them;
>> Google Groups, pay servers and others allow it.
>>
>> Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
>> Read selectively, "Plonk" me, that's how it's done.
>
> How does one "selectively" allow HTML?
HTML in E-mails & Usenet was probably the main reason for the demise of
newsgroups.
A tool of the devil, and best avoided. Just like Windows 7, and VBR in MP3
files.
Patok
> LouB wrote:
>> JeffRelf.F-M.FM wrote:
>>> Thank you DAB and Junior@Tioat, for supporting ? our right to post
>>> [ ?: news:ic4sbv$pg4$1...@tioat.net ]
>>>
>>> Eternal-September and Aioe still block it, but that's just them;
>>> Google Groups, pay servers and others allow it.
>>>
>>> Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
>>> Read selectively, "Plonk" me, that's how it's done.
>> How does one "selectively" allow HTML?
>
>
> HTML in E-mails & Usenet was probably the main reason for the demise of
> newsgroups.
I don't think so. If anything, its /lack/, because the great unwashed require
dancing monkeys in their mails. I personally don't use HTML in my parcels, but
its presence in others' doesn't bother me.
> A tool of the devil, and best avoided. Just like Windows 7, and VBR in MP3
> files.
You misplet Vista. And there's nothing wrong with VBR in /music/-only MP3.
When it is in the soundtrack of AVI files, then yes, it has drawbacks.
--
You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
--
Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.
Gene Wirchenko
wrote:
Why forget him? Compliment him (for not budging).
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Steve Crook
Message-Id: <JeffRelf.F-M.FM@_Qx.2010_Nov.19_.2.00.pm>:
Jeff, before we get into your post, I'd like to highlight that I've no
idea what most of it relates to because you fail to quote anything.
Usenet convention is to quote the elements of the post you're responding
to.
> Usually, my “ Content-Type: Text/HTML ” posts have one or two tags;
> five tags would be a lot, because each tag is hand·crafted.
As I pointed out in the post (you might be) referring to: This isn't
about *you*, it's about HTML in general. Do I state that more than five
HTML tags is evil, whilst 4 is fine? Would you prefer it if Cleanfeed
rejected more than x tags in a post? That's relatively easy to
implement as an additional HTML filter.
> You've been outflanked by Google Groups, ISP/pay servers and more.
This isn't about winning a battle, it's about providing users with the
best possible Usenet experience. As no two users are alike, that means
offering the greatest degree of configurability to admins so they can at
least try to please their populace.
> You have no evidence to support your “Usenet divided” and “spam” fears.
Of course I do, just this single thread highlights the disparity of
feeling on whether HTML has a place on Usenet.
> You may be weak, but the rest of us are ·selective·, we “Plonk”.
So perhaps you'd like to explain how you plonk HTML content *without*
first downloading all that content?
Jay E. Morris
>> simple, hand�crafted HTML. HTML is not exclusive to Asian spam�bots.
>> [ ?: news:ic4sbv$pg4$1...@tioat.net ]
>>
>> Eternal-September and Aioe still block it, but that's just them;
>> Google Groups, pay servers and others allow it.
>>
>> Instead of censorship ( Ray Banana )...
>> Read selectively, "Plonk" me, that's how it's done.
>
> LOL your welcome! Forget Ray he won't budge.
>
>
>
The Real Bev
> And who gets to count the vote? How do we know we can trust him/her/them?
> Should we resurrect the UVV? How do we prevent multiple votes? How do we
> make every NSP abide by the decision, those autocrats?
>
> (the above is deeply tongue-in-cheek)
Look, this is simple. No votes, just do as I want.
Thank you.
--
Cheers, Bev
--------------------------------------------
There is no such thing as a foolproof device
because fools are so ingenious.
Steve Crook
Message-Id: <JeffRelf.F-M.FM@_Z5.2010_Nov.19_.6.12.pm>:
> “Usenet convention” ( ha ha ) is to >quote 900 lines of crap,
> followed by one lone word... “idiot”.
That probably depends on what groups you read. Taking this thread as an
example, most references are quoted very well. We digress though, this
is about HTML.
> You asked me:
> “ Would you prefer it if Cleanfeed rejected more than x tags in a post?
> That's relatively easy to implement as an additional HTML filter. ”.
>
> If, after removing all tags, the first 3 lines are blank, it's “junk”.
> [ By “blank”, I mean nothing shows on the screen ]
When I look at well written HTML pages, there are always a lot of tag
lines at the beginning:
<!DOCTYPE>
<html>
<head>
<meta> * x
<title>
<link rel="StyleSheet">
</head>
<body>
<h1>
> Personally, I wouldn't drop the post, I'd just convert it to plain·text.
Sorry, this is a boundary that mustn't be crossed. Once newsservers
start modifying posts, they should (and would) be de-peered.
> Again, only a big·brother type ( like Mr. Banana ) would censor it;
> Google Groups and other for·profit servers would ·never· be so pedantic.
As you choose to use a pay server that allows your HTML, why are you
concerned about other services blocking HTML? You are free to elect
your service of choice based on its rules, why not extend that freedom
of choice to others?
> You asked me:
> “ perhaps you'd like to explain how you plonk HTML content *without*
> first downloading all that content? ”.
>
> It's not like that; I'm not weak, I've none of your fears.
> I can't read every post, but I read ·all· replies to me, no exceptions.
My point was that you cannot identify content as HTML without first
downloading it. Even if you download the entire header, a
"Content-Type: text/alternative" doesn't make it clear if the payload
contains HTML.
Jeff, I've snipped from here onwards as you're referring to your
specific Usenet experience, through your specific client implementation.
I don't think this is a reasonable representation of Usenet usage in
general. Your solutions might be better but Usenet is standards-based
and always has been.
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
Contrary to what you might think, Steve, no one reads every post.
Mainly, each reads the replies he gets; hell, some don't even do that.
Banana·style censorship might be well meaning,
but it's not necessary, and there's no precedence for it;
for·profit servers ( like Google Groups ) don't ban HTML.
“Eternal-September” should be called “Big-Brother”.
Get non·expiring gigs, blocks, from Usenet-News.NET or BlockNews.NET.
Spend 2 dollars... ·two· dollars... just once per ·lifetime·,
and you can post a free·form “From:” line, with no '@'.
'@' in the “From:” line is ludicrous...
⦅⦿⦆ if the address is real, the inbox will be killed by spam.
⦅⦿⦆ if the address is fake, it's spam.
Steve Crook
Message-Id: <JeffRelf.F-M.FM@_cv.2010_Nov.22_.4.31.am>:
> Contrary to what you might think, Steve, no one reads every post.
> Mainly, each reads the replies he gets; hell, some don't even do that.
There's a certain irony that you should say that having failed to
Respond to any of the points in the post you're referencing.
LouB
Gee no one is making you use E-S.
Google is a multi-billion dollar company with a strong incoming revenue
stream. Do you think that makes a difference?
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
I don't have to quote ❰·what Steve wrote·❱;
http://groups.google.com/group/news.groups/msg/00ffd78bb674f378
if he's confused, he can check the parent post... no ?
Steve Crook argued that HTML should be killed because
it's too hard to filter out.
My counter arguement was, and has been:
Filtering doesn't work that way,
no one filters out HTML, for·profit servers allow HTML.
HTML can be converted to plain text;
when scoring, the “References:” line matters most.
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
Steve Crook is upset, Ray Banana is hiding and Junior@Tioat is laughing.
I'm not trying to piss off Ray, I'm just calling it as I see it.
Score the “References:” line, convert HTML to plain text.
For·Profit servers don't dump a post just because it's HTML.
Big-Brother.ORG ( formerly known as Eternal-September )
is the exception, not the rule.
As I said:
Get non·expiring gigs, blocks, from Usenet-News.NET or BlockNews.NET.
Spend 2 dollars... ·two· dollars... just once per ·lifetime·,
and you can post HTML with a free·form “From:” line ( with no '@' ).
Steve Crook
Message-Id: <JeffRelf.F-M.FM@_6l.2010_Nov.22_.2.42.pm>:
> Steve Crook argued that HTML should be killed because
> it's too hard to filter out.
Did he? Filtering HTML is quite easy, it's already done on many
servers. I said there was too much overhead in *selectively* filtering
specific HTML Tags.
> My counter arguement was, and has been:
>
> Filtering doesn't work that way,
> no one filters out HTML, for·profit servers allow HTML.
Your arguement has always been that too many servers filter HTML, now
you're saying "no one filters out HTML".
> HTML can be converted to plain text;
Absolutely no, it cannot. Can you imagine the mess Usenet would become
if servers modified content?
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
For us users ( not admins ), scoring the “References:” line
is what matters most... and we can convert HTML to plain text,
instead of dropping a valid reply. Why drop a valid reply ?
Ray Banana's users/victims are my sole concern here·now;
hence the crosspost to Eternal-September.Support. As I said:
Get non·expiring gigs, blocks, from Usenet-News.NET or BlockNews.NET.
Spend 2 dollars... ·two· dollars... just once per ·lifetime·,
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
Ray Banana... why drop a valid reply just because it's HTML ?
Do you also reject HTML emails ? Speak up, I can't hear you.
KristleBawl
>
> Ray Banana... why drop a valid reply just because it's HTML ?
> Do you also reject HTML emails ? Speak up, I can't hear you.
Because it is and has always been standard usenet practice to only post
html in binaries newsgroups. Only those who refuse to accept common
rules of etiquette, such as yourself, insist and even demand that
everyone else conform to your preferences.
Please go back to posting in html so I won't have to put you back into
the filters on all four of my news servers. Eternal-September is not the
only one that is correctly configured.
--
Hab SoSlI' Quch! - Your Mother has a smooth forehead. - Klingon Curse
KristleBawl's Taglines by Tagzilla 0.066.2
http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
Properly configured, Thunderbird/3.1.6 ( KristleBawl's newsreader ),
handles HTML with aplomb ( as does Outlook cum Windows Live Mail ).
Most servers are for·profit ( e.g. Google Groups and Usenet-News.NET ),
and they don't reject a valid reply just because it's HTML.
“Eternal-September.ORG” is the odd man out, there are alternatives.
KristleBawl
That's true; my preferred news client, Thunderbird, does handle html
quite effectively. I simply choose to accept the usual and customary
ways of doing things.
In most of the support newsgroups, html often distracts from the actual
problem with which a poster requires assistance. I only run into
colorful and overly formatted messages in newsgroups plainly labeled as
*.binaries and in some, but not all, *.rec groups.
In a perfect world, html would not be possible except in *.binaries
groups where attachments and screenshots are always welcome. Pretty
formatting and fancy stationary belong in email, not usenet.
By the way, you are mistaken about Eternal-September being the "odd man
out", as I pointed out in my earlier reply, which you completely failed
to quote, as usual. Many people dislike your posts because you regularly
omit quoted text, use html, use non-conforming characters that other
newsreaders simply do not translate, and demonstrate a complete lack of
caring and understanding that the rest of the world simply cannot read
your custom designed messages from your homemade newsreader.
You are the "odd man out" here.
--
A few Beta's short of a full release!
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
You ( KristleBawl ) can't mention one for·profit server
that'd reject a valid reply simply because it's HTML.
My advice has been, and remains:
Get non·expiring gigs, blocks, from Usenet-News.NET or BlockNews.NET.
Spend 2 dollars... ·two· dollars... just once per ·lifetime·,
and you can post HTML with a free·form “From:” line ( with no '@' ).
'@' in the “From:” line is ludicrous...
―― if the address is real, it will be killed by spam.
―― if the address is fake, the address itself is spam.
LouB
suzeeq
Not to mention... he always changes the Subject line with every post.
Jay E. Morris
>
> Ray Banana... why drop a valid reply just because it's HTML ?
> Do you also reject HTML emails ? Speak up, I can't hear you.
Don't know about Ray but I do. Except for a very small select
white-listed group whom can't figure out how to selectively turn off
sending spawn of hell, POS, crap ridden email.
And the reason I use ES is not because it's free, but because it's doing
the dirty work for me.
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
Yes, I'm bad, real ·bad·, and I hope you ( Suzee and KristleBawl )
plonk me... but I'm not as bad as Ray Banana.
You can't mention one for·profit server
that'd reject a valid reply simply because it's HTML.
My advice remains:
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
You ( Jay E. Morris ) told us:
“ The reason I use ES is not because it's free, but because
it's doing the dirty work [ i.e. killing valid replies ] for me. ”.
Forgetting the whole “Big Brother” ( Ray Banana ) thing for a moment,
I can't imagine why anyone would drop a valid reply,
just because it's HTML ―― no for·profit server would dare do that.
My advice remains:
Get non·expiring gigs, blocks, from Usenet-News.NET or BlockNews.NET.
Spend 2 dollars... ·two· dollars... just once per ·lifetime·,
so you can post HTML and a free·form “From:” line ( with no '@' ).
Paul
news:JeffRelf.F-M.FM@_WN.2010_Nov.23_.8.18.pm:
>
> Yes, I'm bad, real ·bad·, and I hope you ( Suzee and KristleBawl )
> plonk me... but I'm not as bad as Ray Banana.
Ray is not bad just because he displeases you. If he was bad, your
postings would not even appear here.
> You can't mention one for·profit server
> that'd reject a valid reply simply because it's HTML.
Irrelevant. "If everyone else jumped off a cliff ..."
> My advice remains:
Say it once, it's advice. Saying it over and over is becoming spam.
--
Paul
KristleBawl
>> You are the "odd man out" here.
>>
> He is Troll so IGNORE him or filter him.
Of course he is, but occasionally he's worth a little entertainment
value. Once again, though, he has completely used up all value. ;-)
--
I haven't lost my mind -- it's backed up on a disk somewhere.
KristleBawl
>> You are the "odd man out" here.
>
> Not to mention... he always changes the Subject line with every post.
You're absolutely correct, I forgot to include that very annoying item!
--
He's so narrow minded he can see through a keyhole with both eyes.
KristleBawl
Amen to that, brother! <cue applause> :-)
--
Laughter is America's most important export. - Walt Disney
LouB
> LouB once said:
>> KristleBawl wrote:
>>> JeffRelf.F-M.FM once said:
>>> *nothing worth repeating again*
>>> You are the "odd man out" here.
>>>
>> He is Troll so IGNORE him or filter him.
>
> Of course he is, but occasionally he's worth a little entertainment
> value. Once again, though, he has completely used up all value. ;-)
>
reader1
> Jay E. Morris once said:
>> On 11/23/2010 2:31 PM, JeffRelf.F-M.FM wrote:
>>>
>>> Ray Banana... why drop a valid reply just because it's HTML ?
>>> Do you also reject HTML emails ? Speak up, I can't hear you.
>>
>> Don't know about Ray but I do. Except for a very small select
>> white-listed group whom can't figure out how to selectively turn off
>> sending spawn of hell, POS, crap ridden email.
>>
>> And the reason I use ES is not because it's free, but because it's doing
>> the dirty work for me.
>
> Amen to that, brother! <cue applause> :-)
>
2nd the motion. I use SLRN as I prefer text mode.
Of course, to silence the jerks/gimmes, ES can stop providing free/any
news service & just go "off the air" if it becomes too tiredsome.
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
> Ray is not bad just because he displeases you. If he was bad, your
> postings would not even appear here.
Perhaps ... you should have written ... if Ray was *GOOD* the Relf's
postings would not even appear here. <lol>
--
-bts
-The Relf - in the bozobin since 1929
NotMe
"Jay E. Morris" <mor...@epsilon3.com> wrote in message
news:ici3hl$u47$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Hear, Hear.
Gene Wirchenko
<pssa...@comcast.net.INVALID> wrote:
>JeffRelf.F-M.FM <x...@x.Invalid> wrote in
>news:JeffRelf.F-M.FM@_WN.2010_Nov.23_.8.18.pm:
>
>>
>> Yes, I'm bad, real ·bad·, and I hope you ( Suzee and KristleBawl )
>> plonk me... but I'm not as bad as Ray Banana.
>
>Ray is not bad just because he displeases you. If he was bad, your
>postings would not even appear here.
I disagree. Ray would be doing us a service (more than already
which is appreciated).
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Bruce Sinclair
.. and for an example of why that's a good thing, look at the "subject"
line on these messages ...
Re: =?UTF-8?B?77u/4oCLIFNwZWFrIHVwLCBSYXkgQmFuYW5hLCBJIGNhbid0IGg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?ZWFyIHlvdS4=?=
Yeah, that's really helpful, isn't it :)
Now imagine that throughout the posting.
The real question here is, why *wouldn't* you simply delete html messages ?
:)
Bruce Sinclair
While I agree in this case, that sort of dicretion does ned to be used with
caution. Censoship tends to be Bad Thing.
That said, my choosing not to read relf's foolish posts is not censorship,
but personal responsibility and choice. :)
Gene Wirchenko
bruce.s...@NOSPAMORELSEagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz (Bruce Sinclair)
wrote:
>In article <1c8re6d37tbh3t9nk...@4ax.com>, Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
[snip]
>> I disagree. Ray would be doing us a service (more than already
>>which is appreciated).
>
>While I agree in this case, that sort of dicretion does ned to be used with
>caution. Censoship tends to be Bad Thing.
>That said, my choosing not to read relf's foolish posts is not censorship,
>but personal responsibility and choice. :)
My choosing includes letting a moderator remove obvious garbage.
Twits, unfortunately, do not restrain themselves, so others have to
take action. It is more economical if only one person has to do this.
Ray could argue that he does not have time to examine posts in
detail. That would be a point in my favour. If he does not have much
time, then he will not be able to do much but filter obvious garbage.
That is what I want.
I do not see Ray going "bananas" deleting posts willy-nilly.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
John H Meyers
> mention one for profit server
> that'd reject a valid reply simply because it's HTML.
news.individual.net
(not exactly "for profit," but charges a fee)
http://news.individual.net/faq.php#2.6
Why the "for profit" qualification?
(E-S is free, even if its owner receives some support;
your criteria or even purpose about "for profit"
seems quite odd)
I use other servers which also reject HTML, e.g.:
news.mozilla.org
I also subscribe to mailing lists which refuse HTML,
e.g. all lists belonging to http://www.listmoms.net/
> '@' in the "From:" line is ludicrous...
> -- if the address is real, it will be killed by spam.
> -- if the address is fake, the address itself is spam.
Nonsense:
http://news.individual.net/faq.php#5.3
http://eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=terms
(essentially the same policy for both)
I know people using even real addresses for years,
who assert that they have no spam problem, but everyone is free
to use ".invalid" addresses as well, just as I choose to do.
--
John from Detroit
> Why the "for profit" qualification?
> (E-S is free, even if its owner receives some support;
> your criteria or even purpose about "for profit"
> seems quite odd)
For Profit means that the news server either
1: Charges for it's use or
2: Sells advertising
Advertising requires they proces and send the messages as HTML so they
can paste in the ads that we all filter out so we won't find them annoying..
NOT FOR PROFIT: means, among other things, No ads (As a general rule)
And thus need not process HTML...
Now: My position on this issue: Do whatever you want.. My News client
does not care and neither do I.
And as to the odds of your ever blocking a message from me due to
HTML...... I subscribe to KISS and HTML is not KISS (Keep It Simple
Stupid, or Keep It Super Simple if you are trying to be kind)
Bruce Sinclair
Agreed. :)
tlvp
>
> You ( Jay E. Morris ) told us:
> “ The reason I use ES is not because it's free, but because
> it's doing the dirty work [ i.e. killing valid replies ] for me. ”.
>Forgetting the whole “Big Brother” ( Ray Banana ) thing for a moment,
> I can't imagine why anyone would drop a valid reply,
> just because it's HTML ―― no for·profit server would dare do that.
Then thank goodness E-S is not-for-profit, and hence *does* "dare do that" :-)
> My advice remains:
>
> Get non·expiring gigs, blocks, from Usenet-News.NET or BlockNews.NET.
> Spend 2 dollars... ·two· dollars... just once per ·lifetime·,
> so you can post HTML and a free·form “From:” line ( with no '@' ).
>
> '@' in the “From:” line is ludicrous...
> ―― if the address is real, it will be killed by spam.
> ―― if the address is fake, the address itself is spam.
The more you repeat this "advice", the more I'm inclined to doubt its value.
Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP
milt
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 05:16:20 +0000 (UTC), "DAB"<K...@dodgit.com> wrote:
>
>
> Google groups and 'pay sites' are he MAJOR SOURCE of spam.
>
> I truly support anyone that nukes them, and nukes them HARD!
>
>
No kidding, and since when should newsgroups support HTML? Last I knew,
newsgroups were TEXT ONLY.
John H Meyers
> Look at the "subject" line on these messages ...
> Re: =?UTF-8?B?.....?= [Etc.]
>
> Yeah, that's really helpful, isn't it :)
> Now imagine that throughout the posting.
I don't know what point you're trying to make,
but FYI this has nothing to do with HTML,
is necessary to compose even "plain text" for non-English languages,
is used only within headers of standard internet messages,
to represent non-English internationalized characters
in a universal character set (UTF-8),
and is recognized and handled by all up-to-date software,
which has given up being only for English-speaking people
and extended full equality to all languages.
For (nearly) complete details, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME#Encoded-Word
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2047#section-2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Character_Set
--
KristleBawl
> On 11/24/2010 6:40 PM, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>> Look at the "subject" line on these messages ...
>> Re: =?UTF-8?B?.....?= [Etc.]
>>
>> Yeah, that's really helpful, isn't it :)
>> Now imagine that throughout the posting.
>
> I don't know what point you're trying to make,
> but FYI this has nothing to do with HTML,
> is necessary to compose even "plain text" for non-English languages,
> is used only within headers of standard internet messages,
<snip>
The point you missed is that the quoted text "Re: =?UTF-8?B?" and other
such nonsense was *not* in the Headers but used As The Subject, instead.
Young Relf is notorious for formatting his subject lines with these
characters, instead of just plain text which real newsreaders can
actually read. His unique homemade so-called "newsreader" is
non-standard and his posts do not show up normally in other newsreaders,
yet he insists that the rest of the world is wrong and he is right.
He does this *because he can* and not because he actually wants the rest
of the world to be able to read his posts.
--
Cauliflower is nothing but cabbage with a college education. - Twain
John H Meyers
>> Re: =?UTF-8?B?.....?= [Etc.]
> The point you missed is that the quoted text "Re: =?UTF-8?B?" and other
> such nonsense was *not* in the Headers but used As The Subject, instead.
"Subject:" _is_ a message header!
Unless invalid character codes for UTF-8 were included,
it's entirely valid -- and my reader (Thunderbird)
shows the subject exactly as it should appear.
There's no actual _need_ for such an encoding of plain text
(I've even replaced it with plain text in this branch of the thread),
but in the same fashion, I've seen many a mailer, for some reason,
encode all plain text message bodies using "base64,"
just as binary attachments might be encoded.
This might not be helpful to anyone who might be
trying to read messages directly from "view source"
but it's perfectly valid and won't stop many email or newsreader programs
from displaying the message body as the plain text it was supposed to be,
if they are up to date and incorporate the RFCs which define message encodings.
> Young Relf is notorious for formatting his subject lines with these
> characters, instead of just plain text which real newsreaders can
> actually read. His unique homemade so-called "newsreader" is
> non-standard and his posts do not show up normally in other newsreaders,
> yet he insists that the rest of the world is wrong and he is right.
Sometimes even a "wise guy" with an "attitude" is technically still
not violating any legalities, even if deliberately behaving
in a manner designed to annoy others or attract attention,
negative or otherwise.
This doesn't mean that anyone else need actually care,
since nature seems to work out Tom Lehrer's principle, in the long run:
"Life is like a sewer:
what you get out of it depends on what you put into it." ;-)
Also by Tom Lehrer:
"It is a sobering thought that when Mozart was my age,
he had been dead for two years."
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/life_is_like_a_sewer-what_you_get_out_of_it/12172.html
--
KristleBawl
> KristleBawl wrote:
>> The point you missed is that the quoted text "Re: =?UTF-8?B?" and other
>> such nonsense was *not* in the Headers but used As The Subject, instead.
>
> "Subject:" _is_ a message header!
>
> Unless invalid character codes for UTF-8 were included,
> it's entirely valid -- and my reader (Thunderbird)
> shows the subject exactly as it should appear.
I use Thunderbird, too, and many of Relf's subjects show up with
assorted characters, such as quoted. Sometimes, his subject lines are
all characters translated into "=?UTF-8?B?" style text, instead of
words. Either he deliberately tries to format the subject, and fails, or
his homemade news client is flawed.
<snip>
>> Young Relf is notorious for formatting his subject lines with these
>> characters, instead of just plain text which real newsreaders can
>> actually read. His unique homemade so-called "newsreader" is
>> non-standard and his posts do not show up normally in other newsreaders,
>> yet he insists that the rest of the world is wrong and he is right.
>
> Sometimes even a "wise guy" with an "attitude" is technically still
> not violating any legalities, even if deliberately behaving
> in a manner designed to annoy others or attract attention,
> negative or otherwise.
Acting like an annoying jackass isn't a crime, just pathetic. Notice I
didn't call anyone a jackass, only labeled the behavior.
So is posting with HTML in plain text newsgroups and then complaining to
the admins of individual news servers, accusing them of specifically
blocking *his* posts, even though all of his plain text messages show up
just fine. This entire thread, under this subject, is a direct result of
one such complain.
--
"And I am unanimous in that!" - Mrs. Slokum
Bert Hyman
<jhme...@nomail.invalid> wrote:
> Sometimes even a "wise guy" with an "attitude" is technically still
> not violating any legalities, even if deliberately behaving
> in a manner designed to annoy others or attract attention,
> negative or otherwise.
That's why most news clients have killfiles or filters.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN be...@iphouse.com
Gene Wirchenko
<jhme...@nomail.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
>Sometimes even a "wise guy" with an "attitude" is technically still
>not violating any legalities, even if deliberately behaving
>in a manner designed to annoy others or attract attention,
>negative or otherwise.
So what? Jerks should be dealt with so that their behaviour has
minimal effect on others.
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
John H Meyers
> "And I am unanimous in that!" - Mrs. Slocombe
At 0:33 in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maBx-uYpD8Y
At 6:05 in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tVJK9FmMNU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZQOLv85C68
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IDyrFfJow8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mollie_Sugden
http://www.officialmolliesugden.co.uk/
http://ldahlke.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/mollie_sugden_270.jpg?w=270&h=165
http://ukcelebritynews.yuddy.com/?p=4624
--
Bruce Sinclair
>On 11/24/2010 6:40 PM, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>
>> Look at the "subject" line on these messages ...
>> Re: =?UTF-8?B?.....?= [Etc.]
>>
>> Yeah, that's really helpful, isn't it :)
>> Now imagine that throughout the posting.
>
>I don't know what point you're trying to make,
.. that all html attempted posts seem to include this sort of rubbish.
>but FYI this has nothing to do with HTML,
>is necessary to compose even "plain text" for non-English languages,
>is used only within headers of standard internet messages,
>to represent non-English internationalized characters
>in a universal character set (UTF-8),
So foreigners are to blame then ? Interesting. It wasn't a problem until
(relatively :) ) recently. Text onjly seemed to work fine. :)
>and is recognized and handled by all up-to-date software,
>which has given up being only for English-speaking people
>and extended full equality to all languages.
So it is foreigners then ? OK, thanks :)
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
Two months ago, John H. Meyers said "News.Individual.NET"
and "News.Mozilla.ORG" drop "Content-Type: text/HTML" messages; see:
4CF05E5C...@nomail.invalid
He is wrong, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
My advice remains:
'@' in the “From:” line is ludicrous...
◀▶ if the address is real, it will be killed by spam.
◀▶ if the address is fake, the address itself is spam.
To post HTML and a free·form “From:” line ( with no '@' ),
use "Tioat.NET:119" and/or spend ·three· dollars ( once )
for non·expiring gigs, blocks, from BlockNews.NET or Usenet-News.NET.
Write your own newsreader, and/or use Mozilla ThunderBird,
Windows Live Mail ( nee Outlook Express, for XP, not Windows 7 ),
and/or Google Groups.
JeffRelf.F-M.FM
[ This is a multi·post because Ray Banana blocks the cross·post ]
Steve Crook
Message-Id: <JeffRelf.F-M.FM@_Do.2011_Jan.26_.10.00.am>:
> '@' in the “From:” line is ludicrous...
Quoting from RFC1036 - Standard for interchange of USENET messages
The "From" line contains the electronic mailing address of the
person who sent the message, in the Internet syntax. It may
optionally also contain the full name of the person, in parentheses,
after the electronic address.
Some, like you, would say this is ludicrous. They might even scoff that
Usenet is ludicrous. It would undoubtedly be different if it was
designed from scratch today. None of that really matters though as
there's a standard by which all users and providers should comply. If
the standard is wrong then participate in the process of changing it;
your contribution will be most welcomed. Until it is changed though,
please understand that the providers are doing the best job possible by
complying with the current standards.
Dr J R Stockton
et>, Thu, 27 Jan 2011 12:49:56, Steve Crook <st...@mixmin.net> posted:
>
>Quoting from RFC1036 - Standard for interchange of USENET messages
While a good guide, 1036 has been superseded, firstly by the unofficial
Son-of-1036 and now by a newer generation..
--
(c) John Stockton, nr London UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Grandson-Of-RFC1036 is released. RFC 5536 Netnews Article Format is a
subset of Internet Message Format which is described in RFC 5532. The
RFCs are read together to determine standard Netnews article format.