NoCeM in thread with preloaded headers

[Adam H. Kerman]

A long-time shill Terrence Clay posts via Google Groups promoting Web
pages, never adding his own discussion. Because Google Groups restricts
crossposting, Ubi the shithead re-injects these articles with a slightly
altered Message-ID, forgest Terrence Clay, and preloads headers from
Terrence Clay's article to make it appear to be posted through Google
Groups even though it's actually posted through Giganews.

Giganews does not enforce its own AUP. This is long-standing abuse.

Ray has never enforced this because Giganews should be enforcing this.

But one of you issuing NoCeMs did so against both the original and
forged Terrence Clay article.

This stuff pisses me off but there's really no automated way to filter
this, so I wonder what's going on.

In the meantime, another annoying poster using a preloaded MIME boundary
reference but the article isn't posting with MIME boundaries. It makes
it unrenderable in trn 4. Note that he claims his newsreader is trn 4.

trn 4 would never do such a thing but one can write a macro to add the
MIME boundary reference or just type the header in manually.

Terrence Clay
<8b5f2312-6631-4b3d...@googlegroups.com>

Ubi the shithead forgery with preloaded headers
<n85f2312-6631-4b3d...@googlegroups.com>

Preloaded header MIME boundary
<4cffe322ea4e0a39...@hamiltonhall.info>

[VanguardLH]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

> A long-time shill Terrence Clay posts via Google Groups promoting Web
> pages, never adding his own discussion. Because Google Groups
> restricts crossposting, Ubi the shithead re-injects these articles
> with a slightly altered Message-ID, forgest Terrence Clay, and
> preloads headers from Terrence Clay's article to make it appear to be
> posted through Google Groups even though it's actually posted through
> Giganews.

Giganews permits clients to preload the PATH header?

> Ubi the shithead forgery with preloaded headers
> <n85f2312-6631-4b3d...@googlegroups.com>

From the HK archive:
http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cn85f2312-6631-4b3d-a5ad-5290b09deb78n%40googlegroups.com%3E
the headers are (shortened):

Path: ...!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; ...
User-Agent: G2/1.0
Message-ID: <n85f2312-6631-4b3d...@googlegroups.com>

Despite the Injection-Info, User-Agent, and Message-ID headers, the
injection node in the PATH header shows the article was submitted to
Giganews, not to Google. The MID and UA headers are generated by the
client, so their value can be whatever the client specifies. The server
only adds the MID header when omitted in the submission, but it could
reject on MID conflict.

From other articles submitted by Giganews users, Giganews does not add
the Injection-Info header.

I suppose a filter could be defined that looks for the domain in the MID
header to specify @googlegroups.com which does not match on the
injection host host in the PATH header. For a client, it would have to
download the non-overview headers with an article retrieve to get at the
PATH header. Off the top of my header, a filter I would try in my
client would look like:

# MID has googlegroups.com but PATH injection node does not.
Message-ID {@googlegroups\.com>} -@Header:{(?-s)^Path: \S+\giganews\.com(!?\.?POSTED)?(!not-for-mail)?$}

Alternatively test for Giganews in the PATH injection node and check if
there is an Injection-Info header that Giganews does not insert. Or,
test for G2 in the User-Agent header but googlegroups.com not the inject
node in PATH.

[Retro Guy]

Looks like it got caught in my NoCeM (i2pn2).

Why does giganews allow a user to add an Injection-Info header?

Could you clarify (I'm not too sharp) if you feel this user should remain
in my banned filter?

BTW, I do not bother at all with 'From: ' addresses to filter, it's don't
with other headers.

[VanguardLH]

However, if the NoCeM wasn't applied at ES where a filter coupld be
applied to catch posters pretending to be GG posters but actually
submitting elsewhere, it isn't ES' fault. ES just applies the NoCeMs it
got from elsewhere. A pre-filter to NoCeM generation at ES wouldn't
help with NoCeMs that ES gets from elsewhere.

I didn't see <n85f2312-6631-4b3d...@googlegroups.com> in
eternal-september.nocems. Nothing in alt.nocem.misc on ES. There are
far too many new posts (to my client) in news.lists.filters to bother
for me to hunt there for a NoCeM on the forger's post, and the legit
poster. Ray probably could find from where the NoCeMs originated that
he processed. It should be one of those listed at:

http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=nocem

You sure Clay's posts (the unforged poster) isn't getting NoCeMs issued
against his own posts? I thought NoCeMs were issued against the MID
value. The forger's MID is different than Clay's as you pointed out.
Why would a NoCeM against the forger's MID apply to Clay's MID?

Hmm, from i2pn2's admin reply, he is banning Clay, so he'd consequently
ban a poster forging Clay. I don't visit those newsgroups to know Clay
for why he may be banned.

[Sn!pe]

Good advice if your intention is to filter out the frogger for yourself
but they're usually trying to blacken the name of the person being
frogged. Casual readers will not be using filtration and will not
detect the froggery but take it at face value.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

[Retro Guy]

I have removed from the banned list until I can take a closer look.

Note: getting into the banned list is automated, it's not something I do
manually. There is far too much spam to review every one, and the
auto-banning has been working well. There will ALWAYS be a false positive
now and then.

I did not know that giganews would allow adding an Injection-Info header,
so I will account for that now.

[Ivo Gandolfo]

On 10/01/2024 22:52, Retro Guy wrote:
>
> I did not know that giganews would allow adding an Injection-Info header,
> so I will account for that now.

tested for you, see <uk9psk$3pldd$1...@faked.bofh.team>

http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=<uk9psk%243pldd%241%40faked.bofh.team>

This is the original message I send via telnet:
*****************************************************

Path: faked.bofh.team!not-for-mail
From: Ivo Gandolfo <use...@bofh.team>
Newsgroups: aioe.test
Subject: test faked a lot of info
Organization: Faked Also
Message-ID: <uk9psk$3pldd$1...@faked.bofh.team>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: faked.bofh.team; logging-data="3986861";
posting-host="df7gb8d78b7gTlJ34XukQ.user.faked.bofh.team";
mail-complaints-to="dev...@bofh.team"; posting-account="blahfaked";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha256:MB6UTieLR0UrZpdo/mlsFPj/0XJZGaltc+9rDog/i1M=
Content-Language: en-US

test faking post and some else...


--
Ivo Gandolfo
********************************************************


Giga adding a lot of non-standart X-header.

Sincerely

--
Ivo Gandolfo

[Retro Guy]

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 23:34:38 +0100, Ivo Gandolfo wrote:

> On 10/01/2024 22:52, Retro Guy wrote:
>>
>> I did not know that giganews would allow adding an Injection-Info header,
>> so I will account for that now.
>
>
> tested for you, see <uk9psk$3pldd$1...@faked.bofh.team>
>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=<uk9psk%243pldd%241%40faked.bofh.team>
>
> This is the original message I send via telnet:
> *****************************************************
>
> Path: faked.bofh.team!not-for-mail
> From: Ivo Gandolfo <use...@bofh.team>
> Newsgroups: aioe.test
> Subject: test faked a lot of info
> Organization: Faked Also
> Message-ID: <uk9psk$3pldd$1...@faked.bofh.team>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Injection-Info: faked.bofh.team; logging-data="3986861";
> posting-host="df7gb8d78b7gTlJ34XukQ.user.faked.bofh.team";
> mail-complaints-to="dev...@bofh.team"; posting-account="blahfaked";
> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
> Cancel-Lock: sha256:MB6UTieLR0UrZpdo/mlsFPj/0XJZGaltc+9rDog/i1M=
> Content-Language: en-US
>
> test faking post and some else...

Thank you Ivo!

I have a few minutes ago made a change to verify the source of the post
independent from the Injection-Info header.

I am letting it run now for testing and have temporarily disable sending
NoCeM messages.

[Adam H. Kerman]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>>A long-time shill Terrence Clay posts via Google Groups promoting Web
>>pages, never adding his own discussion. Because Google Groups
>>restricts crossposting, Ubi the shithead re-injects these articles
>>with a slightly altered Message-ID, forgest Terrence Clay, and
>>preloads headers from Terrence Clay's article to make it appear to be
>>posted through Google Groups even though it's actually posted through
>>Giganews.

>Giganews permits clients to preload the PATH header?

I didn't write that. It's the injections headers that were preloaded.

That's nonstandard.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Both
<8b5f2312-6631-4b3d...@googlegroups.com>

and
<n85f2312-6631-4b3d...@googlegroups.com>

?

May I ask which filter they tripped?

>Why does giganews allow a user to add an Injection-Info header?

I have no idea. Giganews takes no AUP against paying customers.

>Could you clarify (I'm not too sharp) if you feel this user should remain
>in my banned filter?

I'm not sure why
<8b5f2312-6631-4b3d...@googlegroups.com> was filtered.
Terrence Clay is a shill but that's not abuse.

If you figured out a filter to address the preloaded injection header
issue, sure, keep Ubi filtered.

[VanguardLH]

Something would have to trigger you to suspect a poster is forging, like
style is dramatically different, seems the poster is contradicting
themself, or someone else claims they are a forger. Sometimes the
victim announces they are being forged since they know they didn't
submit what the forger submitted. Then you inspect the raw message to
look at the headers between forgery and victim posts to see what is
different. I have a couple of filters where someone was getting forged,
and I would fire on the forger's post but not on the victim's posts.

If the forger were using the same Usenet provider to get the same
injection node in the PATH header, it would be easy for the victim to
report the forgery and get the forger's account killed. Obviously that
works on registered Usenet providers where an account is required to
post. At unregistered Usenet providers, like AIOE (before it died) and
paganini, there is no punishment for forgers since they don't have to
login to use those servers. I flag posts injected using unregistered
Usenet providers as a warning the poster may not be clean.

Free is nice, but unregistered free Usenet providers are a liability.
They are no-accounts. They have no account-ability. I ran out of puns.

This works at the client end where the filter can be defined to catch a
forger to compare their headers against the victim's headers. I would
think a similar filter would work at the server employing scripts to
catch reported forgers, but really only applies to peered articles
originating elsewhere. Here at ES, Ray should kill an account for a
reported forger providing the report is legitimate. At ES, the From
header must match on the e-mail address to be considered a forgery. All
the other headers injected by the Clay forger are not considered.

http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=abuse#Forging

From: Terrence Clay <tmc...@gmail.com>
From: From: tmc...@gmail.com

The formats differ where one uses the comment token with address field
versus the other just has an address. The e-mail addresses are the
same. However, since the injection point was Giganews instead of ES,
Ray can't do anything about banning the forger or closing his Giganews
account. The victim would have to report the forger to Giganews which,
as I recall, requires accounts to use them. Most times only the victim
can submit a forgery report, not someone else on his behalf.

Giganews should kill the forger's account. I don't the content of the
forger's posts to know if they are considered spam for i2pn2 to create
NoCeMs. I wouldn't think a Usenet provider would issue NoCeMs against a
poster they banned, but was submitting to a different Usenet provider.
They could reject peered articles from the forger, but seems
inappropriate to issue NoCeMs on behalf of another Usenet provider who
you think should be banning the forger.

So, it really is an issue Giganews should handle, but maybe they haven't
been informed of the forgery. Giganews should ban the forger by killing
his account with Giganews, or suspending it with a warning. That would
be their method of banning since they do require accounts. To issue
NoCeMs from Giganews seems late: allow the forgery, and then tell other
servers to remove it. Giganews cannot enforce their AUP unless they are
made aware of a violation. I don't see "forg" in their AUP
(https://giganews.com/legal/aup/), but they do consider abuse altering
the headers. Giganews does not add the Injection-Info header that the
forger added to match on the victim's headers. I'm surprised Giganews
doesn't explicitly specify forgery as cause for abuse, but maybe they
cover it under the "Other Abuse Situations".

Kerman says Giganews does not enforce their AUP. He uses ES. I use
individual.net primarily with ES as secondary/backup. Since I'm not a
Giganews user that has reported abuse according to their AUP, but
Giganews did nothing, I can't say whether or not Giganews does not
enforce their AUP. Perhaps Kerman could expound on the basis of his
claim.

[VanguardLH]

Which I noted later in "Giganews does not add the Injection-Info
header". When you said pre-loaded, my first thought was of the PATH
header, and pre-loading nodes before the injection point. Altopia used
to allow pre-loading the PATH, with a rule alt.net must be appended
after the pre-load string, never enforced it, and luckily they died.
I've never heard of clients adding headers as pre-loading them.
Subject, Date, References, Organization, many X-headers, and oprtionally
Message-ID are added by the client, and are not considered pre-loaded.
So it was the terminology that confused me.

[Adam H. Kerman]

The Terrance Clay impersonation is forgery. This is literally abuse.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Forgot to point out: Ubi the shithead altered the Message-ID. It is not
generated by the newsreader. Because he merely prepends a character or
swaps two characters, the altered Message-ID isn't using a process that
better assures uniqueness.

>. . .

[Adam H. Kerman]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>. . .

>Kerman says Giganews does not enforce their AUP. He uses ES. I use
>individual.net primarily with ES as secondary/backup. Since I'm not a
>Giganews user that has reported abuse according to their AUP, but
>Giganews did nothing, I can't say whether or not Giganews does not
>enforce their AUP. Perhaps Kerman could expound on the basis of his
>claim.

Why? I'm verbose enough as it is. I've reported similar examples
numerous times. I've reported getting forged myself. Ubi the shithead
has not lost his account.

If you don't believe me, who cares?

[Adam H. Kerman]

I thought "preloaded" made the point. I've been referring to these
headers as preloaded ever since I first caught Ubi the shithead doing
this a number of years ago. If you would like to suggest a different
term to use, I'll consider it.

[VanguardLH]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

"Giganews does not enforce its own AUP. This is long-standing abuse."

That's verbose? Were you a Giganews user, and another Giganews user
forged you? Not sure why any provider of any online service would honor
requests from non-customers. They're not responsible to non-customers.
If the forger were using a non-Giganews Usenet provider, what is
Giganews going to do about it? If the victim is not a Giganews
customer, are they responsible for everyone elsewhere getting forged?

https://giganews.com/legal/aup/

Forgery by name is not explicitly listed as an abuse, but maybe it is
covered under:

Altered Headers
Falsifying header lines to obscure the originating server, to
attribute a post to someone else, to falsely indicate moderator
approval, or to make an original post look like a followup are serious
abuses of our service and will result in immediate account
termination.

The forger inserting the Injection-Info header is hard to determine if
covered by Giganew's abuse rules in their AUP. You and I, and other
users, would see it as the forger trying to make his post look like it
was submitted to Google Groups. Since Giganews doesn't insert this
header, likely they don't test for the presence of headers they don't
insert. The forger's MID header saying googlegroups.com is not
falsifying that header since the client can specify whatever they want
for the MID's value. There are many client-specified headers that the
server does not add. The PATH header can't be falsified, because
posters don't get to insert that header (unless the provider allows PATH
pre-loading without enforcing a check the injection node is for their
domain).

For the forger's From header, did they actually specify an e-mail
address? At glance, seems they only specified a comment field (which
has the victim's e-mail address), and no address field.

RFC 5322
from = "From:" mailbox-list CRLF
mailbox-list = (mailbox *("," mailbox)) / obs-mbox-list
obs-mbox-list = *([CFWS] ",") mailbox *("," [mailbox / CFWS])
mailbox = name-addr / addr-spec
name-addr = [display-name] angle-addr
So, display-name (comment) is optional, but angle-addr
is required.
addr-spec = local-part "@" domain

From: <address>
From: me <address>

are legit, but so is:

From: address

I just wanted to check the RFC to ensure a non-delimited address alone
in the From header was legit, and it is. So, the forger's From is a
forge of Clay's From: the addresses match. Many Usenet providers only
consider something is a forgery based only on the address field. The
comment field, if present, is not relevant in deciding on forgery.

It's the victim getting forged that has to report the forgery. Not you
nor I can issue the abuse report on behalf of Clay. Nothing can happen
at Giganews until Clay makes a report (ab...@giganews.com), but Clay is
not a Giganews customer. Should Giganews be considered responsible for
abuse on non-customers? Reporting to Google about forgery originating
from Giganews won't grant Google control over account management at
Giganews. On reporting forgery, seems the victim and forger must be on
the same Usenet provider.

http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=abuse#Forging

They will terminate a forger's ES account. However, they also say "we
do not act on third party complaints for spoofing". With me using
individual.net, wouldn't me reporting a forger using ES be considered a
third party complaint? Comes back to forger and victim must be using
the same Usenet provider.

Complaint by a customer can result on action on another customer.
Complaint by non-customers results in no action on customer.
Complaint by customer results in no action on non-customer.
Getting a forger killed has narrow contraints.

[VanguardLH]

"Fake server headers inserted by client" is just too long. So is
Giganews "Falsifying header lines to obscure the originating server".
Can't think of a good catch phrase right now.

Phish headers? As in deception by using bogus headers. Not much keen on
that one.

Forged headers? As in the forger adds bogus headers to enhance the
illusion of his forgery.

[Ray Banana]

Thus spake VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH>

> from Giganews won't grant Google control over account management at
> Giganews. On reporting forgery, seems the victim and forger must be on
> the same Usenet provider.
> http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=abuse#Forging

You misunderstood the term "third party". Third party means somebody who
is NOT the person being forged irrespective of their Usenet provider.

> Complaint by a customer can result on action on another customer.

Correct.

> Complaint by non-customers results in no action on customer.

If the complaint is submitted by the person being forged, it
WILL result in action against the customer.

> Complaint by customer results in no action on non-customer.

Correct.

--
Пу́тін — хуйло́
https://www.eternal-september.org

[Adam H. Kerman]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>>>. . .

>>>Kerman says Giganews does not enforce their AUP. He uses ES. I use
>>>individual.net primarily with ES as secondary/backup. Since I'm not a
>>>Giganews user that has reported abuse according to their AUP, but
>>>Giganews did nothing, I can't say whether or not Giganews does not
>>>enforce their AUP. Perhaps Kerman could expound on the basis of his
>>>claim.

>>Why? I'm verbose enough as it is. I've reported similar examples
>>numerous times. I've reported getting forged myself. Ubi the shithead
>>has not lost his account.

>>If you don't believe me, who cares?

>"Giganews does not enforce its own AUP. This is long-standing abuse."

>That's verbose? Were you a Giganews user, and another Giganews user
>forged you? Not sure why any provider of any online service would honor
>requests from non-customers. They're not responsible to non-customers.
>If the forger were using a non-Giganews Usenet provider, what is
>Giganews going to do about it? If the victim is not a Giganews
>customer, are they responsible for everyone elsewhere getting forged?

Obviously we're discussing articles injected through Giganews.

>https://giganews.com/legal/aup/

Did you read?

Altered Headers
Falsifying header lines to obscure the originating server, to
attribute a post to someone else, to falsely indicate moderator
approval, or to make an original post look like a followup are
serious abuses of our service and will result in immediate
account termination.

That clearly covers the nonstandard preloading of injection headers, the
very issue I raised in this thread.

>Forgery by name is not explicitly listed as an abuse, but maybe it is
>covered under:

> Altered Headers
> Falsifying header lines to obscure the originating server, to
> attribute a post to someone else, to falsely indicate moderator
> approval, or to make an original post look like a followup are serious
> abuses of our service and will result in immediate account
> termination.

>The forger inserting the Injection-Info header is hard to determine if
>covered by Giganew's abuse rules in their AUP.

So you did read it. It's done to obscure the originating server. It's
addressed in the AUP.

>. . .

>http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=abuse#Forging

>They will terminate a forger's ES account. However, they also say "we
>do not act on third party complaints for spoofing". With me using
>individual.net, wouldn't me reporting a forger using ES be considered a
>third party complaint? Comes back to forger and victim must be using
>the same Usenet provider.

The first party is the user being spoofed. The second party is the News
administrator. The third party anybody else.

Spoofing is irrelevant to what is being discussed here.

>. . .

[Adam H. Kerman]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>>I thought "preloaded" made the point. I've been referring to these
>>headers as preloaded ever since I first caught Ubi the shithead doing
>>this a number of years ago. If you would like to suggest a different
>>term to use, I'll consider it.

>"Fake server headers inserted by client" is just too long. So is
>Giganews "Falsifying header lines to obscure the originating server".
>Can't think of a good catch phrase right now.

I could simply specify that it's the injection headers that were being
preloaded.

>Phish headers? As in deception by using bogus headers. Not much keen on
>that one.

>Forged headers? As in the forger adds bogus headers to enhance the
>illusion of his forgery.

Let's keep forgery specifically associated with the email address on
From.

[VanguardLH]

In forging the MID in trying to pretend it was server generated, no
client can guarantee uniques of the MID value. Even when clients
generate their own MID that seems to be unique, that doesn't guarantee
no MID conflict.

Take the example of Forte Agent users that have the client generate the
MID header. They aren't cooperating with other Agent users to ensure
the left-token is unique while the 4ax.com right-token is used by all
those Forte users. The server will add its own MID header *if* the
client did not specify one. The server can ensure MIDs are unique that
it assigns, but clients cannot guarantee they create unique MIDs. With
clients specifying their own MID values, there can be MID conflicts on
the server. So how do servers handle MID conflicts?

I forget the Usenet provider, but I asked how they handle MID conflicts.
The response is they are very rare, but when it happens and how to
resolve the conflict wasn't really explained other than suppression of
the conflict (both articles with same MID would be removed or made
inaccessible). Or, the first one with the MID is kept, but successive
submissions with the same MID are suppressed (dropped).

In the forger's case, if he creates a MID that already exists (for an
article on the server to which he submits), his message gets dropped.
If an article has not yet been peered to a server where the forger
submits, an article on one server could have the same MID as an article
on a different server. During peering one of them would have to get
dropped, but which one? The Date header is specified by the client (*).
Do the servers retain the submission datestamp, so on a MID conflict a
server could see which article was submitted first? If the Date header
was used to see which conflicting article was submitted first (and drop
the later dated conflicting article), the forger could also forge the
Date header. So knowing which was first would require a datestamp the
server added or tracked for articles.

(*) I've seen trolls that post-date their articles. They specify a Date
header in the future. They do this to get their articles listed at the
top of the message list in clients. Dialog does let me filter on age,
like "age %> 60" to colorize posts over 2 months old. I don't remember
ever trying to test on a negative value, like "age %< -1", to find
future-dated posts (beyond today which is probably age of zero). I just
created such a rule, and Dialog said the expression was okay. Before I
run that rule, I'll save the message store. If it ends up flagging all
articles, I'll have to restore the message store, rules file, etc, or
just save an incremental image before, and restore after. Sometimes
clocks are off, so a good poster looks like they posted in the future,
while the trolls move the date forward by several days, or even years.
For now, I'll probably use age %< -5.

[Sn!pe]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
[...]

[...]

I very much agree. IMO unregistered free Usenet providers inevitably
become troll-havens and nuisances and there is a certain stigma attached
to posting on such a server. I know that Paolo worked very hard to keep
AIOE as clean as he could but, other than in exceptional circumstances,
I would not use a server that did not require authentication.

[🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈Jen🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈 Dershmender 💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🐶笛🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈]

On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 10:23:00 -0000 (UTC), LO AND BEHOLD; "Adam H.
Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> determined that the following was of not great
importance to "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> and subsequently
decided to NOT freely share it with us in
<unofi4$2uv9u$1...@dont-email.me>:

=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= . . .
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Kerman says Giganews does not enforce their AUP. He uses ES. I use
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= individual.net primarily with ES as secondary/backup. Since I'm not a
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Giganews user that has reported abuse according to their AUP, but
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Giganews did nothing, I can't say whether or not Giganews does not
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= enforce their AUP. Perhaps Kerman could expound on the basis of his
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= claim.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Why? I'm verbose enough as it is. I've reported similar examples
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= numerous times. I've reported getting forged myself. Ubi the shithead
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= has not lost his account.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= If you don't believe me, who cares?
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= "Giganews does not enforce its own AUP. This is long-standing abuse."
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= That's verbose? Were you a Giganews user, and another Giganews user
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= forged you? Not sure why any provider of any online service would
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= honor requests from non-customers. They're not responsible to
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= non-customers. If the forger were using a non-Giganews Usenet provider,
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= what is Giganews going to do about it? If the victim is not a Giganews
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= customer, are they responsible for everyone elsewhere getting forged?
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Obviously we're discussing articles injected through Giganews.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= https://giganews.com/legal/aup/
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Did you read?
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Altered Headers Falsifying header lines to obscure the originating
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= server, to attribute a post to someone else, to falsely indicate
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= moderator approval, or to make an original post look like a followup
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= are serious abuses of our service and will result in immediate
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= account termination.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= That clearly covers the nonstandard preloading of injection headers, the
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= very issue I raised in this thread.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Forgery by name is not explicitly listed as an abuse, but maybe it is
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= covered under:
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Altered Headers Falsifying header lines to obscure the originating
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= server, to attribute a post to someone else, to falsely indicate
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= moderator approval, or to make an original post look like a followup
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= are serious abuses of our service and will result in immediate account
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= termination.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= The forger inserting the Injection-Info header is hard to determine if
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= covered by Giganew's abuse rules in their AUP.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= So you did read it. It's done to obscure the originating server. It's
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= addressed in the AUP.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= . . .
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=abuse#Forging
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= They will terminate a forger's ES account. However, they also say "we
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= do not act on third party complaints for spoofing". With me using
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= individual.net, wouldn't me reporting a forger using ES be considered a
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= third party complaint? Comes back to forger and victim must be using
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= the same Usenet provider.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= The first party is the user being spoofed. The second party is the News
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= administrator. The third party anybody else.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Spoofing is irrelevant to what is being discussed here.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= . . .
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=

Perhaps the person complaining to giga has previuosly made spurious complaints about a user who violated no AUP or TOS and their new complaints are being bit-bucketed due to abuse of the abuse process.

HTH

--

"If you worried half as much about your own personal life as you do
everyone else's, you might almost be tolerable, obsessed stalker."

-James "Checkmate" Gorman, in perhaps the most ironic and
mentally-challenged statement ever made on Usenet.
<MPG.4001ba2c1...@usnews.blocknews.net>

Golden Killfile, June 2005
KOTM, November 2006
Bob Allisat Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, November 2006
Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart, November 2006
Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart, September 2007
Tony Sidaway Memorial "Drama Queen" Award, November 2006
Busted Urinal Award, April 2007
Order of the Holey Sockpuppet, September 2007
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, September 2006
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, April 2008
Tinfoil Sombrero, February 2007
AUK Mascot, September 2007
Putting the Awards Out of Order to Screw With the OCD Fuckheads, March 2016

[Retro Guy]

Terrence Clay was filtered because someone else posted what my Spamassassin
considered spam, then added an Injection-Info header that had Clay's info.
Then, the server added that to the list of banned users and kept banning
him.

Of course this is not good, but I did not realize a server would allow a
user to add Injection-Info (my mistake)

> If you figured out a filter to address the preloaded injection header
> issue, sure, keep Ubi filtered.

Yes, I have already made that change since the start of this thread.

Thanks for the detailed info in this thread.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Thanks for the explanation. So Ubi's antics resulted in Terrence Clay's
root article getting filtered.

[immibis]

On 1/10/24 21:28, Retro Guy wrote:
> Why does giganews allow a user to add an Injection-Info header?

Giganews and other paid providers are commercial providers of illegal
copyrighted content (but pretend they aren't). As long as the pirated
media keeps flowing, the money keeps flowing. They have no reason to
care about anything else, and they certainly don't even care if they get
UDPed from the text side of Usenet, except insofar as it destroys their
plausible deniability.

[The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor]

casual readers who know the unfortunate victim moderately well will detect
it, if it seems out of character for them

--
Ellenor Bjornsdottir <ze...@umbrellix.net> Pan makes it quite difficult to
set a multi-line signature. Some say it should be that way. Most of those
people already have us on their killfile.

[Adam H. Kerman]

The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net> wrote:

>casual readers who know the unfortunate victim moderately well will detect
>it, if it seems out of character for them

Don't top post ever.

You really have a reading comprehension problem. The Terrence Clay articles
are re-injected by Ubi the Shithead. The Message-ID is changed, usually
by one character, and a crosspost gets added.

There's nothing to "detect", given that Terrence Clay is a shill to
begin with, reposting Web pages or abstracts to Web pages without adding
any comment he had written.

I just explained all of this.

[The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor]

"don't top post ever" - immediately proceeds to do the thing.

folks, I think it's very clear that AHK can be killfiled without impacting
your posting experience. along with this terrence character, if you've had
a problem with them.

also. top post harder. I love how red AHK's face gets when people top
post.

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 18:02:03 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net> wrote:
>
>>casual readers who know the unfortunate victim moderately well will
>>detect it, if it seems out of character for them
>
> Don't top post ever.
>
> You really have a reading comprehension problem. The Terrence Clay
> articles are re-injected by Ubi the Shithead. The Message-ID is changed,
> usually by one character, and a crosspost gets added.
>
> There's nothing to "detect", given that Terrence Clay is a shill to
> begin with, reposting Web pages or abstracts to Web pages without adding
> any comment he had written.
>
> I just explained all of this.

[VanguardLH]

This is Usenet, not e-mail. Etiquettes differ between the differing
communication venues. If you don't want to comply with netiquette here,
don't bitch when you rile those who do comply with de facto netiquette.
Leave, or adapt to the etiquette appropriate to the communication venue
where you participate.

If you believe bottom-posting is correct then you must arrange all
quoted content in bottom-posting order. If you believe top-posting is
correct (not the norm in Usenet) then you must also arrange all quoted
content in top-posting order -- but you created a jumbled mess. To
create a jumbled mix of top- and bottom-posted content means you're
lazy, and a hipocrite. If you are too lazy to arrange all content to
match your choice of posting order, don't bother to quote at all. It is
not required.

In addition to sticking with a chosen posting order, also learn to trim
before submit.

Yep, you can killfile me, too, and most netizens here. It's not just
others you can plonk. It's others plonking deliberately obstreperous
posters, like yourself. Play nice with the other kids, or go play by
yourself elsewhere.

You have bottom-posted in Usenet before. So why not now?

[Adam H. Kerman]

The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net> wrote:

>"don't top post ever" - immediately proceeds to do the thing.

>folks, I think it's very clear that AHK can be killfiled without impacting
>your posting experience. along with this terrence character, if you've had
>a problem with them.

Each and every time you create a new sockpuppet, you threaten to kill
file me. Somehow, you've yet to do it.

I'm here to help. Just ask.

>. . .

[The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor]

Because I love to see how you get triggered by it. That's all. Have fun,
arsehole! (:

[yeti]

The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net> writes:

> "don't top post ever" - immediately proceeds to do the thing.
>
> folks, I think it's very clear that AHK can be killfiled without
> impacting your posting experience. along with this terrence character,
> if you've had a problem with them.

Overreacting just provokes such answers. Some really should take care
of their blood pressure.

> also. top post harder. I love how red AHK's face gets when people top
> post.

No. I dislike top posting too. I just do not start to yell at others
for doing it.

--
I do not bite, I just want to play.

[VanguardLH]

Have it your way then. You choose to be rude and violative. You got
just what you strived for: cast aside with the other trolls.

[Sn!pe]

The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net> wrote:

> Because I love to see how you get triggered by it. That's all.
> Have fun, arsehole! (:

It seems we have a popularity contest in progress.

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 18:40:19 -0000 (UTC), The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor
<ze...@umbrellix.net> wrote:

> Because I love to see how you get triggered by it.

It's rude to plonk instead of quietly killfiling,
but I think that plonking is justified in this instance.

Opinions?


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

[Ray Banana]

Thus spake The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net>

> Because I love to see how you get triggered by it. That's all. Have fun,
> arsehole! (:

What a perfect troll. Adorable.
Do we need eternal-september.flame?

[Dan Purgert]

On 2024-01-20, Ray Banana wrote:
> Thus spake The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net>
>
>> Because I love to see how you get triggered by it. That's all. Have fun,
>> arsehole! (:
>
> What a perfect troll. Adorable.
> Do we need eternal-september.flame?

Couldn't hurt :)


--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

[yeti]

Ray Banana <ray...@raybanana.net> writes:

> Thus spake The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net>
>
>> Because I love to see how you get triggered by it. That's all. Have fun,
>> arsehole! (:
>
> What a perfect troll. Adorable.
> Do we need eternal-september.flame?

Some love to get triggered and some love to trigger.

Both sides need to shift down a gear.

[Ray Banana]

Thus spake yeti <ye...@tilde.institute>

Whatever happened to "Don't feed the trolls"?

><((((*>

[yeti]

Ray Banana <ray...@raybanana.net> writes:

> Thus spake yeti <ye...@tilde.institute>

>> Some love to get triggered and some love to trigger.
>> Both sides need to shift down a gear.
>
> Whatever happened to "Don't feed the trolls"?
>
>><((((*>

I see no "either or" there.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <65ab6d8b$1...@news.ausics.net> at Sat, 20 Jan 2024 16:51:55,
noel <delet...@invalid.lan> writes
>those offended by someone top posting have serious control-freak-like
>insecurities they should seek psychological professional help with.
>
>all the shit going on in the world and thats all they can object to, LOL
[]
You don't know that that's all they're objecting to.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

live your dash. ... On your tombstone, there's the date you're born and the
date you die - and in between there's a dash. - a friend quoted by Dustin
Hoffman in Radio Times, 5-11 January 2013

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <fpcmqipv3ee96i327...@4ax.com> at Fri, 19 Jan
2024 21:46:21, Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes

>On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 18:40:19 -0000 (UTC), The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor
><ze...@umbrellix.net> wrote:
>
>> Because I love to see how you get triggered by it.
>
>It's rude to plonk instead of quietly killfiling,
>but I think that plonking is justified in this instance.
>
>Opinions?
>
>

When someone says they're going to killfile someone else (I presume
that's what you mean by plonking), there's always the suspicion that
they don't actually do so. (Not infrequently evidenced by their further
responding to that person.)

[Ray Banana]

Thus spake noel <delet...@invalid.lan>

> those offended by someone top posting have serious control-freak-like
> insecurities they should seek psychological professional help with.
> all the shit going on in the world and thats all they can object to, LOL

> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 15:39:14 +0000, The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor wrote:

[brainless fullquote deleted]

As an Antipodean you are exempted from the no-top-posting rule.

[immibis]

I previously did, but threads got too confusing since he replies a lot
and people reply to him.

[immibis]

On 1/20/24 04:22, Ray Banana wrote:
> Thus spake The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net>
>
>> Because I love to see how you get triggered by it. That's all. Have fun,
>> arsehole! (:
>
> What a perfect troll. Adorable.
> Do we need eternal-september.flame?
>

eternal-september.eternal-flame

[yeti]

I do not bite, I just want to play.

--

Ray Banana <ray...@raybanana.net> writes:

> As an Antipodean you are exempted from the no-top-posting rule.

When I now find chars rotated by 180°, this could become a thing.

[The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 04:22:34 +0100, Ray Banana wrote:

> Thus spake The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net>
>
>> Because I love to see how you get triggered by it. That's all. Have
>> fun,
>> arsehole! (:
>
> What a perfect troll. Adorable.
> Do we need eternal-september.flame?

honestly? quite probably. this thread has become unnecessarily multiplied

[Daniel65]

Ray Banana wrote on 20/1/24 8:41 pm:

> Thus spake noel <delet...@invalid.lan>
>
>> those offended by someone top posting have serious
>> control-freak-like insecurities they should seek psychological
>> professional help with. all the shit going on in the world and
>> thats all they can object to, LOL
>
>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 15:39:14 +0000, The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor
>> wrote:
>
> [brainless fullquote deleted]
>
> As an Antipodean you are exempted from the no-top-posting rule.
>

Gee Whiz!! Should I (an antipodean) be offended by that comment?? Or by
being put in the same bucket??
--
Daniel

[immibis]

/ɯoɔ˙ʇxǝʇuʍopǝpᴉsdn˙ʍʍʍ//:sdʇʇɥ

˙ǝnɔsǝɹ ǝɥʇ oʇ sǝɯoɔ ǝpoɔᴉu∩

¿uʍop ǝpᴉsdn ɹo 'noʎ oʇ lɐɯɹou ʞool sᴉɥʇ sǝop

> When I now find chars rotated by 180°, this could become a thing.

:ǝʇoɹʍ ᴉʇǝʎ 'ㄥᄅ:ƖƖ ㄣᄅ/0ᄅ/Ɩ uO

[ʞlɐʇ˙s-ǝ oʇ-dnʍolloɟ]

[Sn!pe]

Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 18:40:19 -0000 (UTC), The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor
> <ze...@umbrellix.net> wrote:
>
> > Because I love to see how you get triggered by it.
>
> It's rude to plonk instead of quietly killfiling,
> but I think that plonking is justified in this instance.
>
> Opinions?

Clearly it's trolling. I'm sure that everybody here
knows what to do about trolls.

[Followup-To: bit-bucket]

--
^Ď^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

[Sn!pe]

It seems to me that standing on your head is optional, mate.

[fu2: e-s.talk]

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

[Adam H. Kerman]

Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>19 Jan 2024 18:40:19 -0000 (UTC), The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor <ze...@umbrellix.net>:

>>Because I love to see how you get triggered by it.

>It's rude to plonk instead of quietly killfiling,
>but I think that plonking is justified in this instance.

>Opinions?

Don't top post, and don't suck up.

Now I see I've written bottom post and suck down.

[🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈Jen🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈 Dershmender 💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🐶笛🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 13:12:41 +0000, LO AND BEHOLD; WARNING:
"Injection-Info: snipe.eternal-september.org" detected, therefore some
british guy who was apprehended by bobbies in Lancashire having been
accused of molesting several stones and pebbles in the area is on the
loose once again. He may possibly be spotted in his natural
environment of usenet ko0k froups demonstrating his UPA where he
pretends that he's a bird that somehow is also a telepathic/spiritual
conduit for a pet rock named Gordon that he purchased from a Roma
fortune teller while completely fscked on lsd in 1971. He presently
poasts his fascist and white supremacist-leaning sentiments using
upwards of 3 ridiculous nyms including: "snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe)"
DO NOT APPROACH HIM, as he has a pointy beak and is very very angry at
the way that the tide is turning for white privilege and he determined
that the following was of not great importance to WARNING:
"Injection-Info: snipe.eternal-september.org" detected, therefore some
british guy who was apprehended by bobbies in Lancashire having been
accused of molesting several stones and pebbles in the area is on the
loose once again. He may possibly be spotted in his natural
environment of usenet ko0k froups demonstrating his UPA where he
pretends that he's a bird that somehow is also a telepathic/spiritual
conduit for a pet rock named Gordon that he purchased from a Roma
fortune teller while completely fscked on lsd in 1971. He presently
poasts his fascist and white supremacist-leaning sentiments using
upwards of 3 ridiculous nyms including: "snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe)"
DO NOT APPROACH HIM, as he has a pointy beak and is very very angry at
the way that the tide is turning for white privilege and he and
subsequently decided to NOT freely share it with us in
<1qnmv5s.1dv5ztc1az9l0iN%snip...@gmail.com>:

=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡Joy✡Beeson✡<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid>✡wrote:
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡On✡Fri,✡19✡Jan✡2024✡18:40:19✡-0000✡(UTC),✡The✡Bjornsdottirs✡-✡Ellenor
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡<ze...@umbrellix.net>✡wrote:✡
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡Because✡I✡love✡to✡see✡how✡you✡get✡triggered✡by✡it.✡
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡It's✡rude✡to✡plonk✡instead✡of✡quietly✡killfiling,✡but✡I✡think✡that
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡plonking✡is✡justified✡in✡this✡instance.✡Opinions?
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡Clearly✡it's✡trolling.✡✡I'm✡sure✡that✡everybody✡here✡knows✡what✡to✡do
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡about✡trolls.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡[Followup-To:✡bit-bucket]✡
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=✡

Is this like when you routinely bump threads I have started just to say "oh they're still here!"?

Is it ANYTHING like that, trollboi?

--

"If you worried half as much about your own personal life as you do
everyone else's, you might almost be tolerable, obsessed stalker."

-James "Checkmate" Gorman, in perhaps the most ironic and
mentally-challenged statement ever made on Usenet.
<MPG.4001ba2c1...@usnews.blocknews.net>

Golden Killfile, June 2005
KOTM, November 2006
Bob Allisat Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, November 2006
Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart, November 2006
Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart, September 2007
Tony Sidaway Memorial "Drama Queen" Award, November 2006
Busted Urinal Award, April 2007
Order of the Holey Sockpuppet, September 2007
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, September 2006
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, April 2008
Tinfoil Sombrero, February 2007
AUK Mascot, September 2007
Putting the Awards Out of Order to Screw With the OCD Fuckheads, March 2016

[Daniel65]

Ottavio Caruso wrote on 21/1/24 1:10 am:

> It's a joke, you muppet!
>
NO!! Surely you jest!!
--
Daniel

[Blue-Maned_Hawk]

Sn!pe wrote:

> Clearly it's trolling.

Trolling, by definition, can never be proven.


--
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to
Hawk│/
blu.mɛin.dʰak/
│he/him/his/himself/Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site
…just get a fucking ladder!

[Blue-Maned_Hawk]

The Bjornsdottirs - Ellenor wrote:

> honestly? quite probably. this thread has become unnecessarily
> multiplied

I didn't know threads could have alpha channels.

--
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to
Hawk│/
blu.mɛin.dʰak/
│he/him/his/himself/Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site

This SRAM is powered by the honor system!

[William Unruh]

On 2024-01-22, Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Sn!pe wrote:
>
>> Clearly it's trolling.
>
> Trolling, by definition, can never be proven.

But it can be clear.
>
>

[Blue-Maned_Hawk]

This must be a dialectal difference, because i interpret the word ‘clear’
as meaning “unambiguously true”, and therefore also “provably true”.

--
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to
Hawk│/
blu.mɛin.dʰak/
│he/him/his/himself/Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site

Python is a descendent of PDP-11 assembly!

[Sn!pe]

Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> William Unruh wrote:
>
> > On 2024-01-22, Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> Sn!pe wrote:
> >>
> >>> Clearly it's trolling.
> >>
> >> Trolling, by definition, can never be proven.
> >
> > But it can be clear.
> >>
> >>
>
> This must be a dialectal difference, because i interpret the word 'clear'
> as meaning "unambiguously true", and therefore also "provably true".
>

The troll speaks for itself. This is not just my opinion; see:-

Message-ID: <8m7ck4u...@raybanana.net>

- in this thread.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

[Adam H. Kerman]

Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Sn!pe wrote:

>>Clearly it's trolling.

>Trolling, by definition, can never be proven.

There's no such definition. Trolling has a well-known definition.
Perhaps you could refresh your memory.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>William Unruh wrote:
>>On 2024-01-22, Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>Sn!pe wrote:

>>>>Clearly it's trolling.

>>>Trolling, by definition, can never be proven.

>>But it can be clear.

>This must be a dialectal difference, because i interpret the word ‘clear’
>as meaning “unambiguously true”, and therefore also “provably true”.

"This must be a dialectal difference" is a phrase you've used before.
It makes your intent quite clear.

[Sn!pe]

noel <delet...@invalid.lan> wrote:

> sn!pe's memory has already been refreshed
>
> Definition of troll: Adam H Kerman

Hi, noel. [rusty old hook declined]

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

[immibis]

On 1/25/24 23:39, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> William Unruh wrote:
>> On 2024-01-22, Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>>> Clearly it's trolling.
>>>
>>> Trolling, by definition, can never be proven.
>>
>> But it can be clear.
>
> This must be a dialectal difference, because i interpret the word ‘clear’
> as meaning “unambiguously true”, and therefore also “provably true”.
>

It's clear that "this statement is unprovable" is true, but not provably
true. (if it is false, then logical contradictions exist, in which case
everything is true, including things that are also false)

[Adam H. Kerman]

If two sockpuppets are in a forest debating whether what they are doing
is trolling is true but not provable, have they made a sound?

[Sn!pe]

Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

> immibis <ne...@immibis.com> wrote:
> >On 1/25/24 23:39, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> >>William Unruh wrote:
> >>>2024-01-22, Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>Sn!pe wrote:
>
> >>>>>Clearly it's trolling.
>
> >>>>Trolling, by definition, can never be proven.
>
> >>>But it can be clear.
>
> >>This must be a dialectal difference, because i interpret the word

> >>╢clearâ•˙ as meaning ╲unambiguously true╡, and therefore also
> >>╲provably true╡.

>
> >It's clear that "this statement is unprovable" is true, but not provably
> >true. (if it is false, then logical contradictions exist, in which case
> >everything is true, including things that are also false)
>
> If two sockpuppets are in a forest debating whether what they are doing
> is trolling is true but not provable, have they made a sound?

I wonder what the Pembroke contingent would say about that.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

[Blue-Maned_Hawk]

Yes: to avoid confusion.

--
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to
Hawk│/
blu.mɛin.dʰak/
│he/him/his/himself/Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site

These neutrinos were freshly produced by a local source just eight minutes
ago!

[Blue-Maned_Hawk]

Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> If two sockpuppets are in a forest debating whether what they are doing
> is trolling is true but not provable, have they made a sound?

I can say with great confidence that neither of us is sticking our hand up
the other.

--
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to
Hawk│/
blu.mɛin.dʰak/
│he/him/his/himself/Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site

Wikipedia's list of vampires in folklore and fiction lists The Count from
Sesame street as “no[t inhabited by a demon], but inhabited by a human
hand”.

[Blue-Maned_Hawk]

As best i understand it, a troll is somebody who intentionally behaves
dishonestly to upset others for the troll's own sadistic pleasure. Since
whether or not somebody is trolling is dependent upon their intention, and
intentionality is contained entirely within the mind of the person who is
performing the actions, it cannot be proven unless the person doing the
actions self-admits to being a troll.

--
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to
Hawk│/
blu.mɛin.dʰak/
│he/him/his/himself/Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site

Datatypes are a social construct.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>William Unruh wrote:
>>>>On 2024-01-22, Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>Sn!pe wrote:

>>>>>>Clearly it's trolling.

>>>>>Trolling, by definition, can never be proven.

>>>>But it can be clear.

>>>This must be a dialectal difference, because i interpret the word
>>>‘clear’ as meaning “unambiguously true”, and therefore also
>>>“provably true”.

>>"This must be a dialectal difference" is a phrase you've used before.
>>It makes your intent quite clear.

>Yes: to avoid confusion.

No one is unclear about what you are, what you are not, and what you
have been doing. You didn't "avoid confusion" as no one had been
confused to begin with. No one asked you to reinterpret ordinary words
and concepts for them, and no one wants your reinterpretation.

[Daniel65]

Adam H. Kerman wrote on 27/1/24 6:02 am:

> immibis <ne...@immibis.com> wrote:
>> On 1/25/24 23:39, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>>> William Unruh wrote:
>>>> 2024-01-22, Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluema...@invalid.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Sn!pe wrote:
>
>>>>>> Clearly it's trolling.
>
>>>>> Trolling, by definition, can never be proven.
>
>>>> But it can be clear.
>
>>> This must be a dialectal difference, because i interpret the word

>>> ‘clear’ as meaning “unambiguously true†, and therefore
>>> also “provably true†.

>
>> It's clear that "this statement is unprovable" is true, but not
>> provably true. (if it is false, then logical contradictions exist,
>> in which case everything is true, including things that are also
>> false)
>
> If two sockpuppets are in a forest debating whether what they are
> doing is trolling is true but not provable, have they made a sound?
>

I'm guessing ....NO!! (as this is a TEXT-based medium!! ;-P (although my
keyboard is a bit Klicky-Klacky!!)
--
Daniel

[Blue-Maned_Hawk]

Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> No one is unclear about what you are, what you are not, and what you
> have been doing. You didn't "avoid confusion" as no one had been
> confused to begin with. No one asked you to reinterpret ordinary words
> and concepts for them, and no one wants your reinterpretation.

Mate, i was genuinely, honestly confused. I don't know how i can prove
that i was being genuine…or why i should need to prove that in the first
place. Faceless words communicate nuance poorly; perhaps my being genuine
would have been more clear in the format of a videocall or an in-person
discussion.

--
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to
Hawk│/
blu.mɛin.dʰak/
│he/him/his/himself/Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site

The suspense has been killing me since the 1500's!

[Seamus]

On 1/27/24 23:34, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
>> No one is unclear about what you are, what you are not, and what you
>> have been doing. You didn't "avoid confusion" as no one had been
>> confused to begin with. No one asked you to reinterpret ordinary words
>> and concepts for them, and no one wants your reinterpretation.
>
> Mate, i was genuinely, honestly confused. I don't know how i can prove
> that i was being genuine…or why i should need to prove that in the first
> place. Faceless words communicate nuance poorly; perhaps my being genuine
> would have been more clear in the format of a videocall or an in-person
> discussion.
>

Don't forget to set your name to Seamus when responding to AHK.

[Sn!pe]

Seamus <ne...@immibis.com> wrote:

> Don't forget to set your name to Seamus when responding to AHK.

Pwned.

[yeti]

Seamus <ne...@immibis.com> writes:

> Don't forget to set your name to Seamus when responding to AHK.

Why answer at all?

--
I do not bite, I just want to play.

[Blue-Maned_Hawk]

What

--
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to
Hawk│/
blu.mɛin.dʰak/
│he/him/his/himself/Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site

(For richer flavor, use milk or less water.)