Building the stars?
Ben Wilson
Traveller5 and thinking we could be putting together a star map, etc.
I'm thinking of contriving one for the core worlds...
--
Ben Wilson
"We cannot determine the character or nature of a system within
itself. Efforts to do so will only generate confusion and disorder."
Boyd
Aaron Clausen
Aaron Clausen
Ben Wilson
Traveller5 discussion group is suggesting a different setting that the
Third Imperium they've been operating under for the past 30 years. I
don't think we'd make the cut, but the conversation is interesting.
Traveller came out without a setting, and a setting followed that
became canon. We were considering making a Fudge setting, which sort
of fell off on Fudge. We agreed on a setting approach that made it
possible for campaigns to operate independent of the main storyline.
Their complaint is that they are too closely bound to the main story
line.
So, as settings go, we are well placed to be a replacement.
[map]: http://www.travellermap.com/
Aaron Clausen
around Earth. What was more useful was a pamphlet with the same star
list, but with co-ordinates and spectra. They had an okay star list
based on the Gleiss list. There are better sources out there now, of
course.
But since we're basically going to be inventing this out of
whole-cloth, I don't think we need be bound by any real star map, at
least for the Core Worlds, which I think it's pretty clear are
"geographically" nowhere near Earth.
Aaron Clausen
Ben Wilson
principle of jump drives that could go from 1-6 parsecs at a jump; all
jumps taking a week.
The principle I've been working off of is that the distance in the
Soup does not translate to the realspace distance. Alpha Centauri may
be 4 lys away, but could be thousands of "paces" in the Soup (a pace
being roughly one hour of travel in the Soup). A system in Andromeda
may be millions of light years away; but may only be a few hundred
paces away.
So, I assume that we should create a few dozen systems, and try to
come up with an arrangement. That might be rather difficult. I'm going
to try to come up with a Traveller-based system generator in the next
few days. To arrange, there needs to be some criteria. We need to
think harder on the logistics of space travel. I like the Traveller
approach of fusion drives for most of the work (requiring gas giants,
etc.). We've agreed on the mechanics of Soup travel, but not exactly
the logistics.
Aaron Clausen
The one thing pretty much all SF FTL systems (other than star
gates/wormholes) in common is a kind of "rate limit". I think we
discussed this very early on, particularly for the First Expanse, to
make interstellar travel a lot like early trans-Atlantic travel in the
Age of Colonialism.
The way you view the Soup has more in common with Frank Herbert's FTL
system in the Dune series. In that series, basically the Empire
pretty much contains habitable worlds throughout the Universe. This
would be different than, say, the Empire in Asimov's Foundation
series, or the interstellar republic/empire/whatever of Star Wars,
which are essentially just one galaxy.
I am quite happy to throw out any notion of real space geographical
limitations here, and move towards the Soup connecting systems whose
real space distances could be measured in hundreds of millions of
light years, while making neighboring systems so distant in Soup space
as to make direct travel impossible.
Ultimately this fits in very well with the idea that complex
computational systems like Dio En Mashino were needed, and that
between Soup pollution and the failing technological capabilities of
the First Imperium, FTL travel was again stunted, and in many places,
outright eliminated.
One side effect of this could very well be that no one really knows
where many worlds are. The calculations needed in some cases to
determine where in real space two worlds are would probably become so
complex that even at the height of the First Imperium, no computer was
capable of it.
This does lead to an interesting thought. We know from our loose time
line that a new form of FTL travel will come into play. How about not
so much a new way, as much as a more advanced civilization learns how
to harness what everyone used to call Soup pollution, and thus can
literally create links between any two worlds at whim, meaning real
space and hyperspace essentially, for navigational purposes, become
the same thing again.
Aaron Clausen
Ben Wilson
<mightym...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ah, some meat and potatoes discussion.
>
> The one thing pretty much all SF FTL systems (other than star
> gates/wormholes) in common is a kind of "rate limit". I think we
> discussed this very early on, particularly for the First Expanse, to
> make interstellar travel a lot like early trans-Atlantic travel in the
> Age of Colonialism.
>
> The way you view the Soup has more in common with Frank Herbert's FTL
> system in the Dune series. In that series, basically the Empire
> pretty much contains habitable worlds throughout the Universe. This
> would be different than, say, the Empire in Asimov's Foundation
> series, or the interstellar republic/empire/whatever of Star Wars,
> which are essentially just one galaxy.
The net effect is as you say, Terradoma is scattered, rather than
being in one region. Or rather, _can_ be scattered, as we could assert
a limitation that human technology constrains its routes to within the
galaxy. More on this in a moment.
My understanding of reading Traveller is that it relies on the
Foundation approach. My understanding of Dune is the better you can
fold, the faster you can travel.[dune] The ship does not move, per se.
I think we have the chaos of Dune's travel[holtzman], and I submit the
use of gravametics allows for some artificial gravity, also consistent
with Holtzman. But, our ships do not travel instantaneously; there is
time in the Soup. I think we're a little closer to wormholes in that
we're finding a shortcut; with travel times being the distance between
the folds.[worm] It's just convenient that when viewed from the
"Soup," the various parts of realspace are at different distances
(nearby stars are not necessarily nearby in the Soup). The net result
is somewhere between Dune and Foundation. (BTW, I've read several
books of the Foundation series, but not looked at Dune.)
Travel down a known route has a known pace count (distance). The
time/distance can be influenced by a specific trip based on the
outcome criteria.[brane]
[dune]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_(novel) "Navigators use the
spice melange to safely plot a course for the Guild's heighliner ships
via prescience using "foldspace" technology, which allows
instantaneous travel to anywhere in the universe."
[holtzman]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holtzman_effect
[worm]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole
[brane]: http://espacesociety.org/NaturalSciences/BraneHopping
> I am quite happy to throw out any notion of real space geographical
> limitations here, and move towards the Soup connecting systems whose
> real space distances could be measured in hundreds of millions of
> light years, while making neighboring systems so distant in Soup space
> as to make direct travel impossible.
>
> Ultimately this fits in very well with the idea that complex
> computational systems like Dio En Mashino were needed, and that
> between Soup pollution and the failing technological capabilities of
> the First Imperium, FTL travel was again stunted, and in many places,
> outright eliminated.
>
> One side effect of this could very well be that no one really knows
> where many worlds are. The calculations needed in some cases to
> determine where in real space two worlds are would probably become so
> complex that even at the height of the First Imperium, no computer was
> capable of it.
you could identify landmarks (e.g. Andromeda) that could be used to
identify approximate location in the Milky Way (a.k.a. The Way). Once
you're outside The Way, actual location is a guess (unless the aspect
to Andromeda was nearly the same as The Way, which I consider
doubtful). As a social convention, perhaps humanity preferred to
inhabit systems they knew were within The Way. Splinter groups could
still be outside.
Here's a mind bender for you... Follow these assumptions. First, the
Imperial Core are worlds that are accessible in reasonable times via
STL; which should be within a few light years. In the Soup, their
distances could also be Near.... and their paths to major clusters of
human space is Near or Medium (within 1000 paces, which is ~1000
hours, or 41 days)[pace]. It might make sense that humanity focused on
a Soup Nexus that became the Imperial Core Worlds.
The distances suggest clusters of systems that are Near, joined by
long routes that are Medium and beyond...
[pace]: http://espacesociety.org/NaturalSciences/SpaceTravel#toc2
> This does lead to an interesting thought. We know from our loose time
> line that a new form of FTL travel will come into play. How about not
> so much a new way, as much as a more advanced civilization learns how
> to harness what everyone used to call Soup pollution, and thus can
> literally create links between any two worlds at whim, meaning real
> space and hyperspace essentially, for navigational purposes, become
> the same thing again.
detail over the "new" FTL approach; but vaguely recall it being
Trek-like. But, what your suggesting is more plausible given our
methods.
Aaron Clausen
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 11:55, Ben Wilson <dau...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My understanding of reading Traveller is that it relies on the
> Foundation approach. My understanding of Dune is the better you can
> fold, the faster you can travel.[dune] The ship does not move, per se.
> I think we have the chaos of Dune's travel[holtzman], and I submit the
> use of gravametics allows for some artificial gravity, also consistent
> with Holtzman. But, our ships do not travel instantaneously; there is
> time in the Soup. I think we're a little closer to wormholes in that
> we're finding a shortcut; with travel times being the distance between
> the folds.[worm] It's just convenient that when viewed from the
> "Soup," the various parts of realspace are at different distances
> (nearby stars are not necessarily nearby in the Soup). The net result
> is somewhere between Dune and Foundation. (BTW, I've read several
> books of the Foundation series, but not looked at Dune.)
Okay, this makes some sense to me.
<snip>
>>
>> One side effect of this could very well be that no one really knows
>> where many worlds are. The calculations needed in some cases to
>> determine where in real space two worlds are would probably become so
>> complex that even at the height of the First Imperium, no computer was
>> capable of it.
>
> Yeah, I thought of that a while ago. If you were within the Milky Way,
> you could identify landmarks (e.g. Andromeda) that could be used to
> identify approximate location in the Milky Way (a.k.a. The Way). Once
> you're outside The Way, actual location is a guess (unless the aspect
> to Andromeda was nearly the same as The Way, which I consider
> doubtful). As a social convention, perhaps humanity preferred to
> inhabit systems they knew were within The Way. Splinter groups could
> still be outside.
I'm a little uneasy about that, mainly because the lesson of human
colonialism is that people will spread into every environ they can.
>
> Here's a mind bender for you... Follow these assumptions. First, the
> Imperial Core are worlds that are accessible in reasonable times via
> STL; which should be within a few light years. In the Soup, their
> distances could also be Near.... and their paths to major clusters of
> human space is Near or Medium (within 1000 paces, which is ~1000
> hours, or 41 days)[pace]. It might make sense that humanity focused on
> a Soup Nexus that became the Imperial Core Worlds.
Okay.
>
> The distances suggest clusters of systems that are Near, joined by
> long routes that are Medium and beyond...
>
> [pace]: http://espacesociety.org/NaturalSciences/SpaceTravel#toc2
Let's surmise that the Soup is influenced by gravity. Where you have
star clusters, super-massive stars, black holes, etc. which represent
substantial gravity wells, you have a tendency for a larger number of
routes through the Soup. If the Core Worlds are in a cluster, that
means that the individual gravity well of their stars sums up and thus
you have not only normal space geometric proximity, but also Soup
space proximity. By the same token, outlier systems with lesser
gravity wells would be "further" in Soup geometry.
This would create a situation in which the first worlds colonized by
STL; Alpha Centauri, Epsilon Indi, Epsilon Eridani, etc. would be
close enough to each other (though definitely not a cluster) that it
lead to them being easier to navigate to in Soup space.
>
>> This does lead to an interesting thought. We know from our loose time
>> line that a new form of FTL travel will come into play. How about not
>> so much a new way, as much as a more advanced civilization learns how
>> to harness what everyone used to call Soup pollution, and thus can
>> literally create links between any two worlds at whim, meaning real
>> space and hyperspace essentially, for navigational purposes, become
>> the same thing again.
>
> That does put a wrinkle in it. I don't remember our getting into much
> detail over the "new" FTL approach; but vaguely recall it being
> Trek-like. But, what your suggesting is more plausible given our
> methods.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@gmail.com
Ben Wilson
<mightym...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> doubtful). As a social convention, perhaps humanity preferred to
>> inhabit systems they knew were within The Way. Splinter groups could
>> still be outside.
>
> I'm a little uneasy about that, mainly because the lesson of human
> colonialism is that people will spread into every environ they can.
I agree. But, perhaps governments try to constrain settlements to
Milky Way; sort of like the British trying to restrain the Americans
to the East of the Appalachian Mountains. The Americans routinely
ignored this restriction. So, we find frequent settlement outside the
Milky Way despite Government attempt to restrict.
[snip]
>>
>> The distances suggest clusters of systems that are Near, joined by
>> long routes that are Medium and beyond...
>>
>> [pace]: http://espacesociety.org/NaturalSciences/SpaceTravel#toc2
>
> Let's surmise that the Soup is influenced by gravity. Where you have
> star clusters, super-massive stars, black holes, etc. which represent
> substantial gravity wells, you have a tendency for a larger number of
> routes through the Soup. If the Core Worlds are in a cluster, that
> means that the individual gravity well of their stars sums up and thus
> you have not only normal space geometric proximity, but also Soup
> space proximity. By the same token, outlier systems with lesser
> gravity wells would be "further" in Soup geometry.
As Soup is influenced by gravity, though high gravity hinders.[GIE]
But, that doesn't take into account Lagrange Points, which are areas
where gravity is nullified.[LP] I think this would allow fixing jump
points in a system, creating a more predictable entry area. That is, a
ship could travel to a system and emerge outside the safe GIE zone, or
it can travel to one of the Lagrange Points between the star and the
largest planet in the system. When you've a multi-star system, the LPs
are based on the stars, not planets. Thus a system like we're
proposing for the Core Worlds would have a series of LPs; making it a
major Soup hub.
> This would create a situation in which the first worlds colonized by
> STL; Alpha Centauri, Epsilon Indi, Epsilon Eridani, etc. would be
> close enough to each other (though definitely not a cluster) that it
> lead to them being easier to navigate to in Soup space.
The Traveller way is to point at a star within 6 parsecs away and
emerge at a point 100 radii from the gravity target. So, Traveller is
gravity based. The key difference is Soup assumes shortening distance
by short-cutting through another substance. Traveller seems to suggest
hyperspace just allows a fixed speed (1 week, regardless of distance,
distance based on the power of the engine) between two points. Thus,
Traveller is 3D; Espace is 4D---or 3D where the planes are bent.
The advantage of Espace's mechanics is it is arbitrary whether two
stars are accessible via the Soup. So, we can determine by fiat
whether Alpha Centauri is Soup-proximate to Earth. Thus, we can
isolate entire systems or webs of systems based on the Soup and soup
pollution.
[snip]
[GIE]: http://espacesociety.org/NaturalSciences/GravatonicInterloquiterEquation;
http://espacesociety.org/NaturalSciences/BraneHopping#toc3
[LP]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point
Aaron Clausen
pretty much arbitrary?
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@gmail.com
Ben Wilson
The arbitrariness was part of our original discussion; but that was
five years ago. The idea was to allow GMs (if we got that far) to be
able to use the setting without having to fit into the canon.
For our current discussion, I'm hoping to reach at the canon systems and routes.