The Eprdctn folks need a wiki

[susan neuhaus]

The wiki idea has been tossed about for months. We really need neutral territory to share information. 

1. It will help us little guys compete with the big players who get preferential treatment (information-wise) from the distributors. 
2. It will promote better quality in ebooks overall if ebook producers have good information.
   
3. It will help separate people who've been in the trenches from poseurs, of whom there suddenly seems to be quite a few. (On LinkedIn, someone actually told an author that eReaders don't support images.)
4. It could set the stage for an Eprdctn event in the future if Colleen was serious : )

I can start it. There's a great, free, Google template that we could just populate. It has most of what we'd need, including instructions on updating, etc. Obviously we'd replace the name, logos and the pictures of other people. 

https://sites.google.com/site/evolverwiki/

Is this a good idea? 

Would people be willing to contribute? Writing descriptions, taking turns moderating, finding art for the banner. I'm a fair web designer and can muck about in the code. Wish I could take it over full time, but weirdly my business partner wants billable hours and that pesky family expects dinner and laundry and all kinds of nonsense, so I don't want to launch into this unless there are some people who would help.

[Tobias Stevenson]

I talked with Joshua about this in the past and if it was neutral territory I could extend the some of the docs I create internally for eBA to the #ePrdctn wiki. I've always been interested. As long as it isn't too much of a time consumer.

Toby Stevenson
Digital Architect
eBookArchitects.com
1-(713)-725-7977

[susan neuhaus]

Toby,

  Thanks. Thats very generous. You guys rock. Others have made similar offers. Its that time consumer part of it. hmmm.  Susan

[BookDesignGirl]

This is so true - great points.

I can help but will say up front that I'm super busy through June and
July with projects and deadlines. After those commitments I will be
able to be an active contributor.

FYI - most people in this group have their email settings set to not
receive mail but they will want to know about this discussion...

On Jun 3, 5:41 pm, susan neuhaus <susan.neustu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The wiki idea has been tossed about for months. We really need neutral
> territory to share information.
>

>    1. It will help us little guys compete with the big players who get

>    preferential treatment (information-wise) from the distributors.

>    2. It will promote better quality in ebooks overall if ebook producers
>    have good information.
>    3. It will help separate people who've been in the trenches from poseurs,

>    of whom there suddenly seems to be quite a few. (On LinkedIn, someone
>    actually told an author that eReaders don't support images.)

>    4. It could set the stage for an Eprdctn event in the future if Colleen

>    was serious : )
>
> I can start it. There's a great, free, Google template that we could just
> populate. It has most of what we'd need, including instructions on updating,
> etc. Obviously we'd replace the name, logos and the pictures of other

> people.https://sites.google.com/site/evolverwiki/

[susan neuhaus]

Wow, we really got a lot of replies from the #eprdctn group when Tina brought it up this week. I'm a tad overwhelmed. Perhaps this is bigger than I thought?

Is there some bigger player we can pull in? How about DBW? Do you think they would host this, and would that be neutral territory?

[Tobias Stevenson]

I still like the idea of hosting on Google sites. I understand you would need an account on Google to post but you would need an account via any service. Also, Google is in use by the ePub Working Group (they don't seem to mind) as well as our calendar and Google group is already there. Same ecosystem. If someone is tin hat kinda worried they can create a Google account with as many fake credentials as they want and use that. They don't have to give Google valid information.

Also, Susan, would you be willing to host ePrdctn hour on the 22nd?

Toby Stevenson
Digital Architect
eBookArchitects.com
1-(713)-725-7977

[Liz Castro]

Hi everybody:

I'm of two (more? :) minds about a wiki in "neutral" territory. I
think sharing information is great, and I try to share as much as I
can, particularly on Twitter, but also through my blog.

And I completely understand the need for "neutral" territory, but I'm
not sure it exists. Perhaps Twitter is neutral territory, but could
any wiki really be, since it requires that someone be the
administrator and/or organizer, and therefore hold the keys?

The other thing is that a wiki is a lot of work, and needs constant
supervision. We're all up to our eyeballs in many different kinds of
projects. Is there a(nother) way to share #eprdctn information
collaboratively in a way that's comfortable and even beneficial for
all? I suspect that we're all coming at this from different
directions, and we may have many different goals. Perhaps it would
help to share our goals so we know where we're trying to go?

Some of mine are:

• having a place to collect little persnickety bits of #eprdctn
related technical details that I can't ever quite remember the proper
syntax for by heart

• sharing information that I've learned

• learning from other people

• compiling #eprdctn related information in books and other learning
materials that I can publish and yes, sell

• attracting new readers who might want to buy my books and other
educational material

What are the rest of you looking for in an #eprdctn wiki?

best regards,
Liz

http://www.elizabethcastro.com/epub
http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com

[susan neuhaus]

Liz,

  I think you've hit the nail on the head, with the amount of work and supervision needed for a wiki.

-I'd simply like to have all this information available to me when I need it.

-I'd like to help level the playing field for the independent ebook professionals, by pooling our resources.

If there's another format easier to create and administer than a wiki, it would be great.

Susan

[BookDesignGirl]

Liz,

For me, I just want:

- a place to refer to when I need an answer
- a place to post solutions that I come across (why I started my blog,
but if 20 of us are updating to our own blogs it is obviously not
ideal)
- a community to help counter the idea that ebook work has to be
outsourced in bulk out of the country and promote independent ebook
professionals and the quality of their work

I'm not in it except for open sharing of information so it doesn't
matter to me who hosts the wiki as long as I don't have to pay to have
access. And if someone (including Liz) wants to publish what I post
it's OK by me because I'm not making a living from publishing it
myself. Goodness knows most of my workflow is based on Liz's work
(both published and unpublished).

So long story short, I would give up a neutral location in exchange
for someone like Liz who would be active in keeping it running. I'm
just a little piece of this puzzle, though, so I'll go with what the
community wants.

Best,
Colleen

[susan neuhaus]

Colleen/Liz,

  "I would give up a neutral location in exchange 

for someone like Liz who would be active in keeping it running."

I thought so too, but weirdly, when Liz set up the wiki, no one contributed. When I asked around, I got vague mentions of "neutral" territory. I'm not sure I get it myself.

Susan

[Tina Henderson]

Hi all,

I've mentioned to a few of you that I'd planned to be more involved in
#eprdctn this summer. Unfortunately, I only had one free week before I
was overloaded with print work again. (These are ongoing, not new
projects.) But these projects will get wrapped up before too long and
I would like to contribute more, especially in regards to collecting
and posting information.

I agree this is a huge job and it also doesn't matter to me who hosts
the wiki.

My goals in regards to a wiki:

- easily find the info. I need
- share info. when I discover it
- level the playing field, as Susan mentioned
- help educate people not involved in #eprdctn about how difficult and
time-consuming it can be

Thanks all,
Tina

[Liz Castro]

Well, I'm happy to maintain and host and share and give credit to
whoever wants to participate. I've moved the wiki to a new address, as
the earlier one was 1) too specifically named and 2) didn't have
enough structure.

Here's the new one: http://www.elizabethcastro.com/epub/eprdctnwiki/

I've only barely started it, but I'll try to keep adding to it, now
that you all got me thinking about what I want it for. Anyone who
wants a password to edit (I can't keep watch close enough to keep the
spammers out without one), just let me know.

And I know it's only been a few hours since we restarted this and I've
only heard from a few of you ... this doesn't necessarily have to be
the only answer. But I would love to start putting stuff somewhere to
keep track of it all. It's leaking out of the edges of my brain as it
is. And favoriting tweets and using little scraps of paper is so not
doing it.

More comments welcome, of course.

best,
Liz

[Tobias Stevenson]

Hey #eprdctn folks,

   I was the one who brought up the "neutral" territory issue. You can never make something completely neutral. One can only display a willingness to be as neutral as possible. I agree that someone will need to maintain the keys. I just want to express my concerns about two of Liz's bullet points:

• compiling #eprdctn related information in books and other learning materials that I can publish and yes, sell

The original wiki you had seemed to have ads or a place where ads would end up going. Would you be promoting your books on the front of this wiki? If I wanted to say, push Joshua's book, would it get the same ad space you give yours? What about other people pushing their books or services? Who would maintain this and keep it fair and objective?

• attracting new readers who might want to buy my books and other educational material

   While it is O.K. for you to push your company via the #eprdctn tag on twitter, I don't think we should be pushing our companies, brands, products on the wiki. That is something we do not want to see. A wiki is for freely available information, and should be licensed under Creative Commons. If you choose to compile the information later into a book, that is fine (with attribution). I just never want to see a wiki page at the bottom that reads "For more information buy..."

   Currently, the way the wiki is set up it will provide SEO for Liz's main website by traveling there. We (eBook Architects) could effectively be contributing to our demise in SEO and business by contributing to the popularity of the wiki and adding our documents. A neutral web address is also something I would like the wiki to have, so that everyone in the #eprdctn community can feel comfortable about contributing without hurting their business.

   I do a lot of work on internal scripts, processes and documentation that I would like to share with the rest of the industry. This is a constant battle in a company environment where information is often viewed as a valuable resource, not to be handed out freely on a wiki. Joshua and I both come from a past of using open source software and contributing to it (side note: I was able to convince my last company to contribute 20,000 in funding to the WINE project for patch fixes), but there is still always the question, "are you giving away the farm?". If your competitors will end up benefiting and not contributing, that may be the case. I want to make sure that I can defend this wiki and say to Liz, Keith, Liza and the rest of #eprdctn that this wiki does not place any more value on our company than it does on yours.

   I really don't want to sound like I am against you specifically Liz. In fact I push your book and blog posts on our eBook Ninjas podcast that is heavily supported by eBook Architect's funds. You are a heavy hitter in the industry, which is why I am so scared of you. :)

   So, If I ended the email here it would be harsh. I don't want to just be one of those vocal people who poops on other people's ideas and never contributes to the solution. We need neutral territory. We need a wiki setup, hosting, and maintenance. I think MobileRead.com would be a good solution. The guys over there already have a great wiki with a large user base. How about we contribute to an already existing wiki in the industry? We can ask them to create a sub section under the quick links here http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/Main_Page that is eProduction (#eprdctn) or the likes. Joshua is willing to donate a domain name (www.eprdctn.org) that would just auto-forward to the sub section of this wiki. It would be done with private registration so that you would not see our company, Joshua's affiliation, with the address.

   This is a suggestion but I think it tackles all the issues and gives an example of what I consider "neutral" territory.

Thanks,

Toby Stevenson
Digital Architect
eBookArchitects.com
1-(713)-725-7977

[susan neuhaus]

Toby,

  I love the idea of becoming part of MobileRead forums, it beats reinventing the wheel (wiki). We might attract some new folks to the endeavor.

  The downside for me is that it doesn't feel like "ours," but then, a wiki really would belong to the larger ebook production community anyway.

Susan Neuhaus

Neustudio.com

[BookDesignGirl]

Thanks Toby - what you said makes a lot of sense, thanks for putting
it out there -- now I understand. Like you said, I'm a big fan of you
Liz and supporter too. That said, adding to an already existing site
like MobileRead.com and also making everyone feel comfortable in a
neutral territory sounds like the way to go -- keeping the wiki site
active and keeping everyone in the loop sounds like the two common
goals of our community and they can be accomplished going that route.
We have a wonderful, supportive, and friendly community and I think we
do a good job of keeping it that way while supporting our own
interests and livelihoods. So I'll end by saying anything that keeps
it that way gets my vote.