God and Consciousness.

[socratus]

God and Consciousness.

Mr. ‘FF ’ wrote:
‘ There is only one place where "God" has been
demonstrated, even proven to exist - in human brains.’
=== .
God and Consciousness.

It seems you are right saying: ‘There is only one place
where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven
to exist - in human brains.’
Why? Because if God exist, HE /SHE/ IT must be
in every place it means in human brains too.
Question: is it possible to prove this ?
I will try.
Our brain works on dualistic basis: usually consciousness
(logically) and rarely unconsciousness ( at first it seems
illogically but at last it shows as very wise act) .
In his book ‘ The Holographic Universe’ Michael Talbot
on the page 160 explained this situation in such way:
‘ Contrary to what everyone knows it is so, it may not be
the brain that produce consciousness, but rather consciousness
that creates the appearance of the brain - . . . .’
But as the ‘Bhagavad Gita’ says:
Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form.
They do not know My transcendental nature and
My supreme dominion over all that be.
/ Chapter 9. Text 11./
========== . .
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23624&st=15
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2547&st=105
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2548

================== . .

[einseele]

Argumentum Ornitologicum

I close my eyes and so I see a flock of birds. The vision elapses a
second, may be less; I don´t know how many birds I saw. Was the number
of birds definite or indefinite? The problem involves the existence of
God. If God exists, the number is definite, because God knows how many
birds I did saw. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite,
because no one could have that counted. At any rate I saw less than
ten birds (let´s say) and more than one, but I did not see nine,
eight, seven, six, five, four, three or two birds. I saw a number
between ten and one, which is not nine , eight, seven, six, five, and
so on. That integer is inconceivable. Therfore, God exists.

[ornamentalmind]

*** chuckles***

And, since the very term “Ornitologicum” could be interpreted as an ad
hominem … implying I’m for the birds….;-), I thought I’d add a few
more proofs for god:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

> >http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23624&st=15http://www.ph...
>
> > ================== . .- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[einseele]

Hi orn

Nice, I love proofs of God, not those too scientific :-) but those
from non believers as this was the case

I dont like of course all those boring proofs of not existence of god.

Whatever.

What I consider yes a piece of talk is Abraham telling his wife that
God said to him in private, to lie down with Hagar so to conceive an
heir :-)

And now, some 6000 years away (or million, who cares ) persons blow
themselves, trying to kill the rest because that promise

heyy I`m not joking, holy war is just warming up

[Ellen Clark]

You could also raise a nice dictatorship (like Kim Jong Il or Mugabe) and not feel guilty about any of the sub species you get rid of...The twentieth century was full of that ideology and those types of dictatorships - too bad if you got on the wrong end...
 
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:05:27 -0800
> Subject: [epistemology 10930] Re: God and Consciousness.
> From: ornamen...@yahoo.com
> To: episte...@googlegroups.com

[Robert Henry]

Not to break in here, but I must interject. You say God only exists
in the human brain. My o my, what what little confidence you have of
the contents of your brain. After all, are not the very perceptions
you are experiencing nothing more than the 'content of your brain.?'

And please do not point to satyrs, fauns and purple alligators as
reasons to distrust the content of the brain. For what causes these
beliefs in the first place? I see many things with my eyes that are
not 'as they appear.' Consider St. Augustine's oar in the water that
appears bent but is ACTUALLY straight. I would think the same could
be said of what the mind, in its most puerile faculty-the imagination,
is often subjected to.

--
Never Look to a motionless face for memories,
Life is found in the pace, not the chemistry
Robert Lewis Henry

[Robert Henry]

By the way, what is Argumentum (presumably ad) Ornitologicum?

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:30 PM, einseele <eins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

[Enrique Fynn]

There is no way of proving the non-existence of something that there isn't, or something inconceivable such as God or any supra-natural entity that ever has being maded up by humans (or not) I don't know, I think that this kind of arguments (in favor or not) of God's existence is boring and useless, there is no meaning in discussing such things, Ok... maybe some of us didn't have enought discussion about those themas, but nevertheless is useless.

Att;
Enrique Fynn.
--
Artificial intelligence laboratory
Federal University of Uberlândia
"Even a stopped clock is right twice a
day."

2009/11/5 einseele <eins...@gmail.com>

[Ellen Clark]

I cannot understand holy war, but after Hitler (atheist,pagan), Stalin, Mao, Pol, Kim, Enver, gosh - just about every educated government but the U.S. was atheist and genocidal (some still), and the non Judeo Christian countries in pagan times were brutal...do you stupidly think people can bring about world peace on their own after last century...There is no monogamy in relationships anymore...people have no use for anyone else - and why should they? No love, no families, shallow hookups, technologies that Mengele and Ceucescu would have killed for...you guys have a rotten track record - instead of people loving each other and commiting to each other - the adage should be screw everyone but thyself...when I was younger, I wanted one man to commit to and every child would be sacrosanct...good luck today! It is too easy to label any believer in god as a nutcase but what is your reasoning for living? How do you prove your case in light of Communism or Facism or paganism which were brutal societies?
 
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:47:22 -0800
> Subject: [epistemology 10931] Re: God and Consciousness.
> From: eins...@gmail.com
> To: episte...@googlegroups.com

[ornamentalmind]

My my, nothing like a little irony, hyperbole and iconoclasm to bring
dogma defenders out of the woodwork!

Issues with recent posts include:

1. The use of texts as authoritative proof of anything. . . texts from
mystics like Talbot to revealed texts like the Bhagavada Gita. Even
though current day scientific texts are not addressed in this thread,
I include them.
2. Attempts at proofs of anything or against anything and their nature
when it comes to epistemology.
3. The apparent dichotomy of ‘existence’ (of anything) being in the
mind or not in the mind.
4. Assumptions about ‘mind’ in general.
5. Either/or epistemology.
6. Beliefs about atheism vs. theism RE: ethics, wars and proofs.
7. Theological assumptions when it comes to cause and effects such as
lack of religious beliefs and war, religious beliefs and peace and
other classes of ‘morality’.
8. Tenets involved with reason(s) for and causes of living.
9. Comparisons of and basis of Social structures such as Fascism,
Capitalism, Communism and associated theological beliefs.
10. Notions of boredom and uselessness in conjunction with
epistemology.
11. Beliefs about current day ethos contrasted to the ethos of
previous times and cultures.

When I started this post, I was going to address all of these points
associated with the last few posts. Alas, it is too great a task. For
now, I will just point at what to me appears to be tacitly assumed
‘truths’. . . perhaps the term tenets is preferable…used by the
posters. In most cases I can only guess that these underlying beliefs
are not well examined.

On Nov 5, 1:13 pm, Ellen Clark <ellen_clark...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I cannot understand holy war, but after Hitler (atheist,pagan), Stalin, Mao, Pol, Kim, Enver, gosh - just about every educated government but the U.S. was atheist and genocidal (some still), and the non Judeo Christian countries in pagan times were brutal...do you stupidly think people can bring about world peace on their own after last century...There is no monogamy in relationships anymore...people have no use for anyone else - and why should they? No love, no families, shallow hookups, technologies that Mengele and Ceucescu would have killed for...you guys have a rotten track record - instead of people loving each other and commiting to each other - the adage should be screw everyone but thyself...when I was younger, I wanted one man to commit to and every child would be sacrosanct...good luck today! It is too easy to label any believer in god as a nutcase but what is your reasoning for living? How do you prove your case in light of Communism or Facism or paganism which were brutal societies?
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:47:22 -0800
> > Subject: [epistemology 10931] Re: God and Consciousness.

> > From: einse...@gmail.com

> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop.http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W...- Hide quoted text -

[Hem Joshi]

Its very true  to some extent that God exist only in human brains, but in India "The Land of Saint' from where I belong there is a lots of research have been done since time immemorial on this. As a result in Hindu mythology The existence of God is proved in every particle of Universe. 

[KUMARESAN RAMASAMY]

Dear All,

 

I just infroduce myself as KUMARESAN from India.

 

God is present in every atoms in every creature. Of course, once we feel the presence of god inside us, our words, thoguhts and deeds will be in harmony and bring divine actions.

 

Ref books by Sri Sathya Sai BHAGWAN  and this will helps us to understand the cosmic form of divine.There are lots of proofs and miracles which will clear our thinking.

 

I am pleased to share my views and welcome more comments.

 

Good day to all.

[ornamentalmind]

“Its very true to some extent that God exist only in human brains,

but in India "The Land of Saint' from where I belong there is a lots
of research have been done since time immemorial on this. As a result
in Hindu mythology The existence of God is proved in every particle of

Universe.” – HJ

Let us do an analysis of the words used here. I will ask you exactly
where the line is for your term ‘some extent’ Hem. To what extend does
god exist outside of brains? What extent inside?

This all is related to my criticism (#2 above) about proofs for and
proofs against almost anything. Are you willing to also share any of
the ‘research’ you mention, what criteria was used along with how the
results were determined too? The term research today, in the West at
least, has taken on a specific meaning.

Also, the use of the term ‘proved’ which you use above is most often
associated with a specific methodology which I can only guess is
something that you are not speaking of. To keep us communicating as
clearly as possible using words, I do ask this with all due respect.

> --
> with regards,
>
> Hem Joshi- Hide quoted text -

[ornamentalmind]

“…I am pleased to share my views and welcome more comments.” – KR

Hello Kumaresan. You appear to embrace the teachings of Bhagawan Sri
Sathya Sai Baba. While I do recognize much wisdom in his words, I
will comment that some do not appear to be true to finding the divine
within which, as I understand it, is one of his main tenets.

In particular, his 10th principle as presented in 1985,:
“10. Never go against the law of the land. Follow it diligently both
in word and spirit. Be an exemplary citizen.”**,
does represent the wisdom of adapting to one’s environment. However, I
can’t help but think that it is naïve to present this in such an
absolute manor. There have been cultures where the law of the land
included turning people over to the authorities, even family members,
when there was only a suspicion of any wrong doing. Often, people were
turned over for torture and even death just to settle an old score.

So, in the spirit of inquiry about the words of your guru, what say
you?

** http://www.srisathyasai.org.in/Pages/His_teachings/Practical_Spirituality.htm

On Nov 6, 1:19 am, KUMARESAN RAMASAMY <kumaresh2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> I just infroduce myself as KUMARESAN from India.
>
> God is present in every atoms in every creature. Of course, once we feel the
> presence of god inside us, our words, thoguhts and deeds will be in harmony
> and bring divine actions.
>
> Ref books by Sri Sathya Sai BHAGWAN  and this will helps us to understand
> the cosmic form of divine.There are lots of proofs and miracles which will
> clear our thinking.
>
> I am pleased to share my views and welcome more comments.
>
> Good day to all.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Hem Joshi <hem.de...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Its very true  to some extent that God exist only in human brains, but in
> > India "The Land of Saint' from where I belong there is a lots of research
> > have been done since time immemorial on this. As a result in Hindu mythology
> > The existence of God is proved in every particle of Universe.
>

> >> ================== . .- Hide quoted text -

[socratus]

Science and religion in tandem can become a great force
to liberate the mind and help the humans to a fuller and better
understanding of reality.
/ Sikh Religion and Science
by G. S. Sidhu M.A; FIL (London) /
http://www.sikhroots.net/resources/Sikh_Religion%20&Science.pdf
=== .
Why every religion wants support from science ?
1.
Where Science and Buddhism Meet PART 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj_i7YqDwJA&feature=related

[einseele]

Olá Enrique

Concordo 100% com vc, embora a existência de Deus é sim um dos bons
temas da literatura, eu gosto dessas histórias

abç

Carlos

On 5 nov, 19:10, Enrique Fynn <enriquef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is no way of proving the non-existence of something that there isn't,
> or something inconceivable such as God or any supra-natural entity that ever
> has being maded up by humans (or not) I don't know, I think that this kind
> of arguments (in favor or not) of God's existence is boring and useless,
> there is no meaning in discussing such things, Ok... maybe some of us didn't
> have enought discussion about those themas, but nevertheless is useless.
>
> Att;
> Enrique Fynn.
> --
> Artificial intelligence laboratory
> Federal University of Uberlândia
> "Even a stopped clock is right twice a
> day."
>

> 2009/11/5 einseele <einse...@gmail.com>

[ornamentalmind]

“…Why every religion wants support from science ?” – Soc

Of course, there are many sects that in fact look away from science.
The specific video you present about Buddhism is of the New Age verity
and, while it does include some good associations with scientific
thought of today, it is produced more as a visual art and is less
than scientific.

On the other hand, since the currency of the day is often seen as
being the coin of science, it is no accident that apologists of every
ilk wish to find ‘scientific proof’ about this and that type of
metaphysics…the very name of which belies such endeavors.

So, in direct response to your question, it is widely recognized that
to be taken ‘seriously’ today, theologies must not ignore let alone be
hostile to scientific inquiry. In this case, the unique brand of
inquiry that by definition does not address the divine!

On Nov 6, 4:53 am, socratus <isra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Science and religion in tandem can become a great force
> to liberate the mind and help the humans to a fuller and better
> understanding of reality.
>   /  Sikh Religion and Science

> by G. S. Sidhu M.A;  FIL (London) /http://www.sikhroots.net/resources/Sikh_Religion%20&Science.pdf

[einseele]

Argumentum Ornitologicum is the name of a poem of my fellow countryman
Jorge Luis Borges.
But you dont need to know about him

> >>http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23624&st=15http://www.ph...

[ornamentalmind]

Kumaresan, even though there are millions of Sri Baba followers, in
the true spirit of inquiry, one must question his response to a
challenge concerning some of his ‘miracles’. I post the following
only as something I found at Wikapedia about these miracles and find
the video I've added at the bottom to be quite telling:

“…In April 1976, Dr. H. Narasimhaiah, a physicist, rationalist and
then vice chancellor of Bangalore University, founded and chaired a
committee "to rationally and scientifically investigate miracles and
other verifiable superstitions". Haraldsson stated that Narasimhaiah
wrote Sathya Sai Baba a polite letter and two subsequent letters that
were widely publicized in which he publicly challenged Baba to perform
his miracles under controlled conditions. Sathya Sai Baba said that he
ignored Narasimhaiah's challenge because he felt his approach was
improper. Sathya Sai Baba further said about the Narasimhaiah
committee, "Science must confine its inquiry only to things belonging
to the human senses, while spiritualism transcends the senses. If you
want to understand the nature of spiritual power you can do so only
through the path of spirituality and not science. What science has
been able to unravel is merely a fraction of the cosmic
phenomena ..." According to Erlendur Haraldsson, the formal challenge
from the committee came to a dead end because the negative attitude of
the committee was obvious and perhaps because of all the fanfare
involved. Narasimhaiah stated that he considered the fact that Sathya
Sai Baba ignored his letters as one among several indications that his
miracles are fraudulent. As a result of this episode, a public debate
raged for several months in Indian newspapers. Narasimhaiah's
committee was dissolved in August 1977.
Sathya Sai Baba says of "miracles", "those who profess to have
understood me, the scholars, the yogis, the pundits, the jnanis, all
of them are aware only of the least important, the casual external
manifestation of an infinitesimal part of that power, namely, the
"miracles"! This has been the case in all ages. People may be very
near (physically) to the Avathar, but they live out their lives
unaware of their fortune; they exaggerate the role of miracles, which
are as trivial, when compared to my glory and majesty, as a mosquito
is in size and strength to the elephant upon which it squats.
Therefore, when you speak about these 'miracles,' I laugh within
myself out of pity that you allow yourself so easily to lose the
precious awareness of my reality." …” -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba#Claims_of_materialization_and_other_miracles

Much more is claimed in that article about him. And, I know that
similar allegations have arisen about many ‘holy men’. And, personally
I judge teachings rather than the teacher. However, even though there
have been many renunciations of such criticisms by Sai Baba, the
following video I ran across a while back speaks for itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwOecpMkHH0&feature=related

Notice that this is part 1 of 4.

On Nov 6, 1:19 am, KUMARESAN RAMASAMY <kumaresh2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> I just infroduce myself as KUMARESAN from India.
>
> God is present in every atoms in every creature. Of course, once we feel the
> presence of god inside us, our words, thoguhts and deeds will be in harmony
> and bring divine actions.
>
> Ref books by Sri Sathya Sai BHAGWAN  and this will helps us to understand
> the cosmic form of divine.There are lots of proofs and miracles which will
> clear our thinking.
>
> I am pleased to share my views and welcome more comments.
>
> Good day to all.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Hem Joshi <hem.de...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Its very true  to some extent that God exist only in human brains, but in
> > India "The Land of Saint' from where I belong there is a lots of research
> > have been done since time immemorial on this. As a result in Hindu mythology
> > The existence of God is proved in every particle of Universe.
>

[KUMARESAN RAMASAMY]

we could not judge anything with little happenings. we cannot imagine the size of our country.  A broader view or opinion will give only by the person who has let all the attachments.

 We can debate any laws or maorals. But there might be. Else world will not know how to become guest to others.

Timings must be there to follow. Otherwise we are not aware of how punctual or delay to our work.

There may be trespassers but we should abide our law. He will transform by seeing us. But We should not.

[KUMARESAN RAMASAMY]

Theoretical examples are no linger lives. I understand that you have doubts in his materialisation.

The answer will be simply Metaphysics.[I attached some metaphysice documents for overview.] The scientists whoever involved in metaphysics have accepted the materialisation can done only by God.

I will give some existing examples similar to Lingam creation by Sri Sathya Sai Bhagwan.

 

Egg shell made of calcites will get harden only when it exposure to air. similarliy pearl formation also.[ please refer my attachment] 
suppose, Wind germination and insect germination in a plant can takes some months of time whereas artificial germination can lessen the actual time.

 

Similarly artifical pearls can be much faster than natural pearls. But quality may vary. since it depends on man perfection.

 

But a divine can collect the materials and process the gold or any ornaments in microseconds by completing all the process of gold mine and ornaments manufacturing company.

 

There are millions of peoples who really experienced the miracles of Divine which cannot be simply believed by mere sounds. But we also cannot ignore them.

 

A single man cannot occupy all peoples around the world.

Abraham Lincoln can inspire only americans to greater extent. similarly Gandhiji can do only indians, Nelson mandela can do south africans. May be we all have a place in our hart for them.

 

But Divine occupies all the peoples heart around the world completely.

 

Also some videos exclaiming his miracles and raise doubts in his usual actions. But I can say there are always opposite to every thing. When there is devotee then there must be opposers.

 So the video can be morphing.

 

Also I do not insists only the Sri Sathya Sai. But I sure to realise the superior power beyond us. Einstein accepted the God's existence. And so many .. .

[Serenity Smiles]

I got a therapy of being not beaten but struck

 by peacock feathers by Sri Sathya Sai (pronounced phonetically Saya) Baba, London 1996, (I hope I have spelt his name correctly), it did not have much effect upon my Karma alas, and the Didgeridoo therapist who was treating using sound in the corner, was far more appealing.  However, in Buddhism the subject of God and consciousness is left to the 14 unanswered questions by Buddha in the Abhidharma texts and commentaries.  This to allow the coalition of religion and/or science.  The "or" bit though, has not worked very well, so why not eliminate the "or" and realise that it does not matter whatever you call it, its all the same, and in our hearts we all need and desire the same things in order to survive.  

[Enrique Fynn]

"I cannot understand holy war, but after Hitler (atheist,pagan), Stalin, Mao, Pol, Kim, Enver, gosh - just about every educated government but the U.S. was atheist and genocidal (some still), and the non Judeo Christian countries in pagan times were brutal...do you stupidly think people can bring about world peace on their own after last century...There is no monogamy in relationships anymore...people have no use for anyone else - and why should they? No love, no families, shallow hookups, technologies that Mengele and Ceucescu would have killed for...you guys have a rotten track record - instead of people loving each other and commiting to each other - the adage should be screw everyone but thyself...when I was younger, I wanted one man to commit to and every child would be sacrosanct...good luck today! It is too easy to label any believer in god as a nutcase but what is your reasoning for living? How do you prove your case in light of Communism or Facism or paganism which were brutal societies?"

What a bad argument!!!!! Oh... I though that in this mail list there will be more reasonable people... So Hitler in fist place was Christian! So all Christians are evil?? I can't have an argument with you, don't argue with stupid persons.

einseele: Prazer em conhecê-lo.

Att;
Enrique Fynn.
--
Artificial intelligence laboratory
Federal University of Uberlândia
"Even a stopped clock is right twice a
day."

2009/11/7 KUMARESAN RAMASAMY <kumare...@gmail.com>

[trit...@comcast.net]

Have I said this before? Is it just a coincidence that Theology and Theory are derived from the same source? Perhaps the practice of something you know isn't true as if it were fact, is religion.

Perhaps that is what a person who was referred to as Jesus intended to express. Existence is God. What was, what is, and what will be is God. He was the son of God, as all existence is Gods creation.

So if Existence is God, does God exist?

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

[socratus]

‘ The idea that the universe can be viewed as the compound
of two basic orders, the implicate and the explicate, can be
found in many other traditions.
The Tibetan Buddhists call these two aspects the void and
nonvoid. The nonvoid is the reality of visible objects. The
void, like the implicate order, is the birthplace of all things
in the universe, . . .
. . . only the void is real and all forms in the objective world
are illusory, . . . .
The Hindus call the implicate level of reality Brahman.
Brahman is formless but is the birthplace of all forms in
visible reality, which appear out of it and then enfold back
into it in endless flux.
. . . consciousness is not only a subtler form of matter,
but it is more fundamental than matter, and in the Hindu cosmology it
is matter that has emerged from consciousness,
and not the other way around. Or as the Vedas put it, the
physical world is brought into being through both the
‘ veiling’ and ‘ projecting’ powers of consciousness.
. . . the material universe is only a second- generation
reality, a creation of veiled consciousness, the Hindus
say that it is transitory and unreal, or ‘ maya’.
. . .
This same concept can be found in Judaic thought.
. . . . in shamanistic thinking . . . . . .
. . . . . .
Like Bohm, who says that consciousness always has its
source in the implicate, the aborigines believe that the
true source of the mind is in the transcendent reality of
the dreamtime. Normal people do not realize this and
believe that their consciousness is in their bodies.
. . . . .
The Dogan people of the Sudan also believe that the
physical world is the product of a deeper and more
fundamental level of reality . . . . . .’
=== .
Book / The Holographic Universe.
Part 3 / 9. Pages 287 – 289.
By Michael Talbot. /
==================== . . .
My questions after reading this book.

Is it possible that Physics confirmed and proved the
Religion philosophy of life ?
How is it possible to understand the Religion philosophy
of life from modern Physics view?
#
My opinion.
Fact.
The detected material mass of the matter in the
Universe is so small (the average density of all
substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the
Universe into sphere and therefore our Universe
as whole is ‘open’, Endless Void / Nothingness /
Vacuum : T=0K.
Quantum Physics says the Vacuum is the birthplace
of all ‘ virtual’ particles . Nobody knows what there are,
but ‘the virtual particles’ change the Vacuum in a
local places and create Nonvoid / Material / Gravity
World with stars, planets and all another objects and
subjects in the Universe.
=== .
Without Eternal/ Infinite Void / Vacuum physics makes no sense.
But . . . . . . .
" The problem of the exact description of vacuum, in my opinion,
is the basic problem now before physics. Really, if you can’t
correctly describe the vacuum, how it is possible to expect a correct
description of something more complex? "
/ Paul Dirac ./
==========.

[Timothy Monicken]

Your last question, by the reflexive property, seems to answer itself...  Still, however speculatively laden as this line of inquiry is, I'll dare to go one step beyond that "existential imperative," and ask if God IS the very reason WE REASON, or, are able to reason...  Is the ubiquitous spirit of the Godhead, that spark - that neg-entropic phenomenon, compelled into "play" or  employed instrumentally to service "the great passion play," that all of us must engage, like actors on a stage???

Moreover, are "we," at least on one level or dimension, a "literary device" to mock a "dialogue" that ultimately stems from the whole or "matrix" like some protean "sudoku puzzle on a toroidal landscape - seemingly countless "perspectives," but much fewer actually differentiated  "signatures."  >>> IOW: Is the "experiment" being played out, merely for the sake of "creation's" "christo-genesis?"  >> Perhaps, the"I - Thou connectivity" - that all-important dialogue to which Martin Buber so eloquently addressed, is but a "natural consequence" of that neg-entropic phenomena put into an "implicate order" or cosmic "deck of cards, even prior to that all-creating event "they" refer to as the "big bang(?)."  Sometimes, I think of a universe that is "programmed" to expand along a curved spacetime landscape, that is fashioned after "stacked donuts," until it comes to the "outer reaches" where at the "event horizon" speedily rewinds that whole "passion play" in which we find ourselves... back to the eternal return (Gib G-nab)/ big crunch, only to re-enact itself... like a "re-run" with innumerable plots & possible endings. "God" just loves this grand experiment... can't get enough of it.... ah, the comedy & pathos of it all... FUN STUFF!

[trit...@comcast.net]

Realization is the beginning of Religion. Existence is the beginning of Realization. All is One. One is All.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

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From: Timothy Monicken <chre...@gmail.com>

Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 19:26:10 -0600

To: <episte...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [epistemology 10961] Re: God and Consciousness.

[socratus]

Only human being have come to a point where they
no longer know why they exist. They don’t use their
brains and they have forgotten the secret knowledge
of their bodies, their senses, or their dreams. They
don’t use the knowledge the spirit has put into every
one of them; they are not even aware of this, and so
they stumble along blindly on the room to nowhere - . . . . .

/ - the Lakata shaman Lame Deer
Lama Deer Seeker of Visions /

From book / The Holographic Universe. Part 3 / 9. Page 286.
By Michael Talbot. /
========== . .