forgiveness

[Setz...@aol.com]

Thank goodness for forgiveness.  When I first came to the Episcopal church it seemed that more emphasis was placed on this than I was used to.  I thought I was a pretty good person and had a hard time with it.  I have to admit, I still can't name all the sins I commit, but have come to recognize the big category that sums most of it up....self-centeredness. (is that a word.  My spell-checker didn't alert me!)  I know for sure that I am guilty of this daily.  Thank goodness for forgiveness!

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Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.

[Ed Dorsey]

I was just reflecting the other day on the "one-word summation" of our doctrine - LOVE. With love, all things are possible; God is love, and love enables forgiveness of nearly anything for mere humans! So, God's "inestimable love" blows our love capability out of the water... my God is never so small that forgiveness can't occur!

--
Have a great day, unless you've made other plans!

[Setz...@aol.com]

And thank goodness (or maybe not) that God does not put "values" on sins.  A sin is a sin, and your sin is not worse than my sin, even if I want to think it is.  In this day of divisiveness within the church, I just remember that we have all sinned and fallen short.  Thankfully God is the most loving Father we can imagine and loves us unconditionally

[Ed Dorsey]

Amen!

[Beth Rankin]

The issue I have is not that I sin, but how to keep from repeating myself.  I don't want to be an adult version of a little kid who says "I'm sorry" when they really don't mean it.

 

I also, in my long-winded story, believe that some things that are "sins" are man imposed and not really behavior stipulated in the code of ethics of the 10 Commandments.  

Ed Dorsey <evdo...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Cyndi Spencer]

Forgiveness -  We step on someones toe and say I'm sorry.  Is that a sin? I think not........We hurt another human being by committing a sin against them or is it against God?  We justify sinning to suit our immediate needs.    Humans with free will........ For me the true meaning of forgiveness is not in words but actions.  Saying I'm sorry over and over for the same act simply means I have not changed my action/behavior.  God forgives us of our sins but do we forgive ourselves?  Do we start with a clean slate?  Can we look at our lives and stop justifying behavior that we know is sinful or do we keep asking for forgiveness?  Do we really forgive others or do we hold on to a hurt.  I am guilty of all the above, thankful for forgiveness and the ability to forgive. 

[docv...@aol.com]

Quite possibly, sin is really the abscense of God as opposed to a God centered life.  I go back to Paul in Romans and his depression as wanting not to sin but sin being something he can not escape.  And, If not for the grace of God through JC, forgiveness would not be possible.  The most difficult part of Christainity is accepting God's grace.  Michaelangelo expressed it most beatifully on the ceiling of the cistine chapel with a space.  A space between God's outstreached hand and that of man.  That space contains all the failures of mankind, but, it also holds all the hope that is ours through God.  We sin as humans.  And as someone else said, the ego of man is the root of all sin and it is that part of us that prevents us from fully assepting God's forgiveness.  Except at the communion table where there is only us and God's grace that we partake of and renew our soul.

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[Beth Rankin]

I'm still confused about what a lot of people call sin but seems to me to be offense of rules as interpreted by man.  For example, I have been called a sinner more times than I can count, because I am not baptized. When I have tried toget into a discussion of religious interpretation and the fact that baptism is not part of Judaism, I have simply been told I am wrong and a sinner and condemned to Hell.  My reaction has been to laugh and basically tell them that they certainly are losing any argument to get me to consider Christianity. (and hence my joy at finding St John's and the people therein)

 

So, how do you all differentiate what community considers sin from what scripture tell us?

 

docv...@aol.com wrote:

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[Ed Dorsey]

My understanding is that baptism (in a sense) *is* Jewish in origin, as far as the symbolic nature of water/cleansing/etc., and that Christians co-opted it - John the Baptist was a Jew, after all.

As for sin, a simplistic (and perhaps overly so?) explanation would be "any act that is contrary to a loving act". Note that there are potential acts that are neutral by this definition, and that thoughts are acts of our mind, and hence susceptible to sin. I am gonna stop there, as I need to get back to work :o)

[Ed Dorsey]

Welcome to the Group, Doc VBall! Do I know you?

[docv...@aol.com]

DocVBall is Tom Wilkinson.

[Ed Dorsey]

Thanks!

On 2/18/08, docv...@aol.com <docv...@aol.com> wrote:
> DocVBall is Tom Wilkinson.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed Dorsey <evdo...@gmail.com>
> To: episcopal-bib...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 2:34 pm
> Subject: Re: forgiveness
>
>
> Welcome to the Group, Doc VBall! Do I know you?
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2008 1:52 PM, <docv...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Quite possibly, sin is really the abscense of God as opposed to a God

> centered life.? I go back to Paul in Romans and his depression as wanting
> not to sin but sin being something he can not escape.? And, If not for the
> grace of God through JC, forgiveness would not be possible.? The most
> difficult part of Christainity is accepting God's grace.? Michaelangelo

> expressed it most beatifully on the ceiling of the cistine chapel with a

> space.? A space between God's outstreached hand and that of man.? That space

> contains all the failures of mankind, but, it also holds all the hope that

> is ours through God.? We sin as humans.? And as someone else said, the ego

> of man is the root of all sin and it is that part of us that prevents us

> from fully assepting God's forgiveness.? Except at the communion table where

> there is only us and God's grace that we partake of and renew our soul.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed Dorsey <evdo...@gmail.com>
> To: episcopal-bib...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:15 pm
> Subject: Re: forgiveness
>
>
>
>
> Amen!
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2008 12:10 PM, <Setz...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>

> And thank goodness (or maybe not) that God does not put "values" on sins.? A

> sin is a sin, and your sin is not worse than my sin, even if I want to think

> it is.? In this day of divisiveness within the church, I just remember that
> we have all sinned and fallen short.? Thankfully God is the most loving

> Father we can imagine and loves us unconditionally
>
>
>
>
>

> Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL
> Living.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Have a great day, unless you've made other plans!
>
>
>
>

> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Have a great day, unless you've made other plans!
>
>
>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -

> http://webmail.aol.com

[docv...@aol.com]

Perhaps we need to look at what is the meaning of "original sin."  Eating of an apple is just symbolic of man's self importance and the root of all sin.  We have a tendency to do what "feels good" or at least make us content within ourselves.  Perhaps are service to others is just an attempt to make us feel better or least doing what we are told we need to do.  We could only hope to achieve the the complete service to others of a Mother Theresa or St Augustine but even they struggle with themselves.  I still believe it goes back that man kinds ultimate sin is self gratification which results in a selfish love of oneself.  That results in the only way to achieve the immersion of man with god and that is through grace.  A very simple solution but, one that we have to grapple with continually.  It is easy to say we accept but difficult to do.  We constantly try to justify are worthiness through are actions.

[Beth Rankin]

But it all has to be in balance....there is some credence to

If I am not for myself, who will be for me, and if not now, when?

So some love of self is important.

 

Are we also flagellating ourselves that we can never be "good enough"?  Strigving to achieve the service orientation of a Mother Theresa and saying even she struggled with herself begs the question of what can a regular person do?  Of course we will fail.

docv...@aol.com wrote:

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[docv...@aol.com]

Of course we will fail?  Then enters grace.  Love the lord your god with all your might and love thy neighbor as thy self.  When I joined the Episcopal Church from a fundamental background, this hit me like a ton of bricks.  I was always told to place myself last and it was and is so comforting to be able to know that we are all just behind God and through grace we are able to approach God's throne with singleness of heart with the knowledge that we have been spared and all share in this everlasting love.

[Barbara]

The Forgiveness Project (sponsored by many, including Bishop Tutu)
emphasizes the importance of forgiving others as we have been
forgiven.
http://www.theforgivenessproject.com/

On Feb 18, 12:01 pm, Setzer...@aol.com wrote:
> Thank goodness for forgiveness.  When I first came to the Episcopal  church
> it seemed that more emphasis was placed on this than I was used to.   I thought
> I was a pretty good person and had a hard time with it.  I have  to admit, I
> still can't name all the sins I commit, but have come to recognize  the big
> category that sums most of it up....self-centeredness. (is that a  word.  My
> spell-checker didn't alert me!)  I know for sure that I am  guilty of this daily.
>  Thank goodness for  forgiveness!
>

> **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.      
> (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-cam...
> 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

[Barbara]

I think that "sin" that violates human rules separates us from God
only when it is a rejection of our fellow humans. I think that
sometimes rejecting what humans define as sin actually brings us
closer to God, as when Jesus healed on the Sabbath.

On Feb 18, 2:07 pm, Beth Rankin <sunbea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm still confused about what a lot of people call sin but seems to me to be offense of rules as interpreted by man.  For example, I have been called a sinner more times than I can count, because I am not baptized. When I have tried toget into a discussion of religious interpretation and the fact that baptism is not part of Judaism, I have simply been told I am wrong and a sinner and condemned to Hell.  My reaction has been to laugh and basically tell them that they certainly are losing any argument to get me to consider Christianity. (and hence my joy at finding St John's and the people therein)
>
>   So, how do you all differentiate what community considers sin from what scripture tell us?
>

> docvb...@aol.com wrote:
>
>   Quite possibly, sin is really the abscense of God as opposed to a God centered life.  I go back to Paul in Romans and his depression as wanting not to sin but sin being something he can not escape.  And, If not for the grace of God through JC, forgiveness would not be possible.  The most difficult part of Christainity is accepting God's grace.  Michaelangelo expressed it most beatifully on the ceiling of the cistine chapel with a space.  A space between God's outstreached hand and that of man.  That space contains all the failures of mankind, but, it also holds all the hope that is ours through God.  We sin as humans.  And as someone else said, the ego of man is the root of all sin and it is that part of us that prevents us from fully assepting God's forgiveness.  Except at the communion table where there is only us and God's grace that we partake of and renew our soul.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed Dorsey <evdor...@gmail.com>
> To: episcopal-bib...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:15 pm
> Subject: Re: forgiveness
>
>   Amen!
>

>   On Feb 18, 2008 12:10 PM, <Setzer...@aol.com> wrote:
>       And thank goodness (or maybe not) that God does not put "values" on sins.  A sin is a sin, and your sin is not worse than my sin, even if I want to think it is.  In this day of divisiveness within the church, I just remember that we have all sinned and fallen short.  Thankfully God is the most loving Father we can imagine and loves us unconditionally
>

> ---------------------------------

>   Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.
>
> --
> Have a great day, unless you've made other plans!
>

> ---------------------------------

>   More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
>

> ---------------------------------
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