Re: [Ephemerisle] David Brin's criticisms of the seasteading movement
Starchild
> As a libertarian activist and participant in the ongoing Ephemerisle
> festivals originally begun by Patri Friedman's Seasteading
> Institute, I agree with some of David Brin's democratic/egalitarian
> concerns as they apply to potential models of seasteading. I'm
> interested in new ocean-based countries following a libertarian
> model of strong individual rights and political power wielded on a
> bottom-up basis within the constraints of those rights, not a
> propertarian model where those with the most money can limit society-
> wide freedoms as they choose.
>
> Like Brin, I favor an approach toward seasteading that emphasizes
> civil liberties and the freedom to engage in social experiments,
> rather a narrower focus on its tax-avoidance benefits. Happily, my
> sense is that the Ephemerisle community, which includes the folks at
> the Seasteading Institute, is in fact *much* more oriented toward
> personal freedoms and social experimentation than toward wealth-
> protection.
>
> However, Brin's obvious distaste for Ayn Rand, and apparent love-
> hate relationship toward libertarianism -- I'm getting much the same
> sense of conflicted sentiments that I got from his remarks when I
> heard him talk at a Libertarian Party convention some years ago --
> seems to have led him to take a rather negative view here, in which
> he makes what I believe are some unfair pronouncements and
> judgments. Rand didn't oppose violence, she opposed *aggression*,
> same as libertarians do. The Non-Aggression Principle which
> constitutes the heart of libertarianism, and to which Rand
> subscribed, affirms peoples' rights to defend life, liberty, and
> legitimately acquired property, but not to *initiate* force or fraud
> against others.
>
> Sure there will inevitably be differences of opinion on what
> constitutes force or fraud, and what types of responses to them are
> reasonable. Rand, for instance, thought extra-national military
> interventions by the governments of relatively free countries like
> the United States for purposes of protecting life, liberty, and
> property from the depredations of more authoritarian regimes were
> justified, while many libertarians do not.
>
> Brin presents no evidence that folks like Friedman or Peter Thiel
> are advocating the imposition of obligations on others. Having met
> both of them, I don't believe they favor any such thing. In fact I
> haven't heard any seasteaders suggesting that seasteads or new
> countries should seek military protection from existing nation-
> states, or making other demands of them or their citizens. To the
> contrary, I think most of us would actively oppose such reliance.
>
> Engaging in free trade with the world, and asserting the right to
> not have one's life or property controlled by governments beyond the
> extent to which such control may be reasonably justified under the
> Non-Aggression Principle is *not* the same thing as a feudal lord
> "living off proceeds from the surrounding country" in a coercive
> relationship with the peasantry.
>
> Without acknowledging the ethics of non-aggression, I think any
> critique of the seasteading movement or the possible motives of
> those funding or leading such efforts is going to fall short.
>
> That said, Brin is a visionary sci-fi author whose criticisms and
> predictions are worth thinking about.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Aug 26, 2011, at 5:20 PM, Das Klempnerscharf wrote:
> Das Klempnerscharf posted in Ephemerisle.
>
> Das Klempnerscharf
> 5:20pm Aug 26
> I admit I am less keen on aspects that simply replicate the feudal
> castles that all our ancestors had to look up at, on the hill… and
> now at sea… where the lords got to evade all accountability while
> holding us to our many obligations to them. I asked Patri Friedman
> if he realized his aim was to re-create that feudal castle… still
> living off proceeds from the surrounding country. He changed the
> subject. But isn’t that what it boils down to?
>
> Seasteading: Some Problems on the way to Castle Sovereign
> davidbrin.wordpress.com
>
Naomi Most
Here's the response I just posted to David Brin's blog post:
As a libertarian activist and participant in the ongoing Ephemerisle festivals originally begun by Patri Friedman's Seasteading Institute, I agree with some of David Brin's democratic/egalitarian concerns as they apply to potential models of seasteading. I'm interested in new ocean-based countries following a libertarian model of strong individual rights and political power wielded on a bottom-up basis within the constraints of those rights, not a propertarian model where those with the most money can limit society-wide freedoms as they choose.
Like Brin, I favor an approach toward seasteading that emphasizes civil liberties and the freedom to engage in social experiments, rather a narrower focus on its tax-avoidance benefits. Happily, my sense is that the Ephemerisle community, which includes the folks at the Seasteading Institute, is in fact *much* more oriented toward personal freedoms and social experimentation than toward wealth-protection.
However, Brin's obvious distaste for Ayn Rand, and apparent love-hate relationship toward libertarianism -- I'm getting much the same sense of conflicted sentiments that I got from his remarks when I heard him talk at a Libertarian Party convention some years ago -- seems to have led him to take a rather negative view here, in which he makes what I believe are some unfair pronouncements and judgments. Rand didn't oppose violence, she opposed *aggression*, same as libertarians do. The Non-Aggression Principle which constitutes the heart of libertarianism, and to which Rand subscribed, affirms peoples' rights to defend life, liberty, and legitimately acquired property, but not to *initiate* force or fraud against others.
Sure there will inevitably be differences of opinion on what constitutes force or fraud, and what types of responses to them are reasonable. Rand, for instance, thought extra-national military interventions by the governments of relatively free countries like the United States for purposes of protecting life, liberty, and property from the depredations of more authoritarian regimes were justified, while many libertarians do not.
Brin presents no evidence that folks like Friedman or Peter Thiel are advocating the imposition of obligations on others. Having met both of them, I don't believe they favor any such thing. In fact I haven't heard any seasteaders suggesting that seasteads or new countries should seek military protection from existing nation-states, or making other demands of them or their citizens. To the contrary, I think most of us would actively oppose such reliance.
Engaging in free trade with the world, and asserting the right to not have one's life or property controlled by governments beyond the extent to which such control may be reasonably justified under the Non-Aggression Principle is *not* the same thing as a feudal lord "living off proceeds from the surrounding country" in a coercive relationship with the peasantry.
Without acknowledging the ethics of non-aggression, I think any critique of the seasteading movement or the possible motives of those funding or leading such efforts is going to fall short.
That said, Brin is a visionary sci-fi author whose criticisms and predictions are worth thinking about.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Aug 26, 2011, at 5:20 PM, Das Klempnerscharf wrote:
Das Klempnerscharf posted in Ephemerisle.
Das Klempnerscharf
5:20pm Aug 26
I admit I am less keen on aspects that simply replicate the feudal castles that all our ancestors had to look up at, on the hill… and now at sea… where the lords got to evade all accountability while holding us to our many obligations to them. I asked Patri Friedman if he realized his aim was to re-create that feudal castle… still living off proceeds from the surrounding country. He changed the subject. But isn’t that what it boils down to?
Seasteading: Some Problems on the way to Castle Sovereign
davidbrin.wordpress.com
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Naomi Theora Most
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