Would you like a German translation?
Eryniel
I came across the link for this magnificent map via your post in the
sindict group. I am very impressed with the details and everything.
If you would be interested in a german translation, I would be willing
to help. :)
I have one question so far: Regarding the Mountains of Mirkwood. The
map is a representation of Middle-Earth as it is in the 3rd Age, so
The Forest around those Mountains would have been called Mirkwood,
"Taur-nu-Fuin" in sindarin. Would then the Mountains itself not have
been called "Emyn-nu-Fuin"? This is also suggested in the Encyclopedia
of Arda here -> http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/m/mountainsofmirkwood.html
Also, the sindarin "Ost-in-Edhil" I would translate to english as
"Elventown".
Hope this helps,
Garo hîdh
Eryniel
Kris Kowal
> Hello,
> I came across the link for this magnificent map via your post in the
> sindict group. I am very impressed with the details and everything.
Thanks!
> If you would be interested in a german translation, I would be willing
> to help. :)
The more the merrier. I can't promise when I would personally be able
to get around
to drawing all of the labels for each of these languages in any
particular time-frame,
but I'll favor them in the order in which interest drives the
translation columns to be
near-complete. Any help with calligraphy would, of-course, be
appreciated and would
expedite things.
I'm afraid the bit of German I know won't avail me much, although I'm
really interested
in the implications of typesetting German in Irish Uncials,
particularly ess-zet. Perhaps
there is a better German (or French) type suited for fantasy in the
same period as Irish
Uncials (around 600 AD, I think).
Far more daunting to me will be the Bulgarian. My sister has offered
to send me some
old cyrillic books for me to peruse. She's always had an interest in
that alphabet.
On an unrelated note, I'll be in Berlin for a JavaScript conference
next weekend.
> I have one question so far: Regarding the Mountains of Mirkwood. The
> map is a representation of Middle-Earth as it is in the 3rd Age, so
> The Forest around those Mountains would have been called Mirkwood,
> "Taur-nu-Fuin" in sindarin. Would then the Mountains itself not have
> been called "Emyn-nu-Fuin"? This is also suggested in the Encyclopedia
> of Arda here -> http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/m/mountainsofmirkwood.html
I went with the fourth-age name, Eryn Lasgalen for the forest. So,
triangulating
Eryn Lasgalen and Emyn-nu-Fuin, I came up with Emyn Lasgalen. However, I have
not been terribly consistent about representing the map from a
fourth-age view; it's more
of an "all places known by the fourth age" map, regardless of the time
in which they
existed. I'm torn about the appropriate approach. I'm favoring
completeness. Perhaps
I should use the most commonly known names, like Taur-nu-Fuin instead
of Eryn Lasgalen,
regardless of the age, or alternately use the last-known name for all
locations consistently.
Perhaps consistency, in this case, would indeed be "the hobgoblin of
tiny minds".
> Also, the sindarin "Ost-in-Edhil" I would translate to english as
> "Elventown".
Good thought. I'll go with that on my next round of label fixes.
> Hope this helps,
> Garo hîdh
> Eryniel
Hantalyë,
Ainaldo
Kris Kowal
> to help. :)
Oh, in case you haven't seen this yet, the spreadsheet for
incorporating translations is:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0An5phhxDkYDPdEkweHFFWjR4bTlzd3Nxb282UmJQVVE&hl=en#gid=0
And it has a freshly minted German column.
Kris
Eryniel
work locally. I was asking myself what translation to use as there are
two main ones of the Lord of the Rings - Carroux and Krege. I do
favour Carroux for the (in my eyes) better fitting style and closer
translation to english, but I know Krege has incorporated all the name-
changes that had occured. I would suggest taking the closer one to the
original and maybe marking it with the Translator (C or K in
brackets).
Your opinion on this would be much appreciated.
I'll see what Irish Unicals give me with regards to German, but I
think we could worry about that after the translations are in place,
maybe you worry needlessly.
I know my way around various modes of Tengwar, but alas, calligraphy
is an art yet unknown to me, so Im afraid we´ll have to wait for you
to do that part...
Also on a sidenote: I am German by birth, but now live in Australia,
so if your travels ever lead you this way....
> I went with the fourth-age name, Eryn Lasgalen for the forest.
would have been for the forth age, then why not make a sort of header
indicating that, maybe even only on the very front page with all of
Ennor showing in the map? I do agree that this question is rather of
minor import considering the broadness of your project. Some might
think its inconsistent with the english "Mirkwood" you use. A simple
statement that you are using the "last known" name could maybe help
you there :)
Garo hîdh
Eryniel
Eryniel
mentioned in published books like LOTR, Hobbit or Silmarillion in
green and translations in blue. Where the translations are italics, a
name is specifically not mentioned in the published works.
Some questions have arisen:
- Amon Lanc I could only find under his other name "Amon Rûdh". I
looked in all my english materials.
- Angmar seems like lenited compound word: Ang-bar, so the meaning
would be more Iron Home I think
- Caras Galadhon translates as Fortress (silvan !) Tree-of, so
Fortress of Trees
- Dur - Thong is explained in the appendix of Silmarillion (Elements
in Quenya and Sinarin names), so the name Dark Oppression seems ok to
me
- East Emnet is written as "Eastemnet" in my book
- I have "Iron Mountains" instead of Iron Hills
- Erech I can only find as "Hills of Erech"
- Eryn Vorn - Black Wood, is the english version attested somewhere?
In the german I could not find it and Sindarin "morn" can mean Dark or
Black
- Did you wish to indicate literal translations if they were attested?
I found lit. Towers of Mist for Misty Mountains
- Osgiliath is given in HoMe as: Fort of Stars
Garo hîdh
Eryniel
Kris Kowal
> Me again, I have started on the spreadsheet, indicating names
> mentioned in published books like LOTR, Hobbit or Silmarillion in
> green and translations in blue. Where the translations are italics, a
> name is specifically not mentioned in the published works.
Thank you for tracking these details. I would really like to
percolate all of this information into the map. A lot of my
information comes from Encarda, a secondary source, which itself
doesn't track citations. In due course, I would like to construct
citations and quotations.
The "Locations of Middle-earth" spreadsheet tracks information I use
to do labels. Each row corresponds to a label in each language. For
the English labeling, I often used the Elvish name where the literal
translation of the Elvish is not attested; I will probably do the same
for German. I still kept the literal translation on the spreadsheet.
If the name was constructed, I tried to remember to put an asterisk
after it or parentheses around it, but this probably needs review.
There's another spreadsheet where I was more thorough about this…
You can put more comprehensive information in the "Names of Locations
in Middle-earth" spreadsheet, which has a slightly more flexible
format. Each row is about an attested or constructed name. This is
the spreadsheet I use to generate the about-box information for each
label. It has cells for citation, etymology, and who constructed the
etymology
https://spreadsheets0.google.com/ccc?key=tm9BOhMMEVXDZSjNC0n0ORg&hl=en#gid=0
> Some questions have arisen:
> - Amon Lanc I could only find under his other name "Amon Rûdh". I
> looked in all my english materials.
This is another thing from Encarda. I, however, ran a search and it
appears in the Unfinished Tales.
"The rain lasted for four days; so when they came to the entrance to
the Vales, between Lórien and Amon Lanc, [12] Isildur turned away from
the Anduin, swollen with swift water, and went up the steep slopes on
its eastern side to gain the ancient paths of the Silvan Elves that
ran near the eaves of the Forest.
"12 - Amon Lanc, "Naked Hill," was the highest point in the highland
at the south-west corner of the Greenwood, and was so called because
no trees grew on its summit. In later days it was Dol Guldur, the
first stronghold of Sauron after his awakening. [Author's note.]"
- Unfinished Tales - Part III: The Third Age - The Disaster of the
Gladden Fields
I've revised the etymology on both spreadsheets.
> - Angmar seems like lenited compound word: Ang-bar, so the meaning
> would be more Iron Home I think
Yeah. According to Hwisoloke, bar is either home or dwelling. Given
the negative connotation of Angmar, I think it's safe to go with
"dwelling" instead of the more cozy implications of "home".
> - Caras Galadhon translates as Fortress (silvan !) Tree-of, so
> Fortress of Trees
I'll make a note.
> - Dur - Thong is explained in the appendix of Silmarillion (Elements
> in Quenya and Sinarin names), so the name Dark Oppression seems ok to
> me
Also made a note, thanks.
> - East Emnet is written as "Eastemnet" in my book
So it would seem; thanks. Eastemnet and Westemnet both in the text.
I'll check the original maps and redraw these.
> - I have "Iron Mountains" instead of Iron Hills
Just ran a search on this myself. It appears that Tolkien waffled on
this one. In the Silmarillion, the mountains are attested as both
Iron Mountains and Ered Engrin. However, in the Lord of the Rings and
The Hobbit, they are always called the Iron Hills. In the Tengwar, I
mislabeled them as Emyn Angren, which I recently re-inked as Emyn
Engrin. I'll re-ink this as Ered Engrin and leave the English alone
as Iron Hills.
> - Erech I can only find as "Hills of Erech"
I find mostly references to "Erech", with the occasional specific
"Hill of Erech" and "Stone of Erech". There are about 12 references
total, mostly in RotK, and one in the Sil.
> - Eryn Vorn - Black Wood, is the english version attested somewhere?
> In the german I could not find it and Sindarin "morn" can mean Dark or
> Black
No, the English translation is constructed. I'll redraw this as Eryn
Vorn for the English (and German) labels.
> - Did you wish to indicate literal translations if they were attested?
> I found lit. Towers of Mist for Misty Mountains
I would like to annotate everything as specifically as possible.
However, I've made mistakes and assumptions in my haste, so many
things will need to be added and fixed.
> - Osgiliath is given in HoMe as: Fort of Stars
Fantastic; I'll make a note.
Thanks!
Kris Kowal
Kris Kowal
>> - Amon Lanc I could only find under his other name "Amon Rûdh". I
>> looked in all my english materials.
>
> This is another thing from Encarda. I, however, ran a search and it
> appears in the Unfinished Tales.
>
> "The rain lasted for four days; so when they came to the entrance to
> the Vales, between Lórien and Amon Lanc, [12] Isildur turned away from
> the Anduin, swollen with swift water, and went up the steep slopes on
> its eastern side to gain the ancient paths of the Silvan Elves that
> ran near the eaves of the Forest.
> "12 - Amon Lanc, "Naked Hill," was the highest point in the highland
> at the south-west corner of the Greenwood, and was so called because
> no trees grew on its summit. In later days it was Dol Guldur, the
> first stronghold of Sauron after his awakening. [Author's note.]"
> - Unfinished Tales - Part III: The Third Age - The Disaster of the
> Gladden Fields
I took a look again and Amon Rûdh, while the correct translation of
"Bald Hill", refers to the place in Beleriand that Mîm, the petty
dwarf, figures in. Amon Lanc appears to be the correct name. I've
revised the English translation to be Naked Hill instead of Bald Hill;
the German translation, I presume needs to be revised similarly.
Also, I'm experimenting with a new system of annotations for the
sources of names in the Locations spreadsheet. I need to distinguish
terms that:
* do or will appear as the spelling of the name for the given
language, which include literal use of Elvish place names.
* are the translations from particular languages
* which language
* whether the translations are attested or constructed
You've used color for this; I'll need to eventually translate the
colors into text so I can process them programmatically. My present
design is:
<L means derived from language L, or is a literal translation of L,
where L is the abbreviation of the language, usually the first letter.
=L means that the name as known in this language matches the other language
* means that the word is not attested
** means that the word is not correct
Kris Kowal
Kris Kowal
> Hannad Ainaldo (Kris). I will download a copy of the spreadsheet to
> work locally.
Since you're working with a local copy, let me know if your work ever
gets out of sync with the online version; if you send me a copy, I can
merge it programmatically, so don't have to manually copy your work
onto the Google Doc.
Kris Kowal