"For Theodore Roethke" Robert Lowell, Jr.

[Dr. C.]

Robert Lowell, Jr. “For Theodore Roethke” (2509)

I am assuming you recognize the name in this title.   You might ask why does Lowell call his poem this?  What is the relationship between this poem and Roethke?  

Please remember that artists do not produce art in a vacuum.  They are often responding to the work of other artists - they might be praising that work, critiquing that work, challenging that work, extending that work.  If you do not know who Roethke is, it would be difficult to understand what Lowell seems to be doing here.  

To help you think more about this poem, it’s probably a good idea to read some of the other selections by Roethke in our textbook.  

Resources:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAKgNI92HrE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdx6VU07eIQ

http://www.poets.org/poet.php/prmPID/10

http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/poets/g_l/lowell/bio.htm

[Jeremy Newport]

This poem is much more difficult to understand than the fairly straightforward poem of Roethke. In terms of the commonalities between the two poets, I found it somewhat difficult to find many. While both were educated in the Midwest (Roethke at Michigan and Lowell at Kenyon), Roethke was about 11 years older than Lowell and I think we can infer that he influenced Lowell's poetry.

 

What strikes me when reading the two small biographies of the two individuals is how they both struggled with mental illness. While this might not seem like as big of a deal today when we have better medicines and healthcare, each bio speaks about hospitalizations which was at a time when mental health practices were still a tad barbaric so to speak. I feel Lowell probably felt a connection to Roethke not just as a poet but as someone who had also struggle with mental illness. I think the poem itself serves as a sort of eulogy as it is written in honor of Roethke. Specifically, Lowell's style of the time focused on history whereas Roethke focused on nature and living things. I feel specifically Lowell wanted to write like Roethke in order to honor him.  

[Amanda Sellers]

I think Lowell was both praising and extending Roethke's work. Both men were manic-depressive and had episodes that would overcome their existence. Like any human, they had feelings and portrayed so in their poetry. Roethke and Lowell had met on many occasions and often disagreed with each other on style, structure and type of poetry. In a interview, Lowell showed his respect for Roethke by saying that at one point he did not agree with Roethke's style of his poetry, seeming to simple and unstructured. However, he stated that after attempting to write poetry as Roethke had, Lowell could not do it. It had been too difficult and soon realized how magnificent and true Roethke was as a poet (http://eveningreader.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/paris-review-robert-lowell-on-theodore-roethke/). Lowell also stated he did not know much about nature.

At first, this poem seemed very difficult to understand. It is much more descriptive than Roethke's poem, My Papa's Waltz. Both poems do touch on their dark expression of the conflictions and depression that occurred. I feel Lowell was extending on Roethke's work because he attempted to include more nature in this poem than much of his other work. Other poetry by Lowell seems dark and descriptive, discussing surrounding objects, places and events. But For Theodore Roethke dives deeper into the nature of the darkness they felt.

Lowell describes the darkness and unstability of their episodes of manic depression. The hope of returning to happier times rolled around clumsily at night, but by dawn it was lost. The darkness returned by day, cold and gray. Both men were insecure and had troubles with their relationships with others. Lowell is very descriptive of their personalities by comparing them to small, aquatic bird of nature be taken over by reptilians(human like creatures) and diving awkwardly to the water and allowing their depression to transfer themselves to a lower level. Lowell continued speaking about nature as a helpless creature. In my imagination, I see a greenhouse, helpless and needing cared for.

The black stump of your hand touched the waters under the earth created an image of a burnt tree, overcome by fire. Just before the fire, the tree thrived, as did Roethke and Lowell before their depression and insecurity took over. These episodes hurt them both physically and mentally. But these so called hinderances left their name with praise for the work they had created from their turmoil. However, in the end, the psychological troubles took over, made them nonexistent as they failed to live with such conditions. The ocean's anchor, our high tide; their pain pulling them beneath the surface, drowning them in their fear and sorrow.

[roeselbl]

I believe Lowell named this poem after Roethke because it contains lines about nature which is Roethke's specialty. In an interview I found while researching each author, Lowell talks about Roethke's knowledge with nature and flowers. He considers this is "mastery." In the interview Lowell describes how differently him and Roethke write their poems. I think Lowell is using this poem to show how he used some forms of nature in his poetry such as clouds, Earth, water, and the ocean like Roethke does. Nature is the way that Roethke and this poem relate to each other. 

Resource

http://eveningreader.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/paris-review-robert-lowell-on-theodore-roethke/

[Dr. C.]

Yes, I agree that Lowell's use of nature imagery may "owe" something to Roethke.  Nice point.  Do you see similarities and/or differences in how they each use imagery (in terms of how nature might be a metaphor for something else, for example)?

[Dr. C.]

Amanda,

Why do you think this poem is more descriptive than Roethke's?  I agree that this may seem to be a more complicated poem (although I think "My Papa's Waltz" can be complex, too).

You suggest that Lowell goes farther with this poem in his use of nature imagery - did you look at some other Roethke poems? 

[Dr. C.]

Jeremy,

Yes, it's interesting that both men struggled with mental illness; this had to affect their writing - directly and indirectly.  Some, too, might argue that our healthcare system is still fairly barbaric when it comes to addressing mental illness.   

Good post.

[Amanda Sellers]

Dr. C,

 

 I have read several of Roethke's other poetry. His work is definitely much easier for me to read and understand then Lowell's. Lowell stated he had a difficult time writing as Roethke had. In this extension of Roethke's work, I feel Lowell purposefully used extra descriptive words to imitate what Roethke produced. Roethke would describe nature and the surrounding environment in many of his poems. An example I like is from  The Lost Son by Theodore Roethke. (5. It was beginning winter--pp. 2270)

It was beginning winter,

An in-between time,

The landscape still partly brown,

The bones of weeds kept swinging in the wind,

Above the blue snow.

 

It was beginning winter,

The light moved slowly over the frozen field,

Over the dry seed-crowns,

The beautiful surviving bones

Swinging in the wind.

.....

 

One can easily imagine the image Roethke is attempting to portray. He uses simplistic wording, moving from one object to the next. This simplistic nature and beauty of Roethke's poetry is what makes it a mastery. I agree with Lowell on that point.

 

In For Theodore Roethke, Lowell uses many more words to describe the image he wanted to portray. For example,

All night you wallowed through my sleep,

then in the morning you were lost

in the Maine sky---close, cold and gray,

smoke and smoke-colored cloud.

 

I can sense Lowell's difficulty with using nature as imagery as Roethke has done, using 5 different words/phrases to describe the coldness and darkness of the image/feeling. He continues this pattern by writing 2 different aquatic diving birds in the next verse. I particularly love Lowell's descriptive words regarding power and control, such as reptilian and devolving. Roethke would describe an image and usually move to the next line. It seems Roethke was able to portray his imagery in his poetry in a more natural manner than Lowell could.

 

I do feel both authors are very descriptive in their work and it was very interesting to learn about Roethke and Lowell and read their poetry. My favorite poem by Roethke is the Fourth Meditation in Meditations of an Old Woman. I can relate to this poem well, as many women go through struggles to find their own identity in the everyday life.

[Amanda Sellers]

I also feel that Lowell was challenging himself to write as Roethke did

[oligeejr]

I think that Lowell called his poem this because he was reflecting over the work of Roethke. I think he was using it as power to write on his own. Perhaps Lowell can relate to Roethke and because of that he can go off of what Roethke, but write his own poems. the relationship between this poem and Roethke is that they have the same kind of tone. they made me feel the same. I think Lowell's poem is more confusing to me because it is not straight forward like Roethke's. I noticed that a lot of what Lowell was taking about in his poem was nature related. (Sheep like, Reptilian, sky, smoke. etc.) I think after breaking it down this could be a very beautiful poem, it is very complex at the surface. Roethke's poem is also complex but you don't have to think about it much, you can just read through it and enjoy it without having to stop and decode what he is trying to say. I think one of the biggest similarities I saw in the two poems were the imagery. Imagery is such a powerful thing in poetry and it is very vivid in both poems. In the Roethke poem the reader can really see the child and father "waltzing" around the kitchen and in this one you can really see the nature. you can see the grey colored sky, the animals, and the waters. I think one of Lowells main points for writing this poem was kind of giving a shout out to Roethke, like he is thankful for Roethke's writing.

[David A. Riley]

Amanda -

Do you mean that Lowell was trying to write like Roethke in this poem, or in general?  I am not a reader of poetry by any definition, but I find Roethke easy to read.  I have not read much (if any) of Lowell's work, but it does seem like he is trying to write like Roethke, at least in this instance. 

I completely agree with you about the imagery that Roethke uses. It is much more straight forward than some poets.  I wonder, does that lessen the possible interpretations?  Robert Frost wrote some seemingly simple poems, using simple language, that can be interpreted any number of ways.  Is it the same for Roethke?

David

[Dr. C.]

Amanda's Nice discussion and use of another poem by Roethke here.   I like Roethke, and if we had a longer semester, I would assign more of his work.  You're right that he is very descriptive with his language, especially when portraying the natural world.

On Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:51:46 AM UTC-4, Amanda Sellers wrote:

[Amanda Sellers]

David,

 

I do feel that Lowell was attempting to write like Roethke in this poem. Much of Lowell's other poems describe places and events. Usually, it seems he writes more about what is taking place and is more of an idealist in his style. If you look at the link that I included in my earlier post, it includes an interview with Lowell about his relationship with Roethke. Lowell felt very challenged when he attempted to write like Roethke. He stated he had a difficult time doing so.He even stated that they had an argument about Roethke's style. If you get an extra minute or so, read through some of both author's work. Definitely listen to reading by Lowell, The Union Dead. You can get a sense of how Lowell wrote and described things. It definitely helped me put into context this poem, as certain pauses in the poetry can be important.

 

I personally don't feel that Roethke's simplistic use of words and phrases lessens the interpretations. Interpretations are subject to the reader and how much of the poem one is able to soak in and look into it. At first glance, My Papa's Waltz seemed abusive. I then reread the poem several times, side noting each time. It definitely helped me interpret the way I had. I tried to step outside my experiences to see how Roethke felt, knowing his background and I was truly awestruck by the emotions I felt after reading it for the final time. I also did the same with Lowell's poem, For Theodore Roethke. It seemed SO complex when I read it the first couple times. I definitely side noted and wrote a lot in my journal. After breaking it down and reading both authors biographies and other poems, For Theodore Roethke is so sad and beautiful, with such humility and human emotion. But I can sense his frustration with himself when attempting this style of poetry. I think Roethke's work seems simplistic and is seen as easy to develop such a style, but he must have had his own frustrations at times with such a need for control of his work and his life. He worked long and hard to produce such poems, to the point of exhaustion on several occasions. I guess it's a case of easier said then done.

 

 

[Olivia Zuba]

Lowell and Roethke have very different styles with their poetry. While reading "For Theodore Roethke," it was harder for me to understand the underlying meaning. Roethke's poem was written more like a story. This poem was written more descriptive. I think that Lowell is praising Roethke on his work. Like some of my other classmates, I read the "Paris Review: Robert Lowell on Theodore Roethke." There was a sentence that really caught my attention, "Whenever I've tried to an anything like his poems, I've felt helpless and realized his mastery." Even though he and Roethke disagreed about a lot of things, he still cherished his writings. I also think that they have such a strong connection is because they both had mental illnesses, and they wrote to help them through those hard times. Maybe they thought of writing as a way to escape, but it is also nice to know that someone is going through the same troubles as you. 

http://eveningreader.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/paris-review-robert-lowell-on-theodore-roethke/