FW: Dumb question: How much energy to pump water uphill
Bob Carne
email" bounced!
Regards, Bob.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Carne
Sent: 13 July 2010 10:23
To: 'Frank Holland'; energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Bill Bordass; Charlie Paton; Dave Watkins;
Hal....@buildingecology.com; Joe Andrews; John. Shucksmith@Virgin.
Net; Simon Gordon-Walker;
watertreatments...@claverton-energy.com
Subject: RE: Dumb question: How much energy to pump water uphill
I personally find the following formula most practical:
Flow (l/s) * Pumping Head (m) * G (gravitational constant with value
~9.8) = Power in Watts (@ 100% pumping efficiency)
Pump efficiency will depend on pump type but motor efficiency and
coupling losses are also a factor in the wire to water energy
calculation.
The 80% figure quoted by Bill is reasonable to use for clean water.
Note that efficiency of e.g. sewage pumps is much lower (often <50%) due
to their required solids handling capacity and therefore type of
impellor design.
Frictional losses are ~ proportional to the square of the velocity
through the pipes, pump and fittings - hence larger diameter pipes will
have lower frictional losses due to the lower velocity compared to a
smaller diameter pipe carrying the same flow.
In addition the longer the pipe the higher will be the frictional loss
component of the pumping head. The other component is of course the
static lift.
The pipe material will also affect the frictional losses as different
materials will have different roughness coefficients but I this is a
second order effect compared to changing pipe diameter.
Frictional losses arise throughout the pumping system so suction
pipe-work, bends, valves etc all add to the friction losses.
I hope this helps.
Regards, Bob.
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Holland [mailto:frankh...@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 12 July 2010 19:25
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Bill Bordass; Bob Carne; Charlie Paton; Dave Watkins;
Hal....@buildingecology.com; Joe Andrews; John. Shucksmith@Virgin.
Net; Simon Gordon-Walker;
watertreatments...@claverton-energy.com
Subject: Re: Dumb question: How much energy to pump water uphill
This might help
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flow-units-converter-d_405.html
and this
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pumping-water-horsepower-d_753.html
Frank
On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 16:58 +0100, B.W...@maxfordham.com wrote:
> Energy to pump water is easy if you have the right units. Pascal
> [N/m2] x metres cube per second [m3/s] = Watts [Nm/s] . As nothing is
> perfect you need to divide by say 0.8 to get the efficiency of the
> pump factored in.
>
> A metre of water is 10,000 Pascal [ on Earth that is ].
>
> Lifting 1 m3/s by one meter is 10,000 watts.
>
> The frictional loss in the pipe depends on how big it is etc. Typical
> values are 20 to 200 pascal/ metre run. The sizing is an
> economic/energy assessment of the size against pumping cost. Going a
> 1000 m with a 100 pascal/m pipe loss would have a pressure loss of
> 100,000 pascals or the equivalent of 10 metres.
>
> I leave you to do the imperial conversions !!
>
> Bill
>
>
> Max Fordham Consulting Engineers
> 42/43 Gloucester Crescent
> London NW1 7PE
> t. 020 7267 5161
> f. 020 7482 0329
> http://www.maxfordham.com
>
> Max Fordham LLP is a Limited Liability Partnership. Registered in
> England No. OC300026 Registered Office 42/43 Gloucester Crescent
> London NW1 7PE
>
>
>
> From:
> dave andrews <tynin...@gmail.com>
> To:
> Joe Andrews
> <joeka...@hotmail.com>, Bill
> Bordass <bilbo...@aol.com>,
> watertreatments...@claverton-energy.com, Claverton AB MAIN
> GROUP <energy-disc...@googlegroups.com>, Charlie Paton
<cha...@seawatergreenhouse.com>, "John. Shucksmith@Virgin. Net"
<john.sh...@virgin.net>, Bob Carne <Bob....@wessexwater.co.uk>,
Simon Gordon-Walker <simon.gor...@artesia-consulting.co.uk>, Dave
Watkins <dave.w...@utilex.co.uk>, Hal....@buildingecology.com
> Date:
> 10/07/2010 22:27
> Subject:
> Dumb question: How much energy to
> pump water uphill
> Sent by:
> energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> There you go Bill, ...
>
> Anyway what is Hal's take on the Californian thing?
>
> They need to be solar desalinating seawater, and and using solar desal
> to cool buildings, and to grow crops.......
>
> Also, once you start solar desal, you can use the coolth to make
> previoulsy uninhabialte areas habital = higher land values etc etc
>
> I was amazed at what a high proportion of Cals energy goes to water -
> in uk it is about 1% or something tiny, mainly on aeration, not
> pumping.
>
> Dave
>
> On 10 July 2010 21:12, Joe Andrews <joeka...@hotmail.com> wrote: Yes
> I'd agree. Triple static head loss. Triple friction head loss if same
> diameter, roughness and obviously viscosity of fluid. Cheers, Joe
>
> > Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 13:46:02 +0100
> > Subject: Re: [Sbse] Dumb question: How much energy to pump water
> uphill
> > From: tynin...@gmail.com
> > To:
> bilbo...@aol.com;Jerry.W...@wessexwater.co.uk;john.shucksmith@vi
> rgin.net;joeka...@hotmail.com
>
> >
> > Bill - i am not an expert but on the face of it, i would expert it
> to
> > be linear, assuming the same pipe diameter - you will have triple
> the
> > dynamic losses and triple the head losses..............
> >
> > Jerry / John / Bob / Joe / is the real expert................
> >
> > At the back of my mind, maybe you would vary the pipe diameter which
> > might change things.
> >
> > Also there would be a marginal decrease in air pressure but I don't
> > then that is ever considered.......
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > DaveAndrews
> >
> > On 9 July 2010 21:51, Bill Bordass <bilbo...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > Dear Dave
> > > I am sure you know the answer to this. I would imagine it is
> pretty well
> > > linear.
> > > With good wishes
> > > Bill
> > > ____
> > >
> > > Begin forwarded message:
> > >
> > > From: Hal Levin <Hal....@buildingecology.com>
> > > Date: 9 July 2010 21:03:05 GMT+01:00
> > > To: SBSE <sb...@uidaho.edu>
> > > Subject: [Sbse] Dumb question: How much energy to pump water
> uphill
> > > Reply-To: Hal....@buildingecology.com
> > >
> > > I'd like to know what the increment in energy requirements for
> pumping water
> > > would be between pumping from a municipal water treatment plant to
> an
> > > elevation of 300 ft, 600 ft, or 900 ft. Is the relationship
> linear, or is
> > > there a greater than linear increase in energy requirements due to
> the
> > > increased delivery altitude? Assume a standard municipal water
> supply
> > > system, perhaps a 150,000 gallons per day flow through an
> appropriately
> > > sized pipe?
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > >
> > > hal levin
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > SBSE mailing list
> > > SB...@uidaho.edu https://www.lists.uidaho.edu/mailman/listinfo/sbse
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dave Andrews
> > Claverton Energy Group
> > UK + 44 (0) 755 265 9166
> > + 44 (0) 1225 837978
> > www.claverton-energy.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Get a free e-mail account with Hotmail. Sign-up now.
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Andrews
> Claverton Energy Group
> UK + 44 (0) 755 265 9166
> + 44 (0) 1225 837978
> www.claverton-energy.com
>
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Acorn
large shovel and have a go at one of these (see link). This was
another great bit of CEGB engineering. It was conceived before the
advent of the dash for gas. You will see from the spec that you need
about a third more kWh to pump the water up the hill, than you get
when it comes down; which is typical of large pumped hydro plants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station . But; when it
comes to peak lopping and, in these days, sudden wind drops, this baby
can do nought to 1300 MW in about 11 seconds when sync'd spinning in
air. That is much quicker than one of these;
http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/gas_turbines_cc/en/stag/application.htm
. Note the hot and cold run up times are in the same ball park as
conventional steam plant. And, the GE 9H is getting down to the
magical heat rate of 6000 kJ / kWh.