Crawford/Crafford/Craford/Crayford/Cranford

[DAVID BROWN]

I can't remember if I shared this before...I was trying to connect the Crawford/Crafford/Cranford surnames that I find in Surry, Lower Norfolk, and Bertie and came up with a hypothetical (very speculative) outline of the Crawford/Crafford/Cranford family.  Maybe it will provide some more clues for us while looking at it from this perspective (and I figured it applies here b/c of Crafford connections with Phillips in Surry Co., VA).     Crawford/Crafford/Craford/Crayford/Cranford Hypothetical: There seems to be many variants of the surname Crawford including Crafford/Craford/Crayford/Cranford, but for purposes of the information below, I am using Crawford: Generation 1: (1) William Crawford born Unknown and died 1676 (where is his will?) “may have” married Ursula Horsmanden, possible sister or daughter of Warham St. Leger Horsmanden whose daughter Mary/Maria married William Byrd.  See Note 1 Below. Children: (2) William Crawford Generation 2: (2) William Crawford born Unknown and died 1699 in Norfolk Co., VA; married Margaret Unknown.  See Note 2 Below. Children:  (3) William Crawford (4) George Crawford & (5) Robert Crawford (????) Generation 3: (3) William Crawford born c.1660 and died c.1732 in Bertie Co., NC; married Mary Unknown.   See Note 3 Below.  Children:  (6) Richard Crawford (?), (7) Elizabeth, (8) Honor Others??? (4) George Crawford born c. 1660 and died Unknown; married Abigail Mason (?), daughter of Lemuel Mason (not sure of this, but Lemuel did have a daughter who married a Crawford/Crafford). Children: (9) William Crawford & (10) Abigail Crawford (5) Robert Crawford born c.1660 and died 1714 in Surry Co., VA; married Elizabeth Carter Children:  (11) Carter Crawford Generation 4: (6) Richard Crawford born c.1680 and died Unknown (7) Elizabeth m. Alexander Oliver (8) Honor m. Henry Dilday (9) William Crawford born c.1680 and died aft. 1750 in Norfolk Co., VA; Married Unknown (10) Abigail Crawford born c.1680 and died Unknown; Married Cader Conner, son of Lewis Conner and Elizabeth Daynes/Daines.   Cader Conner had sister Ann who married George Powell and were associated with William Crafford of Bertie County.   Elizabeth Daines married Anthony Lawson after death of Lewis Conner.   Anthony Lawson’s first wife was Ann Keeling who was third wife of John Martin.  From Ann Ohmsen:  When John Martin died ca. 1666, she married  John Okehum and 3rd, Lt. Col. Anthony Lawson (two children, Mary and Thomas Lawson), whose 2nd wife was Mary Gookin Mosely, widow of William Mosely and dau. of Sarah Offley Thorowgood and her second husband John Gookin.  John Martin and Ann Keeling were the parents of Joel Martin of Beaufort who in turn was the father of John Martin who married Rocksolannah Carruthers (note by David: Rocksolannah was an aunt of Sarah Carruthers who married John Rice, son of Nathaniel Rice and Anne Gibbs).  Also, Lewis Conner who was the godson of John Fulcher.  John Fulcher and his wife Ruth were divorced in 1691 and she sued for support of a son who I believe may have been the same John Fulcher who died intestate in 1715 with John Woodhouse, his uncle, qualifying as his heir.  John Fulcher, Sr., made his will in 1712, leaving most of his estate to his godson Lewis Conner and land to Horatio Woodhouse (Note by David:  We are investigating the possibility that Margaret Capps Dauley had maiden name of Woodhouse – she was great-grandmother of Sarah Carruthers who married John Rice).   (11) Carter Crawford born c.1682 and died 1743 in Surry Co., VA married Sarah Swann, daughter of Matthew Swann (Note by David:  How is he related to Samuel and John Swann, executors of the Nathaniel Rice will?). http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:3177601&id=I2541 Deeds: Carter Crafford-William Phillips, Lawnes Creek Parish, Surry Co, - VA LAND SALE, 100 ACRES - - CRAFFORD-PHILLIPS (1708) Note 1: Early Records of North Carolina  Volume II Wills, Administrations, Inventories, Deeds 1677 – 1790.  (From the Secretary of State Papers).   Abstracted by Dr. Stephen E. Bradley, Jr.   SS 874.2 (1677-1701) 23-(12) 29 Mar 1680. Joshua Lambe and William Therill both of sd county apply as the greatest creditors to administer the estate of Abraham Kimberley of this county who died intestate.  Allexander Lillington and William Wilkiston apparently held items belonging to the estate.  Signed: Jno. Jenkins, Anthony Slocum, Will Craford, Robart Holden. 29 Mar 1680.  Joshua Lambe, William Therill and Capt. William Craford post bond of 30,000 pounds of tobacco for Joshua Lambe and William Therill to administer the sd estate.  Witnessed: John Jenkins, Robt. Holden.   29-(22) 29 Mar 1680.  Alexander Lillington and William Therill both of sd county as nearest of kin apply to administer the estate of Thomas Cooke who died intestate.  Robart West and Timothy Meads to appraise.  Signed: John Jenkins, Anthony Slocum, Robt. Holden, William Crafford.   184-(156) 15 Nov 1676 in London .  Peter Carteret of Island of Jersey in County of Hampshire grants power of attorney to Capt. Wm. Craford of Albemarle Co., in Province of Carolina.  Witnessed by John Speire, J.H. Gregorie, John Harvey, Thomas Harvey.   24 Nov 1677.  John Harvey testified before Timo. Biggs.   William Crafford is named as “friend” in the will of Dorothy Harvey (her maiden name was Tooke).  Her husband was Governor of Carolina and it is believed he was an uncle to Joseph & Matthew Commander.   In 1763, Joshua Sugg purchased land from Samuel Commander.   Note 2:   http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/nc-pcfr/2006-09/1158065408 From: "Bill Kittrell" < wb...@earthlink.net> Subject: [NC-PCFR] CRAWFORD Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:50:08 -0400 Source: Abstract of Norfolk County, Virginia Wills (notes in this abstract indicate most of this will was torn and very few names given. I am giving the names shown. William Crawford Will of Sept 26, 1699 proved Mar 16, 1699/1700 Walter Cocke and Thomas Cocke mentioned. Wife: Margaret Crawford Grandchildren: (not sure if these might be children) William Crawford and Abigail Crawford. It appears they were not 18 at the time of this will. Servant: Anthony to be sent back to Plymouth and passage paid Executor: James Cocke, of Plymouth as sole Exec Other names mentioned: Mr. Matthews, Samuel Baush, Thomas Hodges Mentions the ship Hope Note 3: By Bill R. Linder (deceased), Arlington, Virginia: Dinah Taylor sold 640 acres in Bertie County, North Carolina, to one Joseph Wat[s]ford in 1737.  The land was on the "Long Branch of Kellum," adjoining Andrew Stevenson, James Boon[e], and Thomas Mann. A witness was John Joyce, who had been associated with the Richard Taylor family in Norfolk County. This witnessing by John Joyce solidifies the tie between Bertie County and Norfolk County.  The question remained - How did Dinah Taylor acquire the land she was selling? No record has yet been found to show that the 640 acres ever belonged to Richard Taylor. Richard Taylor was deceased by 1734 when his estate was administered in Norfolk County.  Let's take a look at a few Watford transactions in Bertie County. Watford, by the way, was a Norfolk County family. On 21 Mar 1723, Joseph Watford bought for 6 pounds, 100 acres on Killem Swamp adjoining Andrew Stevenson from James Boon and wife Elizabeth. On the same day, 21 Mar 1723, Joseph Watford witnessed when James Boon and wife Elizabeth sold for 8 pounds to James Norville, 100 acres on Killem Swamp adjoining Thomas Mann, Andrew Stephenson, and James Boon.  On 13 Mar 1724, Joseph Watford bought for 34 pounds, 130 acres on Killem Swamp adjoining Stevenson from Andrew Stevenson.   Now, absorb this. About this same time, one Dianah Ballentine appointed Joseph Watford power of attorney. On 24 Jan 1723/24 "… whereas George Ballentine dyed the twenty-first day this Instant January … leaving me … by will January 14, 1723 … executrix …" I do appoint Joseph Watford to make proof of said will, and have power of atty. to manage estate. Wit: William Cranford, Francis Brown. May Ct. 1724. John Sutton D. C/C.  (Note by David:  Dinah Taylor died in Norfolk Co., VA after 1750 – am looking at her as a possibility for mother of Joshua Sugg and his brothers as their “legal” names were changed from Taylor to Sugg at the request of Moses Sugg to the NC Legislature in 1784) Early Records of North Carolina Volume V: Wills 1723-1736 (From the Secretary of State Papers) Abstracted by Dr. Stephen E. Bradley, Jr.   111. William Crawford 12 May 1732  LGB-4/140 13 Jan 1735 Of Chowan Precinct.  “very Sick and Weak” Eldest daughter Elizabeth the wife of Alexander Oliver – 58 acres where he now lives for their lifetimes & then to their eldest daughter Mary Oliver.  Sd granddaughter Mary Oliver – cow, pewter dish.  Daughter Honnor wife of Henry Dillday – pewter dish & provisions I have already given.  Wife Mary – 120 acres, livestock, etc. during her lifetime, and then to my 2 grandson William Crawford & Thomas Jenkins.  Other legacies & provisions.  Ex. Wife, grandson William Crawford.  Wit: Joseph Vann, Ann Vann, Richard Taylor. NOTE BY DAVID:   How interesting that Richard Taylor is mentioned here as  he appears to be the same person as the second husband of Dinah whose maiden name is unknown, but she first married George Ballentine.  When Dinah Ballentine’s first husband died, she appointed Joseph Watford power of attorney. On 24 Jan 1723/24 "… whereas George Ballentine dyed the twenty-first day this Instant January … leaving me … by will January 14, 1723 … executrix …" I do appoint Joseph Watford to make proof of said will, and have power of atty. to manage estate. Wit: William Cranford, Francis Brown. May Ct. 1724. John Sutton D. C/C.   Dinah Taylor sold 640 acres in Bertie County, North Carolina, to one Joseph Wat[s]ford in 1737.    The land was on the "Long Branch of Kellum," adjoining Andrew Stevenson, James Boon[e], and Thomas Mann. A witness was John Joyce, who had been associated with the Richard Taylor family in Norfolk County. This witnessing by John Joyce solidifies the tie between Bertie County and Norfolk County.   The question remained - How did Dinah Taylor acquire the land she was selling? No record has yet been found to show that the 640 acres ever belonged to Richard Taylor. Richard Taylor was deceased by 1734 when his estate was administered in Norfolk County.   http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/cranford/1999-03/0921360909 Before the Craffords moved to Onslow County, there was a record of William Crafford of Wicacon Creek in what is now Hertford County, North Carolina. He was born by 1660, for in 1722 he had a married grandson. He made his will 12 May 1732. He named his wife Mary; three daughters; and a grandson William Crafford who soon after his grandfather's death removed to New River, Onslow County North Carolina. >From the fact that his grandson and namesake became clerk of court for Onslow County, it is supposed that the elder William also held some public charge, perhaps as a surveyor or clerk attached to the Bertie land office where he performed legal services. His name appears some 30 times in Chowan and Bertie records, usually as a witness to deeds and wills, and usually involving neighbors in the Wicacon Creek area. He bought and sold land himself after 1717. In 1721 he was granted two tracts of 640 acres each, and we may suppose that the grants were for services to the local government. In 1730., William sold 1060 acres on Red Branch, Cypress Swamp and on Chinkapin Neck, including 120 acres on Wicacon Creek "where William Crafford now lives." (In a footnote the author has information indicating that a Capt. William Crafford was in Norfold (sic) County, Virginia. His will was dated 26 September 1699. He removed to Lower Norfolk County, Virginia-Pasquotank Precinct-later placed in North Carolina.) The Craffords must have had a better-than-average education for the times, for the father of James and John, as well as their great-grandfather, had held clerical positions. William of Wicacon-mentioned above as having made his will 12 May 1732-outlived his son who was presumably named Richard. No son is mentioned in his will but the grandson William who moved later to Onslow County.  Richard probably died before 1735. William's wife, Mary was named as executrix.

[r.phill...@sbcglobal.net]

David- Keep in mind that we were able to trace a descendant of
Hartwell Phillips, son of John Phillips of Surry Co. whose will was
probated in 1759 (and his wife Martha Crafford, dau of Robert
Crafford). Some of us paid for his DNA tests. his results matched
with no one in the program. His results are shown in kit # 97605 (in
the Unassigned group).

On Dec 11, 10:12 pm, DAVID BROWN <dbrown...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>  I can't remember if I shared this before...I was trying to connect the Crawford/Crafford/Cranford surnames that I find in Surry, Lower Norfolk, and Bertie and came up with a hypothetical (very speculative) outline of the Crawford/Crafford/Cranford family.  Maybe it will provide some more clues for us while looking at it from this perspective (and I figured it applies here b/c of Crafford connections with Phillips in Surry Co., VA).  
>  
> Crawford/Crafford/Craford/Crayford/Cranford Hypothetical:
> There seems to be many variants of the surname Crawford including Crafford/Craford/Crayford/Cranford, but for purposes of the information below, I am using Crawford:
> Generation 1:
> (1) William Crawford born Unknown and died 1676 (where is his will?) “may have” married Ursula Horsmanden, possible sister or daughter of Warham St. Leger Horsmanden whose daughter Mary/Maria married William Byrd.  See Note 1 Below.
> Children: (2) William Crawford
> Generation 2:
> (2) William Crawford born Unknown and died 1699 in Norfolk Co., VA; married Margaret Unknown.  See Note 2 Below.
> Children:  (3) William Crawford (4) George Crawford & (5) Robert Crawford (????)
> Generation 3:
> (3) William Crawford born c.1660 and died c.1732 in Bertie Co., NC; married Mary Unknown.   See Note 3 Below. 
> Children:  (6) Richard Crawford (?), (7) Elizabeth, (8) Honor Others???
> (4) George Crawford born c. 1660 and died Unknown; married Abigail Mason (?), daughter of Lemuel Mason (not sure of this, but Lemuel did have a daughter who married a Crawford/Crafford).
> Children: (9) William Crawford & (10) Abigail Crawford
> (5) Robert Crawford born c.1660 and died 1714 in Surry Co., VA; married Elizabeth Carter
> Children:  (11) Carter Crawford
> Generation 4:
> (6) Richard Crawford born c.1680 and died Unknown
> (7) Elizabeth m. Alexander Oliver
> (8) Honor m. Henry Dilday
> (9) William Crawford born c.1680 and died aft. 1750 in Norfolk Co., VA; Married Unknown
> (10) Abigail Crawford born c.1680 and died Unknown; Married Cader Conner, son of Lewis Conner and Elizabeth Daynes/Daines.   Cader Conner had sister Ann who married George Powell and were associated with William Crafford of Bertie County.   Elizabeth Daines married Anthony Lawson after death of Lewis Conner.   Anthony Lawson’s first wife was Ann Keeling who was third wife of John Martin.  From Ann Ohmsen:  When John Martin died ca. 1666, she married  John Okehum and 3rd, Lt. Col. Anthony Lawson (two children, Mary and Thomas Lawson), whose 2nd wife was Mary Gookin Mosely, widow of William Mosely and dau. of Sarah Offley Thorowgood and her second husband John Gookin.  John Martin and Ann Keeling were the parents of Joel Martin of Beaufort who in turn was the father of John Martin who married Rocksolannah Carruthers (note by David: Rocksolannah was an aunt of Sarah Carruthers who married John Rice, son of Nathaniel Rice and Anne Gibbs).  Also,
>  Lewis Conner who was the godson of John Fulcher.  John Fulcher and his wife Ruth were divorced in 1691 and she sued for support of a son who I believe may have been the same John Fulcher who died intestate in 1715 with John Woodhouse, his uncle, qualifying as his heir.  John Fulcher, Sr., made his will in 1712, leaving most of his estate to his godson Lewis Conner and land to Horatio Woodhouse (Note by David:  We are investigating the possibility that Margaret Capps Dauley had maiden name of Woodhouse – she was great-grandmother of Sarah Carruthers who married John Rice).  

> (11) Carter Crawford born c.1682 and died 1743 in Surry Co., VA married Sarah Swann, daughter of Matthew Swann (Note by David:  How is he related to Samuel and John Swann, executors of the Nathaniel Rice will?).http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:3177601&id...

>  http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/cranford/1999-03/092136...

[Tom and Jane Hutchison]

I think there was a paternal event on the Hartwell Phillips line. Using that
marker test..I fed the info into ySearch and Goddard family comes up as the
nearest marker match. There also is a Clement Phillips in ysearch that is
closer to Hartwell's markers but a few more steps off. I would like to see
more from the line and not particularly Hartwell's line. The markers were
mismatched by 5, however I did not check for the mutating markers..and there
were some that were from the higher mutation markers. It is possible that
instead of being 5 off..could be 3 or 2 at 37 which would technically make
him a Goddard.
Given that there was only one Goddard I could find in the 1600's VA(Anthony
Goddard 1660's) and none in 1700's VA or NC. I think it would point to a
closer paternal event in the 1800's. I could be wrong about that, but the
Goddard family was concentrated in New England in the 1600's and 1700's....
Given some of the family connections and name similarities I am not ready to
rule out the Hartwell Family just yet but have put them on the back burner.
Rex I did mean to point out there is a 80 something year male Phillips in
the PG area of VA, near Riven Rd which was an old 1800's designation that I
think some of John Phillips descendents look to have been in the 1800's.
Would be interested in seeing if his family is old VA. Also found another
Phillips in Accomack Co., claims his property has been in his family over
200 years. Trying to make contact with him...would like to at least get that
DNA into the Grid.

Tom

[DAVID BROWN]

Thanks for the clarification on the Hartwell Phillips line.    Tom, I'm going to look into the Goddard family some more too and see if I can find anything.   David --- On Sat, 12/13/08, Tom and Jane Hutchison <tjhut...@optonline.net> wrote:

[Nancy Kiser]

Hi, everyone,

Unfortunately, Hartwell doesn't belong to my project so I can't look at his recent matches, but I have some year-old notes on him. One year ago he had two matches at the 25 marker level, which means he did not mismatch them on more than 2 markers. Those matches were as follows: A.M. Graham and Jack German. As I recall, the German match was particularly interesting, since Jack German's earliest known ancestor was James Jarman who was born about 1799 in Tyrrell Co NC.

Also, in August some results returned on a New Zealander, and he was a perfect 12/12 match with Hartwell. Unfortunately, the New Zealander only did the 12 marker test and showed no interest in upgrading. As we all know, a 12 marker match is not bankable.

Sincerely,
Nancy Kiser
Administrator
Phillips DNA Project

--- On Sat, 12/13/08, DAVID BROWN <dbro...@prodigy.net> wrote:

[Tom & Jane Hutchison]

Thanks Nancy...! We need to look at that family to see if they interacted...

 

I should have pointed out that at the 37 with 5 mismatch level there were others mixed in, a Smith offhand I remember..so it is possible the Jack German might have been in that mix if he uploaded to ySearch, but I focused on Goddard as the majority..6 or 7 were all Goddards and I guess genetically, the Jack German could have been a Goddard or vise-versa. It is a pain, but I will run that again this afternoon or tonight. You have to manually enter all the markers then search. Will look at everything, then print the comparative chart to see who else is in there and see if I can find some public patriarch lists of the families.

 

I think what I am getting at is...(1) If Hartwell took in a nephew, or son of a cousin for a woman that was a Phillips, and raised him as his own..gave him the Phillips name, that could be the break point. (2) Social interaction on a mom's part (3) unknown marriage of Hartwell's wife or earlier again, raising as his own son when in fact it was a step son...adopted neighbors son. We just do not know.

 

Nancy- clarify a bit...Does FTDNA search all databases for a match to you or just within the project you belong to. It did not for me, until I joined another project with the surname I thought I matched... I did my own research on ySearch and Ancestry DNA, then joined the other project and then FTDNA did the matching.

 

Tom

 > > of Woodhouse -

 > > she

 > > > was great-grandmother of Sarah Carruthers who married

 > > John Rice).

 > > > (11) Carter Crawford born c.1682 and died 1743 in

 > > Surry Co., VA married

 > > > Sarah Swann, daughter of Matthew Swann (Note by David:

 > > How is he related

 > > > to Samuel and John Swann, executors of the Nathaniel

 > > Rice

 > > >

 > > will?).http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:3177601&id...

 > > > Deeds: Carter Crafford-William Phillips, Lawnes Creek

 > > Parish, Surry Co,

 > > > - VA LAND SALE, 100 ACRES -

 > > > - CRAFFORD-PHILLIPS (1708)

 > > > Note 1:

 > > > Early Records of North Carolina Volume II Wills,

 > > Administrations,

 > > > Inventories, Deeds 1677 - 1790. (From the Secretary

 > > > Jan 1723/24 "... whereas George Ballentine dyed

 > > the twenty-first day

 > > this

 > > > Instant January ... leaving me ... by will January 14,

 > > 1723 ... executrix

 > > ..." I

 > > > do appoint Joseph Watford to make proof of said will,

 > > and have power of

 > > > atty. to manage estate. Wit: William Cranford, Francis

 > > Brown. May Ct.

 > > > 1724. John Sutton D. C/C. (Note by David: Dinah Taylor

 > > died in Norfolk

 > > > Co., VA after 1750 - am looking at her as a

 > > possibility for mother of

 > > > Joshua Sugg and his brothers as their "legal"

 > > names were changed from

 > > > Taylor to Sugg at the request of Moses Sugg to the NC

 > > Legislature in 1784)

 > > > Early Records of North Carolina Volume V: Wills

 > > 1723-1736 (From the

 > > > Secretary of State Papers) Abstracted by Dr. Stephen

 > > E. Bradley, Jr.

 > > >

 > > > 111. William Crawford 12 May 1732 LGB-4/140 13 Jan

 > > 1735

 > > > Of Chowan Precinct. "very Sick and Weak"

 > > > Eldest daughter Elizabeth the wife of Alexander Oliver

 > > - 58 acres where

 > > he

 > > > now lives for their lifetimes & then to their

 > > eldest daughter Mary

 > > Oliver.

 > > > Sd granddaughter Mary Oliver - cow, pewter dish.

 > > Daughter Honnor wife of

 > >

 > > > Henry Dillday - pewter dish & provisions I have

 > > already given. Wife

 > > Mary -

 > > > 120 acres, livestock, etc. during her lifetime, and

 > > then to my 2 grandson

 > > > William Crawford & Thomas Jenkins. Other legacies

 > > & provisions.

 > > Ex. Wife,

 > > > grandson William Crawford. Wit: Joseph Vann, Ann Vann,

 > > Richard Taylor.

 > > > NOTE BY DAVID: How interesting that Richard Taylor is

 > > mentioned here as he

 > >

 > > > appears to be the same person as the second husband of

 > > Dinah whose maiden

 > > > name is unknown, but she first married George

 > > Ballentine. When Dinah

 > > > Ballentine's first husband died, she appointed

 > > Joseph Watford power of

 > > > attorney. On 24 Jan 1723/24 "... whereas George

 > > Ballentine dyed the

 > > > twenty-first day this Instant January ... leaving me

 > > ... by will January

 > > 14,

 > > > 1723 ... executrix ..." I do appoint Joseph

[Nancy Kiser]

If you elect to be compared to everyone in FTDNA's database, they will compare your results to everyone has also made that election. Unfortunately, the "default" election is to only be compared with members of your group, if you belong to a group. So you have to access your personal page and manually change your election to be compared to everyone in the database. I am sure there are lots and lots of people in the database who have never made that change, so their results are only be compared to a very limited number of people.

--- On Sat, 12/13/08, Tom & Jane Hutchison <tjhut...@optonline.net> wrote:

[Tom & Jane Hutchison]

Well that explains it !

 

Thanks Nancy

--------Original Message-------

From:  Nancy Kiser nancy...@yahoo.com

To:  <ENCPhilli...@googlegroups.com>

[r.phill...@sbcglobal.net]

Tom- Even if you throw out 3 of the 5 mutations, with a 35 of 37
match there is only a 75 % chance that you have a common ancestor
within roughly 200 years ( 9+ generations). (Mile Phillips and I have
a 36 of 37 match and we are back to 8 generations without any common
ancestor) To me this would make a Hartwell parental event pretty
unlikely as a Goddard match.

One other thing I should have mentioned on the Crafford / Phillips
connections. John Crafford, who was a son of Crafford Cater, Sr., the
half brother of Martha who married John PHillips , and father of
Hartwell, lived adajacent to two pieces of property which was willed
by William and Mary Swann Phillips to their children. These two
pieces were land willed to Mary and Sarah Swann by their father.
Sarah Swann married Carter Crafford (Sr.) and they subsequently sold
their 100 acres to William and Mary Swann Phillips. Here is John's
Crafford Estate Account:

NOTE: Pg 103, Surry County, Virginia Deeds and Estate Accounts
1756-1787, By William Lindsay Hopkins. (p266) 19 Jan 1762 ...
Account of Estate of JOHN CRAFFORD, decd., lists Quit Rent on 430
acres of land, Benjamin Newsum, John Drew, William Salter, Abraham
Mitchell, Francis Little, ESTATE OF SARAH PHILLIPS, William Savidge,
John Pope, Henry Weatherbond, James Barlow, John Newsum, James Jones,
James Cason, Carter Crafford as Executor of Estate of JOHN PHILLIPS,
DECD., William Godwin, Anselm Bailey.
Witness: William Philips Edwards, William Cornwell, John Beriman and
Thomas Hart.

Sarah Phillips was the wife of William Phillips, Jr. The Carter
Crafford listed here is the nephew of Carter, Sr and he was administer
of the will of John, the father of Hartwell Phillips. William
Phhilips Edwards was the son of Mary Phillips Edwards, dau of William
and Mary Swann Phillips.




On Dec 13, 12:28 pm, Tom and Jane Hutchison <tjhutch...@optonline.net>
wrote:

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[r.phill...@sbcglobal.net]

Tom- Ther eis one other possibility regarding the supposed Hartwell
Phillips descendant. I can't find the copy I had of Phil's (the
Hartwell descendant) "Tree" but I remember that several of his
ancestors had the name "Battle" as their middle name. It bothered me
then and still does because it indicates a strong connection to the
Battle family. The David Phillips line, which to my knowledge and
belief has no familial connection to the Phillips from which Hartwell
of Surry came, had a connection with the battles beginning in 1678
when David and John Batle wer both living in the benj. harrison
household in Soutwark parish of Surry co. Then in 1683 David
purchased 85 acres adj. to John Battle, Thomas Battle and Benj.
Harrison (David's heir later sold this land to Harrison). Finally in
Apr. 1763, John Phillips (son of Thomas and GS of David Phillips) sold
land which he had inheirited from Thomas to John Battle of Sussex co.
I am not sure where that john Phillips wound up but I am pretty sure
the Battles wound up in Edgecomb, NC. If Phil made a mistake in his
genealogy and his connection was to the Phillips of David it could
make a big difference. We found a descendant of David still living in
VA and I wrote to him trying to get him into the DNA program but he
never even responded to the letter. If we could have gotten his DNA
we would know for sure if Phil was from that line. In the Phillips
Forum there was another Hartwell listed who had the following message
in 2001. As best as I can tell this is a different Hartwell. Nobody
responded to him in 2001 and he did not answer a 2008 response,

"My name is Hartwell Philips, Jr. My father,Hartwell Philips was born
in North Carolina. He was named after a Hartwell Philips who came to
NC sometime around 1600 from England. Obviously, we are somehow
related to this Hartwell Philips, but I was not aware of it despite
the fact that I have a great uncle who did a tremendous amount of
genealogy work and gave me a book on it. I don't know about that
spelling of two l's because the record I have showed my distant
grandfather from 1600 spelled his name with one L."

I guess my point is I don't know how to be sure that the Hartwell
descendant in the DNA program is actaully a descndant of John Phillips
who d.1759 Surry Co. VA

On Dec 13, 12:28 pm, Tom and Jane Hutchison <tjhutch...@optonline.net>
wrote:

[Tom & Jane Hutchison]

Hi Rex

 

Sorry long read...

 

I don't think you can look at this in a linear fashion. The connection would start at where ever the paternal event took place. That paternal event might tie back to another family at an additional generation gaps.

 

I don't know if I can visualize that in an email. Chart would be better, but here goes...

 

In 1600 a Goddard family has 5 boys...of those 5 - 4 are charted easily..1 is not..say a wander or sailor, different port every month. In his life he has just one son who passes down through 6 generations to 1800 when a Goddard Male that comes to America. Say he marries a girl, dies 2 years after his son's birth, and the girl remarries a Phillips and the son she had with the Goddard Male takes the Phillips name.

Meanwhile the 4 that are easily charted come to America and have large families. There are already 6 generations separating the common male ancestor.

 

The split occurred at 1600, but the tie to another surname doesn't occur till 1800, then later-6 generations more when tested DNA wise. They do share the same DNA just further back...12 generations.

 

Now say...the Goddard who came to America had a brother that did also and his line is traced well and a descendant is tested..He would have the same tie to the 1600 Goddard, but a closer match to the Goddard that took the Phillips name. 6 generations instead of 12...i.e. the smoking gun.

 

It could very well be the John Phillips of Surry was a Goddard tied back to 1600 England. Theoretically all of John Phillips's descendants would test as Goddard, but match each other closely since he is the known start point.

 

Now all that being said..you can also say....the 4 brothers that had a traceable lines....went to America...none knew the 5th brother...the sailor, died at sea and left 5 orphan boys...at home....being in a good parish...3 families stepped up or 4...whatever...the Greens...the Blacks...the Phillips...and the German...and took them in and raise them as their own and they took their name.

 

I can't remember what the term is, Nancy might help..common Bridge Ancestor..that's not right. Something like that. There is a special name......

 

For me... I tested to a Family that is documented to Maryland coming from England...late 1600's. Of that family I am related back to them at 300 + years...it could be that I really come down from the immigrant of late 1600's or a brother of his that came later...there is another in my group...that matches to that family at the same level as me....however him and I match at a much closer level in about 250 years....we could come down together from the brother say to the point where they split.

 

I guess what I am pointing at in a scientific sense..you can not read one's test and call it conclusive...they match no one. There should at least be 3 more, preferably from others lines. A better mix...to group downward towards the donor. Say two come forward, from Hartwell's brother's line, Joseph..they match, but not to Hartwell, there is the break...unfortunately Hartwell had only one known son that had children, Fredrick. Even Fredrick appears to have had only one son.

 

Tom

 > > > possibility that Margaret Capps Dauley had maiden name of Woodhouse - she

 > > > was great-grandmother of Sarah Carruthers who married John Rice).

 > > > (11) Carter Crawford born c.1682 and died 1743 in Surry Co., VA married

 > > > Sarah Swann, daughter of Matthew Swann (Note by David: How is he related

 > > > to Samuel and John Swann, executors of the Nathaniel Rice

 > > > will?).http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:3177601&id...

 > > > Deeds: Carter Crafford-William Phillips, Lawnes Creek Parish, Surry Co,

 > > > - VA LAND SALE, 100 ACRES -

 > > > - CRAFFORD-PHILLIPS (1708)

 > > > Note 1:

 > > > Early Records of North Carolina Volume II Wills, Administrations,

 > > > Inventories, Deeds 1677 - 1790. (From the Secretary of State Papers).

[Nancy Kiser]

Hi, Tom,

I logged onto ysearch and entered Hartwell's markers, and it looks like he is probably not related to the Goddards within 1000 years. He mismatches them on markers 19, 458, 464d and 570. On 464d and 570, he mismatches by two steps, which is significant. He is no doubt distantly related to these Goddards, but probably the common ancestor lived in Europe before the time that people started using last names.

I think the Jarman/German connection is more promising. Hartwell Phillips and Jack German match each other perfectly on markers 464a, b, c and d. This is significant, because these markers are the fastest mutating of all the markers tested. Also, I seem to remember Martha telling me the surname Jarman/German was fairly common in the area of Craven Co NC. Is that right, Martha?

Jack German posted his pedigree and it indicated his earliest known ancestor was James Jarman who was supposedly born about 1799 in Tyrrell County, NC, which is not far from Craven Co. John German, the son of James Jarman, was supposedly born in McNairy Co TN. This means Jack's Jarman/German ancestors lived near the ancestors of some of the participants in Family Group 5. If Jack German would up grade to 37 markers, we could tell for certain whether or not he is really related to Hartwell. If he is really related to Hartwell, this might mean Hartwell is a Jarman/German rather than a Phillips.

Nancy

--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Tom & Jane Hutchison <tjhut...@optonline.net> wrote:

> From: Tom & Jane Hutchison <tjhut...@optonline.net>

> family I am related back to them at 300 years...it could

> > within roughly 200 years ( 9 generations). (Mile

> > On Dec 13, 12:28pm, Tom and Jane Hutchison

[Martha Marble]

At 05:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:

>Hi, Tom,
>
>I logged onto ysearch and entered Hartwell's markers, and it looks like he
>is probably not related to the Goddards within 1000 years. He mismatches
>them on markers 19, 458, 464d and 570. On 464d and 570, he mismatches by
>two steps, which is significant. He is no doubt distantly related to
>these Goddards, but probably the common ancestor lived in Europe before
>the time that people started using last names.
>
>I think the Jarman/German connection is more promising. Hartwell Phillips
>and Jack German match each other perfectly on markers 464a, b, c and
>d. This is significant, because these markers are the fastest mutating of
>all the markers tested. Also, I seem to remember Martha telling me the
>surname Jarman/German was fairly common in the area of Craven Co NC. Is
>that right, Martha?

Yes, but as far as I know it is a Paletine family of Swiss/German
background at least in this area. Could be wrong and would have to check it
out.

Martha

[Tom and Jane Hutchison]

Pasting something I don't know that will show, I hope they do, it is quite interesting.......I'll check it, if not I'll link it to a page on the site. DNA genealogy is basically a statistics game...

 

What I am finding is what I questioned at the very beginning of this quest...so to speak... it is all in the probabilities of what you know.

 

Hartwell is 97605..the other Phillips is 7MJ5E Goddards are the others....

 

Ran y-utility program to show the matching and determine the probability 50/50 chance. Flipping a coin? Is this the common ancestor, heads yes, tails no, go to the next generation. Once you get out to 99%, it you could be out at 2000 years for a guarantee in Sorenson, and 1000 years with FTDNA mutation rates @ 30 years per generation...like Nancy said.

 

50%-30 years per generation...

 

Using Sorenson(strict) still just beyond surname as Hartwell to Goddard is at 660 years 1400's, Funny thing is 7MJ5E is Phillips surname and at 960 years from Hartwell Phillips. Remember that is at 50/50 chance.

 

Using FTDNA basis it drops to 360 to 450 years which is in a genealogical time frame.

 

Ran at 75 % and it of course went up by 1/2

 

Using FTDNA basis it ups to 510 to 600 years which is getting out pass a genealogical time frame again.

 

Ran at 75% at 25 years per generation...FTDNA basis...back down to 425 years to 500 years. Statistical game..what you feed in...determines the outcome.

 

 

What we need to do, is find more from the John of Surry line and see if they match Hartwell or not....which is what I am trying to say. If it was cut and dry and a Goddard lived next door to Hartwell Phillips on a census, or found an early deed with them sharing a common line...then a different line of thought

 

...but that is not the case. So we are back to, we need more donors from the John of Surry line to make any kind of definitive answer.

 

I should run group 5 through this program at 50, 75 & 95% and see what pops out year wise. Could be interesting...

 

I have come to realize that DNA is not the total answer. It is like getting a map to tell you were you should be looking, but that map could be a 500 sq. miles. Who knows in 20 years...could be more exact...right now it is a statistics game.

 

Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (Years)
ID	m o d a l	V 9 3 A 6	7 M J 5 E	B 6 S Q 2	G 7 M 5 T	N X 2 F N	9 7 6 0 5
modal	37	360	1110	90	90	240	660
V93A6	360	37	1290	360	360	510	810
7MJ5E	1110	1290	37	1110	1110	960	960
B6SQ2	90	360	1110	37	90	240	660
G7M5T	90	360	1110	90	37	240	660
NX2FN	240	510	960	240	240	37	810
97605	660	810	960	660	660	810	37
0-270 Years 300-570 Years 600-870 Years 900-1170 Years
- Infinite allele mutation model is used - Average mutation rate varies: 0.0031 to 0.0031      rates derived by Doug McDonald from the Sorenson database - Values on the diagonal indicate number of markers tested - Probability is 50% that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated - Average generation: 30 years

 

 

Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (Years)
ID	m o d a l	V 9 3 A 6	7 M J 5 E	B 6 S Q 2	G 7 M 5 T	N X 2 F N	9 7 6 0 5
modal	37	210	630	60	60	120	360
V93A6	210	37	720	210	210	300	450
7MJ5E	630	720	37	630	630	540	540
B6SQ2	60	210	630	37	60	120	360
G7M5T	60	210	630	60	37	120	360
NX2FN	120	300	540	120	120	37	450
97605	360	450	540	360	360	450	37
0-270 Years 300-570 Years 600-870 Years 900-1170 Years
- Infinite allele mutation model is used - Average mutation rate varies: 0.0054 to 0.0054, from FTDNA derived rates - Values on the diagonal indicate number of markers tested - Probability is 50% that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated - Average generation: 30 years

 

Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (Years)
ID	m o d a l	V 9 3 A 6	7 M J 5 E	B 6 S Q 2	G 7 M 5 T	N X 2 F N	9 7 6 0 5
modal	37	300	810	120	120	210	510
V93A6	300	37	900	300	300	390	600
7MJ5E	810	900	37	810	810	690	690
B6SQ2	120	300	810	37	120	210	510
G7M5T	120	300	810	120	37	210	510
NX2FN	210	390	690	210	210	37	600
97605	510	600	690	510	510	600	37
0-270 Years 300-570 Years 600-870 Years 900-1170 Years
- Infinite allele mutation model is used - Average mutation rate varies: 0.0054 to 0.0054, from FTDNA derived rates - Values on the diagonal indicate number of markers tested - Probability is 75% that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated - Average generaton: 30 years