Multiclass Characters
thecastlekeeper
I found the explination for multiclass ability restrictions. Its buried on page 18 of the PHB, last paragraph. You gain all benefits of the specific multiclass classes, except when combined with Theif. In which case, you are restricted to theif weapons and armor.
So a fighter/magic user can wear any armor, cast his spells, and use any weapons. But a fighter/magic user/theif can still cast spells, but is restricted to leather armor or less, and the theif's weapons list.
UA expanded this with regard to the type of armor the theif was wearing, allowing them to take Studded Leather with a penalty to their thief skills (this also applies to single class theives, and to assassins and acrobats).
Xp earned is split evenly between the classes, and hit points rolled (plus any Con bonus or penalty) are divided by the number of classes. This continues, even if a class has reached its racial maximum. The "peter principle" class still gains xp but no levels or benifits (ouch). Saves and THAC0 are from whichever class is better.
Rod
D. Stephen Raymond
descriptions of the multi-class characters seem to indicate that, even
when combined with thief, you can still wear other armor or use other
weapons. You just cannot perform thief activities (opening locks,
picking pockets, listening at doors) if wearing other armor than that
allowed for thieves, or backstab except with weapons allowed to thieves
(and specifically listed as weapons with which a thief can backstab).
I haven't dug out my first edition books yet, so I may have to wait
until I'm back at Rod's to see his PHB.
At this time Yellow Jack is wearing leather armor, and using weapons
allowed to thieves. But I'll want to see if his repetoire of armor and
weapons will have to remain that limited.
Stephe
Rodney E. Barnes
You are correct.
/Seminary Mode On
Page 18 reads "Note that non-human and semi-human race characters who are
multi-classed are typically bound by the limitation of the thief class only.
That is, a fighter/magic-user can benefit from both armor, weaponry, and
spells; a fighter/thief is limited by the constraints of the thief class."
Upon further reading, it is only the armor limitation of the Thief class
that Gary is talking about on page 18 when he says "constraints", as he
clarifies it on page 32 under Cleric/Thief. "As with all thief class
combinations, however, any functions as a thief are under the restrictions
of that class with regard to armor, i.e. only leather armor and no shield."
As he states on page 33 under Fighter/Thief, "the armor, weapons, and combat
capabilities of the fighter with the stealth and other abilities of the
thief...even though thieving functions restrict the character to leather
armor and no shield." This was then expanded in Unearthed Arcana on page
22, adding Thieves Table II, granting bonuses for no armor, and penalties
for Elfin Chain, Studded Leather, and Padded Armor to thieving abilities.
Other armors still prevent the use of any thieving abilities. Back stabbing
is limited to Club, Dagger, or swords (short, broad, and long only) as per
page 27 PHB.
/Seminary Mode Off
In Summery: Multi-class thieves can wear whatever armor their other classes
allow (or thief class allows if it's better). However, they can only use
their thief skills; unarmored for bonuses. Leather armor as normal. Elfin
chain, Studded Leather, or Padded Armor for penalties and no dex bonus.
Multi-class thieves can use any weapons their other classes allow (or thief
class allows if it's better), but can only use Club, Dagger, Short Sword,
Broad Sword, and Long Sword to Backstab.
Rod
mo .....
Rod
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thecastlekeeper
So, in more Mo friendly language; Don't worry about it, he's fine.
Rod
D. Stephen Raymond
If you wear leather armor, you will not have any bonuses or penalties to
your thieving skills. If you wear no armor, you will have bonuses to
some of your thieving skills.
Stephe (the other asset reallocation specialist)
> im having trouble with all the big words --
mo .....
--
D. Stephen Raymond
thieving skills while wearing it. It's the most protective type of armor
they can wear (other than elven chain, which also has some penalties,
though less than studded leather). I believe the chart with the
penalties for elven chain and studded leather, and the bonuses for no
armor, are in Unearthed Arcana.
Stephe
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thecastlekeeper
Yes, I'll let you sell it back at full book as your character would have known this. You should just go without armor.
//Short Answer Mode Off
If you are going to function as the arcanist and primary theif, with Stephe as a frontline fighter and backup thief; then I would just go unarmored for now, as you'll eventually pick up protection toys, and the bonuses for being unarmored to your thief skills are worth it at this level since your not a primary combatant.
With Leather Armor, there is no bonus or penalty for a Thief, and they do get to use the Dexterity bonuses for their Thief skills.
In Elfin Chain, they do NOT get to use the Dexterity bonuses for Theif Skills; And they are at a -5 to Open Locks, Find/Remove Traps, and Hear Noise, -10 to Move Silently and Hide in Shadows, and -20 to Pick Pockets and Climbing.
In Studded Leather or Padded Armor, they do NOT get to use the Dexterity bonuses for Thief Skills; And, they are at a -30 to Pick Pockets and Climbing, - 20 to Move Silently, Hear Noise, and Hide in Shadows, and -10 to Open Locks and Find/Remove Traps.
So you CAN wear it and use your theif skills, you are just truely awful at them.
If you don't wear armor, you get the Dexterity bonuses to theif skills; And you gain a +10 to Move Silently and Climbing, and a +5 to Pick Pockets and Hide In Shadows.
Any other Armor types (except Elfin Chain which also has penalties and no Dex bonuses) prevent you from using any Theif skills (and Mo can't use them anyway as an Illusionist/Theif).
Rod
mo .....
--
mo .....
Rodney E. Barnes
Your Gnome can move 9 Hexes if not doing anything else in the round. Can't
move BEFORE casting a spell. Can move only 2 Hexes BEFORE a melee attack
unless you charge. He can move 4 Hexes AFTER casting a Spell, Melee attack,
or Missile attack (subtracting any move you did before your attack).
/Mo Mode Off
I just want to clarify how I am using encumbrance. The penalties associated
with the wearing of armor and encumbrance apply to TRAVEL calculations, not
to Combat Movement. This DM assumes the characters throw off their
backpacks as a free action at the start of any combat encounter and fight
unencumbered if what they are carrying would encumber the character. The
adrenalin of combat overcomes any encumbrance their armor normally gives
them.
Non-combat movement is fixed at 12" or 120' per round for Human, Elf,
Half-Elf, Half-Ork; 9" or 90' per round for Dwarf, Gnome, and Halfling.
Monks and other characters may have a different number. Half that number is
used in combat. Each Hex is 5' on our hex map. This translates to 12 Hexes
of full combat movement for Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, and Half-Orks. 9
Hexes of full combat movement for Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings. Movement
is at half if you perform any action (round down) other than moving.
One thing that is different about 1st Edition over other editions is you
normally move your movement AFTER your action. Spell Casters and Missile
users can only move after their action. Melee attackers (not charging) can
move 2 hexes before an attack, and the remainder of their movement after,
but can't disengage unless Fleeing.
Actions are resolved, per side, in order of: Move (if that is all you are
doing), Magic, Missile, Melee, Thief Skills, Other. And Multi-attacks
(including those of Monsters!) are done one at a time. Initiative winner
does one, then looser does one, then winner does second, then looser does
second, and so on, until all attacks are done.
We could eliminate a lot of the complexity if we make a house rule; no ties
on initiative. It's a simple matter of re-rolling...
Rod
Doug
Actions are resolved, per side, in order of: Move (if that is all you are
doing), Magic, Missile, Melee, Thief Skills, Other. And Multi-attacks
(including those of Monsters!) are done one at a time. Initiative winner
does one, then looser does one, then winner does second, then looser does
second, and so on, until all attacks are done.
We could eliminate a lot of the complexity if we make a house rule; no ties
on initiative. It's a simple matter of re-rolling...
Doug replies:
This sucks! Is it too late to switch over to 2nd Edition. Magic is handled before melee, so fighter types get screwed.
And roll with a d30, and reroll.
Doug
D. Stephen Raymond
>
> Melee attackers (not charging) can
> move 2 hexes before an attack, and the remainder of their movement after,
> but can't disengage unless Fleeing.
>
(done in place of movement)? Does it include moving up to 1.5 times your
normal full move, and no other movement? What benefits does it give you
(other than being able to move more than two hexes before a melee
attack)? What penalties are involved (to AC, to number of attacks, to
the condition the attacker is left in by the charge)?
I don't have a problem with re-rolling initiative ties, rather than the
simultaneous resolution we did last Friday.
Stephe
Stephe
Rodney E. Barnes
Doug, we could move to the second edition combat system utilizing a d30, and still keep playing 1st Edition. I don't want to switch the campaign to 2nd Edition, but I would have no problem with "upgrading" to 2nd Edition PHB Chapter 9's combat system, as it is fully compatible with our current 1st edition characters. Straight unmodified d30 to determine which side wins initiative, re-roll ties. Then speed factor for weapon/spell segment for spell determines whom goes first on each side (using weapon speed factor for missile weapons from 2e). Spell Casters still can't move and cast. Missile and Melee users can make a single attack if they move 1/2, Multi-attacks if they don't move. Turn Undead can move half. Devices and unarmed strikers still have segment/speed 0 (as they do in 2e as well). Etc. Combats against more "high drama" opponents, we could then use individual initiative for combat. Movement rates would be unchanged, 12 full, 6 half (for human sized), 9 full, 4 half (for gnome sized). I think it would be Good. And be less confusing for MO (and probably faster).
Stephe, Charging is a full round action where you move up to 1.5x your combat move and attack at the end of it. You can do this once every 10 rounds. You gain a +2 to hit. You loose your bonus to AC for Dex. Initiative, regardless of whether your side won or not, goes to whomever has the longer weapon, the charger or the charge-ie. The charge-ie can set to receive a charge if they haven't gone yet and they have a spear or pole arm that can be set. The charge-ie can still attack normally if not set and hasn't gone yet. A set charge-ie does double damage if he hits the charger. This did not change in 2e, except 2e also penalized the charger with a -1 AC penalty. Lances do double damage when used in a charge. The movement does not need to be in a straight line, but every hex in the move must be toward the target and must be a minimum of 10' or further away from where you start. Closer than 3 hexes you can't charge.
Rod
Doug
Get back to me soon,
Doug
--
Rodney E. Barnes
I have no problem using Standard Initiative, adding the house rule of re-rolling ties (lowest wins in Standard Initiative). Speed Factor, Spell Segment, and the like are on table 56, and are Optional Modifiers for the two optional systems of Group Initiative and Individual Initiative. They do not modify Standard Initiative. Using a d30 would screw up the Standard Modifiers as they are on table 55. The range is to wide to make the modifiers for things like Slowed and so forth to be critical. If we go with a d30, then those modifiers need to be modified to match the math; each pip on a d10 is worth 10%. Each pip on a d30 is 3.33%. So a +2 on a d10 is 20%. So on a d30 that would be +6, or triple the modifier for the d10. So the Standard Modifier table would be this:
Hasted -6
Slowed +6
On Higher Ground -3
Set to receive a charge -6
Wading or Slippery footing +6
Wading in Deep Water +12
Foreign Environment +18
Hindered (Tangled, Climbing, Held) +9
Waiting +3
This would allow us to use the d30 instead of the d10, and still have the correct modifiers when they do apply (which as you can see from the list, is not very often).
Weapon vs. Armor type is different in 2e combat. It is an Optional system, and it's based not upon the individual weapon, but on the weapon type. Slashing, Bludgeoning, Piercing. And not against the different AC's, but against the specific Armors Types. Banned, Brigandine, Chain or Bronze Plate, Field Plate, Full Plate, Leather or Padded, Plate Mail, Ring, Scale, Splint, and Studded Leather. I think it would be best to just not use it. It only applies to enemies wearing armor, MOST monsters do not utilize armor for their AC. This is true of 1e's system as well. I know that would take away some of Doug's weapon bonuses for his 2-handed sword, but it would also eliminate the penalties as well. It evens the playing field for everyone. Plus, I don't want to tell you the AC of your targets. That's not cool.
I will not be using Firing into Melee for missile Specialists, they know now to target a target who is in melee. Character abilities are still derived from 1E, not 2E. So Weapon Specialization is from UA, not 2E. THAC0 and Saves are the same. Weapon damage is the same. They only thing different as far as THAC0 goes is that a natural 1 is always a miss, and a natural 20 is always a hit.
If you feel the need, anyone can change out their mundane weapons/armor they purchased for different weapons/armor at cost now, since we are changing combat systems. Same if you need to change proficiencies.
Rod
Doug
Banded armor, not Banned.
I will not be attending Friday's game.
Doug
--
Rodney E. Barnes
you all next friday on my day off.
Rod
D. Stephen Raymond
10th). I should be available for September 17th and 24th.
Stephe
Rodney E. Barnes
Oh, that's right. I don't want to have anyone re-do their character sheets. Heaven forbid. We've had enough of that already. So; Just Standard Initiative using a d30 and Combat procedures from 2e. Character, weapon, and armor stats are from 1st edition. That is to say, weapon vs. AC and everything else from 1st edition so we don't have to change anyone's character sheets and keeps us from having to flip through a bunch of books. Does that work better for everyone? I would hate to have anyone re-do the character sheets. I'm still not going to tell you what the AC of your targets are unless they are mooks; instead you should make yourself a little chart like Doug did for each of his weapons. If fact, I think there is a little chart in the detailed character sheet for just that?
I'll see you all on the 3rd.
Rod
Rodney E. Barnes
even though Stephe can't make it, as I hope that will give Mike enough time
to have his character ready and be able to join us. The next game after
that will be the 17th. Mike???
Rod