Something to think about

[Ken]

As many of you know, Emergent Village is criticized by some for rethinking historical theological ideas regarding heaven and hell. I have been posting on this topic for a while now, and thought I'd open it up to the group for discussion. I think it is worth investigating whether traditional interpretations of the Bible are actually accurate.

"I'd like to suggest Jesus didn't come here to tell us how to get to heaven after we die, primarily. He came to talk to us about how the Kingdom of Heaven can happen here on earth while we're here, and when our children and our grandchildren are here.". Brian McLaren

"Does the question about saving one's soul appear in the Old Testament at all? Aren't righteousness and the Kingdom of God on earth the focus of everything, and isn't it true that Romans 3:2 is not an individualistic doctrine of salvation, but the culmination of the view that God alone is righteous? It is not with the beyond that we are concerned, but with this world as created and preserved, subjected to laws, reconciled, and restored." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

"For I wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race..." Romans 9:3

What is the point of following Jesus, if not escaping hell and getting to heaven? I know you have some ideas!

REMINDER, our next Cohort Discussion is Monday, July 21, at Backspace Coffee, 115 NW 5th Ave., 97209


Ken
blog.emergingworshiper.org

[melissa sillitoe]

I follow Jesus in order to bring about God's kingdom on earth. And now having said something so presumptuous, let's just say I try to be nice to the other kids and clean up my messes. I've never believed in a literal heaven and hell. I think that we misunderstood Christ and, like McLaren says, he wanted us to get our act together, overcome our pettiness, and realize that God provided all we needed, and it's right here. And here's another interesting thought that I can only share here...what if "hell fires" were actually global warming? What if prophets and Christ were warning us about what our misguided greed could bring about? Am I heretical enough yet? ;) Well, it's been hot downtown, and I keep thinking, it's hotter than hell. I won't be able to attend on Monday since I'm working. Thanks for keeping the discussion going, Ken.

Melissa

[Pam Hogeweide]

hey all
i'm just back from a two week family vacation.

i have blogged about The Hell Thing (as I call it) several times. Here's a LINK if you'd like to peruse some studies I've done it and the discussions that erupted on my blog when I posted about it.  Food for thought if you are someone who feels uneasy about the doctrine of eternal damnation as I have for the past two decades......Pam

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Ken <k...@emergingworshiper.org> wrote:

[Ken Bussell]

Pam, I just finished reading your "Hell Thing". Really great writing and honest exploration of this topic.

I have had a conversation many times with friends where I show them a paper plate and a sharpie marker and say "Imagine this is a pie chart that represents all the people who have ever lived and will ever live. Now take this marker and draw the piece of pie that represents who is saved from hell. How big is the slice?" It makes people very uncomfortable. Most refuse to do it.

Sometimes I think the sovereignty vs. freewill discussions are missing the point. Regardless of the mechanisms at work within it, we exist in the system that God created. What one believes about the ultimate outcome of that system says a lot about what one believes about the God who created it.

Erwin McManus had a great message on hell a couple years ago during his Life's Toughest Questions series. He talked a lot about suffering and evil in the world, and told a short story of a young woman who had suffered ritual sexual abuse and who had questions about why God would allow that to happen to her. He didn't really answer that question, except to say that there will come a day when God will put an end to evil and suffering.  

I struggle with Christian Universalism for the same reasons that you mentioned in your posts (rapists, sadaam, etc.). But I am one who hopes and prays that God's mercy will triumph for ALL, even if I am not absolutely sure that it will.

I wrote a few posts on my blog about Joel Osteen. Many evangelicals accused him of being soft on hell when he told Larry King that he didn't know if Jews and Muslims were going to hell. He refused to stand in judgement of them and said that it was up to God and not him. He's certainly not my favorite preacher, but I strongly supported Osteen on that. It upsets me to see the McArthur and Driscoll types bashing him and so many others for trying to have a loving and hopeful approach toward the issue.  

You can read my posts at http://blog.emergingworshiper.org/search?q=hell

--
Ken
www.emergingworshiper.org

[Ken Bussell]

Melissa, YES YES YES! Your Kingdom come on earth, Your will be done on earth. There is a now infamous "Way of the Master" interview with Doug Pagitt where the guy really tries to nail Doug on hell being a literal "place". But Doug defends pretty well. Much of that kind of hell thinking is rooted in greek philosophy. But then again, much of Paul's writing is heavily influenced in the same way... but I digress. I will get the mp3 of the interview uploaded to our GoogleGroup site if I can. Be looking for it.

Global warming? I need to think about that one. You may have something there! Jesus speaks of hell as gehenna, which was a burning trash heap outside of Jerusalem. So the environmental idea might not be so heretical. Does anyone else have any thoughts on hell being linked to environmental issues?

--
Ken
www.emergingworshiper.org

[Jen Lemen]

is there anyway to get off this list??
i hit unsubscribe and am still here.
help!
god talk in my inbox will kill me!

thanks,
jen lemen

--
www.jenlemen.com
art, soul and stories

www.shinyblueyou.com
stories to change our world
deadline to submit June 1, 2008

[Ken Bussell]

I will try to unsubscribe you. Hopefully that will work.

--
Ken
www.emergingworshiper.org

[Ken Bussell]

OK, the Doug Pagitt interview is uploaded on the group page HERE. Have a listen.

--
Ken
www.emergingworshiper.org

[chris leonardo]

perhaps a forum of some sorts would be a better context for conversations like this?  My inbox is filling up too.

chris

chris leonardo

associate pastor-the evergreen community

971-506-9429

ch...@evergreenlife.org

[Pam Hogeweide]

hey ken
thanks for taking time to read my hell thing writings. i can't hang online today with so much great weather and catch-up-post-vacation stuff to conquer but i will read your blog posts when i can.  great illustration, btw, the whole paper plate sharpie pie chart thing. as my 11 year old son puts it:  Why would God create billions of people just to let them go to hell forever a part from him?

pam

[Ken Bussell]

Hey Chris, you can set your email preferences to "digest" email, which will send only 1 email a day. This is a good option for anyone who wants to stay connected to the conversation, but who wants to limit the amount of individual messages. I had to do this as a member of the EV Cohort Leaders GoogleGroup. I was getting 10-15 emails a day sometimes from that group, but the discussions are great!

I will go ahead and set your email preferences to "digest".

--
Ken
www.emergingworshiper.org

[Jon Hunnell]

I am really bummed I missed you all last night at the coffee shop. I love the question posed here by Ken and it would be so beneficial to continue exploring our understanding of the implications of the NT teaching on Hell. This topic seems to plague (in a good way if plaguing can be considered good) my conversations as well as lessons and small group discussions. What a great thing to wrestle with even if we only walk away with a gray point of view. There seems to be only black and white opinions when it comes to this topic, which scares the hell out of me (well in all fairness hell was scared out of my theology years ago). Hope to join you at the next meeting.

Jon Hunnell

[Bill Colburn]

Wish I had been free to join in the "hell of a conversation".  I've blogged recently on the topic - if anyone is interested:  http://seguewm.blogspot.com/2008/07/hell-knows-no-fury.html   Bill Colburn Cary, NC