Mating between single cell organisms?

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Evgenii Rudyni

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Feb 19, 2011, 11:08:07 AM2/19/11
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Dear Natalie and Dick,

After some break, I have started reading your draft again. I see that
the first chapter in the book has considerably grown. I like it, it is a
nice and gentle introduction in the subject. A small question. When you
consider mating on a page 9, does this concern single cell organism? If
yes, could you please refer to some popular text about this?

Best wishes,

Evgenii

P.S. By the way, I have recently seen a paper (probably you know it)

Epigenetic learning in non-neural organisms
SIMONA GINSBURG, and EVA JABLONKA
J. Biosci. 33(4), October 2008

where the authors discuss how one cell can learn.

Dr. Richard Gordon

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Feb 19, 2011, 1:19:07 PM2/19/11
to embryo...@googlegroups.com, Evgenii Rudnyi, Natalie K. Gordon, B.Sc., Ph.D.
Saturday, February 19, 2011 12:25 PM, Panacea, Florida
Dear Evgenii,
Almost all one cell organisms mate in one fashion or another. We’ll give more examples.

I read (skeptically) reports of learning in Paramecium in the 1960s. Will try to catch up with that literature. I speculated on the mechanism of brain memory as a form of cell differentiation, and on the relationship between sleep and memory, and coined the word “memorons”, in:

Gordon, R. (1999). The Hierarchical Genome and Differentiation Waves: Novel Unification of Development, Genetics and Evolution. Singapore & London, World Scientific & Imperial College Press http://www.worldscibooks.com/lifesci/2755.html.

You might want to look at:

Jablonka, E. (2005). Evolution in Four Dimensions. Massachusetts, MIT Press.

You will note the unexplained phenomenon of “induction” quite a few times in:

Ginsburg, S. & E. Jablonka (2009). Epigenetic learning in non-neural organisms. J. Biosci. 34(4), 633-646.

That is what we are explaining in:

Natalie K. Gordon & Richard Gordon (2011). Embryogenesis Explained [in preparation]. Singapore: World Scientific Publishing Company.

By the definition of Ginsburg & Jablonka (2009), cell differentiation in embryos is “epigenetic learning”. I find that a bit of a stretch, suggesting that an embryo “learns” to be an adult.
Thanks!
Yours, -Dick

Richard (Dick) Gordon
Visitor, Camera Culture, Media Lab, MIT
Visitor, BioMicroFluidics Laboratory, Department of Mechanical & Aerospace Engineering, Old Dominion University
gor...@cc.umanitoba.ca
Blog: http://www.science20.com/cosmic_embryo

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Evgenii Rudnyi

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Feb 19, 2011, 3:55:10 PM2/19/11
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Well, the use of words from one area in some other could be a bit
confusing. For example Ginsburg&Jablonka employ "self-sustaining
feedback loops" and "autocatalysis" instead of perception. Yet,
learning, I agree, sounds a bit odd.

I have searched a bit for mating in Google and have found

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_conjugation

Is this what you mean?

I have some other question. Do you know what a multicellular organism
has the minimal number of cells? And how many cells then it has? Say do
there exist two-cell organisms, three-cell organisms or there is some
gap in number of cells between single-cell organism and multicellular
organism.

Evgenii


Am 19.02.2011 19:19, schrieb Dr. Richard Gordon:
> Saturday, February 19, 2011 12:25 PM, Panacea, Florida
> Dear Evgenii,

> Almost all one cell organisms mate in one fashion or another. We�ll give more examples.
>
> I read (skeptically) reports of learning in Paramecium in the 1960s. Will try to catch up with that literature. I speculated on the mechanism of brain memory as a form of cell differentiation, and on the relationship between sleep and memory, and coined the word �memorons�, in:
>
> Gordon, R. (1999). The Hierarchical Genome and Differentiation Waves: Novel Unification of Development, Genetics and Evolution. Singapore& London, World Scientific& Imperial College Press http://www.worldscibooks.com/lifesci/2755.html.


>
> You might want to look at:
>
> Jablonka, E. (2005). Evolution in Four Dimensions. Massachusetts, MIT Press.
>

> You will note the unexplained phenomenon of �induction� quite a few times in:
>
> Ginsburg, S.& E. Jablonka (2009). Epigenetic learning in non-neural organisms. J. Biosci. 34(4), 633-646.


>
> That is what we are explaining in:
>

> Natalie K. Gordon& Richard Gordon (2011). Embryogenesis Explained [in preparation]. Singapore: World Scientific Publishing Company.
>
> By the definition of Ginsburg& Jablonka (2009), cell differentiation in embryos is �epigenetic learning�. I find that a bit of a stretch, suggesting that an embryo �learns� to be an adult.


> Thanks!
> Yours, -Dick
>
> Richard (Dick) Gordon
> Visitor, Camera Culture, Media Lab, MIT

> Visitor, BioMicroFluidics Laboratory, Department of Mechanical& Aerospace Engineering, Old Dominion University

Dr. Richard Gordon

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Feb 19, 2011, 8:26:31 PM2/19/11
to embryo...@googlegroups.com, Evgenii Rudnyi, Natalie K. Gordon, B.Sc., Ph.D.
Saturday, February 19, 2011 7:57 PM, Panacea, Florida
Dear Evgenii,
Yes, describing cell differentiation as learning “sounds a bit odd”, even though some sort of cell memory is involved. I think the difference is that the number of different kinds of cells in a given species is an integer of some particular maximal value due to the unknown mechanism that distinguishes one cell type from another. We’ll present our model for this as the “nuclear state splitter” in a forthcoming lecture. The general impression that I have of learning is that: 1) it can be different in each individual organism; 2) what is learned is not “anticipated”. Nevertheless, there may be similarities between learning an differentiation, as discussed in “Proposition 202: learning is primarily a matter of extension of the differentiation tree beyond its inherited components” in:

Gordon, R. (1999). The Hierarchical Genome and Differentiation Waves: Novel Unification of Development, Genetics and Evolution. Singapore & London, World Scientific & Imperial College Press http://www.worldscibooks.com/lifesci/2755.html.

Yes, bacterial conjugation is bacterial sex. Natalie mentioned it.

Now, your question of # of cells in an individual depends on how you want to define “individual”. Many cyanobacteria form straight or branching clonal filaments, whose size can be n = 1,..., with the maximum determined mostly by mechanical breaking, as by turbulence. Some of these filaments are motile, which means all cells move in the same direction, so they are indeed coordinated the way w would expect of an “individual”. One nice book that goes through organisms of increasing complexity in terms of # of cell types (not # of cells, but somewhat correlated) is:

Bonner, J.T. (1988). The Evolution of Complexity by Means of Natural Selection. Princeton, Princeton University Press.

A problem of this approach is that there is no standard for the definition of a cell type.
Thanks.
Yours, -Dick

Richard (Dick) Gordon
Visitor, Camera Culture, Media Lab, MIT

Visitor, BioMicroFluidics Laboratory, Department of Mechanical & Aerospace Engineering, Old Dominion University
gor...@cc.umanitoba.ca
Blog: http://www.science20.com/cosmic_embryo

On 2011-02-19, at 3:55 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:

> Well, the use of words from one area in some other could be a bit confusing. For example Ginsburg&Jablonka employ "self-sustaining feedback loops" and "autocatalysis" instead of perception. Yet, learning, I agree, sounds a bit odd.
>
> I have searched a bit for mating in Google and have found
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_conjugation
>
> Is this what you mean?
>
> I have some other question. Do you know what a multicellular organism has the minimal number of cells? And how many cells then it has? Say do there exist two-cell organisms, three-cell organisms or there is some gap in number of cells between single-cell organism and multicellular organism.
>
> Evgenii
>
>
>
>
> Am 19.02.2011 19:19, schrieb Dr. Richard Gordon:
>> Saturday, February 19, 2011 12:25 PM, Panacea, Florida
>> Dear Evgenii,

>> Almost all one cell organisms mate in one fashion or another. We’ll give more examples.
>>
>> I read (skeptically) reports of learning in Paramecium in the 1960s. Will try to catch up with that literature. I speculated on the mechanism of brain memory as a form of cell differentiation, and on the relationship between sleep and memory, and coined the word “memorons”, in:


>>
>> Gordon, R. (1999). The Hierarchical Genome and Differentiation Waves: Novel Unification of Development, Genetics and Evolution. Singapore& London, World Scientific& Imperial College Press http://www.worldscibooks.com/lifesci/2755.html.
>>
>> You might want to look at:
>>
>> Jablonka, E. (2005). Evolution in Four Dimensions. Massachusetts, MIT Press.
>>

>> You will note the unexplained phenomenon of “induction” quite a few times in:


>>
>> Ginsburg, S.& E. Jablonka (2009). Epigenetic learning in non-neural organisms. J. Biosci. 34(4), 633-646.
>>
>> That is what we are explaining in:
>>
>> Natalie K. Gordon& Richard Gordon (2011). Embryogenesis Explained [in preparation]. Singapore: World Scientific Publishing Company.
>>

>> By the definition of Ginsburg& Jablonka (2009), cell differentiation in embryos is “epigenetic learning”. I find that a bit of a stretch, suggesting that an embryo “learns” to be an adult.

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