Why are the shunts on SBMS on the positive side?

[Chris Sailor]

Hi Dacian,

could you please explain why you choose to use the shunts on the positive side while 99% uses it on the negative side? whats the advantages of having it on positive side?

on negative side shunts could have double usage for SBMS and eg Victron Batterymonitor BMV710-712 or smartshunt into monitoring system.

Thank you.

[Dacian Todea (electrodacus)]

I want the negative to be common so no voltage drop on the negative due to shunt or anything similar.

The reason most designers use the shunt on negative is because it is simpler and less expensive to implement.

[Bob Hughes]

I am a recently retired Power System Protection engineer.  This means, for good or bad, I'm highly opinionated on anything to do with overcurrent protection. I ultimately chose the SBMS0 for my 4S, 12V RV system. But I was initially appalled when I saw the shunt on the positive battery terminal with the requirement to NOT put a fuse between the battery and the shunt. As an opinionated power system protection engineer, I want to see solid dielectric insulation (not air insulation) between the battery and the fuse. Unfortunately, a shunt is power resistor that needs ventilation for cooling. This effectively precludes sealing up the shunt so that it has no exposed metal.

After seeing the cost of the REC BMS (and other competitor BMSs that can control a contactor), I got over it and figured out another way to address these concerns. The system I'm building is comprised of the SMBS0, Victron MPII 3000, two EV200 contactors,  four EVE LF304, and a Class T fuse. I'm bench testing this now. More on this later in another post.

[Dacian Todea (electrodacus)]

Bob,

If shunts where on the negative side you could still not have a fuse between battery and shunts.

In case fuse melts due to high current trough the shunts the energy stored in all the cables (inductors) will either increase or decrease the voltage at the shunts depending on the current direction before the fault and since the SBMS0 is only powered by the cell sense wires it can not protect the internal electronics from this energy pulse and that protection will need to be outside next to the shunt's adding complexity.

Also the shunts either on negative or positive will need to be close to the battery and so the short 10 to 20cm of wire between the battery positive and shunt will need no special protection as it is not much different from the connections between cells.

You can design the shunt so that it can be enclosed in a box that means you select the shunt so that max power dissipation is below 3 to 5W depending on box.

Not sure what you want to use the contractors for ?

The Victron inverter charger has separate ON/OFF controls for charge and discharge and that can be handled by SBMS0 and in the unlikely case something fails unsafe a simple circuit breaker with a trip coil can be controlled with EXT IO6 set as type 5 and also acts as over current protection at the same time and if it is a dual circuit breaker you have the separate pats for loads and charge sources.

I will soon have a new DEX designed that will multiply the available EXT IOx and will have a n output dedicated to EXT IO6 set as type 5 to trip a circuit breaker in case of fault as secondary protection.

3000W is a bit much for just 4x EVE cells. I have a 3500W inverter than normally will not see more than 2500W but is on 24V 8s2p so a total of 16 EVE cells (the 280Ah version).

3000W from 12V is 250A so normally a 500A shunt will be fine if you are not fully enclosing that in a sealed box as with 50mV / 500A = 0.1mOhm you will have 6.25W a bit much in a sealed box.

But if say your setup was limited at 2000W max then is 166A * 166A * 0.0001Ohms = 2.76W and that is not a problem to dissipate in a sealed box.

[Bob Hughes]

Dacian,

Thanks for your quick response on this. I am really enjoying working with your SBMS0.

A little more background:

I am building this system for a travel trailer that I sleep in when camping. This affects my perception of what's safe enough versus batteries in a detached shack/garage that is not a living space.

Also, I don't have solar. I always camp in the shadiest place I can find. Folks who put solar on their RVs start camping in sunny spots. Then they get hot and want to run the AC. Then they need more solar, and more batteries to run their AC. I'll stay in the shade. I charge the battery when I have access to mains power, off the alternator when I'm driving, or with an AC generator on long trips.

 If shunts where on the negative side, I would connect the fuse to the positive terminal. This is compliant with the ABYC in that any positive conductor connected to a battery bank requires overcurrent protection within 7 inches of the batteries positive terminal. It's pretty hard to follow this requirement with a shunt between the battery positive and the fuse.

Source:  https://marinehowto.com/battery-banks-over-current-protection/

There are no relevant IEEE or IEC standards for RVs, so I look to ABYC (marine) standards as "best known practice". 

Not sure what you want to use the contractors for ?

1) Battery disconnect means - One of the EV200 contactors isolates the battery from everything. It is operated by the SBMS Type 5 output. This circuit includes a "seal-in relay". The SBMS can disconnect the battery on a Type 5 alarm, but the seal-in relay makes is so I have to manually reconnect the battery (by pressing a pre-charge button followed by a seal-in relay close). I do NOT want any piece of automation reconnecting the battery after it has disconnected. (Protection engineer attitudes here!). I will also have an E-Stop switch in this circuit. This is a big red button that when pressed opens the contactors and shuts down the Victron. You press it when awoken in the middle of the night by the smoke alarm, only to find smoke pouring out of the battery compartment. I don't expect to ever use this feature.

Here is a reference on seal-in relays as they apply to power system protection.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-seal-in-relay-in-overcurrent-protection#:~:text=A%20seal%2Din%20relay%20is,trip%20signal%20from%20an%20upst

The battery disconnect is also handy when I'm on an extended stay at some place with shore power. I can run all my DC loads off the Victron charger, without have the battery constantly on float charge. I'd rather disconnect the battery in this situation.

2) Load disconnect means - Most of my loads are 12VDC. Turning off the Victron inverter doesn't do much because I only run the microwave, coffee maker and wife's hairdryer off AC. Everything else is DC.

I looked at shunt-trip circuit breakers. But I could not find any that I liked. Firstly, I try to only buy safety products from North American or European vendors (Eaton, ABB, Siemens, Schneider, Victron, Tyco Electronics, etc.) I do not buy safety products, such as fuses or circuit breakers, from companies located elsewhere.

Then I found these used TE contactors for EVs for $12.50 each, normally $160+ from Mouser. They are purpose built for switching large battery banks. I bought three (two plus a spare). They even have a built-in economizer circuit and flyback diode.

https://batteryhookup.com/products/te-connectivity-ev200aaana-500a-0-900vdc

The Class-T fuse will be for overcurrent protection. The EV200s for load disconnect. That having been said, these EV200s can interrupt 5000A (twice) on a 24 VDC system. That's pretty impressive for a switch (not a breaker/fuse).

Lastly on the subject of electrical protection, I would like to point out this statement by Victron (bold emphasis mine):

"Worded simply: a battery must be intrinsically safe, and include its own large disconnect mechanism such as a contactor. Only relying on digital signals telling our inverters and chargers to stop charging is not sufficient."

Source: https://www.victronenergy.com/live/battery_compatibility:start

I am in agreement with Victron on this point. Are you disagreeing with Victron on this matter?

3000W is a bit much for just 4x EVE cells

I agree. The MPII 3000 is rated for 3000 VA and 2500 W continuous. But your point is still valid. The 2000 would be sufficient for my needs today. The largest load I have presently is an 1800W hairdryer that my wife runs for 10-15 minutes every couple of days.

I was watching a Will Prouse video where he lamented all the money he wasted over the years buying successively larger  inverters. He would always buy the smallest inverter that met his immediate needs, only to buy a larger model next time. Given the small price differential between the two, I decided to buy the 3000. Buy once, cry once.

Bob

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 1:25:04 PM UTC-8 electr...@gmail.com wrote:

Bob,

If shunts where on the negative side you could still not have a fuse between battery and shunts.

In case fuse melts due to high current trough the shunts the energy stored in all the cables (inductors) will either increase or decrease the voltage at the shunts depending on the current direction before the fault and since the SBMS0 is only powered by the cell sense wires it can not protect the internal electronics from this energy pulse and that protection will need to be outside next to the shunt's adding complexity.

Also the shunts either on negative or positive will need to be close to the battery and so the short 10 to 20cm of wire between the battery positive and shunt will need no special protection as it is not much different from the connections between cells.

You can design the shunt so that it can be enclosed in a box that means you select the shunt so that max power dissipation is below 3 to 5W depending on box.

Not sure what you want to use the contractors for ?

The Victron inverter charger has separate ON/OFF controls for charge and discharge and that can be handled by SBMS0 and in the unlikely case something fails unsafe a simple circuit breaker with a trip coil can be controlled with EXT IO6 set as type 5 and also acts as over current protection at the same time and if it is a dual circuit breaker you have the separate pats for loads and charge sources.

I will soon have a new DEX designed that will multiply the available EXT IOx and will have a n output dedicated to EXT IO6 set as type 5 to trip a circuit breaker in case of fault as secondary protection.

3000W is a bit much for just 4x EVE cells. I have a 3500W inverter than normally will not see more than 2500W but is on 24V 8s2p so a total of 16 EVE cells (the 280Ah version).

3000W from 12V is 250A so normally a 500A shunt will be fine if you are not fully enclosing that in a sealed box as with 50mV / 500A = 0.1mOhm you will have 6.25W a bit much in a sealed box.

But if say your setup was limited at 2000W max then is 166A * 166A * 0.0001Ohms = 2.76W and that is not a problem to dissipate in a sealed box.

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 1:28:14 PM UTC-6 b734h...@gmail.com wrote:

I am a recently retired Power System Protection engineer.  This means, for good or bad, I'm highly opinionated on anything to do with overcurrent protection. I ultimately chose the SBMS0 for my 4S, 12V RV system. But I was initially appalled when I saw the shunt on the positive battery terminal with the requirement to NOT put a fuse between the battery and the shunt. As an opinionated power system protection engineer, I want to see solid dielectric insulation (not air insulation) between the battery and the fuse. Unfortunately, a shunt is power resistor that needs ventilation for cooling. This effectively precludes sealing up the shunt so that it has no exposed metal.

After seeing the cost of the REC BMS (and other competitor BMSs that can control a contactor), I got over it and figured out another way to address these concerns. The system I'm building is comprised of the SMBS0, Victron MPII 3000, two EV200 contactors,  four EVE LF304, and a Class T fuse. I'm bench testing this now. More on this later in another post.

[Dacian Todea (electrodacus)]

Bob,

My two batteries a 5kWh and 13kWh are inside the house. One is 1.2m away from me and the other maybe 4m away.

Energy cost for:

Solar PV $0.02/kWh

Grid at least $0.10/kWh

Car alternator about $1/kWh depending of fuel cost and similar with fuel generators.

7" is sufficient space to add a shunt and both the shunt and the fuse can be in the same box.

In fact a large box containing the two shunt and either two fuses or better a single dual circuit breaker with shunt trip (controlled by type 5) is the best protection.

1) Yes not re-connecting is a good idea that is why I normally recommend a circuit breaker with shunt trip coil as that requires manual intervention to reconnect.

Battery will not be on float if inverter is correctly connected to the SBMS0 EXT IO3 and IO4 to control both Load and charge https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Manual-Connecting-other-lithium-battery-systems-to-Multis-and-Quattros-EN.pdf

The SBMS0 can be setup to only charge the battery full once a day and for the rest of the day keep the battery to a lower level say 87 to 90% so at no point it will be float charged.

2) I have the same setup where I use 24VDC for everything in the house except for large power items like mostly the electric cooking.

The problem with contractors is that they always use energy and the few watt add up.

 I'm not in disagreement with Victron and is the reason type 5 is available to disconnect physically the loads and separately charge sources from the battery. So you need two separate contacts one for loads and one for charge sources since it will do nothing if you have solar or the battery to battery charger still powering your defective inverter.

But the SBMS will likely not be able to see an inverter fault unless there is some excessive current that affects the battery voltage or if it fails to stop charging. If some other defects create magic smoke in the inverter without affecting the battery voltage the SBMS will be unaware of that .

Yes getting the 3000VA inverter was not a bad idea even if just to keep the inverter run below 70% of his capabilities.

The thing I will most careful about is connections between cells and all other connections as a bad high resistance connection is not easily detectable and maybe once a year check that all connections are still good and low resistance.

[Chris Sailor]

thanks Dacian. well in mobile in RV and Boat you need a 2nd last resort fail safe beside the BMS and that will be putting a shunt into negative side and eg use a Victron BMV712 anyhow. SBMS would be on negative side we could use the shunt for both.

bob i highly suggest to use Victron BMV712 battery monitor additional. And yes thats means put a shunt to negative side too. use the midpoint measuring so the BMV can even dedect imbalances, its just cell 1+2 versus cell 3+4 but if you get a runner the BMV will dedect it. with the relais output of BMV you can steer your last resort disconnect contractor. Program BMV712 for LVC and HVC, you can also connect the SBMS with extio 5 in parallel to it so the that contactor is steered by SBMS or BMV712. Due to ISO norm in europe for vehicles/RV this is required and also ABYC is requiring that to have a last fail safe that doesn't depend on BMS.

You find another thread here with destroyed cells where its unclear if SBMS failed or how overcharge happened but the BMV712 would have protected you from that sceanrio and a potential fire burning your trailer down. I would also do that if its an offgrid install, yes BMV712 is expensive but new cells in best case are more expensive.

I also sleep ontop of my bank so just integrating that BMV712 too to sleep safer, even its a bigger operation to do due to my system design. The BMV712 can also communicate with VIctron  Cerbo or raspi with Venus OS, really worth havig some monitoring besides SOC.

Agree with Damian on 4x304AH are too less for a Multi 3000, you need 2p4S=4cellls more.

[Chris Sailor]

bob you can integrate your shunt into the battery housing=compression post. thats what i normally do by simply making the threaded rods longer and simply put a doubled front plate with 5cm inbetween. means take your front and rear plate the rods stick out 7cm of the front plate, then i mount a 2nd front plate with nuts as distant holder. inbetween goes the shunt and the main battery fuse. the case i build out of vynyl or PVC boards and top 1cm thick acylic plate to be able to view cells, obviously the part over fuse and shunt seperatly. simple and effectiv and you simply take out the whole unit if you need. with SMBS that has the advantage that you cannot damage SBMS when you disconnect your battery in take it out as its one unit even with SBMS connected.

[Chris Sailor]

Dacian,

you stated:

The SBMS0 can be setup to only charge the battery full once a day and for the rest of the day keep the battery to a lower level say 87 to 90% so at no point it will be float charged => how do i set that up like this? lower re-engage charge to 3,35V?

Keeping the standard values in Victron gear with default of SBMS you will never be in float or even absorption as the SBMS cuts off at around 3,55V (EOF is 3,53V)  which is 14.2V but Victron absorption is at 14,4V and re-engage at 3,4V. you can simply but that lower to 3,35 to have it staying on a lower level.

Dacian: Where do you get 300A curcuit breaker with a trip coil, having a Multi 3000 requires that minimum in 12V. i agree i don't like contrators too and was one of the reasons i chosen SBMS but one as last fail safe is required, sure the breaker with trip coil is the better solution but the max I found was 150A and in 12V like mosts RV and boats still are the 150A gets you nowhere as eg the windlass or inverter will trip it due to overload.

[Dacian Todea (electrodacus)]

To setup the 87 to 90% limit just go to Automation menu and then DMPPT Settings submenu and there set Max SOC to 90%. By default is set at 99% and in that case function is not enabled the charging will always be to 100% SOC. But any value below 99% will enable this limit with a 3% hysteresis.

See this as I tested a few of those circuit breakers with shunt trip one of them was rated 315A but there are even much larger ratings available  https://groups.google.com/g/electrodacus/c/CflxSzTsKaY/m/N4CVd6G_AQAJ

Many times you will need to specifically ask for a shunt trip and need to mention what voltage rating you need for the shunt trip as there are both multiple low voltage DC and higher voltage AC available thus they are sold separate.

[Bob Hughes]

Captain, Funny you should mention this.  I've had a "voltage relay" in my schematic from the beginning. It is very common, in my former line of work, to have a separate over/under voltage protective relay, as backup to the automated systems that are normally regulating the voltage. This protects the system, in the event that the voltage regulating equipment (inverter/charger) misoperates or the settings are wrong. I've been looking at the BMV712. It looks like a wonderful choice for a voltage relay. 

[Bob Hughes]

Captain, I have not finalized my battery housing yet, but I as working towards something similar in which I can remove the battery pack as a unit. The shunt and fuse are attached to the compression fixture. I am planning to have the SBMS mounted separately from the battery, so I that I can see the display and operate the keypad.  

[Bob Hughes]

Dacien,

I looked at the shunt trip breakers, but did not see anything that was acceptable to me. 

Reasons:

1) I will not buy electrical protection equipment from any company that is not based in North America or Europe. Why? I've worked in the electrical protection business (480v - 72 kV AC power generation, distribution, and industrial). Our customers would ask why we charge 2x - 5x times what the China companies ask. So we would buy a sample from one of these companies and test it's performance against their own published specs. They would fail.

In the case of DC breakers, it's easy to CLAIM that your breaker can interrupt at 20kA fault (because you copied the design of someone else who claims 20kA). But to test it requires spending some significant money at a high-current test lab, such as Kinectrics or PowerTech. Based on working with ABB, Schneider, Eaton, Siemens, etc, I trust them when they say their product can interrupt 20kA. I do not trust companies that I have not worked with (basically anything on AliExpress). In my specific case, I trust that the Eaton Bussman JJN fuse will interrupt 20kA DC, because it's in their published specification and I've worked with them enough to trust they actually tested this and have the manufacturing quality control to mass produce fuses that meet this specification. I do not have this trust with the AliExpress vendors.

2) Some of these shunt-trip breakers are molded-case circuit breakers. These are fine for stationary applications, but are very large once you get to 300A+. For my RV installation, I want something more compact.

3) I am building a 12V system. Most of the shunt trips I can find are only available at 24Vdc and above.

I am using a Class-T fuse for overcurrent and a Tyco Electronics EV200 for switching. I've measured the EV200 continuous coil load at 123 mA at 13.2V. The SMBS is another 50mA or so. The Victron MPII 3000/12 inverter standby current is 0.9A when in AES Modified Sine mode. I also have "always on" loads in my RV of about 0.7A (propane alarm, propane fridge electronics, 12V TV standby current, etc.)  In that context, I do not find the 123mA EV200 coil load to be unreasonable, especially considering the safety it provides. The EV200 coil is in series with the voltage relay (TBD - but might be BMV-712), the SMBS Type 5 output (via a SSR), the E-stop switch, and a seal-in relay (another SSR). If any one of these devices opens its contact, the EV200 coil current is stopped, and the seal-in circuit locks out the EV200 until it is manually reset. This is a fail-safe approach that is worth 123mA to me.

But if 123 mA really bothers you, one can get an EV200P with latching relays:

https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=showdoc&DocId=Catalog+Section%7F5-1773450-5_sec7_EV200P%7F0921%7Fpdf%7FEnglish%7FENG_CS_5-1773450-5_sec7_EV200P_0921.pdf%7F3-1618394-1

[Chris R8]

My problems with mechanical relays is that they are notorious unreliable besides using current constantly that adds up.

The main reason i got ElectrodacusBMS. The remote functions of a multiplus or sn MPPT is tested in Victrons R&D lab and quality control. The relay if you eg get a blue systems too but in your system??? Blue system states 300cycles but what is a cycle for sn emergency relay thats always on???

My experience from 35 years competition car stereo and bluewater cruising sailboats is they cause more harm then they are useful, cost hell of a money and are the weak point in perfectly installed system.

Breaker with a trip coil sounds like the perfect solution for that scenario.

@bob: well for a lot current stuff need to simply be beefy to hold up so you won't find any smaller stuff that works with 300 or 400A.

My system is designed for 500A (inverter x1.41 =700a) continuous and simply everything is beefy, silver plate cooper wherever possible and battery busbars are 60x10=600sqmm aluminum as i simply couldn't get tinned copper delivered in the size i would need..
I am using NH fuses, NH3 630A main and 5xNH2 200A (2xMulti each 2 NH 200A) and 200A main house another NH2 250A chargebus=PV. Advantage of NH compared to class T they are als disconnect switch as you simply pull the fuse even under full load. Save a lot voltage drop and money...

[Bob Hughes]

kampfsc,

Those NH fuses look impressive. I'm glad to see they are made by reputable companies such as Siemens, Mersen, Bussman, etc. You have some very impressive current magnitudes in this system.

I'm not using a relay from Blue Sea. So I'm a little confused by that reference. I am using the Tyco Electronics EV200 contactor, designed specifically for electric vehicle battery applications.
My wimpy little 13V 304ah battery should be no problem for this 500A 900VDC contactor. I am confident they will work well, but if I'm wrong, that's part of the learning experience.

The EV200 product platform is also the basis for their Military Aerospace MP200,  Aerospace Commercial CAP200 series products.
If you look at these in the KILOVAC High Voltage Relays and Contactors catalog, you can see that they are the same basic device with the same performance specifications.

https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=5-1773450-5_Section7&DocType=CS&DocLang=EN

Getting a part like this approved for military and aerospace require passing vigorous design and manufacturing quality audits.
This is the exact opposite of a breaker/fuse/relay/contactor designed by folks who just copy other peoples products without understanding the physics of how they work.

As I mentioned earlier, I am a retired Power Systems Protection Engineer, adapting what I believe are best known practices from the AC polyphase 480V - 70kV world.

Obviously, not everything applies technically or economically between these two diverse application spaces. One practice protection engineers always want to see is a physical disconnect controlled by the protection device. 
A fuse qualifies for overcurrent protection. But a fuse cannot provide over/under voltage protection or over/under charge protection.  To me, having the SBMS software telling the Victron software to stop operating is great for automation, but is insufficient for protection.
There needs to be a remote operable physical disconnect device that the over/under voltage and over/under charge protection can operate. Victron agrees, as I cited earlier in their documentation.
I am using the EV200. Others will prefer a shunt trip breaker or a latching contactor.

[Chris Sailor]

bob, i stated Blue Systems because they are more commonly used in LFP builds as kilovac and are of the same high quality but the currents for operation are much lower then kilovacs ones. And blue system states the cycles lifespan but what are 300 cycles when used as emergency relay?

for sure these relays got better since i last used them, but i think the breaker with a trip coil is the right way to go here. If i keep my NH3 inline then i can accept a chinese breaker that tested by community.

The problem with LFP is the internal short curcuit current, my 1088AH is capable of 32000A and NH3 fuse can do 80000A DC but any contactor would be arced close=welded when this happens. had that once in a car which arced a 400A class T fuse and car burned down, since then i use only NH fuses.

They are initally made for europe power grid stations and high current commercial install, highly monitored and certified since 30years. the genuis think also the AC fuses are rated for DC use, its not printed on but if you look into detailed certification report the rating is also valid for DC, just short curcuit is 80kA instead 120kA AC. you don't get chinese copies as they are basically no savings possble, its 2 big chunk ceramic and silver plated cooper. As long as indicator is good they are ready to use, you can even use used ones without any hesitation...i buy them often from demolition company when they take down a factory, they sell them in boxes mostly consist of 40% used onces they dismantle and 60% never used spares for a bargain of 100Euro for 60fuses and 20 fuse holders. if they are black and ugly its just the silver that got black, not effecting usage, use a bit silver polish for your silver cuttlery and they look like new in 5min. an NH3 holder is new 300Euro and 630A fuse 100Euro, the last box for 80Euro i bought contained 5x630A fuse (1 used 4 new) and 2 nh3 fuse holder...

[Chris Sailor]

well its only SBMS software. The remote functionality is tested by victron to last 10years+ warranty periode daily use so you can rely on it better then anything you buy seperatly. As you know its not only the spec of one component, its the chain and the weakest link is the one that will cause the damage...in SBMS installation with all victron switched off via remote its the SBMS thats the weak point. Having A BMV712 that also does midpoint monitoring=can disconnect on cell deviation and steer the same remotes is the savest and again avoids switching on the high current side which is always problematic.

[Chris Sailor]

would recmmend to get 4 additional EVE304Ah, one is too much load and reduces lifespan strongly, they are good storage cells but not high C use, all above 0.3C=100A constant is damaging them on the long run. and you have 2400W cont and 5000W peak, you will start to use it when you are on the road eg microwave or an induction stove...just now its the hair dryer...always plan for the worst your system can do, you will use it one day...

[Marinepower]

I also sleep on top on my batteries and think you need some 2nd line of protection, for all the reasons already stated on this thread. 

The Victron BM712 is an interesting option I have not considered.   

For my current 2nd line of defence, I  have physically attached 60 degree celsius thermo fuses to each of my 4 eve 280ah cells and wired them  in parallel.  This circuit feeds the positive of all the SBMS0's EXTO relays so, in theory, if a battery gets hot, all charging and discharge should shut down. 

I'm in process of changing to a 4P4S set up, so this solution may no longer be practical.....

MP

On Thursday, December 28, 2023 at 6:25:45 AM UTC-8 captain...@gmail.com wrote: