D400 Wind generator integration.

[Gant Grant]

Hello.  New here and looking to switch my sailboat from LA to LFP.  Planning to use SBMS0. I am trying to decide the best way to shut down my D400 Wind Turbine to prevent overcharging. The 6TB12 regulator is not directly controllable except to crudely set output voltage. It has 2 output leads and will automatically switch charging between LA start and LFP house batteries as it sees fit. The regulator also has a dump load for when everything is fully charged. The turbine can not be remotely braked or stopped.  My plan is to have the SBMS0 break the circuit on the charging lead that goes to the LFP bank. This circuit is protected by a 40amp fuse. When this happens, charging current will all automatically go to the LA start and dumb load. 

I have Identified three options for the FLP current cut off relay that will be controlled by the SBMSO

1. Victron battery protect 65 amp.

2. 40 amp Fotek SSR mounted on a heatsink.  Possibly 2 of them in parallel.
3. DSSR50

DSSR50 is the most expensive option but seems like the most straight forward to wire if it is suitable.

Would this be an acceptable use for the DSSR50?

Thoughts on using the Victron BP65 as a relay?

Thanks everyone. 

Grant

[Dacian Todea (electrodacus)]

None of the 3 options including the DSSR50 will be capable of disconnecting a wind turbine from battery.

Not sure how that wind controller is designed but voltage will increase way to high when a wind turbine is disconnected from battery and will damage any of those 3 options.

The wind turbine was just designed for Lead Acid where when voltage exceeds the max battery charge voltage the controller will just switch the turbine from battery to the diversion resistors.

[sailingharry]

I have a somewhat similar issue on my boat, where I have a towed generator (Watt & Sea) that has no easy control, and a very dumb 50A charger that was installed by a  PO to provide multi-voltage support (110 and 240).  Neither have any real way to control the output. I also have 800W of solar that mostly keeps up with my daily load.  My intention when I go LFP (probably this winter) is to manually monitor those two devices, and place them offline when battery SOC is over about 80-90%, or even 98 or 99% if I watch very closely (I can't really see that as worth the effort).  Since LFP is so tolerant of partial SOC, getting to 80-90% is "good enough" and placing those devices on line to hopefully hit that level before noon allows the regulated solar to bring up the last 10%.  Unless the D400 is a major charge source (I highly doubt it, as they are nearly worthless), this approach may work well for you as well.

Note, I had a D400.  I had a dedicated ammeter on it, so could see the charge current at any time.  It rarely hit 5A.  10A was exciting.  I only saw 30A in the edge of a hurricane.  Unless you can get it someplace where it doesn't shade the solar, it's not worth the real estate.  Typical daily charge was around 30Ah or less (at 12V), where my solar gives closer to 200Ah.  They are always spinning, so it seems like they are always producing, but a meter will show otherwise.

[Gant Grant]

Thanks Harry for your input. I have not yet decided that the D400 is worthless. I've spent about $4k and done quite a bit of engineering work to get this thing running on my boat already. Yes I know that is a sunk cost fallacy but I have a narrow double ender so no arch and solar placement is tricky.  I have 500 watts of solar variously shaded and on cloudy days have been pretty happy with the contribution from the D400. I also have a dedicated ammeter for it. I am especially excited about its contribution when I get to some higher latitudes around patagonia.  The only way for me to manually shut down the D400 is to climb up on the stern and tie it down...  I know that I don't want to do that everyday especially in conditions that might require me to also be manning the wheel. 

Do you know what I mean by the 2 charging outputs from the D400's 6TB12 charge regulator? 

 According to the manufacture, as long as one of these leads is connected to the LA start battery, if the BMS disconnects the LFP from the LFP charge bus, the LA battery will maintain the load on the D400/regulator. I have both personal communication from Eclectic Energy (the manufacturer), and a document that they produced as a guide to running this wind generator with LFP. The description that they give seems to be more for a FET based BMS doing a High Voltage Disconnect instead of a Relay Based BMS system such as the SBMS0.  All in all, I am pretty confident that it can be disconnected from the LFP while still maintaining a load on it. I just want to know what relay would be best for accomplishing this. My preference would be the DSSR50 since it would be up to the amperage and its obviously compatible with direct control from SBMS0. I have read on some forum somewhere that somebody previously was using two 40 amp SSR's in parallel to shut the charging off on their D400 but there was not a very detailed description of exactly what they were doing. I guess my main question is still whether or not a relay breaking this charge circuit will be damaged and if so, why?

Thanks man for chiming in and please let me know if you have any other thoughts.

[Gant Grant]

Thank you Dacian.  I responded earlier to you but i am not familiar with google groups and my follow up might have either gone to email or just disappeared.  I will try to reformulate my further questions. 

[Gant Grant]

Hi Dacian.  

Would it be possible for you to explain what you think is the main sticking point that prevents disconnection of the wind turbine from the LFP battery via a relay controlled by SBMS0?

Just to make sure that I am explaining the situation as clearly as possible I will try again. The D400 is controlled by a charge regulator (6TB12) that has 2 output leads and is designed to be connected to two separate battery loads. The manufacturer of the wind generator (Eclectic Energy) claims that as long as I have one of the charging leads set up to charge the LA start battery, the other charge lead that goes to the LFP battery can safely be disconnected by a BMS.  It is possible that they are referring to the more common FET based BMS's but regardless they claim that this should not be a problem for the turbine or the regulator.  The way I see it is that the relay simply needs to cut the regulated current between the 6TB12 and the LFP battery.  I am not an electrical engineer and don't know much about this stuff, but isn't that exactly what a relay does?  Is there some property of the current between the charger and the load that will damage the relay?  I am aware for instance that you should not have a Victron Battery Protect between an LFP battery and an inverter due to the capacitors but i am not sure how the D400 would damage the relay. I specifically asked the manufacturer about voltage spikes if the load on the LFP charging cable is disconnected and they told me that the regulator would automatically switch charging to the LA bank.  At the time of the question I was worried that the regulator would be damaged by a voltage spike upon the loss of load to one of its charging circuits. (it is a $500 regulator). Eclectic Energy told me that it would not be a problem. If this was a solar panel setup connected to an MPPT charger and there was a relay between the MPPT and the LFP would this relay be damaged? I understand that this is not the proper way to shut down a solar charger, but would a DSSR50 function as a relay in that scenario? Almost every system sailing around out there probably has a Victron Battery Protect or equivalent mitigating a HVD event between the charging buss and the LFP. How is the placement of the relay between the wind turbines regulator (set at say 14V) and the charging bus different?   

I must reiterate that there is a load from the LA start battery always ready to absorb the loss of the LFP load.  When the batteries are all full the regulator sends current to a dump load composed of 2 large resistors.

I am gong to attach the directions received by the manufacturer for connection to an LFP system as well as an older manual for the 6tb12 that describes the unit and how to connect it to LA batteries. I will also add the relevant correspondence I have had with the manufacturer.

I really want the SBMS0 to be able to shut charging for this thing off. It is insane to me that I am trying to reinvent the wheel here but maybe I'm just dumb and it cant be done.  There are many boats sailing around with this D400 wind generator and if this solution works it could become the go to solution. I have been able to find very little information on the web regarding how to accomplish this.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I'm basically asking you to explain to me why I should not buy your product. I really would like to though.

Grant.

Emails to Eclectic Energy

Hi Peter.

One thing that I am coming up against is that I am about to switch my system over to a LiFePO4 battery. So far I have not seen an explanation on how to properly integrate the D400 into a LiFePO4 system. Since these batteries do not want to be float charged, I need the ability to completely disconnect the D400 from the charging circuit without it over spinning. This disconnect can possibly be created with a relay controlled by a Smart Battery Management System. I am thinking that since the 6TB has 2 output wires, as long as one of them is connected to the Lead Starter circuit, the 6TB will just divert the current to that battery in conjunction with the dump resistors.  Is this correct? Is it safe to just disconnect the 6TB from one of its loads as long as there is a different load on the other output wire?  Also, will the 6TB be able to see that it needs to charge the LiFePO4 Bank even though there is some sort of closed relay switch between it and the battery?

Hello Grant,

Thank you for your email.

Your comments on integrating a lithium upgrade with the 6TB regulator align with the suggested wiring solution described in the attached document. Many D400 owners have moved to lithium and connected in this way with no reported problems to date. A fully charged lithium bank will sit at a higher voltage than the lead acid equivalent, so in this circumstance the 6TB output will favour the lead acid. As this battery achieves full charge the dump circuit will engage, dissipating the D400 output through the dump resistors.  The hysteresis built into the regulator means the dump circuit will remain engaged until the battery voltage  falls by around 0.4 volt (12 volt version)

Ok Peter thank you for that info.

From the above I am lead to believe that as long as the dump resistors are configured correctly, and the second output wire from the 6TB is connected to the starter battery, breaking the circuit on the 1st output wire that goes to the LFP battery will not be a problem.  This would be the case even in the event that the LFP bank is being charged at a say 30 amps?  There would not be some over-voltage spike in the regulator with a sudden drop out of the battery load on that side?  I am thinking to use a 65 amp Victron Battery Protect as the switch and it will be remote controlled by the Battery Management System.

Hello Grant,

Thank you for your latest e-mail.

This does mean that if the BMS associated with the lithium batteries isolates them, the D400 remains connected to a viable load and the 6TB regulators dump circuit should also remain functional.

The dump switching is accomplished using a PWM circuit which has proportional action so there should be no voltage spikes.

 

On Sunday, August 25, 2024 at 8:27:50 AM UTC-7 electr...@gmail.com wrote:

[Xavier Alexandre]

Interesting topic. I have an old SilentWind Pro wind generator and a new SlentWind controller, which is comnnected to the SBMS0 and works well. I am considering replacing the generator with a DM400. I assume this would work well, maybe that is a solution here?

[sailingharry]

Grant,

In your case, with the wind generator not directly impacting the solar, the return is worth the real estate -- especially in windier locales.

My charge regulator doesn't have 2 outputs, so I have (had) a different regulator.  Mine had a toggle switch that force-diverts the output to the load resistors, effectively shutting down the output.  I could flip the switch and it would disconnect from the battery and dramatically reduce rotational speed.  I suspect that yours has something similar, or at least the potential -- when one or both batteries are full, the unit has to stop charging -- which means it has to do something with the turbine (a load dump to a resistor is standard, I think).

With regard to your sunk cost fallacy.  I spent the first 3 years we had the boat complaining loudly at how bad it was, shading my solar panels, but, well, I had it and so it was there.  Then it threw a blade in a storm, and the resulting oscillations tore the tail off.  I was looking at several hundred dollars to fix it, and started working up an order.  My wife said "you hate that thing so much, why would you spend that money to fix it?"  Uhh... umm... err.. yeah,  really, why?  LOL  We all suffer from that emotion....

[Dacian Todea (electrodacus)]

Grant,

Wind turbine controllers are fairly simplistically made.

Normally they will have a 3 phase bridge rectifier but seems in your case that is build in the wind turbine as manual shows a DC input in the controller.

From there there usually the battery is what regulates the voltage (designed for lead Acid) and to keep the battery voltage from exceeding the limits and not the the wind turbine open circuit they implemented a dump load that is connected using PWM in order not to have a sudden change in turbine load and to be able to still have a current flow in to battery to float charge it.

What they say is that their dual output controller can be used with Lithium batteries in the particular case where there is a permanently connected Lead Acid battery and of course the dump Load as the turbine will not remain open circuit when Lithium battery is disconnected.

I'm going to asumme that the dual output is achieved simply by using two blocking diodes on each output.

If there is no fault all should work correctly but I do not like the idea of any single fault resulting in a damaged wind turbine (over spinning and having broken blades fling around).

I had a similar small wind turbine for about a year (about 10 years ago) (I still have it is just disconnected with the 3 phase AC shorted)  The controller on that did not require a Load dump but was using the PWM inside to put the wind turbine in an electromagnetic brake when battery was charged. There was even a way to manually enable electromagnetic brake in case of a storm to protect the turbine but it was trough software so selecting the option in the controller menu. I seen some later models that had that available as a connector so a BMS can put the wind turbine in electromagnetic brake when battery is charged (a better solution).

The reason I disconnected and never used mine was because compared to solar it was completely useless so I used the wires (wires where more expensive than the wind turbine) to connect solar witch provided way more energy and much more consistent.

So any of your 3 options should work in normal operation while Lead Acid battery and dump resistors are connected. If connection two either of this fails then and of those 3 options will also likely fail and they will fail short circuit resulting in Lithium battery being overcharged unless you have second level protection (a trip circuit breaker controlled by the SBMS0 EXT IOx set as type 6) and of course then the wind turbine will fail as being open circuit it will over spin and you have the dangerous situation that blades can be fling around like projectiles.

[Gant Grant]

Thank you Dacian. That info is helpful.

Of the 3 options, (40 or more amp panel mount SSR with heat-sink, 65 amp Victron Battery Connect, or DSSR50) which would you think is least prone to failure in this situation where it is placed between the regulator and the charge buss? 

Additionally, and this likely demonstrates my vast ignorance about much of this subject, given that the DSSR50 has a diode in it, does this prevent voltage sensing upstream of the DSSR?  Would a solar controller function properly if there is a DSSR50 between it and the battery bank?

As far as levels of protection go, are you recommending the following:

1 = relay between charge regulator and charge bus controlled by EXTI0 set to Type 1

2 = trip breaker between 1st relay and charge bus controlled by EXT06

3 = 100 amp Victron Battery Protect as a charging bus disconnect between charge bus and battery controlled by EXTI04 default Type 1

Hopefully I would still have enough EXTIO's remaining to control alternator, solar, shore power, and LVD!

[Dacian Todea (electrodacus)]

Assuming the dual output wind turbine controllers have blocking diodes internally and the Lead Acid is always present the voltage on the second output will not be higher than about 15V so all 3 option's will be equally fine.

I think that wind controller will have a voltage on the second battery output that is Lead Acid battery voltage + 0.7 to 1V drop on the blocking diode on the Lead Acid output.

So no in that case the ideal diode in the DSSR50 should not have any impact.

A solar controller will typically be powered by battery and that will be prevented by the DSSR50 thus it will likely not work depending on design. The Victron MPPT's will likely work as they can be also powered by PV solar and even with no battery connected they output about 14V or 28V thus again the DSSR50 will not have an impact on functionality. 

The DSSR50 has an ideal diode so only a few mV drop not hundreds of mV to 1V on regular diodes so chargers will be able to see the actual battery voltage when they push a current in to battery.

As for max voltage handled by the DSSR50 is 60V the Victron battery protect max 32V (it has 35V rated input electrolytic capacitors) and do not know about the Fotek SSR's probably also 60V

I got some Fotek SSR's in the past from different sellers and they where all different and some where defect when received.

They seem to use a IGBT and will have about 0.7 to 1.1V drop meaning that at 40A they will need to be able to dissipate about 40W and that will require a large heatsink with active fan cooling.

Heatsink and active cooling is not required for Victron battery protect or DSSR50 as heat dissipation is order of magnitude lower.

A trip breaker controlled by EXT IOx set as type 6 to isolate the battery is all you need as secondary protection in order to protect the battery from both overcharge and overdischarge in case either a charger fails or a load fails.

The trip breaker will need to have two separate contacts one connected just after the PV shunt and the other just after battery shunt that way the battery will be fully isolated from all charge sources and all Loads and only the current shunts will remain connected to battery+

The DEXT will be available next month and that will provide plenty of EXT IOx and also output to directly control up to two trip circuit breakers.

[Gant Grant]

Thank you again Dacian.  I am stoked that it seems like this D400 wind generator has a path to being used with the SBMS0.

With regards to the last comment you made about the trip breaker. I am confused by "The trip breaker will need to have 2 separate contacts". It was my intention to use a 100 amp Victron Battery Protect to isolate the Charge Bus from the battery and a 200 amp Victron Battery Protect to isolate the Load Bus from the battery (both controlled by SBMSO).  Is this what you are referring to by Trip Breaker or is it more something along the lines of a Blue Sea 7713?  The battery will be 560AH and max loads should be under 200amp.  Is a Blue Sea 7713 more robust than a Victron Battery Protect and less susceptible to damage from a small inverter?

[Dacian Todea (electrodacus)]

You can use the two separate victron protect but is likely more expensive that just have a trip breaker with dual or triple contacts then just use one for charge buss and one or two for Loads.

You can check this link to get an idea what the trip circuit breakers are as I tested a few different versions a few years ago https://groups.google.com/g/electrodacus/c/CflxSzTsKaY/m/N4CVd6G_AQAJ

They are likely less expensive than two Victron battery protect and maybe more reliable as they are just electromechanical not electronic. They can also handle higher fault currents 25kA even 70kA for some that I tested well above the short circuit current of your battery.