Re: Death Penalty is necessary.
Dave Smith
> In article <bkh3g5phugvcnknjq...@4ax.com>,
> Lookout <mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:12:41 -0500, "tdny" <td...@live.com> wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/11/16/crimesider/photoessay5670512.shtml
>>>
>>>
>> It's expensive and useless as a deterrent.
>
> Can you actually quantify the capital crimes that did not occur because
> of the death penalty? Maybe a poll of criminals?
>
> That's the only way to determine if it's "useful". As for expensive -
> it's money that's spent here, on lawyers, and they pay taxes.
>
> Except for the ones in this administration :)
Some argue that capital punishment is not a deterrent because so many
murders are crimes of passion and done in the heat of the moment, such
as in domestic disputes. I have to agree that in cases like that it may
not be a deterrent in a case like that, though most domestic murders
occur as part of a pattern of escalation. Then there are the cold
blooded murders, gang shootings, contract killings etc.
The argument about the cost of capital punishment versus versus the cost
of imprisoning someone doesn't hold much water. It is the legal process
that accounts for most of the cost. Those teams of lawyers tied up in
court and all the other hours they add to the legal bill end up costing
a bundle. If they didn't keep the appeal process going for years and
years and years while the lawyers keep socking it to the legal aid
system it wouldn't cost much at all.
The punishment for murder here used to be death. They did away with the
death penalty and replaced it with life in prison. Life imprison them
became life in prison with eligibility for a parole after 25 years or
less. Then they decided that people should be eligible for early parole
after 1/3 of their sentence, so they are now getting out after 8 years
and a few months. When the 2 for 1 credit for pretrial time is applied,
and a case has dragged on for more than 4 years, the convicted murderer
in eligible for parole almost immediately after sentencing. Great system.
Alex DeLarge
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:25:32 -0500, "tdny" <td...@live.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Lookout" <mrLo...@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/11/16/crimesider/photoessay5670512.shtml
>>
>>
>>> It's expensive and useless as a deterrent.
>>
>> conviction
>> and the one in the link above, is one of them.
>
> I agree.
>
>> Well, in the case of the DC Killer, John Allen Muhammed,
>> arrested on October 24, 2002, executed November 11, 2009.
>>
>> That was done in record time.
>>
>> http://www.serialkillerdatabase.net/dcsnipers.html
>
> But to say it's a deterrent isn't true.
> And it costs more than a life in prison, that's a fact.
Due to unnecessary appeals.
Alex DeLarge
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:15:07 -0500, "tdny" <td...@live.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Lookout" <mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:bkh3g5phugvcnknjq...@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>> It's expensive and useless as a deterrent.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igWbih3CiVo
>>
>>
>> Ted Bundy
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBpNz9RwZ-M
>>
>> Jeff Dahmer
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9unVL8c3lVo&feature=related
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul bernardo and Karla homolka murderers
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebf7r_lnGmI
>>
>>
>> John Wayne Gacy
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebf7r_lnGmI
>>
>> Dennis Radar - BTK Killer
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebf7r_lnGmI
>>
> If you're trying to prove me wrong you failed miserably.
Fuck off and die.
Alex DeLarge
> Which is why I think the death penalty should only be used for murder
> cases and then the case has to be
Get this through your head, child.
NO ONE GIVES A FLYING FUCK WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT _ANYTHING_!!!
You are a spammer, a scumbag, a left-wing looney, and a despicable piece
of shit, capisce?
Gray Ghost
september.org:
Actually liar and coward would have been sufficicent.
--
�Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel
of envy, its inherent value is the equal sharing of misery.� Winston
Churchill
Gray Ghost
september.org:
> Lookout wrote:
The main reason he opposes the death penalty is he's eligible for it, along
with the rest of his leftist band of misfits.
Lookout
(Gray Ghost) wrote:
>Alex DeLarge <kor...@milk.bar> wrote in news:he58e2$bon$1...@news.eternal-
>september.org:
>
>> Lookout wrote:
>>
>>> Which is why I think the death penalty should only be used for murder
>>> cases and then the case has to be
>>
>> Get this through your head, child.
>>
>> NO ONE GIVES A FLYING FUCK WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT _ANYTHING_!!!
>>
>> You are a spammer, a scumbag, a left-wing looney, and a despicable piece
>> of shit, capisce?
>>
>
>Actually liar and coward would have been sufficicent.
He care or he wouldn't have answered.
And you care and I've caught you lying more than anyone else in here.
Lookout
(Gray Ghost) wrote:
>Alex DeLarge <kor...@milk.bar> wrote in news:he58e2$bon$1...@news.eternal-
>september.org:
>
>> Lookout wrote:
>>
>>> Which is why I think the death penalty should only be used for murder
>>> cases and then the case has to be
>>
>> Get this through your head, child.
>>
>> NO ONE GIVES A FLYING FUCK WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT _ANYTHING_!!!
>>
>> You are a spammer, a scumbag, a left-wing looney, and a despicable piece
>> of shit, capisce?
>
>The main reason he opposes the death penalty is he's eligible for it, along
>with the rest of his leftist band of misfits.
I don't oppose the death penalty. You can't go one response without a
lie.
ne...@millions.com
wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:40:57 -0500, Obwon <Ob...@real.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:13:35 -0600, Lookout
>><mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:45:12 -0500, Obwon <Ob...@real.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:37:54 -0600, Lookout
>>>><mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:21:07 -0500, Obwon <Ob...@real.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:18:36 -0600, Lookout
>>>>>><mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:07:08 -0500, "tdny" <td...@live.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Lookout" <mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:maa6g5hli5elkor0e...@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:43:37 -0500, "tdny" <td...@live.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"Lookout" <mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>news:dvc5g5pt3atsc150j...@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:32:42 -0500, "tdny" <td...@live.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>"Lookout" <mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>news:a804g55bbo4nrteg0...@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:29:34 -0600, Ivan Skavinsky Skavar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Iv...@borscht.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In article <bkh3g5phugvcnknjq...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lookout <mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:12:41 -0500, "tdny" <td...@live.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/11/16/crimesider/photoessay5670512.shtml
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's expensive and useless as a deterrent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Can you actually quantify the capital crimes that did not occur
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the death penalty? Maybe a poll of criminals?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Study after study has shown it's not a deterrent. Look at states with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the death penalty and those that don't and then tell me it's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deterrent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>That's the only way to determine if it's "useful". As for expensive -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it's money that's spent here, on lawyers, and they pay taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Except for the ones in this administration :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>In some cases, such as selling your 5 year old to her killer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>it doesn't matter if it acts as a deterrent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>The Death Penalty in such a case, for the mom that sold the 5 year old
>>>>>>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>>>the killer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>and the killer, is the only fair outcome, nothing else will do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We don't know enough about that case yet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>No, we don't.
>>>>>>>>>>I'm jumping the gun here, because I have had such a horrible reaction to
>>>>>>>>>>this story.
>>>>>>>>>>We are talking about a 5 year old child.
>>>>>>>>>>And that man is carrying her in his arms, in a motel room.
>>>>>>>>>>But if all the ducks are in a row, and he's it and that mom sold her to
>>>>>>>>>>him,
>>>>>>>>>>that's it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Would you have any objections to the application of the DP in a case such
>>>>>>>>>>as
>>>>>>>>>>this?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Those are not all the facts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I don't like the DP either, because of the possiblity of error, of killing
>>>>>>>>>>an innocent human being.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>But in an airtight case, when everything fits, you got the right party and
>>>>>>>>>>it is something like this,
>>>>>>>>>>that involves a child, would you still object?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I would not .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>It's hard, I know.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>But gee, that 5 year old didn't deserve that, she just didn't.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The victims age should have nothing to do with it. The verdict MUST be
>>>>>>>>> reached based on cold hard facts and not emotion. That's in every
>>>>>>>>> judges order to the jury I've read about in cases like this. You need
>>>>>>>>> to do the same.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Okay, you do have a valid point.
>>>>>>>>Wait, until the process takes its toll.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>But I don't think, you're right, when you say that the victims age has
>>>>>>>>nothing to do with it.
>>>>>>>>It does influence people, from the cop that makes the collar, to the ADA
>>>>>>>>that prosecutes the case,
>>>>>>>>and the judge and jury.
>>>>>>>>Even if it is unconscious, the victims age counts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No doubt. And if I were on jury for a case like this no doubt when we
>>>>>>>went into deliberation the others would want to kill me when I
>>>>>>>reminded them of what the judge said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And what of the less dramatic cases?
>>>>>
>>>>>Be more specific
>>>>
>>>> "The Law" in general is not perfect! Thus mistakes are
>>>>expected to be made, no matter what efforts are made to
>>>>prevent them. Thus, with a death penalty, the argument
>>>>goes, irreversible punishments will be meted out
>>>>undeservedly to people caught by the errors.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, one can point to specific cases of this or that
>>>>having happened. But, in the over all, the idea is that
>>>>irreversible punishments, should not be meted out, because
>>>>if and when error is discovered, there's nothing that can
>>>>be done to restore lives taken in error.
>>>>
>>>> To me, the thought of putting an innocent man to death in
>>>>error, takes all the vindication (joy? revenge?) out of
>>>>getting a Gacey on the gallows! Although, I'll admit, it
>>>>sure seems great for those of us who are able to look at
>>>>only one side of the problem.
>>>
>>>Which is why I think the death penalty should only be used for murder
>>>cases and then the case has to be air tight. Multiple witnesses, DNA
>>>evidence, video..it's got to be air tight. So you have to have
>>>multiple chances for review to make sure states like Texas doesn't
>>>kill indiscriminately.
>>>
>>>I think..and I'm still think..that execution would be acceptable in
>>>child rape cases but again it's got to be air tight. For drug dealing
>>>no matter how much, no way.
>>
>> You make sensible points. To be sure there are those who
>>are so incredibly damned by good hard believable evidence,
>>that guilt certain can be fixed. But the trouble with law
>>is, if you believe in the equal protection of it for all,
>>it's not going to be an easy thing to write laws that
>>pertain to just one class of accused. Once you start down
>>the road of writing exceptions, you tread on dangerous
>>ground.
>
>Agreed. Democracy and personal freedoms and rights are a bitch. It's
>not easy being the best but we have to continue trying.
>Repeating what others have said, other who are diametrically opposed
>to my political views but we do agree on this.....we must not execute
>one innocent man. We must take ever action possible to make sure that
>doesn't happen.
And after the determinations of evidense and guilt, carry out the
sentence or just do away with the death penalty.
DCI
Alex DeLarge
>
> Any value the death penalty might gain, from the
> executions of even a million "John Wayne Gaceys", does not
> equal or supercede the value lossed by the execution of one
> innocent man.
Why yes, it truly does, you insane rhetorical nitwit!
Are you on drugs?
Lookout
AND the appeals process.
ne...@millions.com
wrote:
Appeals: quickly so in a responsible manner. Not this 20 years and
counting stuff.
DCI
Alex DeLarge
Alex DeLarge
Lookout
Agreed. The current process is to slow.
David Johnston
<adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Ivan Skavinsky Skavar wrote:
>> In article <bkh3g5phugvcnknjq...@4ax.com>,
>> Lookout <mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:12:41 -0500, "tdny" <td...@live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/11/16/crimesider/photoessay5670512.shtml
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It's expensive and useless as a deterrent.
>>
>> Can you actually quantify the capital crimes that did not occur because
>> of the death penalty? Maybe a poll of criminals?
>>
>> That's the only way to determine if it's "useful". As for expensive -
>> it's money that's spent here, on lawyers, and they pay taxes.
>>
>> Except for the ones in this administration :)
>
>Some argue that capital punishment is not a deterrent because so many
>murders are crimes of passion and done in the heat of the moment, such
>as in domestic disputes. I have to agree that in cases like that it may
>not be a deterrent in a case like that, though most domestic murders
>occur as part of a pattern of escalation. Then there are the cold
>blooded murders, gang shootings, contract killings etc.
I see. And you believe that the cold-blooded murders are commited
with the idea that they'll get caught right?
Dave Smith
WTF is the connection there?
Gangsters may well be under the impression that they won't get caught,
but considering the odds of getting caught does not excuse the fact the
the murder was planned and carried out in cold blood. They know that
taking a life is wrong.
David Johnston
<adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>David Johnston wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:46:32 -0500, Dave Smith
>> <adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Ivan Skavinsky Skavar wrote:
>>>> In article <bkh3g5phugvcnknjq...@4ax.com>,
>>>> Lookout <mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:12:41 -0500, "tdny" <td...@live.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/11/16/crimesider/photoessay5670512.shtml
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> It's expensive and useless as a deterrent.
>>>> Can you actually quantify the capital crimes that did not occur because
>>>> of the death penalty? Maybe a poll of criminals?
>>>>
>>>> That's the only way to determine if it's "useful". As for expensive -
>>>> it's money that's spent here, on lawyers, and they pay taxes.
>>>>
>>>> Except for the ones in this administration :)
>>> Some argue that capital punishment is not a deterrent because so many
>>> murders are crimes of passion and done in the heat of the moment, such
>>> as in domestic disputes. I have to agree that in cases like that it may
>>> not be a deterrent in a case like that, though most domestic murders
>>> occur as part of a pattern of escalation. Then there are the cold
>>> blooded murders, gang shootings, contract killings etc.
>>
>> I see. And you believe that the cold-blooded murders are commited
>> with the idea that they'll get caught right?
>
>WTF is the connection there?
The subject was the deterrence value of capital punishment. If people
believe they won't get caught, the severity of the possible punishment
plays little role in their decision-making process.
Dave Smith
>
>>>>> Except for the ones in this administration :)
>>>> Some argue that capital punishment is not a deterrent because so many
>>>> murders are crimes of passion and done in the heat of the moment, such
>>>> as in domestic disputes. I have to agree that in cases like that it may
>>>> not be a deterrent in a case like that, though most domestic murders
>>>> occur as part of a pattern of escalation. Then there are the cold
>>>> blooded murders, gang shootings, contract killings etc.
>>> I see. And you believe that the cold-blooded murders are commited
>>> with the idea that they'll get caught right?
>> WTF is the connection there?
>
> The subject was the deterrence value of capital punishment. If people
> believe they won't get caught, the severity of the possible punishment
> plays little role in their decision-making process.
The more valid in regard to capital punishment in crimes of passion is
that they really aren't thinking with their conscious brain, as in
crimes of passion, not in cases of contract killings or gang killings
where they think that they can get away with it. Most people who commit
crimes plan to get away with them.
Rick Cartman
receive 25 years (life) in Canada. It isn't available for multiple
murderers, so Pickton, Paul Bernardo, Roch Th�riault, the guys from the recent
biker murders in Ontario and Cliff Olsen are out of luck.
What's really cool is that once a convict is deemed a "repeat offender", they
will stay in prision forever with no chance of parole.
It should apply to assassins and any terrorist whose actions result in a death
as well.
Bernardo's fate is worth than a quick death, in my opinion.
He's locked up 23/7 with 1 hour outside his cell, which isn't all that big.
He's not in the general population.
The lights in the cell are never turned off, and he's under CCTV as well.
If that was me? I'd rather be dead.
Dave Smith
>> The more valid in regard to capital punishment in crimes of passion is
>> that they really aren't thinking with their conscious brain, as in
>> crimes of passion, not in cases of contract killings or gang killings
>> where they think that they can get away with it. Most people who commit
>> crimes plan to get away with them.
>>
>>
> There was a remark earlier about the "Faint Hope Clause" for murderers who
> receive 25 years (life) in Canada. It isn't available for multiple
> murderers, so Pickton, Paul Bernardo, Roch Th�riault, the guys from the recent
> biker murders in Ontario and Cliff Olsen are out of luck.
>
> What's really cool is that once a convict is deemed a "repeat offender", they
> will stay in prision forever with no chance of parole.
>
> It should apply to assassins and any terrorist whose actions result in a death
> as well.
>
> Bernardo's fate is worth than a quick death, in my opinion.
>
> He's locked up 23/7 with 1 hour outside his cell, which isn't all that big.
>
> He's not in the general population.
>
> The lights in the cell are never turned off, and he's under CCTV as well.
>
> If that was me? I'd rather be dead.
Meanwhile, the wife who helped him, and who he says did the Killing, is
out of jail.
David Johnston
What's your point?
David Johnston
And this bears on the deterrence value of capital punishment...how?
Dave Smith
>> The more valid in regard to capital punishment in crimes of passion is
>> that they really aren't thinking with their conscious brain, as in
>> crimes of passion, not in cases of contract killings or gang killings
>> where they think that they can get away with it. Most people who commit
>> crimes plan to get away with them.
>
> And this bears on the deterrence value of capital punishment...how?
The application of punishment to deter crime works for most people.
There are a lot of people who lack the moral fortitude to obey the law,
but they comply because they are afraid that they will be caught and
punished. The fact that a small portion of the population is under the
impression that they can get away with a crime is not a reason not to
punish them. This is different from situations where a person gets
carried away in the heat of the moment.
Dave Smith
>>> There was a remark earlier about the "Faint Hope Clause" for murderers who
>>> receive 25 years (life) in Canada. It isn't available for multiple
>>> murderers, so Pickton, Paul Bernardo, Roch Th�riault, the guys from the recent
>>> biker murders in Ontario and Cliff Olsen are out of luck.
>>>
>>> What's really cool is that once a convict is deemed a "repeat offender", they
>>> will stay in prision forever with no chance of parole.
>>>
>>> It should apply to assassins and any terrorist whose actions result in a death
>>> as well.
>>>
>>> Bernardo's fate is worth than a quick death, in my opinion.
>>>
>>> He's locked up 23/7 with 1 hour outside his cell, which isn't all that big.
>>>
>>> He's not in the general population.
>>>
>>> The lights in the cell are never turned off, and he's under CCTV as well.
>>>
>>> If that was me? I'd rather be dead.
>> Meanwhile, the wife who helped him, and who he says did the Killing, is
>> out of jail.
>
> What's your point?
Sorry. I thought that is was fairly obvious. It was a gross miscarriage
of justice. Two people acted together to abduct, assault and murder
several people. One of them ratted out the other and got a sweet deal.
Bernardo will spend the rest of his life in jail, labelled as a
dangerous offender. His ex-wife and partner in crime is free after a
short term in jail for multiple homicides.
David Johnston
I'm aware. So what?
David Johnston
<adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>David Johnston wrote:
>
>>> The more valid in regard to capital punishment in crimes of passion is
>>> that they really aren't thinking with their conscious brain, as in
>>> crimes of passion, not in cases of contract killings or gang killings
>>> where they think that they can get away with it. Most people who commit
>>> crimes plan to get away with them.
>>
>> And this bears on the deterrence value of capital punishment...how?
>
>
>The application of punishment to deter crime works for most people.
I see. And you believe that people are not afraid of prison terms do
you?