Yes to the other list (I am making it a copyholder).I have been wondering if Frank Staemmler included Edith's work (The Problem of Empathy) in the research for his book. Anybody know?
Dan, I don't know if the client is also thematizing. The client might well remain naive, in the natural attitude, merely responding to what is going on. As you know, I'm not sure that what gestalt therapists actually do could rightly be called a phenomenological reduction, anyway. I think it is in the form of such a thing, but actually remains so tied to the lifeworld, to the givenness of the contact between therapist and client, that it is an incompetent bracketing that takes place. Further, as you have also remarked, do we not make USE of our countertransference rather than simply chuck it by the wayside. So, I think this is all more complex, not a simple matter, but one that we should be re-thinking.
We are a phenomenological approach, because we follow the phenomenality of both therapist and client and because we are informed by the work of phenomenological philosophers. However, I don't even think we, as therapists, were what Husserl and others were thinking about when they would use the term "psychology" in their philosophizing.
Rather, I think they were purposefully contrasting themselves with scientific psychology, what we might today call "experimental psychology." Back then psychology wanted the respectability of science, and the first "labs" were set up. That is not what psychotherapy is. So, I really believe we need to examine with a critical eye everything we've taken for granted with reference to a "phenomenological method" in gestalt therapy.
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>> We are a phenomenological approach, because we follow the phenomenality of both therapist and client and because we are informed by the work of phenomenological philosophers. However, I don't even think we, as therapists, were what Husserl and others were thinking about when they would use the term "psychology" in their philosophizing.
>
> Heidegger gave seminars to psychiatrists in Zollikon, Switzerland from 1959 to 1969. What do you think they were about? Not just academic philosophy!
I am thinking historically and developmentally. What you have here for dates, is past the period in which Husserl and Stein were writing. Correct? The line had moved, and psychotherapy (most likely called psychoanalysis at that point) was more prominent of course. But think back to when Stein and Husserl were writing. My bet is they are not thinking of a psychologist as someone meeting in an intersubjective encounter; my bet is they were thinking of the psychology lab. I might be wrong. Freud was also a student of Husserl's.
Phil
I am confident Husserl wasn’t writing for psychotherapists.
What was one of the major contributions of Heidegger — in the 1920’s? He brought affect into the world of philosophy. Sure, there was Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. But Heidegger made it central and part of his well-developed fundamental ontology.
Check the dates for Karl Jaspers. He and Heidegger were close.
On Jul 25, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Dan Bloom wrote:
Phil
I am following the story line of Husserl and Stein here for the sake of my studies. Their method uses the reduction.
There is a lot to be said in favor of the Husserl’s detailed and rational approach to phenomenology. I can see how Heidegger was criticized for not being able to withstand the kind of critical thinking that could be brought to Husserl.
Two roads diverged in the early 20th Century. The one, Cartesian, neo-Kantian, and scientific. The other, perhaps Hegelian, perhaps Idealist, certainly Kierkegaardian, Nietzschean. We know who followed which road.
Interestingly, gestalt theory took both roads.
Phenomenology took both roads.
Gestalt therapy is on both roads.
I am caught in a dilemma: my curiosity is drawn towards to what extent Edith's empathy can be seen as a field phenomenon; and I need to bracket that if I am to get close to what Edith is saying.
In the natural
attitude, however, we can never see this object in its purity, for this
would involve stripping the world of its interest. Yet, due to its intentional
character, life always implements a certain interest. There is no
unintentional life, and intentionality always strives toward fulfillment.11
The world has thus a “face of interest” that it always shows us in
one way or another. Since it is essentially a world of interests, one
can give another notion to characterize the world: If the execution of
life occurs in a multitude of situations, then life becomes the situation
of all situations, or the horizon of all horizons.12 How is one to understand
a “horizon of all horizons”? Husserl conceives of the life-world
as the totality of life in its multitudinous facets. The life-world is the
field in which life in general carries itself out in its everydayness.
Whether Husserl calls this phenomenon life-world or “natural worldlife,”
he alternately emphasizes either the noematic (the world) or the
noetic (the subjective, living) aspect. The noetic-noematic structure designates
the correlational a priori in its universal form.13 It signifies the
essential relatedness of world and conscious life. The correlate to the
life-world is that mode of living in which this life-world is the horizon
for any kind of action: the “natural attitude.”14
"I do my thing and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
And you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I, and if by chance we find each other, it's beautiful.
If not, it can't be helped."
Now we both cringe and laugh at that. So, moving on, I believe interest DOES help organize the field. You say need. I say interest.
"You say either and I say either, You say neither and I say neither
Either, either Neither, neither, Let's call the whole thing off.
You like potato and I like potahto, You like tomato and I like tomahto
Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto, Let's call the whole thing off
But oh, if we call the whole thing off Then we must part
And oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart"
So, let's not call the whole thing off, okay?
Phil
Friends:I’ve read an excellent article by Sebastian Luft, “Husserl’s Theory of the Phenomenological Reduction: Between Life-World and Cartesianism.” I think it is relevant to our understanding of Stein criticism of Husserl’s transcendental phenomenology.The following quote is also relevant to a recent exchange and supports the notion that there is inevitable thematizing of the subject within the p. method.="From its inception in the Logical Investigations, phenomenology endeavorsto analyze consciousness. The “positive” discipline for this is, naturally,psychology. However, phenomenology as rigorous science aimsat moving from facts regarding the human consciousness to essences;it is an eidetic science of consciousness, as essentially characterized bythe structure of intentionality. Yet, this intentionality is itself not ahomogenous and “uniform” framework but is structured by the structureof cogito—cogitatum. Accounting for this “rich” structure calls for awhole “psychology” on the basis of the phenomenological principles(intentionality). Phenomenological psychology is this designated disciplineperformed on the basis of an eidetic description of consciousphenomena. Structuring this discipline has its own problems anddifficulties, which shall not be discussed here. Yet it is clear how itwould be necessary to systematically carry this out as a “universal”analysis. Husserl reflected intensely on how to perform this task in asystematic fashion.41 In short, he proceeds from a positive science withinthe whole of the human sciences. In this framework, psychology, asscience of consciousness conceived as a single ego would be followedby the science of communal spirit42 in the framework of a phenomenologyof intersubjectivity. However, these considerations, according to Husserl,thematize subjectivity as part of the world and hence remain boundto the natural attitude.”Since subjectivity isunavoidablythematized in the p.method, in order to maintain an “ethical” stance, or in my terms, to enable the emerge of an ethos within which dialogical contacting is possible (with its implicit ethical relational ground), the therapist must know he/she is thematizing and know that the patient is doing the same. But this is not enough.As we know, thematizing is not simply “projecting” that can easily since we cannot simply step out of the very framework that makes thematizing inevitable.How do we do this?Can Stein’s empathy be a way?Does this relate to Same - the Other? How about alterity?Should this go on the other list, too?DanDan
Yes to the other list (I am making it a copyholder).I have been wondering if Frank Staemmler included Edith's work (The Problem of Empathy) in the research for his book. Anybody know?Dan, I don't know if the client is also thematizing. The client might well remain naive, in the natural attitude, merely responding to what is going on. As you know, I'm not sure that what gestalt therapists actually do could rightly be called a phenomenological reduction, anyway. I think it is in the form of such a thing, but actually remains so tied to the lifeworld, to the givenness of the contact between therapist and client, that it is an incompetent bracketing that takes place. Further, as you have also remarked, do we not make USE of our countertransference rather than simply chuck it by the wayside. So, I think this is all more complex, not a simple matter, but one that we should be re-thinking.We are a phenomenological approach, because we follow the phenomenality of both therapist and client and because we are informed by the work of phenomenological philosophers. However, I don't even think we, as therapists, were what Husserl and others were thinking about when they would use the term "psychology" in their philosophizing. Rather, I think they were purposefully contrasting themselves with scientific psychology, what we might today call "experimental psychology." Back then psychology wanted the respectability of science, and the first "labs" were set up. That is not what psychotherapy is. So, I really believe we need to examine with a critical eye everything we've taken for granted with reference to a "phenomenological method" in gestalt therapy.Phil
Our reduction has to do with the issue or truth or falsehood. We want to know how a given belief operates in how the client lives. We do not take a strong position as to whether or not the story is an representation of what really happens/happened. This is our analogy to Husserl's reduction of all questions concerning the existence of a world beyond experience. We do not make the same assumption about the existence of the external world, taking instead basically a modified realist position; so we do not go with this reduction of Husserl's. But, more importantly, this kind of reduction or bracketing is irrelevant to the therapeutic process and its goals.Sylvia
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Dear Sylvia,This is the first time I have understood you to say (and mean) that we do not take Husserl's reduction. That is a simple and straightforward statement. Thus, when you say we turn it on its head, and I say that we follow a "form" of his reduction, perhaps we are closer than you might think to being on the same page.
Phil
On Jul 26, 2010, at 2:55 AM, CROC...@aol.com wrote:
Our reduction has to do with the issue or truth or falsehood. We want to know how a given belief operates in how the client lives. We do not take a strong position as to whether or not the story is an representation of what really happens/happened. This is our analogy to Husserl's reduction of all questions concerning the existence of a world beyond experience. We do not make the same assumption about the existence of the external world, taking instead basically a modified realist position; so we do not go with this reduction of Husserl's. But, more importantly, this kind of reduction or bracketing is irrelevant to the therapeutic process and its goals.Sylvia
In a message dated 7/25/2010 9:04:41 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, philbr...@logic.bm writes:
Yes to the other list (I am making it a copyholder).I have been wondering if Frank Staemmler included Edith's work (The Problem of Empathy) in the research for his book. Anybody know?Dan, I don't know if the client is also thematizing. The client might well remain naive, in the natural attitude, merely responding to what is going on. As you know, I'm not sure that what gestalt therapists actually do could rightly be called a phenomenological reduction, anyway. I think it is in the form of such a thing, but actually remains so tied to the lifeworld, to the givenness of the contact between therapist and client, that it is an incompetent bracketing that takes place. Further, as you have also remarked, do we not make USE of our countertransference rather than simply chuck it by the wayside. So, I think this is all more complex, not a simple matter, but one that we should be re-thinking.We are a phenomenological approach, because we follow the phenomenality of both therapist and client and because we are informed by the work of phenomenological philosophers. However, I don't even think we, as therapists, were what Husserl and others were thinking about when they would use the term "psychology" in their philosophizing. Rather, I think they were purposefully contrasting themselves with scientific psychology, what we might today call "experimental psychology." Back then psychology wanted the respectability of science, and the first "labs" were set up. That is not what psychotherapy is. So, I really believe we need to examine with a critical eye everything we've taken for granted with reference to a "phenomenological method" in gestalt therapy.
Phil
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