Help Scottish languages
Craig Cockburn
http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/howtohelp/
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn"). SiliconGlen.com Ltd. http://SiliconGlen.com
Home to the first online guide to Scotland, founded 1994.
Scottish culture, search, weddings, computing, travel, jokes and more!
j.mcfadden47
John
Craig Cockburn <cr...@SiliconGlen.com> wrote in message
news:tnjUjkIp...@SiliconGlen.com...
Ross Fleming
maybe i missed the point) rather keep the memory of it alive. If we don't
tell our children, no-one will, and the knowledge will be lost.
Why keep any record of anything?... A recent report in the news suggested
that we (as a world) are keeping less records than before since most
communication is electronic. I seriously doubt that any discussions in
newsgroups will be kept permanently, if only because they seem inane and
unimportant to the future, but, say, 500 years later, historians would be
very interested.
Ross
Mike MacKinnon
"j.mcfadden47" <j.mcfa...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:LqTI8.3617$C72.2...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> Why should we be supporting a dying language?
> John
>
Mike
Andrew MacCormack
>
> Why should we be supporting a dying language?
> John
>
--
___#--- Andrew MacCormack and...@tality.com
L_ _| Senior Design Engineer
| | Tality, Alba Campus, Livingston EH54 7HH, Scotland
! | Phone: +44 1506 595360 Fax: +44 1506 595959
T A L I T Y http://www.tality.com
Richard Tobin
Mike MacKinnon <mikema...@pgpower.com> wrote:
>> Why should we be supporting a dying language?
>Possibly to support part of your heritage?
I'm all in favour of recording old languages, but when I hear the word
"heritage" I reach for my sick-bag.
-- Richard
--
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.
FreeBSD rules!
Richard Caley
jm> Why should we be supporting a dying language?
What makes you think it is an attempt to support any language? Looks
to me more an attempt to take some pictures of it before it dies.
--
Mail me as MYFIR...@MYLASTNAME.org.uk _O_
|<
Mike MacKinnon
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
> In article <bB%I8.8141$04.2...@news.iol.ie> mikema...@pgpower.com
wrote...
>
> > > Why should we be supporting a dying language?
>
>
If I presume that you're Scots, then the language was spoken in Scotland,
therefore it's part of your heritage. Or do you seek a national heritage
that only includes the bits that suit you?
M
Ian Johnston
<mikema...@pgpower.com> wrote:
:
: "Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
I don't think you can claim that every part of the Scottish heritage
applies to every contemporary Scot. To the best of my knowldge, none
of my ancestors for the last two hundred years have been Gaelic
speakers (though a few may have been Irish speakers) and I think it
would therefore be rather arrogant of me to claim that Gaelic is part
of my heritage. That's not to say it isn't a vlued part of other
people's heritage's, of course, but let's not get too homogeneous
about this. There are Scots for whom Gaelic is far less important than
Italian, Polish, Urdu, Cantonese, Swahili, Portugese, Welsh, Lettish
or Romanche, yet no one would claim that these are part of every
Scot's national heritage.
As for supporting Gaelic - unless a way can be found to persuade, pay
or force native speakers not to seek their fortunes in London, Paris,
Aberdeen or Galveston I am not sure there is much long term hope. I
think I'd see the opening up of horizons for the people of Stornoway
(or Glasgow, or Sindh) as quite a compensation for the loss of
languages, which have often developed or survived because of the
restrictions placed on the speakers.
Ian
MacRobert
paused to reflect but wrote anyway:
Good ol' Hadrian...
Andrew Aylett
> In article <o1lJ8.8205$04.2...@news.iol.ie>
> mikema...@pgpower.com wrote...
>
> > > Gaelic is part of my heritage, is it? Why?
> > >
> > If I presume that you're Scots, then the language was spoken in Scotland,
> > therefore it's part of your heritage. Or do you seek a national heritage
> > that only includes the bits that suit you?
>
> No, only the bits that are appropriate. Just how much Gaelic was ever
> spoken in the Lowlands?
>
> Besides, burning witches, starvation, clan warfare and abject poverty
> are all parts of our heritage too, by your definition. Do you want to
> keep these practices alive as well? Or do you only like the bits of our
> heritage that suit you?
This project isn't so much about keeping things alive, but keeping a
record of what today is like, for the interest and study of future
generations, as well as helping today's linguists greatly.
Also I should point out that they are looking to preserve Scots
*English* -- I presume you speak English? With a Scottish accent?
Would you say *that* was part of your heritage?
The Corpus texts are used greatly in generating dictionaries,
translators, spell checkers etc. Up to now, there's only been at best
a UK English corpus, probably an English English one really.
BTW, did you actually read the site before spouting off about it?
HAND,
--
Andrew Aylett | www.aylett.co.uk | 1.79 x 10^12 furlongs per fortnight...
and...@aylett.co.uk | answer==42 | -- it's not just a good idea, it's the law!
Kenneth MacDonald
Mike> In article <o1lJ8.8205$04.2...@news.iol.ie>
Mike> mikema...@pgpower.com wrote...
>> > Gaelic is part of my heritage, is it? Why?
>> >
>> If I presume that you're Scots, then the language was spoken in
>> Scotland, therefore it's part of your heritage. Or do you seek
>> a national heritage that only includes the bits that suit you?
Mike> No, only the bits that are appropriate. Just how much Gaelic
Mike> was ever spoken in the Lowlands?
Well, Glasgow is a Gaelic name, so somebody must have spoken the
langauge there in the past. Even names like Balerno are Gaelic (place
of the damson trees).
Of course, we could go back to the Pictish words, like Pit which are
quite common in placenames, or Norse too.
I like placenames :)
--
Kenny
ADML Support, EUCS, The University of Edinburgh, Scotland.
Allan Connochie
"Kenneth MacDonald" <ke...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:yqobsax...@penguin.ucs.ed.ac.uk...
> >>>>> "Mike" == Mike Dickson <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> writes:
>
> Mike> In article <o1lJ8.8205$04.2...@news.iol.ie>
> Mike> mikema...@pgpower.com wrote...
> >> > Gaelic is part of my heritage, is it? Why?
> >> >
> >> If I presume that you're Scots, then the language was spoken in
> >> Scotland, therefore it's part of your heritage. Or do you seek
> >> a national heritage that only includes the bits that suit you?
>
> Mike> No, only the bits that are appropriate. Just how much Gaelic
> Mike> was ever spoken in the Lowlands?
>
> Well, Glasgow is a Gaelic name, so somebody must have spoken the
> langauge there in the past.
Actually Glasgow is a Brittonic name. Brittonic [or Cymric] was spoken in
this area before Gaelic. Though yes Gaelic was spoken at one time or
another through most of Scotland.
Allan
Allan Connochie
"Andrew Aylett" <use...@aylett.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ynv9k7pl...@tweed.dcs.ed.ac.uk...
> mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>
> > In article <o1lJ8.8205$04.2...@news.iol.ie>
> > mikema...@pgpower.com wrote...
> >
> > > > Gaelic is part of my heritage, is it? Why?
> > > >
> > > If I presume that you're Scots, then the language was spoken in
Scotland,
> > > therefore it's part of your heritage. Or do you seek a national
heritage
> > > that only includes the bits that suit you?
> >
> > No, only the bits that are appropriate. Just how much Gaelic was ever
> > spoken in the Lowlands?
> >
> > Besides, burning witches, starvation, clan warfare and abject poverty
> > are all parts of our heritage too, by your definition. Do you want to
> > keep these practices alive as well? Or do you only like the bits of our
> > heritage that suit you?
>
> This project isn't so much about keeping things alive, but keeping a
> record of what today is like, for the interest and study of future
> generations, as well as helping today's linguists greatly.
>
> Also I should point out that they are looking to preserve Scots
> *English* -- I presume you speak English? With a Scottish accent?
> Would you say *that* was part of your heritage?
Scots [the language] and Scottish Standard English [speaking English in the
Scottish manner] are two seperate things of course.
Allan
Alan Smaill
> On Thu, 30 May 2002 08:03:32, "Mike MacKinnon"
> <mikema...@pgpower.com> wrote:
>
> :
> : "Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
> : news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
> : > In article <bB%I8.8141$04.2...@news.iol.ie> mikema...@pgpower.com
> : wrote...
> : >
> : > > > Why should we be supporting a dying language?
> : > > Possibly to support part of your heritage?
> : >
> : > Gaelic is part of my heritage, is it? Why?
>
> : If I presume that you're Scots, then the language was spoken in Scotland,
> : therefore it's part of your heritage. Or do you seek a national heritage
> : that only includes the bits that suit you?
>
> I don't think you can claim that every part of the Scottish heritage
> applies to every contemporary Scot.
Right.
> To the best of my knowldge, none
> of my ancestors for the last two hundred years have been Gaelic
> speakers (though a few may have been Irish speakers)
that's Gaelic too.
> and I think it
> would therefore be rather arrogant of me to claim that Gaelic is part
> of my heritage.
Well, you might wonder where the name "Ian" comes from.
> That's not to say it isn't a vlued part of other
> people's heritage's, of course, but let's not get too homogeneous
> about this. There are Scots for whom Gaelic is far less important than
> Italian, Polish, Urdu, Cantonese, Swahili, Portugese, Welsh, Lettish
> or Romanche, yet no one would claim that these are part of every
> Scot's national heritage.
Right again;
(well, are you sure there are Scots Romanche speakers?).
But there is a difference between Gaelic and these languages --
if no-one in Scotland speaks Italian any more, Italian will
continue to be spoken, as will Latvian (is that Lettish? or is it Lithuanian?).
I don't think this is true for Gaelic.
> As for supporting Gaelic - unless a way can be found to persuade, pay
> or force native speakers not to seek their fortunes in London, Paris,
> Aberdeen or Galveston I am not sure there is much long term hope.
That can't be the answer, and I assume you don't think it is.
What about Gaelic medium schools in places where Gaelic speakers
are already present in numbers (eg Glasgow)?
From what I remember, some time ago, it was the largest
Gaelic speaking community, by absolute numbers.
> think I'd see the opening up of horizons for the people of Stornoway
> (or Glasgow, or Sindh) as quite a compensation for the loss of
> languages, which have often developed or survived because of the
> restrictions placed on the speakers.
I'd like to know what examples you are thinking of of such development
and survival.
Studies generally show that being brought up in a bilingual situation
(which is what we are talking about for such folk in Scotland) is
an opening of horizons in itself, an educational advantage.
> Ian
--
Alan Smaill email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
Division of Informatics tel: 44-131-650-2710
Edinburgh University
Alan Smaill
> In article <o1lJ8.8205$04.2...@news.iol.ie>
> mikema...@pgpower.com wrote...
>
> > > Gaelic is part of my heritage, is it? Why?
> > >
> > If I presume that you're Scots, then the language was spoken in Scotland,
> > therefore it's part of your heritage. Or do you seek a national heritage
> > that only includes the bits that suit you?
>
> No, only the bits that are appropriate. Just how much Gaelic was ever
> spoken in the Lowlands?
>
> Besides, burning witches, starvation, clan warfare and abject poverty
> are all parts of our heritage too, by your definition. Do you want to
> keep these practices alive as well? Or do you only like the bits of our
> heritage that suit you?
Isn't that a good idea?
-- let's keep the good bits of the heritage!
Why do you equate Gaelic with burning witches, then?
>
> Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Edinburgh, Scotland
> fax 0131-229-4820 - Columnated Ruins Domino - Mellotron M400 #996
Mike MacKinnon
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > > Gaelic is part of my heritage, is it? Why?
> > >
> > If I presume that you're Scots, then the language was spoken in
Scotland,
> > therefore it's part of your heritage. Or do you seek a national heritage
> > that only includes the bits that suit you?
>
> spoken in the Lowlands?
>
> Besides, burning witches, starvation, clan warfare and abject poverty
> are all parts of our heritage too, by your definition. Do you want to
> keep these practices alive as well? Or do you only like the bits of our
> heritage that suit you?
>
heritage is something in the past that became an established pattern None of
the latter were.
And what if it wasn't spoken south of Perth? Did/does Scotland stop north of
Perth?
M
Mike MacKinnon
"Allan Connochie" <co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote in message
news:ad68nb$41t$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
meaning green even in Irish and Scots Gaelic today.
M
Ian Johnston
: engs...@ermine.ox.ac.uk (Ian Johnston) writes:
: > To the best of my knowldge, none
: > of my ancestors for the last two hundred years have been Gaelic
: > speakers (though a few may have been Irish speakers)
:
: that's Gaelic too.
You know what I mean!
: > and I think it
: > would therefore be rather arrogant of me to claim that Gaelic is part
: > of my heritage.
:
: Well, you might wonder where the name "Ian" comes from.
Palestine, originally.
: But there is a difference between Gaelic and these languages --
: if no-one in Scotland speaks Italian any more, Italian will
: continue to be spoken, as will Latvian (is that Lettish? or is it Lithuanian?).
: I don't think this is true for Gaelic.
Which would be sad, but I am honestly not sure that in the grand
scheme of things it matters terribly much. Certainly not enough for
any element of compulsion in its maintenance.
: > As for supporting Gaelic - unless a way can be found to persuade, pay
: > or force native speakers not to seek their fortunes in London, Paris,
: > Aberdeen or Galveston I am not sure there is much long term hope.
:
: That can't be the answer, and I assume you don't think it is.
:
: What about Gaelic medium schools in places where Gaelic speakers
: are already present in numbers (eg Glasgow)?
: From what I remember, some time ago, it was the largest
: Gaelic speaking community, by absolute numbers.
I'm not sure if that's teh case any more, but sure. The problem is
still that if you have a choice, in Glasgow, between learning (or
having your child taught) Gaelic and German, or Portugese, or
Japanese, you have to ask which one is likely to be of the most
personal benefit in the future. If it's Gaelic - or if you're (one is)
willing to put the survival of Gaelic ahead of utility, then good
luck.
: > think I'd see the opening up of horizons for the people of Stornoway
: > (or Glasgow, or Sindh) as quite a compensation for the loss of
: > languages, which have often developed or survived because of the
: > restrictions placed on the speakers.
:
: I'd like to know what examples you are thinking of of such development
: and survival.
Is it not near universal that when travel restrictions on groups of
people with a local language have been removed, the language has
tended to disappear or at least coalesce. I don't think it's
coincidence that Gaelic as a local language has really only survived
in the most difficult to get to bits of Scotland. For other examples
see: a) the way French has displaced the many other languages of
France over the past 150 years b) the fate of Cornish and Manx c) the
dilution of regionally accented english south of the border. If a
language is only spoken by a majority of the population in a very
small area, then as soon as people in that area get aspirations to
live or work elsewhere it's inevitable that the language will be
weakened. Depopulation of the Outer Hebrides is now, what 7% per annum
or so. Is it not a Good Thing that a child growing up in Stornoway can
now realistically plan for a career in Southampton or Genoa, whereas a
hundred years ago it would have been Stornoway or ... Stornoway?
That's why I think we should see the disappearance of local languages,
though undoubtedly sad, as a side effect of a degree of personal
emancipation worth celebrating.
: Studies generally show that being brought up in a bilingual situation
: (which is what we are talking about for such folk in Scotland) is
: an opening of horizons in itself, an educational advantage.
Oh, absolutely. Gaelic + English is undoubtedly better than Gaelic, or
English. But is it doing an Edinburgh child (as opposed to Scottish
culture) any favours to bring it up Gaelic/English bilingual rather
than Spanish/English?
Ian
Andrew MacCormack
>
> Oh, absolutely. Gaelic + English is undoubtedly better than Gaelic, or
> English. But is it doing an Edinburgh child (as opposed to Scottish
> culture) any favours to bring it up Gaelic/English bilingual rather
> than Spanish/English?
>
mi pathetico castellano y gallico!
To become fluently bilingual, a child tends to have to be immersed in
the "second" language by the parents as the "first" language (i.e. the
one that they will natuarlly pick up at school, friends, general life)
will come pretty naturally anyway. Or so I've read. Since we're
expecting our first child in November, my Spanish wife and I have been
looking into how it can learn to speak the languages of both halves of
its heritage.
I did a year of Gaelic in evening classes in Aberdeen when I was at
primary school, but I remember even less of it than my secondary school
French. A few more school lesons in Gaelic isn't going to save it from
decline unless you start putting big statutory controls: insiting that
goverment employees and teachers speak it (a bit like Welsh or Euskera,
the Basque language). And I really don't think that that is a good idea.
If children are only taught as much Gaelic as they typically are taught
French as school then they won't remember much of it unless they use it
regularly.
The only reason I have been more successful at learning Spanish than I
ever was at French, Gaelic or German is becuase I have to use it. A
fortunate few people can learn a language from a book, but not the
majority of us.
On the other hand, it might be handy to have a secret code that the
English cannot fathom... but then west coast accents tend to achieve
that anyway!
MacRobert
paused to reflect but wrote anyway:
>On Fri, 31 May 2002 02:10:55, Alan Smaill <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>: engs...@ermine.ox.ac.uk (Ian Johnston) writes:
>: > To the best of my knowldge, none
>: > of my ancestors for the last two hundred years have been Gaelic
>: > speakers (though a few may have been Irish speakers)
>:
>: that's Gaelic too.
>
>You know what I mean!
>
>: > and I think it
>: > would therefore be rather arrogant of me to claim that Gaelic is part
>: > of my heritage.
>:
>: Well, you might wonder where the name "Ian" comes from.
>
>Palestine, originally.
>
Judea, shirley?
(snip)
>Oh, absolutely. Gaelic + English is undoubtedly better than Gaelic, or
>English. But is it doing an Edinburgh child (as opposed to Scottish
>culture) any favours to bring it up Gaelic/English bilingual rather
>than Spanish/English?
I can think of several reasons why in the long run it would be more
advantageous to know a language indigenous and almost unique to one's
homeland.
Stephen
BTW nice to see you back in the stews, Ian.
Ian Johnston
: On 31 May 2002 15:27:01 GMT, engs...@ermine.ox.ac.uk (Ian Johnston)
: paused to reflect but wrote anyway:
: >Palestine, originally.
: Judea, shirley?
Well, not Scotland anyway ...
:
: (snip)
:
: >Oh, absolutely. Gaelic + English is undoubtedly better than Gaelic, or
: >English. But is it doing an Edinburgh child (as opposed to Scottish
: >culture) any favours to bring it up Gaelic/English bilingual rather
: >than Spanish/English?
:
: I can think of several reasons why in the long run it would be more
: advantageous to know a language indigenous and almost unique to one's
: homeland.
I can certainly think of reasons why it might be more advantageous for
some children. But then, I can think up reasons why German, Japanese,
Urdu or Latin might be more advantageous for others..
: BTW nice to see you back in the stews, Ian.
Thanks!
Shirley
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > > Why should we be supporting a dying language?
>
>
> Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Edinburgh, Scotland
> fax 0131-229-4820 - Columnated Ruins Domino - Mellotron M400 #996
Only you will know the answer to that. As far as we know you could be a
Greek or a Turk. Everyone's heritage is individual to them.
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots for Sincerely),
Auld Bob Peffers,
b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
Web Site, *The Eck's Files*
http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/
bogus address
> On the other hand, it might be handy to have a secret code that the
> English cannot fathom... but then west coast accents tend to achieve
> that anyway!
It always seemed to me that having the comments and documentation for
a software project in Gaelic would be a rather good poison pill to
prevent the outfit suffering a hostile takeover (in this instance
the problem being the Americans or Japanese, there haven't been many
Scottish computing projects taken over by English firms lately).
========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Richard Tobin
bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>It always seemed to me that having the comments and documentation for
>a software project in Gaelic would be a rather good poison pill to
>prevent the outfit suffering a hostile takeover (in this instance
>the problem being the Americans or Japanese, there haven't been many
>Scottish computing projects taken over by English firms lately).
Should be fairly effective at preventing a Scottish takeover, too.
Not to mention preventing the software from being maintained.
Allan Connochie
Allan Connochie
"Allan Connochie" <co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote in message news:...
I suppose we have to avoid falling into the trap of it could be a Gaelic
name therefore it is a Gaelic name! Especially as the city is bang in the
middle of what was the centre of Cymric speaking Strathclyde.
"But Glasgow is the Brittonic 'glas-cau' - green
hollow............Scotland's Place Names by David Dorward."
"an earlier form of the Welsh 'cau' - hollow- is recorded in Glasgow and
Linlithgow................Glasgow must have referred to some kind of human
habitation in Cumbric times................Scottish Place Names by
W.F.H.Nicolaisen"
cheers
Allan
> >
> > M
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Ian Johnston
wrote:
: Not to mention preventing the software from being maintained.
Isn't there a port of Intercal into Gaelic? That would make software
almost impossible to write in the first place, let alone maintain it
later ...
Ian
--
Angus Creech
> Frankly, it just about did. You're forgetting that it wasn't all that
> long ago that those of us living inthe southern half of the country
> viewed those in the north as less than animals.
Yes, and before that both Highlander and Lowlander fought alongside each other
for the independence of their country - the estrangement of the two was a slow
process, taking several centuries.
Angus
Angus Creech
>>Why do you equate Gaelic with burning witches, then?
>
>
> I 'equate' (crap choice of words there, BTW) Gaelic with burning witches
> because they are both ancient and absolutely irrelevant remnants from
> isolated parts of this country that have no bearing whatsoever in life
> in Scotland today.
You really don't mince your words, do you Mike ?
<g>
Angus
Allan Connochie
Alan Hardie
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > Isn't that a good idea?
> > -- let's keep the good bits of the heritage!
> >
> > Why do you equate Gaelic with burning witches, then?
>
>
> I 'equate' (crap choice of words there, BTW) Gaelic with burning witches
> because they are both ancient and absolutely irrelevant remnants from
> isolated parts of this country that have no bearing whatsoever in life
> in Scotland today.
>
Gaelic has complete bearing in parts of the Highlands and Islands where
people use it as their first language. Pillock. What is more, burning
witches is not a "remnant" as it is no longer carried out and when it was
carried out it was not necessarily done in "isolated" parts of the country
but in all four corners of the country. Prat.
Allan Connochie
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > Isn't that a good idea?
> > -- let's keep the good bits of the heritage!
> >
> > Why do you equate Gaelic with burning witches, then?
>
>
> I 'equate' (crap choice of words there, BTW) Gaelic with burning witches
> because they are both ancient and absolutely irrelevant remnants from
> isolated parts of this country that have no bearing whatsoever in life
> in Scotland today.
No you mean Gaelic has no relevance to you. That is a different thing.
Also your saying in another post that Scots is chocolate box twee shows
actually that you have little idea of what has and hasn't any bearing in
modern Scotland. Scots speakers are around in abundance and in many areas
it is [or in other cases it colours] the language of everyday modern people
and though Gaelic speakers are thin on the ground the language is important
to Scotland's heritage. Just why you deride your country's linguistic
diversity baffles me.
Allan
Lachie Macquarie
<uVFJ8.8272$04.2...@news.iol.ie> and displaying the suave and
sophisticated disposition of Archibald Leach, Mike MacKinnon
<mikema...@pgpower.com> sgrìobh,
green place", the Clyde is Welsh though.
Think of Dublin, it would be Blackpool, Dubh linn but in Irish it is
Baile Atha Cliath. Explain that please, toon by beside the hurdles ?
--
Lochlainn Iain Mac Guadhre, Is Rìghail Mo Dream
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > Also I should point out that they are looking to preserve Scots
> > *English* -- I presume you speak English? With a Scottish accent?
> > Would you say *that* was part of your heritage?
>
> chocolate box crap that this nation sells to the gullible tourists.
>
> Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Edinburgh, Scotland
> fax 0131-229-4820 - Columnated Ruins Domino - Mellotron M400 #996
Ah yes! You seem to have a very bad case of, *The Scottish Cringe*. Haven't
I pointed that out to you before? The fact is some Scots are ashamed of
their own heritage but can see nothing wrong with similar things in other
people's heritage. These are usually the ones who have fallen for the age
old myth that anything English or anything, *American*, has to be better
that anything Scots.
Let us examine just one of these myths. People denigrate Scottish country
and folk music but in the USA they are very proud of their Country and
Western music, their Blue Grass and so on. The truth of the matter is that
much of this USA music is directly based on the old country music of
Scotland and Ireland. Many of the old Scottish songs can be heard in USA
versions. For instance, *The Road and The Miles Tae Dundee*, and, *The
Streets of Lorrado*. So why is the USA version o.k. but the Scots version
run down by those who suffer from, *The Scottish Cringe*?
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > And what if it wasn't spoken south of Perth? Did/does Scotland stop
> > north of Perth?
>
> long ago that those of us living inthe southern half of the country
> viewed those in the north as less than animals.
>
> fax 0131-229-4820 - Columnated Ruins Domino - Mellotron M400 #996
Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins. Sae whit wad
thae luk doon thir nebs it thi Heilanders fir? Ma ain faimly ir frae thi
Borders an thi Lothians bit wi hae Fraser bluid in oor veins tae. Jist aboot
onyane wha iz onyane in the Lallans haes bluid ties tae sam clan or ithir.
Ye dinna hauf talk ae muckle richt cairtfu o dung ye daft numptie. Mind Ah
wull gie ye this. Mony o thi wad bi Inglis lukit doon thir nebs it thi
Hielanders bit thae lukit doon thir nebs it aa thi Ithir Scots iz weel wha
cam frae thi Lallans an the Borders. Div ye no ken yone maun bi hou thae
spak wi ae Pan Loaf tune o thi Inglis?
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > Isn't that a good idea?
> > -- let's keep the good bits of the heritage!
> >
> > Why do you equate Gaelic with burning witches, then?
>
>
> I 'equate' (crap choice of words there, BTW) Gaelic with burning witches
> because they are both ancient and absolutely irrelevant remnants from
> isolated parts of this country that have no bearing whatsoever in life
> in Scotland today.
>
> fax 0131-229-4820 - Columnated Ruins Domino - Mellotron M400 #996
An Ah wad spier ye ir o thi muckle opeenion ye ir ae fine example o whit wad
hae sam bearing on life in Scotland today? Ye hae iz muckle relevance tae
life in Scotland thi day iz ae Disprin in ae barrel o watter. Awa an hae ae
cure fir yir Scottish Cringe.
Madra Dubh
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > And what if it wasn't spoken south of Perth? Did/does Scotland stop
> > north of Perth?
>
> viewed those in the north as less than animals.
>
-Conway
Madra Dubh
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > Isn't that a good idea?
> > -- let's keep the good bits of the heritage!
> >
> > Why do you equate Gaelic with burning witches, then?
>
>
> I 'equate' (crap choice of words there, BTW) Gaelic with burning witches
> because they are both ancient and absolutely irrelevant remnants from
> isolated parts of this country that have no bearing whatsoever in life
> in Scotland today.
>
-COnway
Madra Dubh
"Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers" <b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
message news:adb6av$ev$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Many of the great old songs of the Southern Highlands of America can be
traced directly back to Scotland, particularly the Border area (as I was in
formed on SCS).
This should come as no surprise considering the bulk of the original
settlers in Appalachia were Scots/Irish.
-Conway
"So early one morning, this old man he arose"
"And at Molly's room door, he hastened on his clothes"
"Saying 'Rise you handsome female and married you shall be' "
"For the squire is now awaiting on the banks of the sweet Dundee"
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
He is a would be English person, (or perhaps a would be Yank). He most
certainly exhibits a very bad case of The Scottish Cringe. Such people
should be pitied for this is a sign of an inferiority complex with the
sufferer looking up to England/USA as some high plateau that they aspire to.
Unfortunately, due to them actually being inferior, they will never achieve
those dizzy heights.
How on Earth they equate being Scottish as somehow being part of a backward
nation defies all logical thinking. Have not the Scots had a much larger
influence on World Affairs than belies the small size of Scotland's
population? From the World of finance through engineering, political
leadership, medical science and various other sciences Scottish people have
left their mark upon the World. So why else could this guy be ashamed of
being a Scot? A clear case of The Scottish Cringe.
Ian Johnston
<b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
: People denigrate Scottish country
: and folk music but in the USA they are very proud of their Country and
: Western music, their Blue Grass and so on.
"They"? That's a hell of a generalisation. There's no law that says
that we must automatically love everything vaguely Scottish or be
guilty of cringing. Some Scottish folk music is brilliant and some is
crap kitsch. It's a sign of confidence in your culture to be able to
discriminate within it, and it's one hell of a sign of an inferiority
complex to be unable to believe that any part of it could be
substandard.
Me, personally, I think Jimmy Shand (senior) was brilliant, though on
the whole I prefer the Archie Duncan sound. Can't stand Andy Stewart
of the Alexander Brothers, though. Quite like single pipers at a
distance, can't stand massed pipers. Play the accordion, loathe the
Scottish Fiddle Orchestra. Like Osborne, could live without Maxwell
Davies. And so on.
Ian
Ian Johnston
wrote:
: This should come as no surprise considering the bulk of the original
: settlers in Appalachia were Scots/Irish.
My fathers postgrad research - years ago, at the University of Georgia
- was in the influence and spread of Scottish settlers in the southern
US. Perhaps the most widely known influence is in Disneyland: if the
english settlers had had more influence, tourists would have been
visiting "High Street, USA"
Ian
--
Ian Johnston
<b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
: So why else could this guy be ashamed of
: being a Scot?
There is no reason for anyone to be ashamed of being a Scot. neither
is there any reason for anyone to be proud of being a Scot.
We should only be ashamed or proud of what we, personally, have done,
achieved or created. Perhaps we can take pride in the positive things
our society has achieved, but then we must also take responsibility
for the negative: being a Scot in that sense requires acceptance of
sectarianism, racism, alcohol- and other drug abuse, widespread
political corruption and all the other ills of contemporary Scottish
society as much as it grants pride in the education system or
attachment to the National Health Service.
It's nice to know that Scots were responsible for so much in the past
(though let's not forget that Scots formed the backbone of the British
Army throughout the bloody oppression of the British Empire) but to
rely on Alexander Graham Bell for sense of personal worth is a cringe
in the extreme.
Yours idealistically,
Ian
--
Richard Tobin
In that case, it seems that Americans would be wise to adopt Mike
Dickson's view of their heritage, rather than the other way round.
Richard Tobin
Robert, \(Auld Bob\), Peffers <b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Speak for yirsel numptie. Maist o thi fowf wha bided in The Lallans haed
>mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins.
Is there anyone in Scotland who really finds it easier to read this
than the conventional spelling? Or am I right in suspecting that -
unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
(That's a serious question, by the way.)
Angus Creech
>>Speak for yirsel numptie. Maist o thi fowf wha bided in The Lallans haed
>>mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins.
>
> Is there anyone in Scotland who really finds it easier to read this
> than the conventional spelling? Or am I right in suspecting that -
> unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
> (That's a serious question, by the way.)
Reading Scottish history books will give you your the answer.. how many years
have you lived up here, Richard?
Angus
Ian Johnston
<cre...@tardis.ed.ac.uk.nospam> wrote:
:
: >>Speak for yirsel numptie. Maist o thi fowf wha bided in The Lallans haed
What history books do you have in mind, if they discuss the spelling
preferences of modern Scots? Even if some bits of the written Scots
above have some historic origins, that doesn't make them reflective of
current practice. Most English people would, I suspect, find
Shakespearean spelling(s) harder to understand than contemporary.
There seem to be two reasons for using different Scots spellings. One
is when the word doesn't exist in English - "aiblins", perhaps, or
"aefauldlie". The other appears to be used in a possibly desperate
attempt to claim that bluid and blood, or rinnin and running, or thi
and the are utterly different words in utterly different languages.
Ian
Richard Tobin
Angus Creech <cre...@tardis.ed.ac.uk.nospam> wrote:
>> Or am I right in suspecting that -
>> unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
>Reading Scottish history books will give you your the answer..
Sorry, I shouldn't have said "artificial". "Deliberately archaic"
perhaps.
Ian Johnston
wrote:
: In article <3CF934A3...@tardis.ed.ac.uk.nospam>,
: Angus Creech <cre...@tardis.ed.ac.uk.nospam> wrote:
: >> Or am I right in suspecting that -
: >> unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
:
: >Reading Scottish history books will give you your the answer..
:
: Sorry, I shouldn't have said "artificial". "Deliberately archaic"
: perhaps.
You might be over-apologising: "Lallans", unlike "Scots", is indeed an
artificial language.
Ian
Ian Johnston
Dickson) wrote:
: I'd also be thrilled to hear just how many people whose heritage it
: really *is*. And of those, how many are really interested?
That last figures I saw, for a couple of years ago, gave fewer than
ten entries for Gaelic (Native Speakers) Higher. Out of a natice
speaking population of 50,000 or so, that doesn't sound too hopeful.
Ian
--
MacRobert
Dickson) paused to reflect but wrote anyway:
>In article <adbabs$24nb$1...@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk wrote...
>
>> In that case, it seems that Americans would be wise to adopt Mike
>> Dickson's view of their heritage, rather than the other way round.
>
>'American heritage'?
>
>Jesus H Christ mainlining into his eyeballs. What an expression.
>
Not in a very good mood this week, huh?
Stephen
MacRobert
paused to reflect but wrote anyway:
>In article <adb708$16d$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>Robert, \(Auld Bob\), Peffers <b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Speak for yirsel numptie. Maist o thi fowf wha bided in The Lallans haed
>>mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins.
>
>Is there anyone in Scotland who really finds it easier to read this
>than the conventional spelling? Or am I right in suspecting that -
>unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
>(That's a serious question, by the way.)
>
Seems pretty strightforward from this side of the pond too. Why,
isn't he using conventional Scots?
Stephen
Madra Dubh
"Ian Johnston" <engs...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-dOHQyXNqEx8n@localhost...
Also the mass resettlement of Clans in Eastern North Carolina.
But the mountains are mainly Scots/Irish which was quite a switch, Lowland
Scots to the hills and Highland Scots to the flat lands.
-Conway
Madra Dubh
"MacRobert" <MacR...@th.Hoose> wrote in message
news:3cf95f3...@basic.bs.webusenet.com...
Dogs run under the porch when he's really having a tear.
-COnway
Madra Dubh
"Richard Tobin" <ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:adbanf$24pj$1...@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk...
> In article <adb708$16d$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Robert, \(Auld Bob\), Peffers <b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Speak for yirsel numptie. Maist o thi fowf wha bided in The Lallans haed
> >mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins.
>
> Is there anyone in Scotland who really finds it easier to read this
> than the conventional spelling? Or am I right in suspecting that -
> unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
> (That's a serious question, by the way.)
>
language and certainly not in any way "Artificial".
Any Lowland Scot would understand exactly what he was saying.
-Conway
Madra Dubh
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > Gaelic has complete bearing in parts of the Highlands and Islands where
> > people use it as their first language. Pillock.
>
> it as their first language', ergo it is not part of my heritage. Arse.
>
> I'd also be thrilled to hear just how many people whose heritage it
> really *is*. And of those, how many are really interested?
>
>
> And what is the real use of keeping alive something so clearly moribund
> anyway? Things tend to die out for a very good reason. Fuckwit.
>
What the hell is it to you what a Highland Gael keeps alive or lets die?
You don't have enough going right now to keep you busy that causes you to
putter around in things clearly none of your business?
-Conway
Richard Tobin
Madra Dubh <Madr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> >Speak for yirsel numptie. Maist o thi fowf wha bided in The Lallans haed
>> >mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins.
>Lad, he's not misspelling English, he's speaking another language, an old
>language and certainly not in any way "Artificial".
>Any Lowland Scot would understand exactly what he was saying.
I'm not suggesting that he's misspelling English. I'm doubting
whether Scots exists as a written language outside a circle of
enthusiasts.
How many people speak the language represented above?
How many of them *write* it? Just in the ordinary course of daily
life - you know, making a shopping list, that sort of thing. Are
there villages where people leave notes for the milkman in Lowland
Scots?
Alan Smaill
> In article <adb708$16d$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Robert, \(Auld Bob\), Peffers <b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Speak for yirsel numptie. Maist o thi fowf wha bided in The Lallans haed
> >mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins.
>
> Is there anyone in Scotland who really finds it easier to read this
> than the conventional spelling? Or am I right in suspecting that -
> unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
> (That's a serious question, by the way.)
What do you think a language is?
It's what's spoken, first and foremost, isn't it?
I point you to any of various Scots dictionaries on the topic of
writing this.
"mair nor" is a grammatical difference with standard English
you should take into account.
>
> -- Richard
>
> --
> Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.
>
> FreeBSD rules!
--
Alan Smaill email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
Division of Informatics tel: 44-131-650-2710
Edinburgh University
Alan Smaill
> In article <3CF934A3...@tardis.ed.ac.uk.nospam>,
> Angus Creech <cre...@tardis.ed.ac.uk.nospam> wrote:
> >> Or am I right in suspecting that -
> >> unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
>
> >Reading Scottish history books will give you your the answer..
>
> Sorry, I shouldn't have said "artificial". "Deliberately archaic"
> perhaps.
Spoken Scots = OK;
writing it down = archaic;
is that it?
>
> -- Richard
> --
> Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.
>
> FreeBSD rules!
--
Alan Smaill
What is "conventional Scots"?
> Stephen
Steve Hill
>
> Jesus H Christ mainlining into his eyeballs. What an expression.
I take some time out of each day I spend here in Texas to remind the
colonists of that. :-)
And I haven't been shot yet!
--sjh
``Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet.''
Alan Smaill
> In article <uEdK8.18953$UT.12...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Madra Dubh <Madr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >> >Speak for yirsel numptie. Maist o thi fowf wha bided in The Lallans haed
> >> >mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins.
>
> >Lad, he's not misspelling English, he's speaking another language, an old
> >language and certainly not in any way "Artificial".
> >Any Lowland Scot would understand exactly what he was saying.
>
> I'm not suggesting that he's misspelling English. I'm doubting
> whether Scots exists as a written language outside a circle of
> enthusiasts.
Well, your original complaint was different.
> How many people speak the language represented above?
A whole bunch.
> How many of them *write* it? Just in the ordinary course of daily
> life - you know, making a shopping list, that sort of thing. Are
> there villages where people leave notes for the milkman in Lowland
> Scots?
Not many --
why on earth do you find it a problem that someone writes it?
On soc.culture.scottish, for heaven's sake.
> -- Richard
> --
> Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.
>
> FreeBSD rules!
--
Alan Smaill
> On Fri, 31 May 2002 02:10:55, Alan Smaill <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> : engs...@ermine.ox.ac.uk (Ian Johnston) writes:
> : > To the best of my knowldge, none
> : > of my ancestors for the last two hundred years have been Gaelic
> : > speakers (though a few may have been Irish speakers)
> :
> : that's Gaelic too.
>
> You know what I mean!
Well, yes, but in this context the language group is important.
You mean, you (may have) had Gaelic speaking ancestors in the time span
you mentioned.
> : > and I think it
> : > would therefore be rather arrogant of me to claim that Gaelic is
> : > part
> : > of my heritage.
> :
> : Well, you might wonder where the name "Ian" comes from.
>
> Palestine, originally.
And this form of the word comes from where?
Why are you reluctant to admit this?
> : But there is a difference between Gaelic and these languages --
> : if no-one in Scotland speaks Italian any more, Italian will
> : continue to be spoken, as will Latvian (is that Lettish? or is it
> : Lithuanian?).
> : I don't think this is true for Gaelic.
>
> Which would be sad, but I am honestly not sure that in the grand
> scheme of things it matters terribly much. Certainly not enough for
> any element of compulsion in its maintenance.
Well, importantly, we are not talking about compulsion. I assume you
don't think that elements of Romansch should be compulsory in
Scotland.
I take it that we are talking about support for the Gaelic language within
Scotland.
> : > As for supporting Gaelic - unless a way can be found to persuade, pay
> : > or force native speakers not to seek their fortunes in London, Paris,
> : > Aberdeen or Galveston I am not sure there is much long term hope.
> :
> : That can't be the answer, and I assume you don't think it is.
> :
> : What about Gaelic medium schools in places where Gaelic speakers
> : are already present in numbers (eg Glasgow)?
> : From what I remember, some time ago, it was the largest
> : Gaelic speaking community, by absolute numbers.
>
> I'm not sure if that's teh case any more, but sure. The problem is
> still that if you have a choice, in Glasgow, between learning (or
> having your child taught) Gaelic and German, or Portugese, or
> Japanese, you have to ask which one is likely to be of the most
> personal benefit in the future. If it's Gaelic - or if you're (one is)
> willing to put the survival of Gaelic ahead of utility, then good
> luck.
First, I was suggesting at least primary schools in
which this is the language of instruction, for all topics.
I believe the Tollcross primary in Edinburgh has such a section,
I don't know what the situation is in Glasgow.
So, I want this choice to be available --
(it may well be).
Do you think the possibility of this choice should be supported
by the state?
Second, I spent a bunch time at school learning Latin, which no-one speaks;
not a great personal benefit.
Do you have the same complaint against Latin as Gaelic?
If not, why not?
> : > think I'd see the opening up of horizons for the people of Stornoway
> : > (or Glasgow, or Sindh) as quite a compensation for the loss of
> : > languages, which have often developed or survived because of the
> : > restrictions placed on the speakers.
> :
> : I'd like to know what examples you are thinking of of such development
> : and survival.
>
> Is it not near universal that when travel restrictions on groups of
> people with a local language have been removed, the language has
> tended to disappear or at least coalesce.
Hmm, when travel restrictions on English speakers disappeared,
the language spread around.
That was a local language at the time, no?
> I don't think it's
> coincidence that Gaelic as a local language has really only survived
> in the most difficult to get to bits of Scotland. For other examples
> see: a) the way French has displaced the many other languages of
> France over the past 150 years b) the fate of Cornish and Manx c) the
> dilution of regionally accented english south of the border.
It's also the case that Hebrideans have been widely travelled
for a long, long time -- I think that, like other islanders,
they have been more widely travelled than the rest of us
in Scotland.
The Scottish mercenaries (widely travelled ..)
going way back were usually from the
highland/Gaelic part of the country.
> If a
> language is only spoken by a majority of the population in a very
> small area, then as soon as people in that area get aspirations to
> live or work elsewhere it's inevitable that the language will be
> weakened.
the language will change, or atrophy, I agree;
is the "very small area" significant?
> Depopulation of the Outer Hebrides is now, what 7% per annum
> or so. Is it not a Good Thing that a child growing up in Stornoway can
> now realistically plan for a career in Southampton or Genoa, whereas a
> hundred years ago it would have been Stornoway or ... Stornoway?
Well, 100 years ago, the career was Glasgow, or Australia,
or Canada, or ... (much more than was the case in the lowlands).
Witness all the Hebridean place names around the world.
As I said above, they were more likely to see and make something
of the world than the rest of us.
> That's why I think we should see the disappearance of local languages,
> though undoubtedly sad, as a side effect of a degree of personal
> emancipation worth celebrating.
If that was the trade-off, then there is a problem.
> : Studies generally show that being brought up in a bilingual situation
> : (which is what we are talking about for such folk in Scotland) is
> : an opening of horizons in itself, an educational advantage.
>
> Oh, absolutely. Gaelic + English is undoubtedly better than Gaelic, or
> English. But is it doing an Edinburgh child (as opposed to Scottish
> culture) any favours to bring it up Gaelic/English bilingual rather
> than Spanish/English?
-- it's doing this child a favour to start with;
-- if a parent speaks Gaelic at home in Glasgow,
this is a whole different story from learning Spanish;
(if a parent speaks Spanish, that's another story).
-- they'll suss out these other languages for themselves,
in a way that would be harder without such support
earlier on.
>
> Ian
Alan Smaill
> In article <fweu1op...@puffin.dai.ed.ac.uk> sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk wrote...
>
> > Isn't that a good idea?
> > -- let's keep the good bits of the heritage!
> >
> > Why do you equate Gaelic with burning witches, then?
>
> Jesus wept on a pogo stick. Am I talking to ELIZA here?
Why does Jesus want to weep on a pogo stick?
> I 'equate' (crap choice of words there, BTW) Gaelic with burning witches
Ah, so you really do equate these practices.
> because they are both ancient and absolutely irrelevant remnants from
> isolated parts of this country that have no bearing whatsoever in life
> in Scotland today.
Would you like to tell us why you are ancient and absolutely irrelevant?
> Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Edinburgh, Scotland
> fax 0131-229-4820 - Columnated Ruins Domino - Mellotron M400 #996
--
Alan Smaill
Sounds about right.
Classical Greek is about 15.
> Ian
>
>
> --
Ian Johnston
: engs...@ermine.ox.ac.uk (Ian Johnston) writes:
> That last figures I saw, for a couple of years ago, gave fewer than
: > ten entries for Gaelic (Native Speakers) Higher. Out of a native
: > speaking population of 50,000 or so, that doesn't sound too hopeful.
:
: Sounds about right.
:
: Classical Greek is about 15.
Comhairle nan Eilean Siar has about 2000 secondary school pupils.
That's about 400 per year. Having around 2% of a year group choose to
take Gaelic (Native Speakers) Higher (OK, not all those 400 will be
native speakers, but that will be more than compensated for by schools
elsewhere in the Highlands and Islands) suggests either that the
Higher is not being pushed or that the children do not see the
qualification as particularly useful. Neither seems particularly
hopeful for the future of the language.
Ian
Ian Johnston
wrote:
: What the hell is it to you what a Highland Gael keeps alive or lets die?
So you are saying, are you, that all the subsidies paid by non-Gaels
to support the language should be ended, since it's none of our
business whether it lives or dies?
Ian
Ian Johnston
: engs...@ermine.ox.ac.uk (Ian Johnston) writes:
:: > : Well, you might wonder where the name "Ian" comes from.
: >
: > Palestine, originally.
:
: And this form of the word comes from where?
:
: Why are you reluctant to admit this?
I think looking at origins of my name is a pretty desperate attempt to
give me a Gaelic heritage. It's much more significant, surely, that my
name is one of the many biblically based ones in use in Scotland than
that it is also a Gaelic version. Come to that, I have no idea whether
the "Ian"'s in my father's family - which comes from Dumfriesshire a
few generations ago - is a version of teh Gaelic Iain, the Borders Ion
or even the Manx Ean / Yuan.
: I take it that we are talking about support for the Gaelic language within
: Scotland.
Yup. And while there is an excellent case for ensuring that people
brought up in Gaelic can continue to use it in their dealings with the
state, it's the "within Scotland" which is the problem. Nowadays
people move around as a matter of course in a way which has changed
very much from a hundred, fifty or even twenty years ago. Hardly any
of my adult friends live where they were brought up, and that mobility
inevitably makes it hard or impossible for highly localized languages
or dialects to survive. And yes, I regret the passing of Gaelic, and
the watering down of Glaswegian, but I honestly don't think anything
can be done about it unless people's mobility is voluntarily or
compulsorily reduced.
: First, I was suggesting at least primary schools in
: which this is the language of instruction, for all topics.
:
: I believe the Tollcross primary in Edinburgh has such a section,
: I don't know what the situation is in Glasgow.
I believe Glasgow, too, has Gaelic medium schools. Used to be Sir John
Maxwell, just down the road for me, at primary, but I think that's
changed. Hillhead was the Gaelic medium secondary last time I looked,
a few years ago. Before that it was Bellahouston, where my father
taught for many years.
: So, I want this choice to be available --
: (it may well be).
:
: Do you think the possibility of this choice should be supported
: by the state?
Up to a point. Some canmpaigners have demanded Gaelic medium education
available as a right throughout Scotland - I don't think I would go
along with that except in areas of significant Gaelic speaking
population - Stornoway, Glasgow, Edinburgh and so on.
: Second, I spent a bunch time at school learning Latin, which no-one speaks;
: not a great personal benefit.
:
: Do you have the same complaint against Latin as Gaelic?
You are - perhaps unintentionally - misrepresenting my position
entirely. I have no complaint against Gaelic. If anyone wants to speak
Gaelic, or teach their children Gaelic then I say, wholeheartedly
"Good luck to you". I am not unhappy about paying modest subsidies to
make Gaelic medium TV (for example) financially viable.
What I do have are two doubts:
1) I doubt that there is much anyone anywhere can do to stop the decay
of smaller languages, and I think that may not be a wholly Bad Thing,
since the reasons for the decay - increased opportunity and mobility -
are Good Things
2) I doubt whether Gaelic is the best choice of second language for
children outside Gaelic speaking areas, for while it brings the
intellectual and cognitive abilities of bilingualism it is probably
less useful, for most children, than larger languages.
Latin is a fascinating and academically worthwhile subject. Like
Gaelic, though, I reckon it's less use to children than French,
German, Japanese, Spanish or Italian. The education system seems to
agree with me!
: > Is it not near universal that when travel restrictions on groups of
: > people with a local language have been removed, the language has
: > tended to disappear or at least coalesce.
:
: Hmm, when travel restrictions on English speakers disappeared,
: the language spread around.
:
: That was a local language at the time, no?
OK, special exceptions for languages used in colonial expansion!
: Well, 100 years ago, the career was Glasgow, or Australia,
: or Canada, or ... (much more than was the case in the lowlands).
:
: Witness all the Hebridean place names around the world.
But very few non-Scotiish Gaelic speaking communities.
Ian
Angus Creech
> I'm not suggesting that he's misspelling English. I'm doubting
> whether Scots exists as a written language outside a circle of
> enthusiasts.
That's not quite what you were saying before..
If "exists" includes history, then it certainly was - the language of commerce
and state, I believe. Unfortunately, it has sent to the back of the class by
the modern media, who as a London-centric oligarchy have little time for the
seemingly erstwhile tongue of the Scots. These enthusiasts, as you call them,
quite rightly strive against this cultural bias to keep Scots and Scottishness
alive.
But why? - There are many things not easily conveyed without a Scottish turn
of phrase, and more importantly, it is a rather more appealing than the
prospect of embracing the ensuing Englishness wholly. By all means a culture
should evolve and adapt; but not to be erased and replaced completely.
Angus
Angus Creech
> Is this process still happening?
>
> Er no. And no, the SNP isn't conducting the same process at all.
>
> Let us *move on*.
Spot the Labourite. "Progressive" politics first, eh?
Angus
Ian Johnston
<cre...@tardis.ed.ac.uk.nospam> wrote:
: These enthusiasts, as you call them,
: quite rightly strive against this cultural bias to keep Scots and Scottishness
: alive.
Are you suggesting that "Scottishness" would not exist without the
particular form of written Scots which was used here?
Ian
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
"Madra Dubh" <Madr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:vr9K8.17154$LC3.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers" <b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:adb6av$ev$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
> > news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
> > wrote...
> > >
> > > > Also I should point out that they are looking to preserve Scots
> > > > *English* -- I presume you speak English? With a Scottish accent?
> > > > Would you say *that* was part of your heritage?
> > >
> > > No more than tartan, shortbread, Andy Stewart and all the other twee
> > > chocolate box crap that this nation sells to the gullible tourists.
> > >
> > > Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Edinburgh, Scotland
> > > fax 0131-229-4820 - Columnated Ruins Domino - Mellotron M400 #996
> > Ah yes! You seem to have a very bad case of, *The Scottish Cringe*.
> Haven't
> > I pointed that out to you before? The fact is some Scots are ashamed of
> > their own heritage but can see nothing wrong with similar things in
other
> > people's heritage. These are usually the ones who have fallen for the
age
> > old myth that anything English or anything, *American*, has to be better
> > that anything Scots.
> >
> > Let us examine just one of these myths. People denigrate Scottish
country
> > and folk music but in the USA they are very proud of their Country and
> > Western music, their Blue Grass and so on. The truth of the matter is
that
> > much of this USA music is directly based on the old country music of
> > Scotland and Ireland. Many of the old Scottish songs can be heard in USA
> > versions. For instance, *The Road and The Miles Tae Dundee*, and, *The
> > Streets of Lorrado*. So why is the USA version o.k. but the Scots
version
> > run down by those who suffer from, *The Scottish Cringe*?
>
> Many of the great old songs of the Southern Highlands of America can be
> traced directly back to Scotland, particularly the Border area (as I was
in
> formed on SCS).
> This should come as no surprise considering the bulk of the original
> settlers in Appalachia were Scots/Irish.
> "So early one morning, this old man he arose"
> "And at Molly's room door, he hastened on his clothes"
> "Saying 'Rise you handsome female and married you shall be' "
> "For the squire is now awaiting on the banks of the sweet Dundee"
>
>
>
Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
Yes I was just using the facts as an example of the woolly thinking of those
who suffer from, *The Scottish Cringe*. Those who would praise up the USA
version of a particular song but consign the Scottish version to the bin as
being out of date/kitsch/inferior or whatever other excuse they can think up
to, *pit doon, anything Scottish. The real tragedy is that these poor people
genuinely think they are inferior to the English, (or indeed any other
race). It seems to be beyond them to understand these other countries that
they admire so much are all proud of their own tradition and heritage. It is
only the Scottish traditions and heritage they see as being backward. Good
grief, being proud of your heritage and tradition does not make you a less
modern nation for we all live in the present but can still be proud of our
past. I wonder if these people understand what damage they do to their own
country?
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots for Sincerely),
Auld Bob Peffers,
b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
Web Site, *The Eck's Files*
http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
My Auld Grannie used to say, *Ae chinge iz as guid as ae holiday*.
Ian Johnston
<b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
: Those who would praise up the USA
: version of a particular song but consign the Scottish version to the bin as
: being out of date/kitsch/inferior or whatever other excuse they can think up
: to, *pit doon, anything Scottish.
Go on, give an example of someone doing that on this thread.
People who are proud and confident about their culture are able to
reject the dross.
Ian
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 19:47:53, "Robert, \(Auld Bob\), Peffers"
> <b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> : So why else could this guy be ashamed of
> : being a Scot?
>
> There is no reason for anyone to be ashamed of being a Scot. neither
> is there any reason for anyone to be proud of being a Scot.
>
snip
> sectarianism, racism, alcohol- and other drug abuse, widespread
> political corruption and all the other ills of contemporary Scottish
> society
Each and every negative example you quote is not only an example of modern
Scottish life but also an example of contemporary life in every.
*civilised*, nation under the Sun.
> as much as it grants pride in the education system or
> attachment to the National Health Service.
>
> It's nice to know that Scots were responsible for so much in the past
> (though let's not forget that Scots formed the backbone of the British
> Army throughout the bloody oppression of the British Empire) but to
> rely on Alexander Graham Bell for sense of personal worth is a cringe
> in the extreme.
The Scots may well have formed the backbone of the army of the British
Empire, (if you count cannon fodder as backbone), but the leaders, (with
some notable exceptions), were mainly the product of the English
establishment. Indeed most of the, *notable exceptions*, were also the
produce of the English Public School System and, *The playing fields Of
Eaton*.
>
> Yours idealistically,
>
> Ian
> --
>
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 19:12:18, "Robert, \(Auld Bob\), Peffers"
> <b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> : People denigrate Scottish country
> : and folk music but in the USA they are very proud of their Country and
> : Western music, their Blue Grass and so on.
>
> that we must automatically love everything vaguely Scottish or be
> guilty of cringing. Some Scottish folk music is brilliant and some is
> crap kitsch. It's a sign of confidence in your culture to be able to
> discriminate within it, and it's one hell of a sign of an inferiority
> complex to be unable to believe that any part of it could be
> substandard.
>
> Me, personally, I think Jimmy Shand (senior) was brilliant, though on
> the whole I prefer the Archie Duncan sound. Can't stand Andy Stewart
> of the Alexander Brothers, though. Quite like single pipers at a
> distance, can't stand massed pipers. Play the accordion, loathe the
> Scottish Fiddle Orchestra. Like Osborne, could live without Maxwell
> Davies. And so on.
>
> Ian
>
>
Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
You miss the whole point. The people I speak about suffer, *The Scottish
Cringe*. This is characterised by them denigrating, *Everything*, that is
Scottish for no other good reason than it is Scottish. This has nothing to
do with normal people's discrimination of any particular Scottish thing on
the grounds of normal good taste and personal preference.
Ian Johnston
<b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
:
: "Ian Johnston" <engs...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
: > sectarianism, racism, alcohol- and other drug abuse, widespread
: > political corruption and all the other ills of contemporary Scottish
: > society
:
: Each and every negative example you quote is not only an example of modern
: Scottish life but also an example of contemporary life in every.
: *civilised*, nation under the Sun.
That is true. However, in all the five specific example I gave, we are
significantly worse than our neighbours south of the border. That
doesn't mean that we are bad (or worse) people, but we should take
them into account when considering what it is to be Scotish, as well
as Scottie dugs, tartan tins or shortbread, Grannie's hielan hame and
the rest.
Ian
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
"Richard Tobin" <ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:adbanf$24pj$1...@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk...
> In article <adb708$16d$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> >mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins.
>
> than the conventional spelling? Or am I right in suspecting that -
> unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
> (That's a serious question, by the way.)
>
>
> --
> Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the
headers.
>
> FreeBSD rules!
Oh Aye! Mony o iz hae aye spak thi Scots Leid, an nou whan wi dinna hae thi
dwang o thi British establishment's abuise o thi bairns in the scuil room bi
dominies wi muckle Lochgellies, wi kin mak ae stert tae scrieve an scance
wir ain lead iz weel.
Sad tae say Ah gaed through ae muckle pairt o ma ain life never seein the
Scots Leid scrievit doon excep in ane or twa buiks bi sam o thi auld farn
owthors. Nou Ah hiv haed tae dae ae wee puckle tuning o Ma spellin an
gremmar tae tak accoont o sam kin o stannerts bit nae afu muckle ava.
Owersettin, (Translation).
Oh Yes! Many of us always spoke our own language and, now we are not
repressed by the authorities punishing our children in the schoolroom, we
can make a start to read and write our own language as well.
Sad to say I went through the greater part of my life never seeing the Scots
language written down, except in one or two books by old authors. Now I have
to make some small adjustments to my spelling and grammar, to take account
of standardisation, but not a great deal at all.
Ian Johnston
<b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
: The people I speak about suffer, *The Scottish
: Cringe*. This is characterised by them denigrating, *Everything*, that is
: Scottish for no other good reason than it is Scottish.
But no one here has denigrated everything Scottish, per se. Maybe I
misread you, but I thought you were saying that tartan tins of
shortbread and the rest had to be loved because they were Scottish,
and that anyone who didn't love them wasn't a true Scot.
It's no more my right to define your personal and national identity
than it is your right to do the same for me or anyone else. There are
some people in Scotladn who see themselves as Scottish above all else.
Fine. There are some who see themselves are primarily British. Fine.
Or European. Fine. Or Celts. Fine.
There are some people who love the Alexander Brothers, and think
they're a peak of Scottish culture. Fine. Others go for Carver. Fine.
Walter Scott? Fine. Jeff Torrington? Fine. The Broons? Fine. Reverend
Whatsisname Skating on Duddingston Loch? Fine.
There are Scots who loathe everything they see as "high" culture and
there are Scots who loathe everything they see as "popular" culture.
Being Scottish no more obliges you to like Andrew Rankine and his
Scottish Country Dance Band than being English obliges you to like
clog dancing, or being German obliges you to love Oompah. There are
Americans who detest country and western and Russians who can't stand
the Balalaika.
Ian
--
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 20:48:35, Angus Creech
> <cre...@tardis.ed.ac.uk.nospam> wrote:
snip
> What history books do you have in mind, if they discuss the spelling
> preferences of modern Scots? Even if some bits of the written Scots
> above have some historic origins, that doesn't make them reflective of
> current practice. Most English people would, I suspect, find
> Shakespearean spelling(s) harder to understand than contemporary.
>
Your point, above, only confirms that the written Scots is also a living
language and is also evolving like every other living language.
> There seem to be two reasons for using different Scots spellings. One
> is when the word doesn't exist in English - "aiblins", perhaps, or
> "aefauldlie".
The language is not English and therefore the words you mention here are not
English words.
> The other appears to be used in a possibly desperate
> attempt to claim that bluid and blood, or rinnin and running, or thi
> and the are utterly different words in utterly different languages.
>
> Ian
>
There is no desperate attempt do anything of the sort for, again, the Scots
Language is not English. Thus it has no need to be desperate about anything.
You are making the, (desperate English), classic error in assuming English
as the original and the Scots being copied from it. This is not the case as
the two languages grew from similar roots but were/are contemporary with
each other. By your kind of woolly thinking the Scots would be equally right
to claiming the English are adopting different spellings from the Scots in a
desperate attempt to distance itself from Scots spelling, (unless, of
course, you can prove the English version existed before the Scots version).
If you just accept the truth that both languages are rooted in the old Laich
German, (Low German), and were contemporary with each other you will see
that neither can claim precedence over the other. Just think on it that the
old Brythonic language was spoken as far North as Strathclyde. As a matter
of fact many Scots words and phrases are actually closer to the original
roots than their English equivalents which have suffered more dilution from
other languages. So tell me at what point did English become the standard
language? Remember that King James was Scottish and spoke Scottish. When he
went south is it reasonable to think that King would have to adjust his
language to suit his courtiers or, much more likely, that his court
accommodated the Kings Language. However that English language had little in
common with the Estuary English language adopted by the Monarchy of today.
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 21:20:35, ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
> wrote:
>
> : In article <3CF934A3...@tardis.ed.ac.uk.nospam>,
> : Angus Creech <cre...@tardis.ed.ac.uk.nospam> wrote:
> : >> Or am I right in suspecting that -
> : >> unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
> : >Reading Scottish history books will give you your the answer..
> :
> : Sorry, I shouldn't have said "artificial". "Deliberately archaic"
> : perhaps.
>
> artificial language.
>
> Ian
Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
The word Lallans only means lowland and Lowlanders have always had their own
distinctive language that has always contained, as every living language
has, its own dialects. If you mean the Language used by Christopher Grieve,
and his contemporaries, then there was indeed a certain amount of
standardisation of that Lowlands language but that did not make it an
artificial language any more than the standardisation of English spellings
and grammar makes English artificial. There are numerous examples of
alternative spellings in English too. Furthermore all languages are changed
by their users. For example the present English language seems intent on
adopting the phrase, *Gridlock*, to describe a traffic jam and this in spite
of the fact the English road system really has no grid system to become
locked. Does this make English an artificial language. I think not.
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers
"MacRobert" <MacR...@th.Hoose> wrote in message
news:3cf96032...@basic.bs.webusenet.com...
> On 1 Jun 2002 20:27:27 GMT, ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
> paused to reflect but wrote anyway:
>
> >In article <adb708$16d$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> >>mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins.
> >
> >Is there anyone in Scotland who really finds it easier to read this
> >unlike spoken Scots - this is a completely artificial language?
> >
>
> isn't he using conventional Scots?
>
>
Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
Define, *Conventional Scots*.
Ian Johnston
<b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
:
: "Ian Johnston" <engs...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
:
: > There seem to be two reasons for using different Scots spellings. One
: > is when the word doesn't exist in English - "aiblins", perhaps, or
: > "aefauldlie".
:
: The language is not English and therefore the words you mention here are not
: English words.
Yes. I meant to convey just a hint of that with the phrase "doesn't
exist in English".
: You are making the, (desperate English), classic error in assuming English
: as the original and the Scots being copied from it.
No I am not. And I really can't be bothered with that whole argument
again.
: By your kind of woolly thinking the Scots would be equally right
: to claiming the English are adopting different spellings from the Scots in a
: desperate attempt to distance itself from Scots spelling, (unless, of
: course, you can prove the English version existed before the Scots version).
Nope. I am only making the claim in a few cases. Some writers of Scots
here write the definite article as "thi". Why? "Because that's hoe it
was spelt three hundred years ago" is not a good answer, unless these
people insist on writing english as Shakespeare did.
: If you just accept the truth that both languages are rooted in the old Laich
: German, (Low German), and were contemporary with each other you will see
: that neither can claim precedence over the other.
I have never doubted that. But I would claim that the two languages
have a hell of a lot of words in common, and that there is no
particular reason for them not to use spellings in common as well.
But it really doesn't bother me that much. You write your Scots how
you want and I'll write my Scots how I want.
Regards,
Ian
bogus address
> Many of the great old songs of the Southern Highlands of America can be
> traced directly back to Scotland, particularly the Border area (as I was
> informed on SCS).
Some were, but probably more were English. Look at Sharp's collections
from Appalachia or Bronson's collection of tunes for the Child ballads
to get an idea. In some cases the ultimate origin of these songs is
certainly Scottish, but the version known in America came through
England; they can't be traced *directly* back to Scotland as you claim.
It *does* seem to be true that Scottish songs spread beyond Scotland,
in England and Ireland as well as America, to a degree disproportionate
to the number of Scots either abroad or at home, but that's about as far
as it goes.
> This should come as no surprise considering the bulk of the original
> settlers in Appalachia were Scots/Irish.
Then how come most of the names from there you see listed as informants
for folk song collectors are English? (Of the others, honest-to-god
Irish names like Fitzgerald are more common than Scots ones).
========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
bogus address
>>> Well, you might wonder where the name "Ian" comes from.
>> Palestine, originally.
> And this form of the word comes from where?
Nineteenth century romanticism. It's not an ancient Gaelic name.
"Eoin" is, but that one's down there with "Osama" in the baby-name
league.
There is a website somewhere run by an SCA person that goes into
some detail about names-that-aren't-as-authentically-Celtic-as-you-
might-think. "Fiona" is the classic one (made up out of thin air
around 1880).
bogus address
>> Frankly, it just about did. You're forgetting that it wasn't all that
>> long ago that those of us living inthe southern half of the country
>> viewed those in the north as less than animals.
> Yes, and before that both Highlander and Lowlander fought alongside
> each other for the independence of their country - the estrangement
> of the two was a slow process, taking several centuries.
For much of the Middle Ages, there was no unified "country" of
Scotland. There was the Lowlands, there was Galloway, there was
the Highlands and Islands, and there was the Norse realm of
Caithness and the Northern Isles. Any one of these could take
sides with or against any of the others, with or against England
(once England itself was unified, this happened centuries before
it did in Scotland). Most of the time the Lowland kingdoms were
in some sort of hostile standoff with England, but whether they'd
h ave Galloway and the Highlands with them depended on the current
political interests of those regions. The Highlands only became
part of Scotland in the reign of James IV and managed a serious
armed rising for its independence as late as 1545, taking advantage
of Lowland Scotland's defeat at the hands of Henry VIII.
And this continued long after the Middle Ages; in the reign of
Charles II the Highland Host pillaged and terrorized Galloway
to assist the English administration (with considerably bloodier
results than anything Cumberland's troops did after Culloden).
Alan Hardie
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
wrote...
>
> > Gaelic has complete bearing in parts of the Highlands and Islands where
> > people use it as their first language. Pillock.
>
> I don't live in the 'parts of the Highlands and Islands where people use
> it as their first language', ergo it is not part of my heritage. Arse.
I didn't say it was part of your personal heritage, fool. You said that
Gaelic had "no bearing whatsoever in life in Scotland today." I pointed out
that it did have a bearing to those who spoke it and that you were a
pillock. I was correct on both points.
>
> I'd also be thrilled to hear just how many people whose heritage it
> really *is*. And of those, how many are really interested?
>
> Is it a part of yours?
I don't speak a word of it. But unlike a fool like you, I am not going to
start denigrating a language (and by extension the people who use the
language) simply because I don't speak it.
>
> And what is the real use of keeping alive something so clearly moribund
> anyway? Things tend to die out for a very good reason. Fuckwit.
>
That's wholly different argument as to whether Gaelic has any bearing on
life in Scotland today. However, the reason that Gaelic is spoken by so few
is because upwards of a third of the population of the Highlands and Islands
were either forcibly evicted or were forced by poverty to become economic
migrants during the course of the 19th C and those who stayed were forbidden
to speak their own language in school. You would find this in history books
although I suspect that reading history is beyond you.
Angus Creech
> Are you suggesting that "Scottishness" would not exist without the
> particular form of written Scots which was used here?
Not at all.
Angus
Angus Creech
> Go on, give an example of someone doing that on this thread.
>
> People who are proud and confident about their culture are able to
> reject the dross.
MD seems to be drawing a parallel between Scottish culture and tourist
memorobilia.
Angus
Angus Creech
> Er...yes it is. It's English with a smattering of localised expressions
> and absurdly and contrivedly spelled out in a phonetic manner not unlike
> a spoken version of 'Finnegans Wake'. Except that hardly anyone speaks
> it.
Are you berating the intent or the implementation?
Really Mike, to accuse myself of spurious statements and then you come out
with this - Scots as a language is a descendant of Old English; that puts it
at around 1000 years old.
However, what modern Scots is, I have no idea..
Angus
Madra Dubh
>
> "Madra Dubh" <Madr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:2zdK8.18936$UT.12...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> > "Ian Johnston" <engs...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
> > news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-dOHQyXNqEx8n@localhost...
> > > On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 19:41:15, "Madra Dubh" <Madr...@worldnet.att.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > : This should come as no surprise considering the bulk of the original
> > > : settlers in Appalachia were Scots/Irish.
> > >
> > > My fathers postgrad research - years ago, at the University of Georgia
> > > - was in the influence and spread of Scottish settlers in the southern
> > > US. Perhaps the most widely known influence is in Disneyland: if the
> > > english settlers had had more influence, tourists would have been
> > > visiting "High Street, USA"
> > >
> > Fort Oglethorpe being a prime example.
> > Also the mass resettlement of Clans in Eastern North Carolina.
> > But the mountains are mainly Scots/Irish which was quite a switch,
Lowland
> > Scots to the hills and Highland Scots to the flat lands.
> > -Conway
> >
> Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
> My Auld Grannie used to say, *Ae chinge iz as guid as ae holiday*.
> --
The Appalachians are much like the Scottish Highlands (except we got trees).
Eastern Carolina is low, flat, and hotter than blue blazes.
-Conway
Madra Dubh
"bogus address" <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:93...@purr.demon.co.uk...
>
> > Many of the great old songs of the Southern Highlands of America can be
> > traced directly back to Scotland, particularly the Border area (as I was
> > informed on SCS).
>
> Some were, but probably more were English. Look at Sharp's collections
> from Appalachia or Bronson's collection of tunes for the Child ballads
> to get an idea. In some cases the ultimate origin of these songs is
> certainly Scottish, but the version known in America came through
> England; they can't be traced *directly* back to Scotland as you claim.
You're wrong.
Note "Border Area", the main source of tunes attributable to the
Scots/Irish.
The English, OTOH, are much too busy Morris Dacing to spread any tunes
about.
In any event, Saxons, having horrible voices, mostly grunt and seldom sing.
> It *does* seem to be true that Scottish songs spread beyond Scotland,
> in England and Ireland as well as America, to a degree disproportionate
> to the number of Scots either abroad or at home, but that's about as far
> as it goes.
>
>
> > This should come as no surprise considering the bulk of the original
> > settlers in Appalachia were Scots/Irish.
>
> Then how come most of the names from there you see listed as informants
> for folk song collectors are English? (Of the others, honest-to-god
> Irish names like Fitzgerald are more common than Scots ones).
Do a search for typical Scots/Irish names.
Enroute you will discover the bulk of the Scots/Irish what went to NI and
thence to America came from Lowland Scotland and Northern England (the
Border Area again).
And "Fitzgerald" is an honest-to-god Norman name.
-Conway
Madra Dubh
> In article <uEdK8.18953$UT.12...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Madra Dubh <Madr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >> >Speak for yirsel numptie. Maist o thi fowf wha bided in The Lallans
haed
> >> >mair nor ae puckle o Hieland bluid rinnin through thir veins.
>
> >language and certainly not in any way "Artificial".
> >Any Lowland Scot would understand exactly what he was saying.
>
> I'm not suggesting that he's misspelling English. I'm doubting
> whether Scots exists as a written language outside a circle of
> enthusiasts.
Auld Bob, would you mind enlightening this fellow?
> How many people speak the language represented above?
> How many of them *write* it? Just in the ordinary course of daily
> life - you know, making a shopping list, that sort of thing. Are
> there villages where people leave notes for the milkman in Lowland
> Scots?
The point here is an effort is being made to preserve the language.
The same effort that's being made to preserve Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic,
Welsh, Cornish, and Cherokee.
When a cultre loses its native language it loses more than just the ability
to converse without being understood by the Sassanach.
-Conway
Angus Creech
> For many people, that is exactly what 'Scottish culture' is all about.
Most of whom are not domiciles, but tourists ?
Angus
MacRobert
<b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> paused to reflect but wrote anyway:
>Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
>You miss the whole point. The people I speak about suffer, *The Scottish
>Cringe*. This is characterised by them denigrating, *Everything*, that is
>Scottish for no other good reason than it is Scottish. This has nothing to
>do with normal people's discrimination of any particular Scottish thing on
>the grounds of normal good taste and personal preference.
>--
Actually, I wonder how much of an overlap there is between what you
are seeing as Scottish Cringe and what some Scots consider kitsch. If
there is an undercurrent of resentment of the way Americans
appropriate certain sorts of things as "their heritage" (and I believe
there is), then Scots who fall into the "overlap" are *not*
denigrating things Scottish, they are in fact defending things
*really* Scottish.
Not to deny that there is a population of "cringers" but simply to
differentiate among that group. Ian Johnson seems to qualify as a
"defender", as does Mike MacKinnon, Ian O and perhaps Mike Dickson.
At least from my perspective they do.
Stephen
MacRobert
paused to reflect but wrote anyway:
>On Sun, 2 Jun 2002 00:31:13, "Madra Dubh" <Madr...@worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
>
>: What the hell is it to you what a Highland Gael keeps alive or lets die?
>
>So you are saying, are you, that all the subsidies paid by non-Gaels
>to support the language should be ended, since it's none of our
>business whether it lives or dies?
>
>Ian
I don't think you can use his emotional, rhetorical question as a
basis for that assumption.
Stephen
Madra Dubh
> On Sun, 2 Jun 2002 00:31:13, "Madra Dubh" <Madr...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> : What the hell is it to you what a Highland Gael keeps alive or lets die?
>
> So you are saying, are you, that all the subsidies paid by non-Gaels
> to support the language should be ended, since it's none of our
> business whether it lives or dies?
Follow the chain to its logical end and dispense with all cultural subsidies
then.
But to be so selective as to suggest any public aid to keep Gaelic alive be
done away with whilst keeping such things as Midlands Basket Weaving well
endowed smacks of bigotry.
-Conway
Madra Dubh
"Mike Dickson" <mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk> wrote in message
news:CheetahPRO_v...@blackcat.demon.co.uk...
> Madr...@worldnet.att.net wrote...
>
> > What the hell is it to you what a Highland Gael keeps alive or lets
> > you to putter around in things clearly none of your business?
>
> I was talking about the principle of keeping it alive. As if blethering
> about this in a newsgroup will have any effect on it one way or the
> other...
It allows a bit of venting, it does.
> They can do what they like, but they can pay for it all themselves.
>
How much of the National budget is set aside for the preservation of Scots
Gaelic and how much is raised by individual contributions.
In other words, how big a problem is it, this national dole to the Gaels?
-Conway
Norman Dryden
MacRobert wrote in message <3cfa5d08...@basic.bs.webusenet.com>...
life support system, is probably no longer relevant, and should be left to
survive or die on its own merits.
Norman