Don't buy stuff fromt he Silicon Group
Anup Pradhan
Their components are cheap, they are not honest and they
don't give a shit about the customer after they steal
your money.
big m
another sad individual who no doubt could not fit the components together he
had bought and decided that because of this the silicon group were a bunch
of thieves.
Anup Pradhan wrote in message <6l1n70$a...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>...
Anup Pradhan
"big m" <m.ga...@cableinet.co.uk> writes:
>another sad individual who no doubt could not fit the components together he
>had bought and decided that because of this the silicon group were a bunch
>of thieves.
Wrong, components for the machine were already assembled. The
motherboard was defective.
Callum Sword
Anup Pradhan wrote:
> Their components are cheap, they are not honest and they
> don't give a shit about the customer after they steal
> your money.
Someone else who hasn't heard the words "slander" and "libel".
--
mailto:cal...@owl.co.uk http://www.owl.co.uk
A Brown
a...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( Anup Pradhan) writes about Silicon:
>Their components are cheap, they are not honest and they
>don't give a shit about the customer after they steal
>your money.
I write about everywhere else:
Their components are expensive, they are technically inept and do not
know what they are talking about, and you end up paying for the support
which all their numpty customers use when they try to plug their PCI
cards into the SIMM slots, even if you never actually use it yourself.
GtB
Anup Pradhan
Callum Sword <Callum...@owl.co.uk> writes:
>Someone else who hasn't heard the words "slander" and "libel".
Why do much anamosity towards me? I'm simply trying to warn
students such as myself about this company.
ben
Callum Sword <Callum...@owl.co.uk> writes:
>
>
>Anup Pradhan wrote:
>
>> Their components are cheap, they are not honest and they
>> don't give a shit about the customer after they steal
>> your money.
>
>
--
,,, ____ ___ _ __________________________
(o o) / __/ /__ / | / b...@warlow.demon.co.uk
_____o00__( )__00o_______/___/_/____/ |_/ Scotland
A Brown
a...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( Anup Pradhan) writes:
>Callum Sword <Callum...@owl.co.uk> writes:
>>Someone else who hasn't heard the words "slander" and "libel".
>Why do much anamosity towards me? I'm simply trying to warn
>students such as myself about this company.
Because of the way you did it. From what I gather, you bought a PC from
Silicon and the motherboard was bust - hey, it happens. Then again maybe
you should have asked to see the PC working in the shop...whatever.
How about you take it back and say "The motherboard on this PC I just
bought from you is bust" - if my past experience is anything to go by
they will check it in their technical dept. and if it doesn't work then
they'll replace it.
I have never had any problems with getting stuff that doesn't work
replaced at any computer retailer in Edinburgh. In fact I have not even
had trouble exchanging items at Silicon that DO work, but are not right
for my machine due to my own numpty incompetance - i.e I bought EDO
SIMMs for a 486. Found out they didn't work on a 486, took 'em back,
explained the problem and the exchanged them for standard ones straight
away.
Your original post the the equivalent of me saying "I bought 6 eggs from
Tesco, one was cracked when I got it home - don't shop at Tesco they are
dishonest thieves!"
These things happen...
GtB
Dougie Richardson
On 2 Jun 1998 20:27:12 GMT, a...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( Anup Pradhan)
wrote:
>
>Their components are cheap, they are not honest and they
>don't give a shit about the customer after they steal
>your money.
Well, perhaps we should know the full story. Mr. Pradhan, or is it
Micheal, bought a P.C. from Silicon group, and the motherboard was
defective. Rather than trouble himself to bring it back and have it
repaired under warranty, he decided to open up the case and have a
poke around in there, this is despite getting a 'cmos battery low'
warning message, a message which is obvious to anyone who knows
anything about P.C.'s means either the battery or motherboard is
faulty, what was he going to do, replace the battery with one he had
lying around the house. All the systems Silicon sell have a warranty
label fitted which breaks if you open the case, why? because too many
people open them up and poke around in there and break things or
disconnect cables etc. and them come in and say "oh, I just booted it
up and it doesnt work now" which means an engineer has to waste time
reconnecting cables or reseating dilsodged video cards and then has to
process all the paperwork that has to be done. "But what if I want to
add more memory, or fit another card in the system", I hear you ask.
Simple, bring it into Silicon, and a trained and qualified engineer
will open up the case and physically fit the item for you, and then
reseal the system and make sure it all works. All you have to do is
install the relevant drivers and software, and no, you dont have to
buy the item from Silicon to have this done, they'll do it no matter
where you bought the extra kit from. yes, some of the componenets are
cheap, thats why they cost so little to buy, but it doesnt
automatically follow that they are crap, hey mr. Pradhan, or Micheal
or whatever your name is, if you dont want cheap kit, then don't buy
the cheapest P.C, the company offers, spend some more money. Nobody
stole your money, you bought a P.C. Nobody put a gun to your head and
made you buy it. As for being honest, I fail to see how you draw that
conclusion, despite the fact that you deliberately and knowingly broke
the warranty agreement with the company, rendering yourself liable to
pay for the labour involved in any repairs during the warranty period,
the company very generously decided not to charge you for the labour
this time around. Perhaps when you come in to collect your P.C. from
the technical support department you would care to tell us to our
faces that we are dishonest thieves.
Jack Campin
do...@doogs.prestel.co.uk (Dougie Richardson) writes:
> Mr. Pradhan, or is it Micheal, bought a P.C. from Silicon group, and
> the motherboard was defective. Rather than trouble himself to bring
> it back and have it repaired under warranty, he decided to open up
> the case and have a poke around in there, this is despite getting a
> 'cmos battery low' warning message, a message which is obvious to
> anyone who knows anything about P.C.'s means either the battery or
> motherboard is faulty
What that warning means to any rational human being is that the battery is
flat and needs replaced.
I guess that category leaves out people fool enough to buy Intel/Microsoft
machines.
What's the warning for when the disk is full? "Monitor is about to turn
into a hairy aubergine"?
If you sell machines with misleading diagnostics built into the firmware,
you have to live with the consequences of your customers being misled.
--> email to "jc" at the site in the "From:" line: mail to "jack" bounces <--
Jack Campin * 2 Haddington Place, Edinburgh EH7 4AE, Scotland * 0131 556 5272
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Anup Pradhan
Ok point taken, my appologies to the company. My languages was
inflamatory which it shouldn't have been. I never actually
bought a computer from these guys, just some things I heard
at the residence I live.
Richard Tobin
In article <3575bf3...@News.prestel.co.uk> do...@doogs.prestel.co.uk (Dougie Richardson) writes:
>All the systems Silicon sell have a warranty
>label fitted which breaks if you open the case,
Presumably this person is not a representative of Silicon Group, but
is paid by a competitor to damage their reputation. No reasonable
computer company's warranty would be voided by opening the case. If
you're thinking of buying from them, ask whether this is true, and if
it is, go somewhere else.
Of course, opening the case will not affect your legal rights, any
more than opening the bonnet of a car does.
-- Richard
--
Because of all the junk e-mail I receive, all e-mail from .com sites is
automatically sent to a file which I only rarely check. If you want to mail
me from a .com site, please ensure my surname appears in the headers.
Robert Gormley
Richard Tobin wrote:
: Dougie Richardson wrote:
: >All the systems Silicon sell have a warranty
: >label fitted which breaks if you open the case,
: No reasonable computer company's warranty would be voided by opening
: the case.
I think you'll find that this is more common from small operators than
you might imagine. They don't have the resources to sort out problems
caused by users mucking about with what they don't understand properly.
It may be apocaphyl (sp?), but I did hear that some even password
protect the BIOS.
Robert
A Brown
ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
>In article <3575bf3...@News.prestel.co.uk> do...@doogs.prestel.co.uk (Dougie Richardson) writes:
>>All the systems Silicon sell have a warranty
>>label fitted which breaks if you open the case,
>Presumably this person is not a representative of Silicon Group, but
>is paid by a competitor to damage their reputation. No reasonable
>computer company's warranty would be voided by opening the case. If
>you're thinking of buying from them, ask whether this is true, and if
>it is, go somewhere else.
>Of course, opening the case will not affect your legal rights, any
>more than opening the bonnet of a car does.
Eh?
What planet are you living on Richard?
To elaborate on your 'car' analogy - opening the bonnet of a car is
something you do regularly, maybe comparable to opening the CDROM
drawer. Taking the case off a PC to install new components is not an
everyday kind of thing - it is more analagous to stripping off all the
bodywork on your car...
You try buying a brand new car, removing the door, sticking a
screwdriver in the electronic window mechanism, put it all back
together again in a haphazard way and then take it back to the garage
complaining that the windows are bust, and you only took it apart to see
what it looked like inside, although you know nothing about electric windows!
I think you will find that the warranty is void on most electrical
appliances if the user has attempted to open it and perform 'Heath
Robinson' style repairs.
In fact, from my own experience, I know that repair shops also seal
computers after performing a repair, to ensure that
they do not end up doing free repairs for the rest of eternity due to
the fact that the user decided to experiment when they didn't know what
they were doing. It is standard practice.
Although I have never looked, I would assume brand name PCs bought at
Dixons, PC World etc. also have some means to tell whether a user has
been mucking about inside the case.
I have seen Silicon's stickers (there's one on my Dad's PC) and they are
huge, with clear writing to explain to the user that if they open the
case, their warranty is void. It is not as if the guy could have broken
the seal by accident - it seems to me he plugged in a new PC, it didn't
work, he read the warning on the seal, and assuming himself to be more
knowledgable than he infact was, decided to disregard the warning and
have a fiddle inside anyways.
When my Dad got his PC from Silicon, he asked them to fit a modem (which
I gave him, not purchased from Silicon) which they did, for free, as the
previous poster said, allowing him to retain his warranty. They also had
a technician come out to KINROSS, at no extra charge.
When he needed more memory, I read the seal and explained to him that if
I opened the case the warranty would be void, he accepted this and we
added the memory. If I had arsed it up by pouring coffee into it while
doing this, why should Silicon pay?
If someone does not know what they are doing, then they should leave it
well alone, or be willing to pay for their mistakes. That sounds fair to
me...
GtB
Keith Sharp
Hello,
The sticker on my Silicon Group Machine (bought April 1998) says:
WARRANTY VOID IF REMOVED
The warranty on this system is a parts and labour warranty. If this
seal is broken or the cover removed the warranty will be reduced to
parts only. Standard conditions of sale relating to parts will
apply.
My reading of this says that I can open the machine and add or replace
any bits that I want, BUT I can only claim a repair under the warranty
if a Silicon Group supplied component fails, eg the processor fan
gives up.
Keith.
Mike Dickson
In article <6l8tg9$f...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> To elaborate on your 'car' analogy - opening the bonnet of a car is
> something you do regularly, maybe comparable to opening the CDROM
> drawer. Taking the case off a PC to install new components is not an
> everyday kind of thing - it is more analagous to stripping off all the
> bodywork on your car...
I'd have to ask you what planet *you're* living on. The whole point (and
major strength) of the PC design is what IBM called its 'open
architecture'. Opening a PC and adding expansion boards or peripherals
is something that you're almost expected to do and is a fundemental part
of the way PCs everywhere are used. It's almost certain that this is a
major reason for the IBM PCs enormous domination of the world PC market.
> You try buying a brand new car, removing the door, sticking a
> screwdriver in the electronic window mechanism, put it all back
> together again in a haphazard way and then take it back to the garage
> complaining that the windows are bust
The catch is 'haphazard way'. I could disassemble and reassemble a PC
with my eyes shut. I've built and maintained systems for a decade. These
machines are not any mystery to me. Why should I be penalised? And if
you aren't going to penalise the technically competent, where do you
draw the line? Furthermore, how do you know that the retailer has gained
such a level of competence?
Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Musselburgh, Scotland
fax 0131-271-1551 - Columnated Ruins Domino - Mellotron M400 #996
Rod Begbie
In article <6l8tg9$f...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>,
>>is paid by a competitor to damage their reputation. No reasonable
>>computer company's warranty would be voided by opening the case.
>
A perfectly sane one.
> I think you will find that the warranty is void on most electrical
> appliances if the user has attempted to open it and perform 'Heath
> Robinson' style repairs.
I agree. However, let's just consider "reasonable use". It is
"reasonable" that someone may wish to, say, install a 3D Accelarator card
to their PC. They may consider themselves to be technically competent.
They fit the card, and the whole system works perfectly.
Then, three months later, the computer packs in. An engineer for the
supplying company takes a look and replaces the motherboard under
warranty.
That was my experience with a reputable firm.
If the engineer had arrived, taken a look at the torn seal on the back of
the PC, and told me to forget about it, I would have had Trading Standards
on the phone while he was still in my flat.
I was using my PC for the purpose it was intended. I had not used it
"unreasonably" (ie. not outside in a thunderstorm). My warranty was still
valid.
> When he needed more memory, I read the seal and explained to him that if
> I opened the case the warranty would be void, he accepted this and we
> added the memory. If I had arsed it up by pouring coffee into it while
> doing this, why should Silicon pay?
They wouldn't have to, because spilling coffee is "accidental damage".
You might have managed an insurance claim out of it, though.
> If someone does not know what they are doing, then they should leave it
> well alone, or be willing to pay for their mistakes. That sounds fair to
> me...
Me too. *ASSUMING* that their negligence is to blame for the fault.
Dismissing the warranty out of hand because the seal is broken smacks of
the kind of cowboyism that Silicon is famed for around this parish.
Rod.
--
Rod Begbie @ http://www.begbie.com |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Single bloke, I don't wanna be a single bloke,
| I'm so desperate, I could do it with an artichoke
Rod Begbie
In article <3575bf3...@News.prestel.co.uk>, do...@doogs.prestel.co.uk (Dougie Richardson) said:
> <snip>
>Perhaps when you come in to collect your P.C. from
>the technical support department you would care to tell us to our
>faces that we are dishonest thieves.
Yet another example of the friendly, service-with-a-smile attitude you can
expect from those fine chaps at Silicon Group.
Charlie Stross
On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 21:43:03 GMT, Dougie Richardson
<do...@doogs.prestel.co.uk> wrote:
> ... All the systems Silicon sell have a warranty
>label fitted which breaks if you open the case, why? because too many
>people open them up and poke around in there and break things or
>disconnect cables etc.
A good reason, but not good enough to justify a bad policy.
Methinks with a policy like this Silicon are shooting themselves in
the marketing foot: if you assume that only morons purchase your
products and seek to make them moron-proof, knowledgable customers
will buy elsewhere.
(Clue: when I buy a PC I _expect_ to open it up, because I have some
odd bits and pieces to cram into it. Stuff that I don't feel like
buying from the supplier, because most cheap PC suppliers don't
provide fast-wide SCSI controllers and oodles of SCSI devices, or
install non-Microsoft operating systems.)
-- Charlie
When you say `I wrote a program that crashed Windows', people just stare
at you blankly and say `Hey, I got those with the system, *for free*'
-- Linus Torvalds
ben
>
>I have never had any problems with getting stuff that doesn't work
>replaced at any computer retailer in Edinburgh. In fact I have not even
>had trouble exchanging items at Silicon that DO work, but are not right
>for my machine due to my own numpty incompetance - i.e I bought EDO
>SIMMs for a 486. Found out they didn't work on a 486, took 'em back,
>explained the problem and the exchanged them for standard ones straight
>away.
>
silicon (cow)boys I received a receipt (which was a start) which said:
"Goods are not sold on a trial basis, any goods accepted as bought on
error are subject to a 20% handling charge."
20 blinking %, f*&king h*ll!, that must add up to a lot-a money over the
while esp. considering their policy of consumer enlightenment.
One time in their technical dept I say one staff member nearly take
fisty cuffs to a "satisfied" customer unfortunate to have bought the
wrong CD writer due to v.dubious labelling, no wonder the customer was
upset 20% of 200-300 UKP is not insubstantial. Incidentally when this
staff member turned to berate the man, a puff of smoke issued from the
computer he was working on. Professionalism....... hmm.
Does anyone have statistics on average time spent in jail per
Silicon staff member?
big m
its very easy to say what happens if i want to put some other bits and
pieces into my PC.
the truth of the matter is that if a customer wishes to put something into
their computer,be it a network card soundcard or 3dfx card, they only have
to to bring their base unit and the said item to Silicon Technical and we
will break the seal place the item into the unit and reseal the base unit.
FOR NO CHARGE. if they wish that item to be configured or the software
installed then we will charge.
Charlie Stross wrote in message ...
Anup Pradhan
"big m" <m.ga...@cableinet.co.uk> writes:
Ok now I'm really confused. Say if I bought a machine from
you guys. Not that I really need one at the moment. I currently
have a really nice machine from a mail order company down in
Manchester who offered me a 1 year warrantee parts and
labour whether I open up the machine or not.
I'm a very busy man, I work about 10 hours a day. I purchase
your machine then bring it back to my office. Now, my old
machine is sitting in the corner and I haven't had time to
remove my zip drive, latest Sound blaster card and RAM which I
purchased a couple of months back. Ok, I remove this stuff
and realize the only way I can get these three things installed
in my new machine which I purchased from you is by taking it
all the way down to your shop, machine/zip drive/sound card/RAM and
checking it into your repair shop, essentially kissing half my
afternoon goodbye. Because if I open the machine myself, the
warrantee on labour (I believe from a previous post) is void.
Keep in mind that I can install both these components myself
in a couple of hours which includes the software, something I
believe your company won't even touch. Now, I come back to my
office and it dawns on me, "Hey, I don't have a computer to
work on!". In fact, I probably won't have a computer for the
next few days! No computer?!?!
Ok, 2 days pass (a conservative estimate) and I head down to your
shop to pick up my machine. Kiss another half an afternoon
goodbye. I bring it back to my office and proceed to install the
software for the Zip drive and Sound blaster sound card. Suddenly,
I realise that because of the new configuration of the machine, the
software is forcing me to reset the jumpers on both the scsi zip drive
card and the sound card. Not only that, there seems to be a hardware
conflict somewhere that was previously overlooked. Now what am I
suppose to do? I guess its back to your repair shop. Here we go
again. More of the customer's time and money is wasted.
Ok, forget about the above paragraph for a minute and assume
you guys installed all the stuff properly. I subsequenly found
no hardware conflict in this new system and was able to install
all the required software. Ha, I consider myself pretty luck.
I turn on my machine and play around with it for while to test
it out. Suddenly I notice, its as slow as hell! 32 megabyts
of RAM and 2 megabytes of video RAM just isn't enough because
I do alot if digital image processing for my work. Now what
am I suppose to do? I guess its back to your repair shop with
addition RAM and video RAM. Here we go again. More of the
customer's time and money is wasted.
This story is going to repeat itself every time I want to
upgrade my computer for the length of the warrantee.
I agree with a previous post, the PC was designed to be opened.
That is what gives the PC and MAC its flexible architecture.
The PC is not a television set, toaster or telephone and therefore
should not be treated on the same basis as these other electrical
appliances.
I realise a few other companies in Edinburgh have these sort of
policies regarding warrantee restrictions when opening the case.
The question is, "Do these sorts of warrantee restriction defeat
the primary architectural advantage of the PC?".
Anup
Mike Dickson
In article <6lfid4$e...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> a...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> Because if I open the machine myself, the warrantee on labour (I
> believe from a previous post) is void.
The warranty is only void insofar that the sticker on the case says it
is. Considering that installing peripherals inside a PC is considered
'reasonable use' I'd love to hear a vendor defend their point in court
should you happen to sue them over a failure to support the warrant on
their goods.
John Wallace
On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:06:26 GMT, r...@begbie.com (Rod Begbie) wrote:
>Yet another example of the friendly, service-with-a-smile attitude you can
>expect from those fine chaps at Silicon Group.
How exactly do you expect someone to react if you call him a dishonest
thief? The point is simply that what people say online is rarely what
they would say or do in real life - that works both ways.
Cheers!
John
Rod Begbie
In article <357d9855...@news.demon.co.uk>,
There's a long story attached here, but once, after posting to this
newsgroup that I'd seen a fistfight outside Silicon on Dalry Road between
the manager and a dissatisfied customer, four members of Silicon staff
came into my place of work to threaten me. Fact.
Rod.
--
Rod Begbie @ http://www.begbie.com |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| I'm a Computer Science undergraduate. Please have sympathy.
Tim Bradshaw
* big m wrote:
> its very easy to say what happens if i want to put some other bits and
> pieces into my PC.
> the truth of the matter is that if a customer wishes to put something into
> their computer,be it a network card soundcard or 3dfx card, they only have
> to to bring their base unit and the said item to Silicon Technical and we
> will break the seal place the item into the unit and reseal the base unit.
> FOR NO CHARGE. if they wish that item to be configured or the software
> installed then we will charge.
Will you also pay for the transport costs and downtime this involves?
could easily be L500 (a day) for someone doing real commercial work.
I wouldn't buy a machine that I couldn't open unless the people who
could open it would come to the machine, at a time to suit me, and do
the relevant stuff. It's noticable that vendors that used to have
this kind of policy (Sun for instance) typically don't any more, at
least not for small machines.
Does anyone know what the real legal situation with this sort of
`warranty-void-if-xxx' condition is? A more extreme case would be the
workstation vendors (again, Sun I think) who used to try to stop you
installing third-party memory & so forth. I suppose if the supplier
is not a monopoly then they should be able to try whatever they like,
and people will just go elsewhere?
--tim
Richard Tobin
>Taking the case off a PC to install new components is not an
>everyday kind of thing
It is for many of us.
>You try buying a brand new car, removing the door, sticking a
>screwdriver in the electronic window mechanism, put it all back
>together again in a haphazard way [...]
>I think you will find that the warranty is void on most electrical
>appliances if the user has attempted to open it and perform 'Heath
>Robinson' style repairs.
Well of course. But I didn't say anything about "putting it together
in a haphazard way" or "Heath Robinson" style repairs, did I?
If the user has broken the machine, then the retailer is not
responsible. But opening the case does not break the machine, and
it's not reasonable to act as if it did.
PCs are meant to have expansion cards and memory installed by the user.
>I have seen Silicon's stickers (there's one on my Dad's PC) and they are
>huge, with clear writing to explain to the user that if they open the
>case, their warranty is void.
So how come they're happy to sell you memory or cards for you to
install yourself? How would they like it if everyone who bought a £10
component expected them to fit it for them? Their business relies on
people upgrading computers themselves!
A Brown
r...@begbie.com (Rod Begbie) writes:
>I agree. However, let's just consider "reasonable use". It is
>"reasonable" that someone may wish to, say, install a 3D Accelarator card
>to their PC. They may consider themselves to be technically competent.
>They fit the card, and the whole system works perfectly.
>Then, three months later, the computer packs in. An engineer for the
>supplying company takes a look and replaces the motherboard under
>warranty.
>That was my experience with a reputable firm.
This is all very well, but too many people here are technically
competant, and so so not realise quite how numpty users can be.
For all the Rod Begbie's above, who can fit a 3D card, there are 20
numpties - for example:
I know one old boy, who considered himself technically competant. His
hard drive had stopped working, and I sold him my one. I offered to fit
it, and opening his machine found the old HD to be fitted UPSIDE DOWN.
No, not on it's side, as is acceptable but UPSIDE DOWN.
I later heard that he got himself another HD, so he could have a dual
boot system... The way he used it, was that if he wanted different
desktop settings, he would just open the machine, take out the HD, plug
in the other one, and boot up again. He also used to carry the spare HD
around in his pocket, and take it out and show it to people.
Now if some numpty is going to perform bonehead manoevers like that,
what is to stop them doing stuff like ramming ISA cards into PCI slots,
plugging the power cable into their parallel port, leaving a screwdriver
inside the case and switching on etc etc.
I would imagine in these kinds of scenario it is pretty much impossible
to tell if the m/board had a problem, before or after they started
mucking around with it.
I have also heard of people folding 5.25 inch floppies to get them into
3.5 inch drives. Stapling labels onto floppies, putting disks in the
drive that still have the plastic sheath on them, sitting coffee cups on
the CD ROM drawer, sticking fridge magnets on the side of their
computer/monitor to 'make it look nicer', you name it, they do it.
Anything Silicon does to help prevent numpties from mucking up their
machines, then getting it repaired for free helps keep their prices down
for those of us who have an ounce of sense, and I applaud it.
GtB
A Brown
mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>In article <6l8tg9$f...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
>The catch is 'haphazard way'. I could disassemble and reassemble a PC
>with my eyes shut. I've built and maintained systems for a decade. These
>machines are not any mystery to me. Why should I be penalised? And if
>you aren't going to penalise the technically competent, where do you
>draw the line? Furthermore, how do you know that the retailer has gained
>such a level of competence?
Fair enough. But if you buy a new PC, switch on and it doesn;t work -
what do you do? Open it up and start mucking about inside? I think not.
You tell them to get it working before you will take it.
Silicon is in my opinion a shop for people who know what they are doing
- it is not a cheap alternative to Dixons - as Dixons will treat you
like a numpty, charge you through the nose, but will spoon feed you all
the way. If that's the kind of support you think you will need, then
shop there. Likewise, if you think that plugging the
keyboard/monitor/using disks is going to be a bit tricky, buy a Mac, or
WebTV.
A total numpty going into Silicon and buying a P266 MMX with 64Mb RAM,
21 inch monitor, 8Gb HD etc etc, is the equivalent of someone who can't
drive going out and buying a helicopter - sure if you have enough cash
someone will sell it to you, but they're not responsible if you end up
wrapped round a tree...
GtB
A Brown
r...@begbie.com (Rod Begbie) writes:
>> How exactly do you expect someone to react if you call him a dishonest
>> thief? The point is simply that what people say online is rarely what
>> they would say or do in real life - that works both ways.
>There's a long story attached here, but once, after posting to this
>newsgroup that I'd seen a fistfight outside Silicon on Dalry Road between
>the manager and a dissatisfied customer, four members of Silicon staff
>came into my place of work to threaten me. Fact.
Sheesh, Here's me always sticking up for the Silicon Boys on this group
and I have not had so much as a free CD ROM!
Maybe I should change sides....
;-)
GtB
A Brown
ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
>PCs are meant to have expansion cards and memory installed by the user.
Yes.
>>I have seen Silicon's stickers (there's one on my Dad's PC) and they are
>>huge, with clear writing to explain to the user that if they open the
>>case, their warranty is void.
>So how come they're happy to sell you memory or cards for you to
>install yourself? How would they like it if everyone who bought a #10
>component expected them to fit it for them? Their business relies on
>people upgrading computers themselves!
Yeah, my PC is entirely from Silicon, although it DOES NOT HAVE A
STICKER ON IT!!! - I bought all the bits from them and built the whole
thing myself. I recently did the same for a friend.
Neither of us has had problems with the system becoming
unusable/components failing etc. So how can all these 'dissatisfied
customers' have so much bad luck? Well either one of the components was
bust when they bought it, in which case they should take it back
immediately, or they are mucking about and breaking it themselves!
I am sure if you buy a component from Silicon, it is guaranteed to work,
what is not guaranteed is that if you fit it to your PC yourself,
without knowing what you are doing, then if the whole system refuses to
boot after that (when it was all working fine before) then Silicon will
not fix it for free until the end of time.
What is your problem with that?
If I arse up my whole system, I do not expect Mr Seagate to send someone
to sort out where all the data is on my Harddrive, or Mr Gates to send
someone to reinstall Win95 for me. Okay if my Harddrive spontaneously
combusts for no apparent reason, but why is everyone here obsessed with
getting Silicon to pay for fixing something that the user has broken?
GtB
Peter Miller
A Brown wrote:
>
<snip!>
>
> Now if some numpty is going to perform bonehead manoevers like that,
> what is to stop them doing stuff like ramming ISA cards into PCI slots,
> plugging the power cable into their parallel port, leaving a screwdriver
> ---------------
What??? You mean they let <whimper of fear> *surgeons* own computers???
--
### Bob! <http://www.nsl.co.uk/kate> ###### <pmm AT dcs.ed.ac.uk> ###
The face of a child can say it all, especially
the mouth part of the face.
Robert Gormley
<snip stories of numpties>
My own favourite is the own from MS support.
On installing some software.
"The machine keeps asking me for the next disk - I've inserted the disk,
but it won't accept that - it keeps on asking for the next disk"
After much hunting and testing and hand-holding the tech finally asks
"Did you take the first disk out?"
It turns out the user had continued putting disks in without ejecting
the previous one.
"I thought it was getting difficult to insert the disks", quoth he.
<grin>
Robert
Nick Rothwell
> hard drive had stopped working, and I sold him my one. I offered to fit
> it, and opening his machine found the old HD to be fitted UPSIDE DOWN.
>
> No, not on it's side, as is acceptable but UPSIDE DOWN.
Why is the orientation of the hard disk important?
--
Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL contemporary dance projects
http://www.cassiel.com music synthesis and control
NOTICE - this vessel has triple screws - keep clear of blades
Mike Dickson
In article <6lgtvh$p...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> I know one old boy, who considered himself technically competant. His
> hard drive had stopped working, and I sold him my one. I offered to fit
> it, and opening his machine found the old HD to be fitted UPSIDE DOWN.
Since a HD works on a lateral motor system, fitting it upside down will
only mean that the controller cable would end up the wrong way round.
Hands up anyone here who has never done that. The actual physical
positioning of the HD is neither here nor there. Perhaps you could
explain what fitting a HD upside down would do to the drive in either
the short or the long term.
> I have also heard of people folding 5.25 inch floppies to get them into
> 3.5 inch drives.
So have I. Most of the stories circulate on the likes of alt.foolish.users
or alt.sysadmin.recovery are are best described as 'apocryphal'.
> Anything Silicon does to help prevent numpties from mucking up their
> machines, then getting it repaired for free helps keep their prices down
> for those of us who have an ounce of sense, and I applaud it.
You buy it, you break it, you pay for it. I don't see why they have any
right to penalise those who know what they are doing from carrying out
their own system modifications. Perhaps you could explain what right
(they think) they have to do so.
Mike Dickson
In article <6lguce$q...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> Fair enough. But if you buy a new PC, switch on and it doesn;t work -
> what do you do? Open it up and start mucking about inside? I think not.
> You tell them to get it working before you will take it.
Either you are changing the argument because you are afraid of losing it
for some reason or else you are unable to follow what's being said to
you.
I was not talking about buying a new computer that simply doesn't work.
The discussion is entirely about the ability to fit your own cards,
memory, whatever yourself without the vendor disallowing your warranty
on the strength that you've opened the casing and on the argument that
you automatically don't know what you are doing. The discussion is about
the indisputable fact that the open architecture of the IBM PC's design
is intended for the user to get at its interior.
> Silicon is in my opinion a shop for people who know what they are doing
> - it is not a cheap alternative to Dixons - as Dixons will treat you
> like a numpty, charge you through the nose, but will spoon feed you all
> the way.
Silicon on the other hand treat you like a king. Not.
> A total numpty going into Silicon and buying a P266 MMX with 64Mb RAM,
> 21 inch monitor, 8Gb HD etc etc, is the equivalent of someone who can't
> drive going out and buying a helicopter
Not only is your analogy extreme and somewhat bizarre (you don't 'drive'
helicopters for a one thing, and you cannot buy them unless you are
licensed, for another) it's completely ridiculous. The tone of your
message seems to indicate that you view these machines as somehow
Strangely Terrifying. As I keep telling people, if you can navigate your
way under the bonnet of a car then the inside of a PC will be a breeze.
Mike Dickson
In article <6lh0gn$q...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> I am sure if you buy a component from Silicon, it is guaranteed to work
Since I am not in the habit of repeating myself, if you'd like the
lengthy list of the components that I bought from Silicon that didn't
work then feel free to e-mail me.
> Okay if my Harddrive spontaneously combusts for no apparent reason,
> but why is everyone here obsessed with getting Silicon to pay for
> fixing something that the user has broken?
So try and keep up, will you? You're arguing about something entirely
different to everyone else!
Mitre
On 8 Jun 1998 14:54:41 GMT, epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Brown) wrote:
>r...@begbie.com (Rod Begbie) writes:
>
>>I agree. However, let's just consider "reasonable use". It is
>>"reasonable" that someone may wish to, say, install a 3D Accelarator card
>>to their PC. They may consider themselves to be technically competent.
>>They fit the card, and the whole system works perfectly.
>
>>Then, three months later, the computer packs in. An engineer for the
>>supplying company takes a look and replaces the motherboard under
>>warranty.
>
>>That was my experience with a reputable firm.
>
>This is all very well, but too many people here are technically
>competant, and so so not realise quite how numpty users can be.
>
>For all the Rod Begbie's above, who can fit a 3D card, there are 20
>numpties - for example:
>
>I know one old boy, who considered himself technically competant. His
>hard drive had stopped working, and I sold him my one. I offered to fit
>it, and opening his machine found the old HD to be fitted UPSIDE DOWN.
>
>No, not on it's side, as is acceptable but UPSIDE DOWN.
How on earth do you fit a hard drive upside down??
A HD can be fitted however you like, the only dificulty may be in
reaching the connectors (a long side to the bottom) or in changing
jumpers.
From this I can only assume you are one of these numptys that SC are
trying to "protect themselves" against
>
[SNIPPED]
>
>Anything Silicon does to help prevent numpties from mucking up their
>machines, then getting it repaired for free helps keep their prices down
>for those of us who have an ounce of sense, and I applaud it.
>
>GtB
A Brown
mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>In article <6lgtvh$p...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
>> I know one old boy, who considered himself technically competant. His
>> hard drive had stopped working, and I sold him my one. I offered to fit
>> it, and opening his machine found the old HD to be fitted UPSIDE DOWN.
>Since a HD works on a lateral motor system, fitting it upside down will
>only mean that the controller cable would end up the wrong way round.
>Hands up anyone here who has never done that. The actual physical
>positioning of the HD is neither here nor there. Perhaps you could
>explain what fitting a HD upside down would do to the drive in either
>the short or the long term.
Loads of bad blocks, resulting in the HD becoming unusable. That's what
happened to this boys HD. I presumed that this was due to the head
resting on the platter when he powered down - but it might admittedly
have been due to the bits of fluff that he had in his pocket.
>> I have also heard of people folding 5.25 inch floppies to get them into
>> 3.5 inch drives.
>So have I. Most of the stories circulate on the likes of alt.foolish.users
>or alt.sysadmin.recovery are are best described as 'apocryphal'.
You have obviously not met my Dad then. He is famed for commenting
'They're bloody well packaged these floppy disks' while prising the
casing off of a floppy with a screwdriver.
You are very fortunate if you have never met any technically illeterate
users in your entire time in IT, I can only presume that the people you
have built PCs for are either technically adept, or do not use their
systems after they have bought them - hey, you didn't council tax people
did you - several thousand pounds worth of equipment, and they still
write everything down on scraps of paper - but that's another gripe.
>You buy it, you break it, you pay for it. I don't see why they have any
>right to penalise those who know what they are doing from carrying out
>their own system modifications. Perhaps you could explain what right
>(they think) they have to do so.
I cannot comment for Silicon, only give my own opinion, however I think
you are being purposely obtuse. Silicon do not penalise you from
carrying out system modifications, presumably your Silicon PC works fine
- then you decide to add stuff - it no longer works. How on earth can
you expect them them to pay a member of staff to sort out the problem -
IF IT WAS CAUSED BY YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE (for free)?
All the sticker does is make sure you take responsibility for your
actions.
There seems to be an ongoing misconception on this board that a
motherboard can 'give up' after 6 months or so. In my experience, and in
the experience of two electrical engineers I know, components like this
either don't work from day 1, or they last for the entire lifetime of
the device (i.e. several years - by which time the kit is worthless and
outdated anyways)
The only exception to this is a friend who just moved flat - plugged his
PC in and the power supply blew (probably due to a loose screw getting
in there) - he lost most of his components - but then again that was his
fault for laeaving loose screws in the case - should he have asked the
company that built the PC 6 months ago to replace his PC, seeing as how
all the components had mysteriously 'broken down' all at once?
As far as I am aware, and other postings have confirmed this, Silicon
guarantee entire systems that you buy from them, so long as you don't
decide to do your own modifications, if you do, then the parts are all
still guaranteed, but the overall system isn't. I.e the bits all work,
but they won't take the machine back in, reconfigure your BIOS for you,
reinstall Windows, sort out all your IRQ/DMA conflicts etc. in order to
get it up and running again (or rather they will, but not for free)
I honestly cannot see why anyone has a problem with this. But if you do,
then buy a 1,500 quid PC from PC World that Silicon will do for 700
quid.
Personally I will choose to take responsibility for my mucking about,
and have the same (or better) spec. PC for less than half the price.
GtB
A Brown
mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>In article <6lguce$q...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
>> Fair enough. But if you buy a new PC, switch on and it doesn;t work -
>> what do you do? Open it up and start mucking about inside? I think not.
>> You tell them to get it working before you will take it.
>Either you are changing the argument because you are afraid of losing it
>for some reason or else you are unable to follow what's being said to
>you.
Please take a look at DejaNews if you are having difficulty in following
this thread Mike!
You will find that the original poster claimed Silicon were 'thieves',
and had ripped him off. It then transpired that he had not even bought a
PC at Silicon, but was acting on second hand information from 'someone
in the same Hall of Residence' - and he was simply jumping on the
anti-Silicon bandwagon that people like yourself seem so keen to
propagate.
His 'friend in Halls' had bought a PC at Silicon, which did not work
from the first time he switched on, due to a damaged motherboard. This
'unnamed' guy did not return the PC to Silicon, but opened it up and
fooled around inside it. - i.e. EXACTLY the scenario which I mentioned
above.
It is you, and other people here that have a bee in their bonnet about
Silicon that started going on about 'the right to modify their systems'
>I was not talking about buying a new computer that simply doesn't work.
>The discussion is entirely about the ability to fit your own cards,
>memory, whatever yourself without the vendor disallowing your warranty
>on the strength that you've opened the casing and on the argument that
>you automatically don't know what you are doing. The discussion is about
>the indisputable fact that the open architecture of the IBM PC's design
>is intended for the user to get at its interior.
Please see my ealier post on motherboards and other components 'suddenly
not working for no reason' - after working fine for 6 months until you
started poking about inside....
>Silicon on the other hand treat you like a king. Not.
No, they treat you like you are not a bonehead. Unfortunately the
boneheads tend to outnumber the non-boneheads out in the real world.
Please check your mail box for 'Make money fast' scams and other 'Get
Rich Quick' schemes if you do not believe this.
<I have ignored your feeble troll about driving helicopters>
>As I keep telling people, if you can navigate your
>way under the bonnet of a car then the inside of a PC will be a breeze.
Right, I will send my Dad and the old boy with the upside down HD on to
you for their IT support in future - you just keep telling them that and
I will talk to you in six months when you are a gibbering nervous wreck!
GtB
A Brown
sbr...@netcomuk.co.uk (Mitre) writes:
>How on earth do you fit a hard drive upside down??
>A HD can be fitted however you like, the only dificulty may be in
>reaching the connectors (a long side to the bottom) or in changing
>jumpers.
Okay then I will explain. He took an Amiga 1200, opened it up, removed
some shielding to get a 3.5 inch HD inside. Now you can do this by
removing a small piece of shielding, which just snaps out - it has two
small lips on it, and that's all. But this guy wanted to make sure, so
he used what I can only assume was a tin opener to remove almost all the
shielding. He then put the HD in with what all sane people assume is the
bottom - i.e the side with exposed components pointing upwards.
Now maybe there was some loose shards of metal floating about in there I
don't know, but I would have thought that it would be sensible to have
exposed components pointing down, so if you do have bits of conductive
material floating about, they are unlikely to short out components.
By the time I saw the HD it was about 70% errors, and often refused to
boot up. I presumed this was due to the head resting on the platter when
he powered down, although in retrospect I conced that it may have been
for other reasons.
>From this I can only assume you are one of these numptys that SC are
>trying to "protect themselves" against
Indeed. Please ignore my advice, and feel free to install your HD upside
down in future, in fact, please feel free to sit your PC tower upside
down, and the monitor as well if you want. I also recommend lining the
inside of your case with tin foil, and replace all the fuses with any
spare bits of wire you have lying around - to save money on new fuses.
Oh, and remember to defragment your CDROMs regularly.
Thankyou,
GtB
Jack Campin
epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Brown) writes:
> I have also heard of people [...] putting disks in the
> drive that still have the plastic sheath on them
This is within the range of ordinarily absent-minded behaviour, and any
machine that broke as a result of it would be a shitty piece of design.
Are there any disk drives on the market that are actually designed that
badly?
> sticking fridge magnets on the side of their computer/monitor to 'make
> it look nicer'
Most people have printers beside their computers. Printers have motors.
Motors have magnets. If a computer isn't well enough shielded to handle
a fridge magnet beside it, the chances are it'll eventually fail from the
normal placement of a printer.
For that matter, disk drives have motors too. That's a field just as
strong as a fridge magnet, right inside the machine. Or are you using
the new Baygen clockwork disk drives?
--> email to "jc" at the site in the "From:" line: mail to "jack" bounces <--
Jack Campin * 2 Haddington Place, Edinburgh EH7 4AE, Scotland * 0131 556 5272
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Mike Dickson
In article <6lhroe$5...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> Loads of bad blocks, resulting in the HD becoming unusable. That's what
> happened to this boys HD. I presumed that this was due to the head
> resting on the platter when he powered down
You presume entirely and completely wrong. I can only imagine from your
description of events that you have no idea whatsoever about what the
interior of a hard drive looks like, nor how it works. However, you go
on to say...
> Now maybe there was some loose shards of metal floating about in there I
> don't know, but I would have thought that it would be sensible to have
> exposed components pointing down, so if you do have bits of conductive
> material floating about, they are unlikely to short out components.
Last time I looked at any PC motherboard all the 'exposed components'
were sitting face up. Unless of course you are recommending installing
*it* upside down, which would present the odd problem or two with a few
things.
> I cannot comment for Silicon, only give my own opinion, however I think
> you are being purposely obtuse.
I don't think I could be obtuse enough when it comes to describing their
operation.
Mike Dickson
In article <6lhshp$5...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> Please take a look at DejaNews if you are having difficulty in following
> this thread Mike!
> You will find that the original poster claimed Silicon were 'thieves',
> and had ripped him off.
I think you'll find that the discussion has advanced a little since
then and has progressed onto the fact that vendors do not have an
defensible right to prevent a customer from opening their PC and doing
whatever they like to it. Then again, if the customer breaks it then the
customer pays for the repair.
Would you expect to buy a car with a little sticker placed over the wing
and bonnet which said 'warranty invalid if removed'?
> >Silicon on the other hand treat you like a king. Not.
> No, they treat you like you are not a bonehead.
Those are not exactly the words I'd use.
Michael Merriman
In article <6lhroe$5...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>,
>motherboard can 'give up' after 6 months or so. In my experience, and in
>the experience of two electrical engineers I know, components like this
>either don't work from day 1, or they last for the entire lifetime of
>the device (i.e. several years - by which time the kit is worthless and
>outdated anyways)
I hate to contradict you but this is *exactly* what happened to me.
I bought a motherboard from The Silicon Group and three months after
installing it, it failed. I powered it on and nothing happened.
I took it back to Silicon and they replaced it under warranty and as
far as I know its still going strong (I've since sold it to fund a
recent upgrade). I did *nothing* to cause it to fail, I simply
turned it on.
--
Michael Merriman michael....@naespam.gssec.bt.co.uk
The opinions expressed herein are mine and not those of my employers
A Brown
mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>I think you'll find that the discussion has advanced a little since
>then and has progressed onto the fact that vendors do not have an
>defensible right to prevent a customer from opening their PC and doing
>whatever they like to it. Then again, if the customer breaks it then the
>customer pays for the repair.
Right then. You build someone a PC (as I believe you do), and you test
it and it works fine. You sell it to them. 2 months later they come back
and say the m/board is broken - you take a look and there is no apparent
physical damage, but the motherboard is totally dead.
So what do you do? Do you replace it free of charge and pass the cost
onto your other customers?
Let me pre-empt your reply and assume you fix it by replacing the
'faulty' motherboard. The same guy comes in 2 months after that and
says it has broken AGAIN - what do you do this time? (None of your other
customers have had any similar problems)
Two months later and your supplier has pointed out that you seem to have
a disproportionate number of 'faulty' returns. The same guy wanders in
again - this time the m/board is fine but his 'Windows are full of
holes', he wants you to replace the HD (which is now 50% bad blocks) and
reinstall Win95/ setup his machine again for free...
Do you continue to fix his PC for free Mike, an pass the cost onto your
other customers?
If so, I am sure everyone here would be interested in how much you
charge for a new PC there at Black Cat....
GtB
wa...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6lhtbp$5...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>,
epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Brown) wrote:
> Okay then I will explain. He took an Amiga 1200, opened it up, removed
> some shielding to get a 3.5 inch HD inside. Now you can do this by
> removing a small piece of shielding, which just snaps out - it has two
> small lips on it, and that's all. But this guy wanted to make sure, so
> he used what I can only assume was a tin opener to remove almost all the
> shielding. He then put the HD in with what all sane people assume is the
> bottom - i.e the side with exposed components pointing upwards.
That's the only way you can really get a 3.5" HD into an A1200. Remember it
does have a bay for a 2.5" drive, if tight-wads want to crowbar a 3.5" in,
then that's their problem... I've got a 3.5" in my old A1200, upside down,
but i've still got it sitting in its static bag as to not have any contact
between the electronics. I'm sure it being in a anti-static bag aint good!
> By the time I saw the HD it was about 70% errors, and often refused to
> boot up. I presumed this was due to the head resting on the platter when
Amigas are less forgiving of crap HDs...
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
A Brown
wa...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>That's the only way you can really get a 3.5" HD into an A1200.
Nonsense. I had a 3.5 inch HD in my Amiga 1200, and before selling it to
someone on this very group I put another 3.5 inch HD in - there is no
problem putting 3.5 inch HDs inside Amiga's - and you do not have to put
them in upside down! You only have to remove a very small square of
shielding, and shave off the little plastic struts on the lid...
>Amigas are less forgiving of crap HDs...
I would disagree. I had an old HD that none of my 3 PCs would recognise
- the Amiga saw it and formatted it, although it was so full of bad
blocks it was not really worth using...
GtB
Robert Gormley
<snip HDD orientation discussion>
I don't know what I'm talking about re this, and I have no idea why it's
so, but HDD manufacturers specify the orientation of the drive. It
needs to be within a few degrees of level, and in one of three
orientations.
1) Flat with PCB down.
2) On long edge with PCB to left >In both cases the IDE connector must
3) On long edge with PCB to right >be vertical - don't put it pointing
>straight up or down.
I don't know why you can't put it on it's nose or tail or why you
shouldn't put it "upside down" with the PCB facing up, but those are the
guidelines. Fujitsu even go so far as to specify which screw holes you
should use - the outside four of the six available (the ones at the
corners). This of course doesn't work in most cases and you have to use
the four furthest from the IDE connector...
Robert
Liam Parker
Robert Gormley wrote:
> I don't know what I'm talking about re this, and I have no idea why it's
> so, but HDD manufacturers specify the orientation of the drive. It
> needs to be within a few degrees of level, and in one of three
Sense at last. Manufacturers are quite specific about stating the
spec. of their HDDs. Something notebook users should remember. A
notebook
wobbling around on your lap with it's disk drive wizzing round does it
no
good. It's pretty nice that they manage to cope with this (re:
rotational
dynamics) but it is outside the manufacturers spec. by quite a way.
Liam
john_...@gb.coopers.com
> Neither of us has had problems with the system becoming
> unusable/components failing etc. So how can all these 'dissatisfied
> customers' have so much bad luck? Well either one of the components was
> bust when they bought it, in which case they should take it back
> immediately, or they are mucking about and breaking it themselves!
Well, speaking personally, I've had no problems with Silicon stuff.
But then, everyone else I know who's bought something from them has
had something go wrong. Maybe I'm just lucky, but the impression I
get is that they have a lot of returns. Saying that, I've never heard
of anyone having any problem getting faulty goods exchanged...
> I am sure if you buy a component from Silicon, it is guaranteed to work,
> what is not guaranteed is that if you fit it to your PC yourself,
> without knowing what you are doing, then if the whole system refuses to
> boot after that (when it was all working fine before) then Silicon will
> not fix it for free until the end of time.
True, but you shouldn't be mucking around inside the system unless you
know what you are doing. I'd hope anyone who was mucking around would
know exactly what they were doing...
> If I arse up my whole system, I do not expect Mr Seagate to send someone
> to sort out where all the data is on my Harddrive, or Mr Gates to send
> someone to reinstall Win95 for me. Okay if my Harddrive spontaneously
> combusts for no apparent reason, but why is everyone here obsessed with
> getting Silicon to pay for fixing something that the user has broken?
You said it; it depends on whether or not the user is responsible for
damaging components or mashing the software, or Silicon for supplying
components which are likely to fail, resulting in damaged components
or mashed software. If you are looking 'under the bonnet' of your
PC, you should be competent enough to decide what is wrong. Maybe
that's why I've not had any problems, I don't know...
All things said and done, I think Silicon's prices are pretty
reasonable, and I don't have any cause for complaint...
Maybe we should do a poll of all contributors who've bought goods
from Silicon against the number of faults?
john
--
What's in here is nothing to do with any opinions of Coopers&Lybrand.
They're my opinions only...
Nick Rothwell
nj...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( Robert Gormley) writes:
> I don't know what I'm talking about re this, and I have no idea why it's
> so, but HDD manufacturers specify the orientation of the drive.
No mention of orientation in any of the instruction pamphlets for the
various SCSI and IDE drives we've bought over the years.
I'm obviously in the wrong business. I'm going to write a book
entitled "PC FENG SHUI" and sell millions of copies in California.
Charlie Stross
In the name of Kibo the Compassionate, the Merciful,
on 9 Jun 1998 08:33:54 GMT,A Brown
the supplicant <epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> implored:
>Right then. You build someone a PC (as I believe you do), and you test
>it and it works fine. You sell it to them. 2 months later they come back
>and say the m/board is broken - you take a look and there is no apparent
>physical damage, but the motherboard is totally dead.
>
>So what do you do? Do you replace it free of charge and pass the cost
>onto your other customers?
Yes. Because it's good business sense.
For two reasons:
a) Goodwill. If you replace it, the punter goes away happy. Happy punters
talk to other punters about the reason they're happy. Next time someone
asks them where to buy a PC, they'll say "Silicon -- the service is
excellent". Believe me, that's worth more than anything you can buy
through advertising.
b) Specification drift. Say the punter bought a Pentium 233 2 months ago.
The machine is no longer at the same point in the PC hardware ladder
that it was back then; prices are coming down. The cost of slapping
a replacement P233 motherboard into that machine today is _less_ than
the cost of the original motherboard.
Assuming hardware failures occur at a constant rate throughout the 1 year
statutory warranty period, the median point will be at six months. How
much do component prices drop in six months? You've got it: a machine
which is high-end today will be mid-range in six months, budget issue
at the end of the one-year period.
As stock depreciates like nobody's business, it behooves you to get rid
of stale inventory items by using them for warranty repairs. It buys you
customer goodwill and it keeps your stock from depreciating. (Besides,
can't you claim it as a business loss and reduce your company's overall
tax liability?)
In a nutshell: goodwill is the most valuable, yet intangible, asset any
business can acquire. You can acquire it rapidly through courteous,
efficient after-sales service. Because the cost of computing components
is dropping all the time, the cost of this service is not as great as you
might think.
-- Charlie
"Computers depreciate faster than you expect, even when you take
Charlie's Depreciation Hypothesis into account"
-- Charlie's Depreciation Hypothesis
Richard Tobin
>I am sure if you buy a component from Silicon, it is guaranteed to work,
>what is not guaranteed is that if you fit it to your PC yourself,
>without knowing what you are doing, then if the whole system refuses to
>boot after that (when it was all working fine before) then Silicon will
>If I arse up my whole system, I do not expect Mr Seagate to send someone
>to sort out where all the data is on my Harddrive, or Mr Gates to send
>someone to reinstall Win95 for me. Okay if my Harddrive spontaneously
>combusts for no apparent reason, but why is everyone here obsessed with
>getting Silicon to pay for fixing something that the user has broken?
Why are you arguing against something no-one has said? No-one expects
them to repair things you have "arsed up". No-one expects them to fix
things "until the end of time".
But you yourself quoted their sticker saying that the warranty was
void if you opened the case: not if you do it "without knowing what
you are doing", but if you do it at all.
So - assuming their sticker says what you say it does - a competent
user whose machine breaks after they perform a reasonable upgrade
has no warranty. I am a competent user. Why on earth should I buy
from a company with that policy?
-- Richard
--
Because of all the junk e-mail I receive, all e-mail from .com sites is
automatically sent to a file which I only rarely check. If you want to mail
me from a .com site, please ensure my surname appears in the headers.
Richard Tobin
>Why is the orientation of the hard disk important?
Some (at least) hard disks are designed only to be installed upright
(ie with the circuit board at the bottom) or on one of the two long
edges. Sometimes the manufacturer specifies the maximum permitted
deviation (in degrees) from these positions. I wouldn't be surprised
if mounting them on end was fine, but upside-down probably stresses
the bearing in a way that wasn't intended.
I just looked at the online documentation for some Quantum, Maxtor and
Seagate drives. I couldn't see any reference to orientation, so maybe
it doesn't matter for recent drives. But I'll stick with the usual
orientations myself...
A Brown
ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
>But you yourself quoted their sticker saying that the warranty was
>void if you opened the case: not if you do it "without knowing what
>you are doing", but if you do it at all.
>So - assuming their sticker says what you say it does - a competent
>user whose machine breaks after they perform a reasonable upgrade
>has no warranty. I am a competent user. Why on earth should I buy
>from a company with that policy?
Please see my personal email to you.
I cannot be arsed with arguing the point with a load of people who seem
to have already made up their minds anymore....
Go someplace else for your PC stuff, it will mean a shorter queue for me
when I go to Silicon.
GtB
Sam Wilson
In article <EuAEt...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>, ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard
Tobin) wrote:
> In article <lwyav7z...@wyvis.an-teallach.com> Nick Rothwell
<ni...@cassiel.com> writes:
>
> >Why is the orientation of the hard disk important?
>
> Some (at least) hard disks are designed only to be installed upright
> (ie with the circuit board at the bottom) or on one of the two long
> edges. Sometimes the manufacturer specifies the maximum permitted
> deviation (in degrees) from these positions. I wouldn't be surprised
> if mounting them on end was fine, but upside-down probably stresses
> the bearing in a way that wasn't intended.
The early Rodime 5.25" hard drives had a two position, er, thing[*] on
them which you adjusted to suit whether they would be mounted on their
bottom or side, the only two permitted orientations. I don't know exactly
why. This was back in the days of stepper motor driven heads that had to
be parked before powering the drive down and all that jazz. I don't know
about modern drives but given the tiny tolerances involved I wouldn't be
surprised if the bearings, seals and all the various moving parts were
designed to work best with forces acting only in a few directions.
--
Sam Wilson
Network Services Division
Computing Services, The University of Edinburgh
Edinburgh, Scotland, UK
Karl Stephen
epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Brown) writes:
>Yeah, my PC is entirely from Silicon, although it DOES NOT HAVE A
>STICKER ON IT!!! - I bought all the bits from them and built the whole
>thing myself. I recently did the same for a friend.
I bought one two years ago and it has worked okay since then. There was
no sticker on it either but that was then.....
>I am sure if you buy a component from Silicon, it is guaranteed to work,
>what is not guaranteed is that if you fit it to your PC yourself,
>without knowing what you are doing, then if the whole system refuses to
>boot after that (when it was all working fine before) then Silicon will
>not fix it for free until the end of time.
I upgraded the machine by adding 2 x 4Mb chips, a sound card and a CDROM
all from Silicon. I had problems with all three upgrades. I bought the
first two together. I actually found that when I got home I only had one
chip in the sound card box. I also had problems configuring the IRQ
setting for the sound card in Windows 3.1 - piss poor installation
software, I have to say. After a visit to Silicon
Group, they happily gave me two new chips and instructed me how to set
the IRQ setting in the config.sys (or autoexec.bat - it was 18 months
ago and I'm now on windows 95). Still the memory and sound card didn't
work and they replaced both without a fuss. I was third time lucky.
The CDROM worked fine when I first got it. Then about half way into the
1 year warranty it stopped working. I took it back and they accepted
the warranty. The only had 24 speed drives left which were an extra 15
pounds on the refund. I was going to demand my money back but the guy
then offered to split the difference so for 7.50 I upgraded my CDROM
from 6 speed to 24 speed.
My experience is that you are likely to get duff stuff but they are
happy to exchange it.
I also added a modem (bought from Alan Brown) and have since upgraded it
with no problems.
>What is your problem with that?
>If I arse up my whole system, I do not expect Mr Seagate to send someone
>to sort out where all the data is on my Harddrive, or Mr Gates to send
>someone to reinstall Win95 for me. Okay if my Harddrive spontaneously
>combusts for no apparent reason, but why is everyone here obsessed with
>getting Silicon to pay for fixing something that the user has broken?
Its about trust versus cost. SG have to trust you not to knacker
anything but they still have to be prepared to accept that you are
telling the truth when you say it simply doesn't work. I don't know how
they can do that.
I have to say though that if they don't trust me at all, I'm not going
to buy from them as I expect to be able to upgrade my hardware as and
when I need to.
Also, I wasn't aware that they did free installation of upgrades. I
thought they charged.
Karl Stephen
Mike Dickson
In article <6lis1i$c...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> Right then. You build someone a PC (as I believe you do), and you test
> it and it works fine. You sell it to them. 2 months later they come back
> and say the m/board is broken - you take a look and there is no apparent
> physical damage, but the motherboard is totally dead.
Motherboards don't 'die'. Components on them are what die, and hardly
ever all at once. (In fact I can only think of one instance where
several failed and that was given away by the board being blackened with
soot. I leave the cause to the reader's imagination.) If someone has
managed to cause sufficient damage to the motherboard's components so as
to render them knackered then there will always be some way of finding
out what happened.
Don't assume that everyone has your level of knuckle-dragging hardware
diagnostic skills.
> Let me pre-empt your reply and assume you fix it by replacing the
> 'faulty' motherboard.
Why the quotation marks? It's either faulty or it's not. The reason for
its demise is neither here nor there.
If the same person came back again with the same problem in two months
then it would be a pretty clear indication that their use is at fault.
However, I don't see why you are attempting to pilot this answer out of
me. If a user blows his system then he pays for it. You'll get no
argument from me on that account. The fact is that I'm pretty much
uncertain as to just what you *are* arguing about now.
> If so, I am sure everyone here would be interested in how much you
> charge for a new PC there at Black Cat....
Depends on the specs. Much like everyone else, I should say.
John Wallace
On 8 Jun 1998 14:54:41 GMT, epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Brown) wrote:
>I know one old boy, who considered himself technically competant. His
>hard drive had stopped working, and I sold him my one. I offered to fit
>it, and opening his machine found the old HD to be fitted UPSIDE DOWN.
>
>No, not on it's side, as is acceptable but UPSIDE DOWN.
Wow, like, cosmic man - that's what I do....
I have three hard disks in my system - one "normal", one <shock>
UPSIDE DOWN and one in a caddy that has been carried back and forward
to work for about two years.
Nae problems at all.
Now if they screw up I'm certainly not taking them back to the shop
(well, the pocket one anyway!), but what on earth is the problem with
an upside down hard disk? My laptop spends it's time being frozen in
baggage holds, cooked in my car boot, kicked under airplane seats and
generally messed around - nae problem at all....
Cheers!
John
Jack Campin
Liam Parker <nob...@ccir.ed.ac.uk> writes:
> Manufacturers are quite specific about stating the spec. of their HDDs.
> Something notebook users should remember. A notebook wobbling around on
> your lap with it's disk drive wizzing round does it no good. It's pretty
> nice that they manage to cope with this (re: rotational dynamics) but it
> is outside the manufacturers spec. by quite a way.
It *better* be within spec, because use on the move is what people buy
notebook computers for, and if they fail to meet that purpose they are
contravening the Trade Descriptions Act.
Disk drives for military and civil-marine use are obviously capable of
taking sizable gyroscopic forces; cheaper to pay for a stronger disk
axle and bearing assembly than try to hold the entire ship horizontal
under shellfire in a Force 10 gale. So anybody who wants to build a
reliable notebook only has to buy mil-spec parts.
Charles Ellson
In article <ey3emx0...@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
t...@aiai.ed.ac.uk "Tim Bradshaw" writes:
<snip>
> Does anyone know what the real legal situation with this sort of
> `warranty-void-if-xxx' condition is? A more extreme case would be the
If it prevents the computer being used in a normal manner (i.e. stops you
gaining access to add/change anything which it would be normal to add/change
during normal usage) then it would seem to fall foul of the Sale of Goods
Acts etc. on the grounds of not being usable for its' intended purpose and
I suspect would also clash with legislation on unfair contracts if the shop
attempted to rely on the labels to void any warranty.
<snip>
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson:E-mail charlesATellson.demon.co.uk | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | > < |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|
Charles Ellson
In article <lwra0yz...@wyvis.an-teallach.com>
ni...@cassiel.com "Nick Rothwell" writes:
> nj...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( Robert Gormley) writes:
> > I don't know what I'm talking about re this, and I have no idea why it's
> > so, but HDD manufacturers specify the orientation of the drive.
>
> No mention of orientation in any of the instruction pamphlets for the
> various SCSI and IDE drives we've bought over the years.
>
I've seen manufacturers' specs in the past which required mounting within
x degrees of level or hanging sideways, but none of the newer ones I've
got demand this (in the case of HDDs in portables it would often be wishful
thinking anyway); the reason is probably connected with how the bearings
were designed.
> I'm obviously in the wrong business. I'm going to write a book
> entitled "PC FENG SHUI" and sell millions of copies in California.
>
--
Davros
And i would love to hear you defend yourselves against a pack of lions
ripping you apart. why dont you but out and keep your petty little BIASED
opinion to yourself.
>The warranty is only void insofar that the sticker on the case says it
>is. Considering that installing peripherals inside a PC is considered
>'reasonable use' I'd love to hear a vendor defend their point in court
>should you happen to sue them over a failure to support the warrant on
>their goods.
Richard Tobin
I looked a bit futher, and found one installation guide (from SMC
computers) which says "NEVER mount your drive upside-down", and another
(for a Seagate disk I think) which explicitly said it could be mounted
in any orientation.
Mike Dickson
In article <357db...@ispc-news.cableinet.net> m.ga...@cableinet.co.uk wrote...
> And i would love to hear you defend yourselves against a pack of lions
> ripping you apart. why dont you but out and keep your petty little BIASED
> opinion to yourself.
Ah, this would be the friendly face and highly informed opinion of the
Silicon Group again, is it?
A Brown
mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>Motherboards don't 'die'. Components on them are what die, and hardly
>ever all at once.
Okay Mr Logic.
>(In fact I can only think of one instance where
>several failed and that was given away by the board being blackened with
>soot. I leave the cause to the reader's imagination.) If someone has
>managed to cause sufficient damage to the motherboard's components so as
>to render them knackered then there will always be some way of finding
>out what happened.
Please tell everyone here how you determine which component on a
motherboard has broke, and how you go about replacing the broken
component (e.g. a broken track) on the motherboard in order to make it
work again Mike.
Nowadays if the board doesn't work, you replace the whole thing, as an
item, it's broken. The days have gone where you could replace a valve
and get the thing working again.
>Don't assume that everyone has your level of knuckle-dragging hardware
>diagnostic skills.
My goodness, what an offensive attitude you have. I am not surprised
that Silicon have banned you from their premises if that is the kind of
attitude you go in with....
>> Let me pre-empt your reply and assume you fix it by replacing the
>> 'faulty' motherboard.
>Why the quotation marks? It's either faulty or it's not. The reason for
>its demise is neither here nor there.
The quotation marks were used to indicate that the user might claim the
board was 'faulty' where in actual fact it was not faulty, it was in
complete working order until they broke it. Obviously if is no longer
worked due to something they had done, then the reason for it's demise
is actually quite important - if they are demanding you give them
another one for free.
>However, I don't see why you are attempting to pilot this answer out of
>me. If a user blows his system then he pays for it. You'll get no
>argument from me on that account. The fact is that I'm pretty much
>uncertain as to just what you *are* arguing about now.
Okay, I will try to keep it simple:
Imagine for a moment you work for Silicon, the user comes in with a PC
he bought last week. The seal on the back is broken. He says it doesn't
work.
What do you do?
How long will it take you to determine whether it was a faulty board or
is he has broken it himself? How long is the queue by the time you have
worked it out? How much has it cost you to work it out?
>> If so, I am sure everyone here would be interested in how much you
>> charge for a new PC there at Black Cat....
>Depends on the specs. Much like everyone else, I should say.
Much like Silicon (about 500 quid for a P233, 64Mb RAM, 32x CDROM, 15
inch monitor, 4.3Gb HD, FDD, 4Mb graphics card, soundcard, keyboard and
mouse - if you build it yourself) or much like Dixons (comparable system
(ready built for about 1500?)
If you're spending several hours a day going over motherboards looking
for soot marks then I guess it is the latter, but I am sure everyone
here would like to see you put your money where your mouth is and tell
us a figure for the above spec of machine.
If you are still having problems understanding my questions, please let me
know and I will write it in crayon (depite my dragging knuckles), scan
it and send you a copy.
GtB
Iain A F Fleming
In ed.general
the being calling itself "ja...@purr.demon.co.uk (Jack Campin)"
wrote:
> It *better* be within spec, because use on the move is what people buy
> notebook computers for, and if they fail to meet that purpose they are
> contravening the Trade Descriptions Act.
Looking at the warranty label on a Seagate drive - from a desktop
machine - it has a little note on it that states that "shocks in
excess of 75g" are outside spec, and invalidate warranty. 75g is quite
a lot of force. You are rather unlikely to generate this short of
dropping the thing, or shaking it violently - and certainly not by
simply wobbling it to and fro on your lap.
--
Iain A F Fleming http://www.threel.co.uk/
3L Ltd 86/92 Causewayside Edinburgh Scotland
Shaf Rasul
Perhaps you would like current prices for these products.
Intel p233 and Lx mainboard with 4 mb agp and onboard sound. £199.99
64 mb sdram £49.99 (or 2 * 32 mb simms at £19.99 each)
32 speed cd rom £39.99 choice of Samsung/Mitsumi/Acer/goldstar.
15" monitor with 1 yr warranty £99.99 or with 3 yr £119.99
4.2 gig harddisk £109.99
fdd £12.50
keyboard entry level win 95 £4.99
mouse std ms compat £4.99
case £19.99
epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk
Shaf Rasul <shaf....@virgin.net> writes:
>Perhaps you would like current prices for these products.
>Intel p233 and Lx mainboard with 4 mb agp and onboard sound. #199.99
>64 mb sdram #49.99 (or 2 * 32 mb simms at #19.99 each)
>32 speed cd rom #39.99 choice of Samsung/Mitsumi/Acer/goldstar.
>15" monitor with 1 yr warranty #99.99 or with 3 yr #119.99
>4.2 gig harddisk #109.99
>fdd #12.50
>keyboard entry level win 95 #4.99
>mouse std ms compat #4.99
>case #19.99
i.e total cost : 532.41 - Not far off my estimate of 500 quid.
(add a tenner for sdram)
In case you are at all bothered, I made up the specification to be
exactly the same as one I build for a friend about a month and a half
ago - made completely from components bought from Silicon.
ALthough we purchased everything at their computer show, so it might
have been a wee bit cheaper. We built the above spec of machine (minus
soundcard and monitor, plus a 2Mb video card) for 398 quid
(plus 2 quid entrance fee).
Therefore, adding a monitor, a better video card and a cheap soundcard
onto that price works out at the 500 quid area that I mentioned.
We put the whole PC together with no fuss (took about 3 hours), stuck a
'GonadoVision' sticker on the front and it has worked perfectly ever
since.
As far as I am aware, all the components are still under guarantee by
Silicon Group, and if he wants to add anything he can (no sticker on the
back) - although if he adds something and Windows ceases to work, then
he will have to fix it himself, however having built the thing in the
first place, he should manage this no problem - so the system as a whole
is not guaranteed by Silicon (well we built it ourselves, so this is a
bit much to ask), but the parts are. I guess the same would be true of a
system we had bought, and then decided to open and make changes to. Fair
enough in my book.
Now that that has been sorted out, could Mike 'Hardware Guru' Dickson
manage to give us a price on one of his systems (of this spec.) and then
tell us that he is not charging us extra for having to spend time
sorting out problems that other users have caused themselves by mucking about
inside the case and not knowing what they are doing.
Thankyou,
GtB
Mike Dickson
In article <6lm6qp$d...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> Now that that has been sorted out, could Mike 'Hardware Guru' Dickson
> manage to give us a price on one of his systems (of this spec.)
(1) I am not a 'hardware guru' and don't set myself up as one. That's
your description.
(2) I don't pass costs of fixing systems onto people other than
the cuistomer whose system I am fixing, if such a charge is
applicable.
(3) The costs of a system varies according to supply and quantity.
I would have hoped all this was pretty obvious to all but the thickest.
Mike Dickson
In article <6llnoo$8...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> My goodness, what an offensive attitude you have. I am not surprised
> that Silicon have banned you from their premises if that is the kind of
> attitude you go in with....
They haven't. In point of fact I was in there yesterday, although not to
buy anything for myself. The outright drivel about being 'banned' came
from a congenital liar who posts to this newsgroup whose reappearance
has suddenly been noticed.
> Imagine for a moment you work for Silicon
I cannot. Not even for a moment. As such, the rest of your question
makes absolutely no sense since it assumes I have an entirely different
business ethics than those which I currently have.
Anyway, I thought you had flounced off this thread a couple of days ago.
Nick W Walton
In article <35...@purr.demon.co.uk>, ja...@purr.demon.co.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
|> taking sizable gyroscopic forces; cheaper to pay for a stronger disk
|> axle and bearing assembly than try to hold the entire ship horizontal
|> under shellfire in a Force 10 gale. So anybody who wants to build a
|> reliable notebook only has to buy mil-spec parts.
|>
Don't you remember how expensive Military Lasers were in elite!?!?!?
N.
P.S. Only kidding.
--
Nick Walton 2nd year Postgraduate Mailto://Nick....@ee.ed.ac.uk (work)
http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~aardvark
Mitre
On 8 Jun 1998 23:50:17 GMT, epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Brown) wrote:
>sbr...@netcomuk.co.uk (Mitre) writes:
>
>>How on earth do you fit a hard drive upside down??
>>A HD can be fitted however you like, the only dificulty may be in
>>reaching the connectors (a long side to the bottom) or in changing
>>jumpers.
>
>Okay then I will explain.
> [Irrelevant explanation snipped]
>>From this I can only assume you are one of these numptys that SC are
>>trying to "protect themselves" against
>
>Indeed. Please ignore my advice, and feel free to install your HD upside
>down in future, in fact, please feel free to sit your PC tower upside
>down, and the monitor as well if you want. I also recommend lining the
>inside of your case with tin foil, and replace all the fuses with any
>spare bits of wire you have lying around - to save money on new fuses.
>
>Oh, and remember to defragment your CDROMs regularly.
>
>Thankyou,
>
>GtB
This merely reinforces your 'numptiness'
Mitre
On 8 Jun 1998 23:36:25 GMT, epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Brown) wrote:
>mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>
>>In article <6lguce$q...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
>
>>> Fair enough. But if you buy a new PC, switch on and it doesn;t work -
>>> what do you do? Open it up and start mucking about inside? I think not.
>>> You tell them to get it working before you will take it.
>
I would first check that all connectors were correctly seated before I
went to the, not inconsiderable, hassle of returning it.
This would require me to open the case.
>
>You will find that the original poster claimed Silicon were 'thieves',
>and had ripped him off. It then transpired that he had not even bought a
>PC at Silicon, but was acting on second hand information from 'someone
>in the same Hall of Residence' - and he was simply jumping on the
>anti-Silicon bandwagon that people like yourself seem so keen to
>propagate.
>
>His 'friend in Halls' had bought a PC at Silicon, which did not work
>from the first time he switched on, due to a damaged motherboard. This
>'unnamed' guy did not return the PC to Silicon, but opened it up and
>fooled around inside it. - i.e. EXACTLY the scenario which I mentioned
>above.
>
I agree the original poster is a clown.
>It is you, and other people here that have a bee in their bonnet about
>Silicon that started going on about 'the right to modify their systems'
I still don't understand why you have set yourself up as chief
apologist for SC.
> [SNIPPED]
>>Silicon on the other hand treat you like a king. Not.
>
>No, they treat you like you are not a bonehead. Unfortunately the
>boneheads tend to outnumber the non-boneheads out in the real world.
>Please check your mail box for 'Make money fast' scams and other 'Get
>Rich Quick' schemes if you do not believe this.
>
On the contrary the sticker means that they think the purchaser is an
idiot. Most upgrades are trivial and unlikely to cause any damage. A
warning about what can go wrong in the documentation (I'm assuming
they DO provide documentation) would be more appropriate and is more
common.
> [SNIPPED]
>
>GtB
>
Mitre
On 10 Jun 1998 10:39:20 GMT, epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Brown)
wrote:
>mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>
>
>Okay, I will try to keep it simple:
>
>Imagine for a moment you work for Silicon, the user comes in with a PC
>he bought last week. The seal on the back is broken. He says it doesn't
>work.
>
>What do you do?
>
>How long will it take you to determine whether it was a faulty board or
>is he has broken it himself? How long is the queue by the time you have
>worked it out? How much has it cost you to work it out?
If SC don't offer what is considered 'a standard warranty' then they
should make it very clear when selling that in case of a defect the
user is to blame unless proven otherwise.
>[SNIPPED]
>
>GtB
Norman Dryden
In article <CheetahPRO_...@blackcat.demon.co.uk>, mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
|>
|> I would have hoped all this was pretty obvious to all but the thickest.
|>
|> fax 0131-271-1551 - Columnated Ruins Domino - Mellotron M400 #996
|>
Does your signature mean that you are proprietor of, or represent, a
commercial company ? Does someone with your attitude actually get any
customers ? I know nothing about your organisation, but from your
contributions to this newsgroup, I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole.
Norman
A Brown
mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>In article <6llnoo$8...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
>> My goodness, what an offensive attitude you have. I am not surprised
>> that Silicon have banned you from their premises if that is the kind of
>> attitude you go in with....
>They haven't. In point of fact I was in there yesterday, although not to
>buy anything for myself. The outright drivel about being 'banned' came
>from a congenital liar who posts to this newsgroup whose reappearance
>has suddenly been noticed.
Please refer to DejaNews - your own posts regarding your horror and
offense at being 'banned' from Silicon's premises are still archived for
all to see...
>> Imagine for a moment you work for Silicon
>I cannot. Not even for a moment. As such, the rest of your question
>makes absolutely no sense since it assumes I have an entirely different
>business ethics than those which I currently have.
So you are totally unwilling to see things from their point of view? I
am now in a position to fully understand why the Silicon staff sometimes
have the attitude you claim. If this long thread is anything to go by,
having people like you wandering in with their HDs fitted upside down,
and the RAM forced in the wrong way round everyday, claiming "well it
doesn;t specifically say DO NOT FIT THIS UPSIDE DOWN in the
instructions" and demanding a refund would be enough to make a Saint
swear.
>Anyway, I thought you had flounced off this thread a couple of days ago.
I did, but your ill-informed and prejudiced attitude forced me into
replying.
Still unable to actually provide any figures to back up your argument
though I see....
I have also had a number of emails as a result of this thread, and I
would just like to mention, that although a few people have mentioned
problems with items they bought from Silicon, no-one has had any problem
getting the matter resolved to their satisfaction - it appears you are
the only one who is still dissatisfied. Please could you tell us how
much you are out of pocket due to your dealings with Silicon, and how
come you are so upset about them, oh yeah, and what you were doing 'in
there yesterday' if they are as bad as you make out.
Perhaps potential customers buying direct from Silicon has more of an
effect on your own business than you would care to admit....
GtB
rjh...@ucs.ed.ac.uk
nor...@ling.ed.ac.uk (Norman Dryden) writes:
(apropos a weel-kent 'contributor to this newsgroup)
> Does your signature mean that you are proprietor of, or represent, a
> commercial company ? Does someone with your attitude actually get any
> customers ? I know nothing about your organisation, but from your
> contributions to this newsgroup, I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole.
Says it all, doesn't it?
RH
Adrian Hurt
In article <6lh4fj$r...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> nj...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( Robert Gormley) writes:
><snip stories of numpties>
>
>My own favourite is the own from MS support.
Whereas my own favourites are from personal experience:
. In my previous job, I was handed a Commodore Pet printer belonging to a
nearby school. The reported fault was that the print head would go through
all the motions but nothing appeared on the paper. The actual fault was that
while loading paper, the user had dislodged the ink ribbon. Once the ribbon
was back in line, the printer printed fine.
. Reported fault: no display on a VT-220 terminal.
Repair: turned up the brightness.
. Reported fault: no display from a Linux PC.
Actual fault: someone could not read the big sticker on the front which
said "Do not switch off".
Repair: switched it on.
--
"Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott
Adrian Hurt | JANET: adr...@cee.hw.ac.uk
UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian | ARPA: adr...@cee.hw.ac.uk
Rod Begbie
In article <CheetahPRO_...@blackcat.demon.co.uk>, mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) said:
> Since a HD works on a lateral motor system, fitting it upside down will
> only mean that the controller cable would end up the wrong way round.
One of my worst computing moments was when I was upgrading my hard disk
five years ago (to a massive 170Mb). You know how the power lead is
notched so that it can only fit in one way around... I managed to
unwittingly put it in the other way.
There was a bang, a puff of smoke, and a Rod in tears.
Rod.
--
Rod Begbie @ http://www.begbie.com |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Master of my domain
Rod Begbie
In article <6lhroe$5...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>, epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Brown) said:
> There seems to be an ongoing misconception on this board that a
> motherboard can 'give up' after 6 months or so. In my experience, and in
> the experience of two electrical engineers I know, components like this
> either don't work from day 1, or they last for the entire lifetime of
> the device (i.e. several years - by which time the kit is worthless and
> outdated anyways)
Big sweaty bollocks to that! As I said in
<6l9961$run$1...@glencoe.hw.ac.uk>, my motherboard (or it might have been the
processor - Evesham swapped both) died suddenly. I switched on the
computer one day, and nothing happened. It had worked fine for the
previous eight months, including the 4 months since I'd opened the case to
install a 3D card.
Rod.
--
Rod Begbie @ http://www.begbie.com |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| 21 years old, and I still enjoy spinning round on swivel chairs
Graeme Dods
Richard Tobin wrote in message ...
>I looked a bit futher, and found one installation guide (from SMC
>computers) which says "NEVER mount your drive upside-down", and another
>(for a Seagate disk I think) which explicitly said it could be mounted
>in any orientation.
>
>-- Richard
>--
In recent years (6-7) I haven't come across any hard drive that was too
fussy about how it was oriented. I have heard that it is preferable not
to mount them vertically, it's something to do with the gyroscopic forces
acting on a vertical rotating disk (it went in to great detail, but could
still
have been complete bollocks).
In one of my previous IT support jobs, during quiet times (which were
rare) we used to totally dismantle hard drives. The bearings looked
symmetrical so probably don't really care which way up they go.
The platters (once removed from the spindle) make a nice, crystal
clear ringing tone when tapped, they can also embed themselves in
plasterboard walls when used as Frisbees (not advised).
The best part though was the extremely powerful magnets, if you
can remove them without smashing them you'll find that for such
small magnets the forces between them are amazing (tip for the
dim: don't put them near your watch).
Finally, a lot of HP machines (mainly Vectras) have their drive bay
designed so that the ONLY way to mount drives is UPSIDE DOWN.
Have fun.....
Graeme
Mike Dickson
In article <6lngkf$p...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> Perhaps potential customers buying direct from Silicon has more of an
> effect on your own business than you would care to admit....
Since Silicon and I have almost zero commercial overlap, I'd say you
were talking out your hole. Again.
Graeme Dods
A Brown wrote in message <6llnoo$8...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>...
>mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>>Depends on the specs. Much like everyone else, I should say.
>
>Much like Silicon (about 500 quid for a P233, 64Mb RAM, 32x CDROM, 15
>inch monitor, 4.3Gb HD, FDD, 4Mb graphics card, soundcard, keyboard and
>mouse - if you build it yourself) or much like Dixons (comparable system
>(ready built for about 1500?)
>
>If you're spending several hours a day going over motherboards looking
>for soot marks then I guess it is the latter, but I am sure everyone
>here would like to see you put your money where your mouth is and tell
>us a figure for the above spec of machine.
>GtB
Isn't that kind of like saying to someone - "I can buy half a dozen planks
of
wood from B&Q for £40, I bet you don't sell a finished dining room table
for anywhere near that cheap!"
You don't seem to be taking into account the labour costs, the fact that not
just any old numpty can build one (although it's easier than most people
think). You have to configure everything installed (hardware/software), you
also have to (if you want to stay in business) provide legal, licenced
copies
of the software that you are supplying with the machine (not something that
Silicon have been too bothered about in the past). Can GtB honestly say
that the machine he built for a friend had only licenced software on it?
The majority of people out there don't have legitimate copies of their OS
of choice, unless it came pre-installed when they bought it.
On top of that, not all components are created equal. One 15" monitor
may well be half as expensive as another, but is the picture quality
comparable?
So a PC from Black Cat of the "same" spec. may cost half as much or
twice as much, but would they perform the same? As my old physics
teacher would say "You're not comparing eggs with eggs!"
Have fun.....
Graeme
Graeme Dods
A Brown wrote in message <6lhtbp$5...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>...
>Now maybe there was some loose shards of metal floating about in there I
>don't know, but I would have thought that it would be sensible to have
>exposed components pointing down, so if you do have bits of conductive
>material floating about, they are unlikely to short out components.
>
>GtB
Ever looked at a motherboard recently? Have you noticed all those nice
bare metal contacts round 80% of the components? Hmm, maybe I'll
stick my motherboard the other way up..... damn, lots of bare contacts
there aswell!
It matters little with the majority of modern HDDs which way up they are,
but if you've got "loose shards of metal floating about" then you deserve
to have your entire PC go up in a puff of smoke (I've seen it happen, it's
a strangely appealing sight).
Have fun....
Graeme
A Brown
mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>In article <6lngkf$p...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
>> Perhaps potential customers buying direct from Silicon has more of an
>> effect on your own business than you would care to admit....
>Since Silicon and I have almost zero commercial overlap, I'd say you
>were talking out your hole. Again.
That's not how it looks from here.
Come on then Mike, I'm still waiting, for some unfathomable reason I
want to buy a P233 with 64Mb RAM, 4Mb video card, 4.2Gb HD, soundcard,
and 15 inch monitor, mouse and keyboard, oh and a floppy drive from
Black Cat - maybe I like being patronised and being treated in an
offensive manner - I just want one PC for my business, and I don't want
any software on it - just a bare system - HOW MUCH?
No need to get offensive, just give me a quote...
GtB
Tim Bradshaw
* Graeme Dods wrote:
> In recent years (6-7) I haven't come across any hard drive that was
> too fussy about how it was oriented. I have heard that it is
> preferable not to mount them vertically, it's something to do with
> the gyroscopic forces acting on a vertical rotating disk (it went in
> to great detail, but could still have been complete bollocks).
This probably means you need to mount your disks the other way up in
the southern hemisphere too, doesn't it?
In any case, I've always found that the problem with mounting disk
drives upside down is that it's really hard to get the packs in & out
without dropping them on the floor.
--tim
Tim Bradshaw
* A Brown wrote:
> Much like Silicon (about 500 quid for a P233, 64Mb RAM, 32x CDROM, 15
> inch monitor, 4.3Gb HD, FDD, 4Mb graphics card, soundcard, keyboard and
> mouse - if you build it yourself) or much like Dixons (comparable system
> (ready built for about 1500?)
I love the `if you build it yourself'. How long does it take you to
put a machine together -- half a day? How much is that time worth?
OK, if you're a student or something, it's probably reasonable to do
this, but if you're buying the machine as a commercial proposition a
collection of bits to assemble is not an option (unless you employ
students or something to build your machines for you!).
--tim
Charlie Stross
In the name of Kibo the Compassionate, the Merciful,
on 12 Jun 1998 11:12:37 +0100,Tim Bradshaw
the supplicant <t...@aiai.ed.ac.uk> implored:
>I love the `if you build it yourself'. How long does it take you to
>put a machine together -- half a day? How much is that time worth?
This is an interesting point.
Last time I needed a new machine I headed over to Alva and came home with
a bundle of components. Along with a friend we gutted my old machine (for
some of the bits I wanted to keep), then bolted together a new one. Total
time was about three hours, though as we were breaking off for the odd pint
of beer along the way I guess you could say we weren't in any hurry.
More to the point, the biggest delay was in figuring out where to put
the decidedly non-standard kit I wanted to keep, and which cards to leave
in the old box (which later had some spares added and was pressed back
into use as a server). If it had been a straight build-from-scratch
with all the parts to hand, I think we'd have taken less than two
hours.
And if it had been a straight build-six-boxes-from-scratch with all the
parts to hand, I'd figure on an hour and a half for the first box, then
half an hour each for the next five.
Modern PCs are _really_ modular; as long as you've got a stack of
bits'n'pieces to hand, bolting them together is mostly a matter of
plugging yourself into a grounding strap and wielding the powered
screwdriver of DIY-assembly. (And, of course, making the usual blood
sacrifice at least once in the day -- as we all know, machines don't
work without blood being spilt over them :)
Testing is a similar issue. To test a PC takes time. To test six PC's,
however, doesn't necessarily take six times as long; you line 'em up
on a bench, plugged into a power gang, and turn 'em all on. Odds are
that at most one or two will have problems; those are the ones you
spend time fixing.
In a nutshell: it may take (X) hours to accomplish a task, but if a
chunk of the task is familiarization and learning it takes less than
(nX) hours to repeat task (X) n times.
>OK, if you're a student or something, it's probably reasonable to do
>this, but if you're buying the machine as a commercial proposition a
>collection of bits to assemble is not an option (unless you employ
>students or something to build your machines for you!).
Depends how bespoke you like your hardware. Most PC suppliers don't
sell SCSI-based UNIX systems -- at least, not for a sensible price.
-- Charlie
"Computers depreciate faster than you expect, even when you take
Charlie's Depreciation Hypothesis into account"
-- Charlie's Depreciation Hypothesis
A Brown
n...@ee.ed.ac.uk (Nick W Walton) writes:
> Don't you remember how expensive Military Lasers were in elite!?!?!?
Nah, just use Mining Lasers mate, a damn sight cheaper, and as long as
you are an accurate shot - just as deadly. The only problem with them
was they tended to overheat a bit too quick, so make sure those first
few shots are right on target!
Having said that, I never did find the cloaking device, maybe Silicon
could do me one at a decent price...
;-)
GtB
Mike Dickson
In article <6lpmro$e...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> >Since Silicon and I have almost zero commercial overlap, I'd say you
> >were talking out your hole. Again.
>
> That's not how it looks from here.
Yes, but you know nothing and appear to be loudly ignorant about
everything.
We write software. If someone wants a system of machine(s) to run it
then we supply the whole thing as a single warranted package. We don't
build one-offs for individuals. You might as well ask me for a quote for
a Black Cat Ford Fiesta.
Rod Begbie
In article <6lngkf$p...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>, epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Brown) said:
>mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>>They haven't. In point of fact I was in there yesterday, although not to
>>buy anything for myself. The outright drivel about being 'banned' came
>>from a congenital liar who posts to this newsgroup whose reappearance
>>has suddenly been noticed.
>
>Please refer to DejaNews - your own posts regarding your horror and
>offense at being 'banned' from Silicon's premises are still archived for
>all to see...
Doing a search for 'mike dickson banned silicon ~g(ed.general)' in the old
archive found me three articles written by Mike:
Silicon Group Lies - http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=261994723
Re: silicon something - http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=179294173
Re: RE :Silicon Someth - http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=178962684
In which he denies being banned. Perhaps you'd like to post the URLs or
Message-IDs for the messages where he is horrified and offended?
Also found was the following absolute belter, posted by Cameron Watt
(http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=178487169) which is bone-achingly
funny, and worthy of repetition for its shockingly poor grammar alone:
-=-
RE Mike Dickson. Mike your comments as regards my company would have
nothing to do with the fact that you were ejected from the premises for
some rather dubious behavior, ,:-)
I dont mind please post messages about The Silicon Group every day, after
all, all publicity is good publicity. :-)
PS: YOUR STILL BANNED!!
PPS if we see you near the shop, youll get the chance to travel, courtesy
of Her Majestys servants, AGAIN.
Shaf Rasul. Managing Director SILICON CONCEPTS (EUROPE) LTD>
-=-
I was on Dalry Road earlier today... their bouncer chappy's hair "do"
gets sillier each time I see it...
Dave Hague
Rod Begbie wrote:
>
> In article <3575bf3...@News.prestel.co.uk>, do...@doogs.prestel.co.uk (Dougie Richardson) said:
> > <snip>
> >Perhaps when you come in to collect your P.C. from
> >the technical support department you would care to tell us to our
> >faces that we are dishonest thieves.
>
> Yet another example of the friendly, service-with-a-smile attitude you can
> expect from those fine chaps at Silicon Group.
>
> Rod.
>
> --
> Rod Begbie @ http://www.begbie.com |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | I'm so desperate, I could do it with an artichoke
But Rodders- Remember how you were sacked from Comet??? Im not surprised
your single by the way- Ive had the misfortune to meet you, and I have
never seen someone who hides behind his news postings, piss themselves
so quick when coming face to face with the people he has slagged off?
Remember?????
Dave Hague
Rod Begbie wrote:
>
> In article <357d9855...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> jo...@runrun.demon.co.uk (John Wallace) writes:
> > On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:06:26 GMT, r...@begbie.com (Rod Begbie) wrote:
> >
> >>Yet another example of the friendly, service-with-a-smile attitude you can
> >>expect from those fine chaps at Silicon Group.
> >
> > thief? The point is simply that what people say online is rarely what
> > they would say or do in real life - that works both ways.
>
> There's a long story attached here, but once, after posting to this
> newsgroup that I'd seen a fistfight outside Silicon on Dalry Road between
> the manager and a dissatisfied customer, four members of Silicon staff
> came into my place of work to threaten me. Fact.
>
> Rod.
>
> --
> Rod Begbie @ http://www.begbie.com |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Four??????? Unless I am substantially fatter than I thought, it was only
two of us. Call me a liar Rodders- I'd love to meet you again, all FOUR
of me...
Dave Hague
Mike Dickson wrote:
>
> In article <6lh0gn$q...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
>
> > I am sure if you buy a component from Silicon, it is guaranteed to work
>
> Since I am not in the habit of repeating myself, if you'd like the
> lengthy list of the components that I bought from Silicon that didn't
> work then feel free to e-mail me.
>
> > Okay if my Harddrive spontaneously combusts for no apparent reason,
> > but why is everyone here obsessed with getting Silicon to pay for
> > fixing something that the user has broken?
>
> So try and keep up, will you? You're arguing about something entirely
> different to everyone else!
>
> Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Musselburgh, Scotland
> fax 0131-271-1551 - Columnated Ruins Domino - Mellotron M400 #996
Ahhhhhh Mikey Mikey Mikey- I thought this was a discussion and not an
argument? What exactly were you doing in the shop? You did'nt say.
A Brown
mike@blackcat..demon..co..uk (Mike Dickson) writes:
>In article <6lpmro$e...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
>Yes, but you know nothing and appear to be loudly ignorant about
>everything.
"Well my Dad's bigger than your Dad! " - Is this the best you can do? Do
you treat prospective customers like this as well?
Or has Mike Dickson Jnr. (aged 10) secretly been using his Dad's account?
>We write software. If someone wants a system of machine(s) to run it
>then we supply the whole thing as a single warranted package. We don't
>build one-offs for individuals. You might as well ask me for a quote for
>a Black Cat Ford Fiesta.
Apologies I had no idea, never having heard of Black Cat Software
before. For all I know you could indeed sell Ford Fiestas.
What kind of software is it that you write then? I have never heard of
anyone working for Black Cat except yourself - do you have a large staff
then?
I notice you have still not said what you were doing in Silicon if you
hate it so much...
Also, I did a quick search on the web for your company, to try and do
something about my ignorance of everything, and I found BlackCat
Software alright, but they are based in the USA. Is this the same
company or are you using their trademark without permission?
Just wondering....
GtB
A Brown
r...@begbie.com (Rod Begbie) writes:
>Doing a search for 'mike dickson banned silicon ~g(ed.general)' in the old
>archive found me three articles written by Mike:
>Silicon Group Lies - http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=261994723
>Re: silicon something - http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=179294173
>Re: RE :Silicon Someth - http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=178962684
>In which he denies being banned.
Well I would say 'where he moans on claiming he is not banned' rather
than 'denies'. However if the OWNER of a shop tells me I am banned from
HIS shop, then I tend to assume that I am actually banned, whether I can
sneak in there with a disguise on or not...
According to his argument, I guess if you were 'banned' from driving,
and you get in your car and do it anyway - and don't get caught - then
you're not actually banned....
>PS: YOUR STILL BANNED!!
What bit of this do you have difficulty understanding Rod?
;-P
GtB
Mike Dickson
In article <3581AC...@cableinet.co.uk> dave....@cableinet.co.uk
wrote...
> What exactly were you doing in the shop? You did'nt say.
Accompanying someone else who later went on to purchase what they were
wanting from another shop.
Mike Dickson
In article <6lu0va$l...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> epa...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk wrote...
> Apologies I had no idea, never having heard of Black Cat Software
> before. For all I know you could indeed sell Ford Fiestas.
Your ignorance is excusable. The rest of your juvenile nonsense is
probably not.