EcoSanRes: cold weather composting

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sudhirkashyap29

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Sep 15, 2010, 1:45:20 PM9/15/10
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Hi

I am looking for information and technical guide for composting toilets which should work in cold areas like Kashmir . There are Swedish Composting toilets http://www.mullis.se/ and i am told by them that they normally insulate the toilet well and have a small heater so the temp in the composting chamber is always more than plus 7 C . I need information from members who are working in cold countries as to how they have solved this problem and if there are any papers available with some facts and figures . These toilets are based on urine seperation and also a separate grey water chamber . This has been designed by Ecosans in India .

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Elisabeth von Muench

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Sep 16, 2010, 3:29:50 PM9/16/10
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Dear "sudhirkashyap" (I couldn't see your name in the e-mail?),

I have probably missed your earlier e-mail(s), but could you please briefly introduce yourself again?
 
Two days ago, I have uploaded a new document to our website called "composting toilets" (it is in our series of GTZ Technology Reviews).
See here on our website the technology review Number 3:
http://www.gtz.de/en/themen/umwelt-infrastruktur/wasser/9397.htm
 
Or see the direct link to the pdf file:
http://www.gtz.de/en/dokumente/gtz2010-en-technology-review-composting-toilets.pdf
 
The Appendix contains detailed information on suppliers as well.
 
This document was written primarily by Wolfgang Berger, the German compost toilets guru (who has written an excellent book, unfortunately only available in German so far).
I hope you find it useful!
 
I know that Wolfgang is currently busy with a project in Mongolia - where it also gets extremely cold... From my understanding in cold climates it will work too, but take a bit longer (of course) and insulation is more important.
 
Why are you going for composting toilets instead of the simpler UDDTs (urine diversion dehydration toilets)? Just wondering.
 
Regards,
Elisabeth
 
www.gtz.de/ecosan
www.susana.org (join our facebook page by clicking on "like")

 

To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
From: sudhirk...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:45:20 +0000
Subject: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting



 

Hi

I am looking for information and technical guide for composting toilets which should work in cold areas like Kashmir . There are Swedish Composting toilets http://www.mullis.se/ and i am told by them that they normally insulate the toilet well and have a small heater so the temp in the composting chamber is always more than plus 7 C . I need information from members who are working in cold countries as to how they have solved this problem and if there are any papers available with some facts and figures . These toilets are based on urine seperation and also a separate grey water chamber . This has been designed by Ecosans in India .


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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 16, 2010, 4:41:13 PM9/16/10
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Hi 

Just giving u a little background .

I am a Indian living in Sweden for the last 37 years . About a year ago i was approached by the Indian armed forces as they are having a major problem in toilets in the high altitude areas . India did develop some kind of a toilet which works on some system using some kind of worms which has failed . they are having  major problem in the areas which ahave heavy snow as they hav eno toilets and refuse is coming in the water when the snow is melting .

We proposed to them a composting toilets -which are available in Sweden but thse need to be kept warm for the composting to take place 

I am trying to find people or organisations who have experience and documentations to explain as to how the composting system will work in cold areas .

India itself is having a very major problem in ground water pollution and if this carries on we can have a big problem in the coming years .

I am not technical in this subject so would welcome comments from all of you who have had similar cases - for cold or warm climates as I think with our networking we could get some programs going . NMy younger brother is a advisor to the Prime Minister and the World Ban k for Rural Development and is called the Guru of Rural Development in India .He has written a very interesting book called the Rurtal Market Book which is being used even in the Cambridge University . I can take a lot of help from him in getting these projects going .


Rgds

Sudhir Kashyap

From: Elisabeth von Muench <elli_...@hotmail.com>
To: ecosanres <ecos...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 9:29:50 PM
Subject: RE: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting


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Kent Madin

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Sep 20, 2010, 5:31:56 PM9/20/10
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You might consider a UD toilet system where the urine is just run off into the rocks or down a slope in the mountains.  I don't imagine that an army base in the high mountains has to conform to all the environmental sensibilities.  The urine will be rinsed each year by snow melt and poses little threat to water sources.  Might make for some cool wildflowers.  The feces should be collected in containers that allow for maximum dessication in the dry, cold air.  You could build the equivalent of a solar oven which would efficiently dry the feces so that it could be burned as the cleanest way to de tox it or even as a co-fuel.  I imagine that the troops cook on either lp gas or diesel, but if there is  a boiler system at the camp, perhaps the dried feces can be incorporated into that combustion chamber.  A system that encourages dessication would allow you to then burn the feces periodically.  Again, not the nicest, but perhaps the most efficient.  Or, they could be formed into warheads to lob at the Pakistanis.   It's a joke, just a joke.. could go the other way, Pakistani's lobbing warheads at Indians...... just a joke.  ;-)

But seriously, one cool thing you have at high altitude is the UV from the sun (as well as the heat).  Very good at sunburning and sterilizing things. 

I wonder if anyone has thought of adapting a rocket stove http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_stove to use as a feces incinerator?  What's the heat source for dwelling units?  probably diesel or lp also.  The good thing about your situation is that since the users are soldiers, they are more likely to actually follow the orders properly about how to use the system.  Forget composting, in those conditions what's the point?  You're not likely to be raising rutabagas or cabbage up there. 

Kent Madin


From: Sudhir Kashyap <sudhirk...@yahoo.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 2:41:13 PM
Subject: Re: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 21, 2010, 2:14:56 AM9/21/10
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Hello Elisabeth

Thanks for your mail - i have also been looking at the links .

The problem in High Altitude (3000 -5000 ) areas are 

Temp up to minus 30 C  (snow for 6 months ) 
Very little fuel available as it has to be helicopter carried so makes it very expensive 
Only solar or wind energy available 
min 30 % less oxygen level 

The issue has become very critical as the Prime Minister is taking a personal interest in this . Appr 200000 soldiers are along the borders of China and Pakistan and they have no toilets at all -so are using the open areas . This is creating a major problem when the snow melts as this is poluting the rivers  
The army has been told to find a solution .

We have in Sweden very light weight cabins very well insulated ( U value 0,3 ) and had suggested these as living accommodation for the Soldiers and use of Solar and wind generation and they have liked this idea . Along with this the Swedes had suggested composting box toilets which have  a large capacity 2000 lit box which is ok for about 30 persons provide we could insulate the box and have a temp of min plus 7 C for the composting to take place .This temp could be maintained by using the spill heat of the cabins and having a very good insulation around the box . http://mullis.se/ Pls see this to see the composting toilets which are installed in Sweden in public places and are working in the winter .

Since this has not really been tested at low oxygen levels i am not convinced that it will work - it may work . That is why i am looking at learning form your experiences .Maybe you could put me in touch with Wolfgang or others who could guide us in finding the right solution .

The only advantage of introducing this to the Army is that the routines and maintenance will be followed and if successful could be introduced in  the rest of the country .

Thank you 

Regards

Sudhir

From: Elisabeth von Muench <elli_...@hotmail.com>
To: ecosanres <ecos...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 9:29:50 PM
Subject: RE: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting

 

Dear "sudhirkashyap" (I couldn't see your name in the e-mail?),


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Elisabeth von Muench

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Sep 21, 2010, 2:35:29 PM9/21/10
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Dear Sudhir,
 
Interesting problem - and having the Prime Minister interested in the toilets for his soldiers can only be a good thing - right?
Like Kent, I would advise to use UDDTs (urine diversion deyhdration toilets) rather than composting toilets in such conditions. Much less risky as they just require drying of the faeces and no biological processes whatsoever (i.e. no heat and no oxygen issues).
 
You can install the UDDTs inside of the nice insulated cabins as they are not smelly and they do not require a connection to the soil.
 
We have plenty of information about UDDTs on the SuSanA website (www.susana.org), i.e. drawings, case studies, photos, videos.
 
Just to give you an impression, have a look at these photos from ecosan projects in India (by various organisations):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gtzecosan/collections/72157613525771629/
 
There are many organisations active in ecosan in India which could be approached for technical advice, e.g. the Ecosan Services Foundation (http://www.ecosanservices.org/esf/)
 
Wolfgang Berger is also a member of this forum, so he may see your query as well and react to it.
 
Regards,
Elisabeth
 
www.gtz.de/ecosan

Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 23:14:56 -0700


Subject: Re: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting

 

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 22, 2010, 3:41:40 AM9/22/10
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Hello Elisabeth 

Thank you for the mail .

Where can i get some documentation and some photos for the UDDT toilets . And of course some documents or user statements for cold climate .

The Indian Army has a very special way at looking at things 

They want first to understand the technology 
Then they want to know who all are using it -they may even visit the actual user (specially cold climate )
They also want a very good price .

They in fact have designed some kind of toilets themselves -which i believe have failed and hence are looking for new technology .

Would really appreciate more details on UDDT which i would like to discuss with them as we have only been looking at the Composting toilets 

Regards
Sudhir


Biological toilets to be set up in Lakshwadeep Islands
New Delhi, June 30, (PTI):

Environmentally sensitive region of Lakshwadeep Islands will be the first to have biological toilets in the country for eco-friendly disposal of human waste.

The Lakshwadeep government has asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to install 21 biological toilets in Kavaratti and other islands.

"Biological toilets use a bacteria called psychrophilic found in Antartica region. The bacteria thrives on these waste and delivers a residue that is odourless, non-pathogenic and has no toxicity, thus making it eco-friendly," R B Srivastava, Director, Life Sciences, DRDO said.

"The surface water-level in Lakshwadeep Islands is one metre deep and as such sewage waste gets mixed with it. The Planning Comission was looking for a solution. This technology will help avoid this contamination," he said.

Human waste disposal, especially in moving rail coaches, is a burning problem. If not properly disposed, it can result in spread of water-borne diseases like typhoid, cholera, dysentery and diarrhea.

"Ministry of Rural Development has shown interest in this technology and Ministry of Railways has signed an MOU with us. They have asked us to make certain changes because other waste material like bottles etc are also disposed off in toilets of rail coaches," Srivastava said.

The problem is more severe in glaciers where low temperature delays natural bio-degradation of the waste and sunlight exposes the waste buried in the ice, causing foul smell.

"The melting ice takes the waste to rivers disturbing the aquatic eco system," he said, adding biological toilets was suitable for such areas as it treats human waste in a method that is odour less and free from pathogens and environmentally acceptable.

From: Elisabeth von Muench <elli_...@hotmail.com>
To: ecosanres <ecos...@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 8:35:29 PM


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Karsten Gjefle

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Sep 22, 2010, 4:09:28 AM9/22/10
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Interesting to follow your discussion on cold weather toilet systems.

 

Since we started looking at solutions for the mountain cabins of the tourism sector we took an interest in the conference about this subject that happened in the US over the summer - an associate of our foundation participated. From Norway there is experience on this due to our weather conditions and a research environment that has worked on this subject. If you would like us to set up a project development team for solutions that are suitable let me know.

 

There are good systems that can be put in place based on composting and/or UDDT.

 

Vennlig hilsen/ Best regards

 

Karsten Gjefle

Director

Sustainable Sanitation Design

Oslo, Norway

 

Mobile: + 47 410 42 275

Skype: karsten.gjefle

www.susan-design.org 

 

Due to our work environment this e-mail may contain traces of a safe fertilizer called urine and traces of solids now transformed into a wonderful and safe soil improvement product. Spread the word and we will do the rest.

 

Before printing, think about the environment

 

-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Fra: ecos...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ecos...@yahoogroups.com] På vegne av Sudhir Kashyap
Sendt: 22. september 2010 09:42
Til: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 22, 2010, 5:00:16 AM9/22/10
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Hello Karsten

I would really like to have inputs from your experience and advice .

There are very good insulated cabins which are made in Sweden with a very low U value - but like i explained the high altitude and a very cold climate and lack of oxygen can be a problem .

I have to first get the Indian Army convinced and for that i need documentation . If they agree then we could put up a few pilot toilets in the Areas . In fact we have a project ongoing where we are providing winter accommodation using the Swedish housing concept and we have included composting toilets  . But if you have a better tested technology in Norway i would definitely present it . Norway is more mountains and the winter is quite extreme . Based on that i am hoping that you would be able to give me some very interesting inputs .

One of the major issues in India is also that 95 % of the people wash themselves -whereas in Europe everyone uses toilet paper . so we have to go for Urine separation , grey water separation (3 hole system )

Regards

Sudhir





________________________________
From: Karsten Gjefle <kar...@susan-design.org>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 10:09:28 AM
Subject: SV: EcoSanRes:  cold weather composting


 
Interesting to follow your discussion on cold weather toilet systems.
 
Since we started looking at solutions for the mountain cabins of the tourism
sector we took an interest in the conference about this subject that happened in
the USover the summer - an associate of our foundation participated. From
Norwaythere is experience on this due to our weather conditions and a research
environment that has worked on this subject. If you would like us to set up a
project development team for solutions that are suitable let me know.

 
There are good systems that can be put in place based on composting and/or UDDT.

 
Vennlig hilsen/ Best regards
 
Karsten Gjefle
Director
Sustainable Sanitation Design
Oslo, Norway
 
Mobile: + 47 410 42 275
Skype: karsten.gjefle
www.susan-design.org 
 
Due to our work environment this e-mail may contain traces of a safe fertilizer
called urine and traces of solids now transformed into a wonderful and safe soil
improvement product. Spread the word and we will do the rest.

 
Before printing, think about the environment
 
-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Sudhir Kashyap
Sendt: 22. september 2010 09:42
Til: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting
 
 
Hello Elisabeth 
 
Thank you for the mail .
 
Where can i get some documentation and some photos for the UDDT toilets . And of
course some documents or user statements for cold climate .
 
The Indian Army has a very special way at looking at things 
 
They want first to understand the technology 
Then they want to know who all are using it -they may even visit the actual user
(specially cold climate )
They also want a very good price .
 
They in fact have designed some kind of toilets themselves -which i believe have
failed and hence are looking for new technology .
 
Would really appreciate more details on UDDT which i would like to discuss with
them as we have only been looking at the Composting toilets 
 
Regards
Sudhir
 
 http://www.deccanherald.com/content/78374/biological-toilets-set-up-lakshwadeep.html

 
Biological toilets to be set up in Lakshwadeep Islands
New Delhi, June 30, (PTI):

Environmentally sensitive region of LakshwadeepIslandswill be the first to have
biological toilets in the   country for eco-friendly disposal of human waste.

   
The Lakshwadeep government has asked the Defence   Research and Development
Organisation (DRDO) to   install 21 biological toilets in Kavaratti and   other
islands.

"Biological toilets use a bacteria called psychrophilic found in Antartica
region. The bacteria thrives on these waste and delivers a residue that is  
odourless, non-pathogenic and has no toxicity, thus making it   eco-friendly," R
B Srivastava, Director, Life   Sciences, DRDO said.

"The surface water-level in LakshwadeepIslandsis one metre deep and   as such
There are many organisations active in ecosan in Indiawhich could be approached
for technical advice, e.g. the Ecosan Services Foundation
(http://www.ecosanservices.org/esf/)
 
Wolfgang Berger is also a member of this forum, so he may see your query as well
and react to it.
 
Regards,
Elisabeth
 
www.gtz.de/ecosan
 

________________________________

To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
From: sudhirk...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 201023:14:56-0700
Subject: Re: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting

 
Hello Elisabeth
 
Thanks for your mail - i have also been looking at the links .
 
The problem in High Altitude (3000 -5000 ) areas are 
 
Temp up to minus 30 C  (snow for 6 months ) 
Very little fuel available as it has to be helicopter carried so makes it very
expensive 
Only solar or wind energy available 
min30 % less oxygen level 

 
The issue has become very critical as the Prime Minister is taking a personal
interest in this . Appr 200000 soldiers are along the borders of Chinaand
Pakistanand they have no toilets at all -so are using the open areas . This is

pas...@yahoo.com

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Sep 22, 2010, 5:26:32 AM9/22/10
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Hi Sudhir,


UDDT toilets for anal washers could be a challenge as most users either be it sweden or norway are not familiar with anal washing. The UDDt toilets solutions that are commercially available in europe will not be suitable for indian army. You may also have to consider squatting toilets for indian army soldiers.
Moreover, UDDT has been tested at pilot scale in various parts of india, which could be visited by the army people interested. Ecosanres website or the group shold be able to guode you on where these pilots have been done.

If at all the army would use uddt in high altitude low oxygen conditions, there still would remain a huge volume of faecal contaminated anal wash water to be disposed either into the soil or elsewhere.

Regards

Kannan



-----Original Message-----
From: Sudhir Kashyap <sudhirk...@yahoo.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com

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Elisabeth von Muench

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Sep 22, 2010, 7:55:00 AM9/22/10
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Dear Sudhir,
 
As I mentioned before, you can find all the information about UDDTs which you need on the SuSanA website.
For example, there are many case studies on UDDTs from India and other countries, see here:
http://susana.org/lang-en/case-studies?vbls=7&vbl_7=28&vbl_0=0
 
Also see here our worldwide project list of ecosan projects (29 in India, although there are a lot more - we just can't keep track of them all).
http://www.gtz.de/en/themen/umwelt-infrastruktur/wasser/30631.htm

Having anal washers is no problem - that's what the 3-hole squatting pans are for (as you mentioned).
This one here from EEDS in India is one example:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gtzecosan/3519343451/in/set-72157612793192986/
 
OK, then the question is what to do with the anal washwater. Probably take it the same place where you take the greywater: where does that go? Some form of soil infiltration I would assume?
 
My advice for you would be to identify the nearest ecosan project to where your Army camp is and then go and see, learn from others who are in the area and have the experience. There is certainly no shortage of ecosan experts in India!
Good luck!
 
Regards,
Elisabeth

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 00:41:40 -0700

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 22, 2010, 7:47:32 AM9/22/10
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Hello Kannan

I am presuming that u are in India . I could ask one of my people a Retd Col Dutt to communicate with you -as this is a major issue with the Armed forces and a lot of pressure is coming on them . 

Could i ask Col Dutt to contact you so we could jointly make a presentation to their engineers and give them a solution . There is a presentation planned for a group of Army  housing Engineers in Kashmir shortly .  I also know that they are having similar problems even in other areas as they are normally constructing septic pits which have not been maintained and have burst .I have been given photos of these .

If a system could be approved and tested by the Army -it will become a very good showcase for all public toilets .

In fact before the Commonwealth games i had met the people concerned who were also very keen on removing all water toilets to waterless toilets around Delhi -but there was not enough time to get it implemented . 

There is definitely a interest -but very little awareness and not very cheap solutions which are available in Europe - 
Maybe using your concepts with some alterations could be the turning point .

Regards

Sudhir

From: "pas...@yahoo.com" <pas...@yahoo.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 11:26:32 AM


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Carl R Lindstrom

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Sep 22, 2010, 6:01:45 AM9/22/10
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Hi -- I'm new to the group.

There are a number of Long-Term Composting Toilet systems in ski-resorts (Aspen, Copper Mountain, Sugar Bush) from way back where the toilets are actually frozen when they were use the most. Since it is Long-Term Composting, the interest is in the average decay over many years as opposed to weeks, months and the rhythm is such that the composting actually goes faster once the waste has been frozen (probably because freezing breaks up the cell structure and allows for faster decay once it happens).
I cannot give you any precise dimensioning rule of thumbs since it will still have to be adjusted to how high the use is and how it is distributed over the warmer/colder period.
Hopes this helps.
There are four CompostEra installations near the peak of Ben Nevis in Scotland (highest peak in Scotland) which is also close to the conditions described.

Hjärtliga Hälsningar,
Carl Lindstrom
www.compostera.org

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Kent Madin

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Sep 22, 2010, 10:05:06 AM9/22/10
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It's a very good point about the creation of the contaminated anal waste water.  It raises a major issue in the whole question of introducing sanitation systems.  There is a school of thought that you just must never ask people to change their current practices and so that means conforming the technology around those practices.  This can get complicated and expensive.  Just look at the 70k$ toilets for hikers on Mt. Fuji.  Or, we look at the most practical, simple, cheap technology and work on how to make the behavior changes needed for implementation positive, acceptable changes.  Not by dictating, but by demonstrating the overall benefit and efficacy through training and education. 

It seems to me Sudhir that you have a wonderful opportunity here.  Not only a challenging environment, but your clients are solidiers!  They follow orders, first and foremost.  What better group to work with, initially in test projects, where they are challenged to make the behavior changes needed to make the system work.  They would be motivated by both military discipline and the prospect of having a much more pleasant  sanitation experience.  Keep the test small, don't scrimp on $ and then let it filter around the army that X base up at 5k meters has a really good toilet,... but only works if you learn to wipe instead of wash!  It's not rocket science.  Offer the men the chance to chose... go shit out on the ice and rocks and carry your little cup of water or use a handful of snow OR.. use the new UD toilet properly. 

It's really a great opportunity to test the proposal that the solution is not fancy technology, it's education that leads to people willingly adapting their behavior because they see the personal and community benefit.  Bottom line, we have to make UD toilets cool, prestigious.  Good opportunity for the Indian Army to think out of the box.  

If the generals decide what system to use.. consider.. The general won't ever use the toilet and the men know that.  They know the toilet will be chosen based on theory (or worst, expense) and that the soldiers are expected to make do and shut up, even if it is a bad system.  The soldiers will have to make the toilets a success because otherwise the general looks bad, even if it's a bad design or system.  Whereas, if the system is introduced as a test option to the status quo this will drive innovation.  This is true in all engineering endeavors.  Make it a competition between two nearby outposts to see who can use the system best (or prove it is useless).  This is chump change to do such a thing. 

In the military soldiers are trained.. it's what they theoretically do when not fighting.  They learn systems of management from gun takedown and rebuild to maintenance of more sophisticated items.  The reason for that emphasis on systems management and consistency is that it is critical to readiness.  Sanitation should be seen in the same way and approached like any other systems management job.... training, inspection, training, inspection.  Soldiers with greasy guts don't fight well. 
Right now your PM wants to clean up the water, but your generals should be concerned about readiness.

Kent


From: "pas...@yahoo.com" <pas...@yahoo.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 3:26:32 AM

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canaday5

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Sep 22, 2010, 10:50:45 AM9/22/10
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Dear Sudhir,

There are several companies in India who make "three-hole squat pans" for people who squat and wash with water, so this should be no problem. See page 12 of the GTZ of Germany's worldwide list of EcoSan suppliers:

www.gtz.de/en/dokumente/gtz2010-en-urine-diversion-appendix-suppliers-lists-2010-02-17.pdf

Or for a quick view, without having to download:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:rBaWuLeax2gJ:www.gtz.de/en/dokumente/gtz2010-en-urine-diversion-appendix-suppliers-lists-2010-02-17.pdf+gtz+ecosan+supplier&hl=es&gl=ec&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESia1Azq65Ed9QPIb24h-lAlY_s1vSxGQe6WzPHE-0e6n845bvb0dcKmGayJDOfxtbLUMkY2wlZ0g9xPwi9vg5b8uLHxPiyPOGAzq48ytMUw1PGpxPZ1Z4G9rDBHo_n4rkz_Oc_E&sig=AHIEtbSt9vtTnoHDyMcf0qVBOYSjaOS7Bg

There is also great experience and success with UDDTs in very cold climates, so this should be no problem either.

With the help of EcoSan practitioners from cold climates, I trust a system can be installed that is not only effective and acceptable ... but also friendly to the environment and economically profitable.

Here are a few suggestions, to be confirmed by cold climate experts.

Feces and cover material could be stored in interchangeable containers (which could simply be rice sacks, or if preferred buckets or barrels) and stored long enough for pathogens to die before being used in agriculture, possibly after subsequent composting.

Urine could be stored for a prudent time for the pathogens (from potential fecal contamination) to die and then also be used as fertilizer in agriculture.

Anal washwater could go to soak pits, washwater gardens, or some sort of vegetated sand filters (which also continue to work in cold places during the winter).

I also recommend the Ecological Sanitation book, downloadable from www.ecosanres.org.

Best wishes,
Chris Canaday

> From: Karsten Gjefle <karsten@...>


> To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 10:09:28 AM
> Subject: SV: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting
>
>
> Interesting to follow your discussion on cold weather toilet systems.
>
> Since we started looking at solutions for the mountain cabins of the tourism
> sector we took an interest in the conference about this subject that happened in
>
> the USover the summer - an associate of our foundation participated. From
> Norwaythere is experience on this due to our weather conditions and a research
> environment that has worked on this subject. If you would like us to set up a
> project development team for solutions that are suitable let me know.
>
>
> There are good systems that can be put in place based on composting and/or UDDT.
>
>
>
> Vennlig hilsen/ Best regards
>
> Karsten Gjefle
> Director
> Sustainable Sanitation Design
> Oslo, Norway
>
> Mobile: + 47 410 42 275
> Skype: karsten.gjefle
> www.susan-design.org
>
> Due to our work environment this e-mail may contain traces of a safe fertilizer
> called urine and traces of solids now transformed into a wonderful and safe soil
>
> improvement product. Spread the word and we will do the rest.
>
>
> Before printing, think about the environment
>
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----

> Fra: ecos...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ecos...@yahoogroups.com] PÃ¥vegne av

> From: sudhirkashyap29@...

> From: sudhirkashyap29@...


> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:45:20 +0000
> Subject: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting
>
>
> Hi
>
> I am looking for information and technical guide for composting toilets which
> should work in cold areas like Kashmir . There are Swedish Composting toilets
> http://www.mullis.se/ and i am told by them that they normally insulate the
> toilet well and have a small heater so the temp in the composting chamber is
> always more than plus 7 C . I need information from members who are working in
> cold countries as to how they have solved this problem and if there are any
> papers available with some facts and figures . These toilets are based on urine
> seperation and also a separate grey water chamber . This has been designed by
> Ecosans in India .
>

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Kent Madin

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Sep 22, 2010, 11:37:25 AM9/22/10
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I'm admittedly speculating here, but I think that an Army base at 5kmeters is built on rock with very little soil which is unsuitable for gardening or on site reuse.  Many of these bases are probably supplied solely by helicopter, particularly in winter.  Flying composted feces and stored urine out is probably not a high priority cargo wise, even if they do tend to fly out lighter than they arrive.  One could argue that they fly the food in, so why not fly the feces out but for that to make sense the feces need to be as dry as the lentils and flour that were flown in. 
Solar powered dessication (both to heat the storage area and provide fan driven steady airflow), then torch it.  IMHO

Chris, I don't doubt there are successes with cold weather UD's but are there successes where you have year round cold conditions and steady, large scale use?    Kent


From: canaday5 <oma...@gmail.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 8:50:45 AM

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Vishwanath S

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Sep 22, 2010, 12:00:22 PM9/22/10
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Thought I'd put in my two bits here.


There is a bit of systems thinking involved. The place that the army men live is heated generally using kerosene.
All waters too are kept hot for drinking and for ablutions.  The waste are of two kinds , one in the barracks/place of lodging and one on patrol- of which there is a lot. Sentry duty is another challenge for people from the plains living in high altitude.

The stupidity of human kind in going to places not intended to be inhabited in such numbers being put on one side, a combination of solutions is what looks at.

Pee-poo bags are a great alternative especially for people on patrol and on sentry duty. There is a great challenge here since the snow melt has occurred big time in the Himalayas. In the interest of camouflage the bags have to have 2 colours now- white where there is snow and black where the rocks are exposed.

The traditional system is the septic tank or just a pit in the ground. Difficult to make due to rocks but still done.

The challenge is to use the heat energy available and design for decomposition if possible and of course to consider urine diversion.

There is a lot of work on with design students ongoing at the moment and hopefully we will have a range of solutions including ecosan.

Will keep you posted on progress

regards

PS For Chris Canaday in particular :)  one is flying below the radar for the moment 

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 22, 2010, 1:25:01 PM9/22/10
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Hej Carl

I am living in Stockholm - maybe i could call u and/or come and see u to learn from your experience . I also believe that there is a big potential for Dry toilets in India otherwise we are heading for a major ground water problem . I can get a lot of help from my younger brother who is a advisor to the World Bank and the Prime Minister for Rural Development .

I would like to discuss this issue for the Indian Army .


Rgds

Sudhir 

From: Carl R Lindstrom <carlrli...@me.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 12:01:45 PM
Subject: Re: SV: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting


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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 22, 2010, 2:34:39 PM9/22/10
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Hi Kent 

There are some social problems in India and then there is what the call the Scavenger Act -where human feces cannot be human carried or transported .Neither can we change the habbit of anal washing .

The Solutions which the Army has accepted quite well is 

3 hole system 
Urine separation and grey water to go down in the ground - so a infiltration bed will have to be made for below ground frost level .

The only issue which is being debated is what is the best method for treatment of the feces at that height and temp 

We have been discussing putting up 4 pilot camps from height 3000 - 5000 meters which will contain
One Officer Cabin with Toilet 
One Junior officer cabin with 4 officers and one toilet 
2 Soldier cabins with 20 Soldiers and 4 toilets
One Kitchen -with one waste management (again composting with water separation )

Each cabin will be stand alone so has to have its own -heating -electricity -and water (snow melting ) solution . We have found suitable equipment for all this which has been accepted by the Army . Where we are lacking experience is in the Toilets .We are taking advantage of the Solar and wind energy and using a diesel backup as the last alternative . the houses have a great U value which will give very little heat loss .

Why i wanted to get into the forum was to get advice from your experience -for the best solution . As this could mean toilets for appr 200000 soldiers
who are disciplined and results of this could lead to a change in India .As  this is a special project which is going to be monitored by the PM office -Success in the pilot project is very critical 

Regards

Sudhir


From: Kent Madin <ret...@yahoo.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 5:37:25 PM


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Kent Madin

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Sep 22, 2010, 3:04:29 PM9/22/10
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Hi Sudhir,
First, apologies for probably going off half informed.  That Scavenger Act is quite intriguing.  Still, does it preclude incineration on site?  Fire is the great cleanser, after all.  But maybe then the smoke draws enemy fire... quite a conundrum.  Will you be able to move the feces when composted?  Who's the arbiter of when it is no longer feces?  I still think you are better off to focus on solar dessication and incineration on site.  Once you get the water out, there is very little volume.

I agree that success of the pilot project is critical.  And for that reason I would, with all due respect, suggest that you do some real out of the box thinking on this.  The possibility to create change in systems that could emanate out from the Army's experience is very great and wouldn't look bad on the Army's resume with the public.  But the tendency in all these projects is to hamper the potential for real breakthroughs and innovation by requiring them to fit old models and social mores.  

Too many pilot projects are presented as a complete solution, already thought through by "smarter" people who aren't actually going to be participating in the pilot.  And I can imagine that being worse when done through the military which unlike business, doesn't like to hear bad feedback going up the chain of command.  Pilot projects need to be presented as works in progress and the "guinea pigs" engaged as active and valid researchers in that process.

I should have realized, of course, that there would be separate facilities for officers and enlisted.  Nonetheless, I would propose you consider this approach at at least one test site.  Arrange things so that at least the enlisted men ( if protocol won't allow officers and enlisted to use the same toilets ) can only use the new toilets on assigned days.  In other words, they have to go back and forth between old way and new way for some period of time until the system is proven and expanded or abandoned.  If you only have a small number of the new toilets, you can justify this as a test where proper use will "earn" more facilities.  This makes misuse self evident and creates a climate of self policing.  And leave a mechanism in place where the users can provide genuine feedback on ideas and improvements.  This is critical to people taking a sense of ownership in the facility and carrying for it properly. 



I would suggest this book to you, if available in your area.  If not, I would be glad to mail you a copy.
http://www.amazon.com/Switch-Change-Things-When-Hard/dp/0385528752

All the best.  Kent





From: Sudhir Kashyap <sudhirk...@yahoo.com>

To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 12:34:39 PM

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 22, 2010, 4:38:44 PM9/22/10
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Hi Kent

I have had appr 50 meetings with various officers and my people in India are in daily touch with them . According to all assessments we have given them the best solution logically .Which has been offered by some Swedish Companies . A composting toilet -where there should be a temp control to keep the composting going on even during the winter . But there is no one who can confirm as to what would happen with a low oxygen level . This is where i am having a doubt .

Maybe we have some members who have installed toilets at high altitude and would like to share their experience -so we can offer the correct tested solution 

Like u said this is a critical project so the best solution should be provided - which is tested .

I know that the Defense Research Lab in India came up with some kind of a anaerobic solution which has failed -why i dont know . They have tried some toilets which have electrical drying process -which are for very limited no of people and the load required was too much .

I am hoping that the vast experience of Ecosanres must have installed toilets in high altitude with success which they cna share with me .

Rgds

Sudhir

Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 9:04:29 PM


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Water b0y

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Sep 22, 2010, 9:36:56 PM9/22/10
to eco san
 

Dear EcoSanRes,
 
An Australian company are trying to source and market more sustainable forms of toilet paper.
www.whogivesacrap.org

Does anyone have any insights or info on cotton vs bamboo vs paper for anal cleansing?
 
Does anyone know any of lifecycle analyses of toilet paper?
 
Are there better ways?
 
Ro

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Margarettha Siregar

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Sep 22, 2010, 11:16:43 PM9/22/10
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Dear all,
Does anybody have experience conducting farming using composted excreta in peats soil?
My understanding is peats is already acidic and urine is also acidic while feces loads with organic matters that tends to be acidic.
We are trying to setup ecosan system in Kalimantan/Borneo which major soils is peats.  The aim is to reduce waste disposal on river or public space by having simple decentralized sanitation system and improve urban farming.
If you have any inputs or ideas please share.

Thanking in advance,
Margie

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Re-THINK before contributing to another waste

 

Margarettha Christine Siregar
WASH Specialist |  Health Team | MQS Department
WORLD VISION INDONESIA
Gedung 33, Jl. Wahid Hasyim no.33 , Jakarta 10340 - Indonesia
Ph. +62 21 319 27467 ext 325  | Fax. +62 21 310 7846  | Mobile +62 811 175 3974

Yahoo messenger ID: ratnasiregar | Skype: gie_asik

(due to cost efficiency and convenience please use internet call whenever possible)

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Our vision for every child, life in all its fullness.  Our prayer for every heart, the will to make it so
 

 

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Carl R Lindstrom

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Sep 22, 2010, 5:09:53 PM9/22/10
to ecos...@yahoogroups.com, Surendra Mathur
 

Hej Sudhir,


I would be delighted to show you around here in Tyresö. My phone number is 08-770 1530. Perhaps early next week would work out for you ?

My connection in India is to the former manager of the Indian Rail who, among other projects, has an interest in supplying the railway stations in India with Long-Term Composting systems. It would be a great exposure and simultaneously provide odor-free and safe sanitation for the railway passengers and the surroundings of the stations. The feces is typically isolated for 30-50 years and the liquid end-product is odor-free and bacteria-free for use in agriculture.
Cheers
Carl

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Carl R Lindstrom

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Sep 22, 2010, 4:58:43 PM9/22/10
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Seems to me that the peepoo bags need to be put somewhere not to become a littering problem ... they are not instantly disappearing or ?

Carl

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 23, 2010, 3:34:04 AM9/23/10
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[Attachment(s) from Sudhir Kashyap included below]

Hello Vishvanath

I think you are thinking correct . As we also discussed with the Armed forces -we are providing cabins with a crawl chamber below and we are putting the Composting tank in this chamber . This is well insulated and also has a heat source which we are providing .

The only issue is what happens when the oxygen level is 30% less ???

Bags I am afraid have been rejected by the Army .

Since the areas have Snow around 6 months of the year we are only going to do any digging in the summer after we know the ground frost levels . 

Like u said -septic tanks are impossible -but a sump where grey water and urine can be sent below ground freeze level is possible . 

We have the drawings and the concept ready 

link to the manufacturer of these toilets with photos of end product 


3D of the concept we have presented -attached 

Do let me have your comments 

Rgds

Sudhir

From: Vishwanath S <zenra...@gmail.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 6:00:22 PM

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Ralf Otterpohl

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Sep 23, 2010, 4:47:53 AM9/23/10
to ecos...@yahoogroups.com, h...@whogivesacrap.org, jac...@worldtoilet.org, le...@man.dtu.dk
 
[Attachment(s) from Ralf Otterpohl included below]

Dear Ro,
Dear All,

Nice clip! You are touching an important issue. The cultural gap between washers and wipers shows that both sides are doing something strange. Using dry paper is disgusting and only done because we normally do not see the results: bad cleansing and risc of anal cancer. After some years of wiping the behinds of my children frequently I realised that a moist tissue with some adequate liquid is SO MUCH better that I also started using it for myself. If I have to use dry paper this really feels bad and I remember situations with dioherra where even bllod came, blood open to shit, shit! Equally disqusting is the practice to wash with bare hands and even with good handwashing this is not really a brilliant idea, not using the left hand does not work anyway. Good for the bottom though. A mixed couple among our friends have long ago started to use little peaces of wet soft wet cloth that they put to the washin machine at high temperature once a little basket is full. Wet paper is on the market but not suitable for wastewater treatment plants of vaccum blackwater systems, it is simply too stable and clogs screens and pumps and pipes in the present form.

Now in my EXPERIENCE the future of Ecosan is without any doubt in Terra Preta Saniation that is under development (see workshop annouoncement, few last minute places left, else next year same time). This means that we need lactic acid bacteria into the toilet (they will be beneficial for conventional UDDT and pit latrines too). So moistening an adequate cloth with lactic acid bacteria that is compostable ideally having little nutrients (like paper), that is gentle to sensitive skin parts would be a great way forward. It must have food-quality and some good lactic acid fermenters could also be beneficial to re-inocculate the intestines of us carbohydrate overeaters (indication: gas production and floating bad smell feaces). Once the compostabe paper goes into composting it is beneficial for the most urgent need: producing better soils, not a waste any more. We need a lot of carbon rich material especially for the composting of the high-nutrient excreta.

Who does have any contact to producers of toilet paper? This is a really important and ignored issue. I want to include this into toilet development as part of an integrated system.

Ralf






Am 23.09.2010 03:36, schrieb Water b0y:

 

Dear EcoSanRes,
 
An Australian company are trying to source and market more sustainable forms of toilet paper.
www.whogivesacrap.org

Does anyone have any insights or info on cotton vs bamboo vs paper for anal cleansing?
 
Does anyone know any of lifecycle analyses of toilet paper?
 
Are there better ways?
 
Ro



-- 


Ralf Otterpohl
Univ. Prof. Dr.-Ing.
Director
Institute of Wastewater Management and Water Protection
*** focus on Resources Management Sanitation / Ecosan
TUHH Hamburg University of Technology, Germany
Leiter
Institut für Abwasserwirtschaft und Gewässerschutz
TUHH Technische Universität Hamburg-Harburg
www.tuhh.de/aww        IWA-ecosan-group:  www.ecosan.org
Phone secretary +49-40 42 878-3207
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for any kind of damage caused by emails from us
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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 23, 2010, 5:42:02 AM9/23/10
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Hello Carl

Thank you for your mail .Will call on Monday and fix a time with you .

The demand in India is really tremendous . I know that Railways are upgrading everything and have a good buget . I was contacted for 10000 Vaccum toilets for the new passenger trains but i think the composting toilets would work very well . In fact Ecosaner has developed some good ideas for 3 hole squat toilets -which seem to be getting accepted .

Will meet up and we can exchange ideas and see how to develop this furthur .

Regards

Sudhir

From: Carl R Lindstrom <carlrli...@me.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com

Cc: Surendra Mathur <sonam...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 11:09:53 PM


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canaday5

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Sep 23, 2010, 6:31:22 AM9/23/10
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Dear Margie,

Urine starts out slightly acidic or neutral, but when stored for about a week the urea converts to ammonia and it becomes very alcaline (pH 8, I believe I have read). Also, if the feces are covered in alcaline wood ashes, the product should also be alcaline or neutral.

So I do not think there should be a problem. Peat is low in nutrients, so crop plants should benefit greatly from proper application of urine and dried feces.

What plants would you like to fertilize?
(Certain tropical fruit trees may be well adapted to peat soils.)

You may be able to disperse the urine among the plants via perforated hoses, which makes things much easier for the user. I have been doing this here in the Amazon for years without the holes plugging. I think it is a matter of the high microbial and insect biodiversity, which you also have in Borneo. (Storage and the exact pH are likely not so important, as the urine would be dispersed in small quantities with each use.)

Wikipedia has the following interesting statement
"Peat is an important raw material in horticulture. However it is recommended to treat peat thermally, e.g. through soil steaming, in order to kill inherent pest and reactivate nutrients."
I am not sure how one would apply this to people's fields.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat#Use_in_agriculture

To get some background, I found the following info on the internet. Can you tell us more about your project and its relation, if any, to efforts to control carbon emissions from altered (and burning) peatlands?

An article from the Washington Post
"A climate threat, rising from the soil
Degraded peatlands in Indonesia unleash vast amounts of carbon"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/18/AR2009111804162.html?sid=ST2009111804211

Also this webpage of the GTZ German Technical Cooperation Agency
http://www.gtz.de/en/presse/30801.htm

Best wishes,
Chris Canaday in Ecuador



--- In ecos...@yahoogroups.com, Margarettha Siregar <margarettha_siregar@...> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
> Does anybody have experience conducting farming using composted excreta in
> peats soil?
> My understanding is peats is already acidic and urine is also acidic while
> feces loads with organic matters that tends to be acidic.
> We are trying to setup ecosan system in Kalimantan/Borneo which major
> soils is peats. The aim is to reduce waste disposal on river or public
> space by having simple decentralized sanitation system and improve urban
> farming.
> If you have any inputs or ideas please share.
>
> Thanking in advance,
> Margie
>
> Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Re-THINK before contributing to another waste
>
>
>

> Margarettha Christine Siregar
> WASH Specialist | Health Team | MQS Department
> WORLD VISION INDONESIA
> Gedung 33, Jl. Wahid Hasyim no.33 , Jakarta 10340 - Indonesia
> Ph. +62 21 319 27467 ext 325 | Fax. +62 21 310 7846 | Mobile +62 811 175
> 3974
> Yahoo messenger ID: ratnasiregar | Skype: gie_asik
> (due to cost efficiency and convenience please use internet call whenever
> possible)
> Log on to www.worldvision.or.id to start building a better future for
> children
> Our vision for every child, life in all its fullness. Our prayer for
> every heart, the will to make it so
>

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canaday5

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Sep 23, 2010, 7:10:51 AM9/23/10
to ecos...@yahoogroups.com
 

Dear Sudhir,

With the dehydration of feces in UDDTs, the lack of oxygen would be no problem.

Given the difficult access and the lack of local agriculture, I agree with Kent that the dried feces could be used as fuel. In this way, all pathogens would be destroyed and, in some percentage, the environmental impacts of bringing in and burning kerosene would be reduced. In any case, the dried feces (after let's say one year) would have no smell and minimal health risk, so they could be dumped at some distance from these remote camps, inadvertently encouraging the growth of natural vegetation.

Although the Army has so far ruled out using bags, I think this would be the most practical and economical solution (and all novel ideas must be demonstrated). Also, the bags permit gas exchange and continued drying, plus the sacks for carrying in food supplies are already there. The sacks could be tied shut with string, without having to touch the sacks themselves and they could be rolled with sticks (or moved by a vehicle) to where they rest for a year or more. They should should be protected from the sun (at least covered by a tarp), since the UV rays destroy the polypropolene fibers of the rice sacks.

What cover material would be used? I imagine that potentially almost none may be needed, given the cold, dry conditions. Air-tight flap or lid could be closed when the toilet is not in use, and fans could pull odors away from users. Avoidance of using cover material (which in this case may likely be soil), would reduce the volume and increase the value of the final product as fuel.

Best wishes,
Chris



--- In ecos...@yahoogroups.com, Sudhir Kashyap <sudhirkashyap29@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Vishvanath
>
> I think you are thinking correct . As we also discussed with the Armed forces
> -we are providing cabins with a crawl chamber below and we are putting the
> Composting tank in this chamber . This is well insulated and also has a heat
> source which we are providing .
>
> The only issue is what happens when the oxygen level is 30% less ???
>
> Bags I am afraid have been rejected by the Army .
>
> Since the areas have Snow around 6 months of the year we are only going to do
> any digging in the summer after we know the ground frost levels .
>
> Like u said -septic tanks are impossible -but a sump where grey water and urine
> can be sent below ground freeze level is possible .
>
> We have the drawings and the concept ready
>
> link to the manufacturer of these toilets with photos of end product
>
> http://www.mullis.se/galleri.html
>
> 3D of the concept we have presented -attached
>
> Do let me have your comments
>
> Rgds
>
> Sudhir
>
>
>
> ________________________________

> From: Vishwanath S <zenrainman@...>

> From: canaday5 <omaere@...>

> >> Fra: ecos...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ecos...@yahoogroups.com] PÃ¥vegne av

> >> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:45:20 +0000
> >> Subject: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> I am looking for information and technical guide for composting toilets which
>
> >> should work in cold areas like Kashmir . There are Swedish Composting toilets
>
> >> http://www.mullis.se/ and i am told by them that they normally insulate the
> >> toilet well and have a small heater so the temp in the composting chamber is
> >> always more than plus 7 C . I need information from members who are working in
> >
> >> cold countries as to how they have solved this problem and if there are any
> >> papers available with some facts and figures . These toilets are based on urine
> >>
> >> seperation and also a separate grey water chamber . This has been designed by
>
> >> Ecosans in India .
> >>
> >
> >
>

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 23, 2010, 2:10:10 PM9/23/10
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Hi Kanan

Thanks for your mail and sugestions .

Was trying to get more information on UDDT toilets but according to what i am understanding is that there is need of some covering material like ash which has to be used . This could be a problem in those areas .

What would be more suitable in cold weather a Composting with urine seperation or a UDDT  ??

Regards

Sudhir

From: canaday5 <oma...@gmail.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 4:50:45 PM


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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 23, 2010, 2:24:50 PM9/23/10
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Dear Chris

Thank you for your mail and valuable comments .

India again coming back to Social conditions will never accept - bio gas from  human waste or dehydrated human waste to be used as fuels .Even though Cow Dung is allowed (because the cow is considered holy )

Another issue which i am trying to understand is that UDDT toilets need some kind of ash or drying material which has to be used after every use -which may not be possible as such materials may not be available .

Since the Snow is for around 6 months and 6 months can be fairly good maybe there is some kind of cultivation or even dehydrated refuse or composted refuse could be thrown back into the soil -without damaging nature .

Food supplies which are carried there are mostly during the summer and are mule carried and it is only essentials which are dropped during the winter 

Again changing the mind set of the Generals is very tough . 

It is because of pressure from the PM office that they are even looking at other technologies . 

Where can i find a detailed paper on a good UDDT toilet and how it functions so we can discuss this with the Army .OR a good presentation .

What we have is - good solar hours and a good wind speed (for Solar energy and wind energy ) and very good insulated cabins including a insulated foundation where we can put the toilet container (we can technically maintain a warm toilet container as it is below the cabin and have a small heater )


Do let me have your comments 

Regards

Sudhir

Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 1:10:51 PM


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Kent Madin

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Sep 23, 2010, 4:19:57 PM9/23/10
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Hi Sudhir:  So ONLY cow dung is acceptable as fuel?  Not horse, or camel or elephant...? 
So with all these social constraints on the handling, use and transport of human waste, what actually does happen to all that human waste?  Do villages all have pit toilets?  Or do people just go out in the fields?  Kent

From: Sudhir Kashyap <sudhirk...@yahoo.com>

To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 12:24:50 PM

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Kent Madin

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Sep 23, 2010, 4:14:42 PM9/23/10
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Sudhir: You get composting when you have the right mix of warmth, moisture and aeration.  Composting toilets need some of that moisture from urine, so you either go composting or desiccating.  Not much room in between unless someone else knows more than me (which is actually a statistical certainty ;-) )


Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 12:10:10 PM

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Carl R Lindstrom

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Sep 23, 2010, 5:03:28 PM9/23/10
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Hi Kent ... yes they need those conditions but not continuously -- nature doesn't supply optimum conditions but you still get composting over time.

When we do Long-Term Composting the mass is frozen for several months a year...
Carl

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canaday5

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Sep 23, 2010, 11:09:27 PM9/23/10
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Dear Sudhir,

Like I say, these new ideas have to be demonstrated for people to accept them. Remind the generals that, if they had all of the answers they would not have asked you to give them advice.

About the prohibitions on doing anything with human feces, we need to remember that everything has an expiration date (even feces). These prohibitions are well-grounded in terms of transmission of disease via FRESH FECES, but after drying for a prudent number of months, they are no longer feces, but rather DRIED ORGANIC MATTER (which happened to have at some time passed through someone's gut).

This concern for disease transmission is reduced to zero if the feces are burned as soon as they are dry enough to do so, as all the pathogens would be killed. AND this can be done in controled conditions, to heat air, water, or something, with no risk of disease transmission.

BUT, as I mentioned, if the generals do not accept using feces as fuel, the one-year-old dried feces would have no smell and very low health risk and the containers could simply be emptied off a cliff, at a prudent distance from the army camps and rivers. (Civilians presumably live very far away.) These dried feces would be further sterilized by the UV sunlight and their nutrients would promote the growth natural vegetation.

((Many would say that this is not "EcoSan", as there is no reuse, but the nutrients would be reabsorbed by the ecosystem, with no damage, but eventually people can realize its value and use it to grow crops in the summer. In the same way, soak pits for urine can later be replaced by tanks for reuse.))

UDDTs are not complicated. Things get much simpler when urine and feces are kept separate. This greatly avoids the bad smell that got your project started. And the cold, dry conditions also make things easier, as there should be less tendency for the feces to produce odors and flies (especially as compared to the hot, humid conditions here in the Amazon, where we have to manage things more carefully).

Are flies even a problem at these high-elevation sites?

The two remaining points to be worked out (and I trust EcoSan practitioners from cold places can give input on these):
-- (1) Is cover material necessary in this case? If use as fuel is ruled out, there would be no problem covering feces with soil. BUT if a system could be worked out that does not depend on the user adding cover material, it would be less prone to misuse and mess.
-- (2) How best could ventilation be arranged to have a constant inward flow of air, without losing too much heat to the outside? One option may be a fan that recirculates air through a filter. Another could be a controled amount air going to the outside.

I still think that the most convenient receptacle for collecting feces in is the rice sack. This could set on a screen in the floor, open to the outside, in such a way that it would allow for (a) evaporation of humidity, (b) cooling/freezing of the feces, and (c) potentially to some degree pulling air and odors down through the pile to the outside (this could be achieved by putting a perforated pipe into one corner of the sack that alligns with a small hole in the bottom of the sack; this pipe could be recovered for reuse the next year).

Economy is one of the main criteria, right? What could be more economical?

Let's not forget about Waterless Urinals. Water must be scarce and this will facilitate eventual reuse. Also a large amount of petroleum must be invested in getting water to these sites.

I highly recommend:

Ecological Sanitation book
http://www.ecosanres.org/pdf_files/Ecological_Sanitation_2004.pdf

A video about EcoSan in India
http://www.ecosanres.org/toilettalks.htm

The GTZ of Germany's questions and answers
http://www.gtz.de/en/themen/umwelt-infrastruktur/wasser/26323.htm

There are some excellent Powerpoint presentations on a CD prepared and distributed by the GTZ a couple of years ago. Elisabeth likely has online links to them.

I trust that if any of my statements are off-target, other forum members will promptly correct me.

Best wishes,
Chris



--- In ecos...@yahoogroups.com, Kent Madin <rett139@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Sudhir: So ONLY cow dung is acceptable as fuel? Not horse, or camel or elephant...?
>
> So with all these social constraints on the handling, use and transport of human
> waste, what actually does happen to all that human waste? Do villages all have
> pit toilets? Or do people just go out in the fields? Kent
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________

> From: Sudhir Kashyap <sudhirkashyap29@...>

> From: canaday5 <omaere@...>

> --- In ecos...@yahoogroups.com, Sudhir Kashyap <sudhirkashyap29@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Vishvanath
> >
> > I think you are thinking correct . As we also discussed with the Armed forces
> > -we are providing cabins with a crawl chamber below and we are putting the
> > Composting tank in this chamber . This is well insulated and also has a heat
> > source which we are providing .
> >
> > The only issue is what happens when the oxygen level is 30% less ???
> >
> > Bags I am afraid have been rejected by the Army .
> >
> > Since the areas have Snow around 6 months of the year we are only going to do
> > any digging in the summer after we know the ground frost levels .
> >
> > Like u said -septic tanks are impossible -but a sump where grey water and urine
> >
> > can be sent below ground freeze level is possible .
> >
> > We have the drawings and the concept ready
> >
> > link to the manufacturer of these toilets with photos of end product
> >
> > http://www.mullis.se/galleri.html
> >
> > 3D of the concept we have presented -attached
> >
> > Do let me have your comments
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> > Sudhir
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Vishwanath S <zenrainman@>

> > >> Fra: ecos...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ecos...@yahoogroups.com] PÃÆ'Â¥vegne

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Lucas

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Sep 23, 2010, 11:35:34 PM9/23/10
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Dear Sudhir, dear all,
 
the statement that socio-cultural conditions of India make the use of biogas impossible is not true at all. We hear the same in regard to feces-based compost and human urine, and again it is not true. The taboos and reservations are mainly in the minds of the white-collar urbanites, government employees and middle-class mid-level co-workers of NGOs, and less in the minds of the populace targeted most, i.e. the rural, the underprivileged, those struggling for survival. Show the effect of urine or compost on a crop, and farmers are ready to use the input. Many of us from the West/North also have reservations about dealing with our feces (and urine), but we do not package it into religious and cultural taboos (maybe because we are less "religious"). Do not underestimate the readiness of humans to change and adapt and adopt when the package deal makes sense, which in general includes economic sense.
 
Kent, you must be aware that India has the highest number of people (600-800 million) who defecate in the open, and that there are estimates that everybody living in the environmental conditions of open defecation might ingest about 10gr of feces per day. We all, those who live in this environment, have our regular share of diarrhoeas and digestive ill-health. (Villages have no pit toilets. Villages either have enough shrub land and other vegatated land to hide, or women are desparate for privacy and security.)
 
Regards,
Lucas / Tamil Nadu
  

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

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Kent Madin

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Sep 24, 2010, 12:27:19 AM9/24/10
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Hi Lucas,
You touch on the impetus for my question.  If there are such stringent social constraints on handling or dealing with feces, then where the heck does it go, how can it possibly be dealt with?  It sounds like there is a disconnect between the social constraint and the realities of rural life.  I find your post very interesting.  Kent


From: Lucas <luc...@auroville.org.in>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 9:35:34 PM
Subject: Re[2]: SV: EcoSanRes: cold weather composting a bit off topic

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Lucas

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Sep 24, 2010, 12:29:01 PM9/24/10
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Dear Ralf,
 
thanks for the realistic comments on personal hygiene of washers and wipers.
 
And of course I am with you in seeing the future of ecosan in terra preta. Cannot help you presently in regard to procuring the ideal toilet paper, but would regard this development - the eco-friendly version of "Hakle Feucht" so-to-speak - as a great means to get ecosan to the Indian middle class urbanites... In my interaction with organic farmers in India - as a teacher of biodynamic farming, which, based on Steiner's claimed occult insights, has particularly great resistance against integrating human excreta into systems of soil fertility - I am touching upon the link agriculture-sanitation as often as our ecosan circles are doing it in talking on sanitation. 
 
Keep us updated of your workshop(s).
 
Rgds, Lucas
 

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********



On 23.09.2010 at 10:47 Ralf Otterpohl wrote:

Dear Ro,
Dear All,

Nice clip! You are touching an important issue. The cultural gap between washers and wipers shows that both sides are doing something strange. Using dry paper is disgusting and only done because we normally do not see the results: bad cleansing and risc of anal cancer. After some years of wiping the behinds of my children frequently I realised that a moist tissue with some adequate liquid is SO MUCH better that I also started using it for myself. If I have to use dry paper this really feels bad and I remember situations with dioherra where even bllod came, blood open to shit, shit! Equally disqusting is the practice to wash with bare hands and even with good handwashing this is not really a brilliant idea, not using the left hand does not work anyway. Good for the bottom though. A mixed couple among our friends have long ago started to use little peaces of wet soft wet cloth that they put to the washin machine at high temperature once a little basket is full. Wet paper is on the market but not suitable for wastewater treatment plants of vaccum blackwater systems, it is simply too stable and clogs screens and pumps and pipes in the present form.

Now in my EXPERIENCE the future of Ecosan is without any doubt in Terra Preta Saniation that is under development (see workshop annouoncement, few last minute places left, else next year same time). This means that we need lactic acid bacteria into the toilet (they will be beneficial for conventional UDDT and pit latrines too). So moistening an adequate cloth with lactic acid bacteria that is compostable ideally having little nutrients (like paper), that is gentle to sensitive skin parts would be a great way forward. It must have food-quality and some good lactic acid fermenters could also be beneficial to re-inocculate the intestines of us carbohydrate overeaters (indication: gas production and floating bad smell feaces). Once the compostabe paper goes into composting it is beneficial for the most urgent need: producing better soils, not a waste any more. We need a lot of carbon rich material especially for the composting of the high-nutrient excreta.

Who does have any contact to producers of toilet paper? This is a really important and ignored issue. I want to include this into toilet development as part of an integrated system.

Ralf




Am 23.09.2010 03:36, schrieb Water b0y:

 

Dear EcoSanRes,
 
An Australian company are trying to source and market more sustainable forms of toilet paper.
www.whogivesacrap.org

Does anyone have any insights or info on cotton vs bamboo vs paper for anal cleansing?
 
Does anyone know any of lifecycle analyses of toilet paper?
 
Are there better ways?
 
Ro



-- 


Ralf Otterpohl
Univ. Prof. Dr.-Ing.
Director
Institute of Wastewater Management and Water Protection
*** focus on Resources Management Sanitation / Ecosan
TUHH Hamburg University of Technology, Germany
Leiter
Institut f�r Abwasserwirtschaft und Gew�sserschutz
TUHH Technische Universit�t Hamburg-Harburg


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