EcoSanRes: Cold weather toilets

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 24, 2010, 1:21:36 AM9/24/10
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Hello Everyone 


I am sorry this was not my intent as i can also see that we are now getting in to Social issues -which are very difficult to handle .

My question was very simple 

The Indian Army is looking for Eco friendly toilets for high altitude (3000 - 5000 meters ) where the temp can go down to minus 30C and the oxygen level can be low by app. 30% . We had suggested 3 hole toilets with urine separation with a composting box which could be well insulated .I just wanted to know anyone who has had experience in installing these in high altitude and their experience .

We had even suggested -smaller toilets where the fecal matter could be removed from the toilets and put into a secondary composting box and this was rejected as no one is allowed to touch or carry this . These of course are social problems which i cannot change .

I have not said anything about UDDT toilets as i have really not understood the principal of it . Because the ones i have seen or read need extra drying matter like Ash which i am afraid is not available at those altitudes as the only fuel available is diesel or kerosene (which is also causing a lot of pollution)

Like I said at this stage we can present different types of solutions to the Indian Army and work with them to find the best solution in the long run .In fact if we are putting up 4 pilot projects we can have two with composting and two with drying .

I am no sanitation expert - we are selling complete houses to the Army where they have expressed a desire for eco friendly toilets .

So if i can get comments on type of toilets which would function in such conditions , I can present these . Remember in a pilot price is not the first issue - performance is .

For information on the Rural Sector and how it functions I would recommend all of you getting in touch with my brother who is a Guru on Rural Development in India and is a advisor to the PM and the World Bank and has written a very nice book called the Rural Marketing book . He and his team have a very good insight to how the Indian social system works and they have actually had some very revolutionary ideas in changing the social taboos . http://www.martrural.com/  .They are working with many multinational companies and NGO

Best regards

Sudhir

Jennifer McConville

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Sep 24, 2010, 9:40:38 AM9/24/10
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Hello,

 

Does anyone have numbers on global assess to specific sanitation technologies, e.g. how many people use flush toilets versus improved latrines? The JMP tends to lump everything into just improved, shared and non-improved. I see that at the country level the JMP provides percentages of people using flush, dry latrines, etc. but have these been aggregated to global and regional values somewhere?

 

Thanks for any help,

Jennfer

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Larry Warnberg

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Sep 24, 2010, 9:54:51 AM9/24/10
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Thanks to all the participants who have contributed to this lively
and interesting discussion of Sudhir's question. It seems obvious
that most dry toilet systems will have advantages over flush toilets
in cold climates by eliminating the issue of freezing water supply
and wastewater lines. But as a foreign onlooker it is curious that
there is a strong social taboo against handling/carrying feces in a
culture where anal washing is practiced. You can't get much closer to
feces than washing one's bottom with a hand.

For Sudhir, and others researching ecological sanitation, there is an
opportunity for funding innovative projects. The Bill and Melinda
Gates Foundation recently announced through their Global Grand
Challenges program a request for research proposals. The goal is to
stimulate development of the next generation of sanitation
technologies. Dry toilets must certainly fit. Grants will be for
$100,000 US initially, with up to an additional $1 million for
projects that show likely success. The deadline for proposals is Nov.
2. Here is the link for details:
http://www.grandchallenges.org/Explorations/Topics/WaterSanitation/
Pages/Round6.aspx

Sustainably, Larry
www.solartoilet.com

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Ian Caldwell

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Sep 24, 2010, 10:22:03 AM9/24/10
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Hello all,


Just a quick follow-up with the link in good clickable form! Some links sent to the group get passed through properly, but others get cut-off.  If in doubt, discussion group members can always use a tinyurl for long weblinks (www.tinyurl.com)



cheers,
Ian

--------------------------------------------------------
Ian Caldwell, M.Sc.
Research and Communications, EcoSanRes(www.ecosanres.org)
Stockholm Environment Institute (www.sei.se)
Kräftriket 2B
106 91 Stockholm, Sweden
Tel +46 8 674 7460
Fax +46 8 674 7020
SMS: +46 73 707 85 54
<ian.ca...@sei.se>
skype: ianmcaldwell
Partner in the Sustainable Sanitation Alliance (www.susana.org)





On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:54, Larry Warnberg <warn...@pacifier.com> wrote:
 

Thanks to all the participants who have contributed to this lively
and interesting discussion of Sudhir's question. It seems obvious
that most dry toilet systems will have advantages over flush toilets
in cold climates by eliminating the issue of freezing water supply
and wastewater lines. But as a foreign onlooker it is curious that
there is a strong social taboo against handling/carrying feces in a
culture where anal washing is practiced. You can't get much closer to
feces than washing one's bottom with a hand.

For Sudhir, and others researching ecological sanitation, there is an
opportunity for funding innovative projects. The Bill and Melinda
Gates Foundation recently announced through their Global Grand
Challenges program a request for research proposals. The goal is to
stimulate development of the next generation of sanitation
technologies. Dry toilets must certainly fit. Grants will be for
$100,000 US initially, with up to an additional $1 million for
projects that show likely success. The deadline for proposals is Nov.
2. Here is the link for details:
http://www.grandchallenges.org/Explorations/Topics/WaterSanitation/
Pages/Round6.aspx

Sustainably, Larry
www.solartoilet.com


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Kent Madin

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Sep 24, 2010, 10:24:38 AM9/24/10
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Sanitation IS a social issue.. that's the point.  Is there a rational argument for the taboo on feces transport or is it just a leftover from ages gone by?  It's amazing to me that a good general would be more intimidated by the subject of feces than the combined armies of Pakistan and China. 
I think some of us are saying that real solutions come when every level of user recognizes the challenge and the most practical approach.  This is what drives innovation in behavior and changes in social mores.  It's a shame the Army, as respected as it is, can't see how they could play a role in moving these changes forward.  It surprises me that an Army is more concerned about taboos than issues like readiness and effectiveness.  Even the US Military, with it's archaic taboos about homosexuals in the service is working towards changing because they recognize that readiness is served better by having trained, skilled, dedicated soldiers than it is worry about who's bonking who.. 

I don't mean to make you the defender of millenia of traditional practices...  

I look forward to reading about your brother's  website.
P.S.  Does India cultivate camolina? 
Kent

From: Sudhir Kashyap <sudhirk...@yahoo.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 11:21:36 PM
Subject: EcoSanRes: Cold weather toilets

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Kent Madin

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Sep 24, 2010, 10:34:37 AM9/24/10
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I'm guessing that there is an important distinction between your personal feces and some stranger's feces, but thanks for the irony. ;-)   Kent

From: Larry Warnberg <warn...@pacifier.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 7:54:51 AM
Subject: Re: EcoSanRes: Cold weather toilets


 

Thanks to all the participants who have contributed to this lively
and interesting discussion of Sudhir's question. It seems obvious
that most dry toilet systems will have advantages over flush toilets
in cold climates by eliminating the issue of freezing water supply
and wastewater lines. But as a foreign onlooker it is curious that
there is a strong social taboo against handling/carrying feces in a
culture where anal washing is practiced. You can't get much closer to
feces than washing one's bottom with a hand.

For Sudhir, and others researching ecological sanitation, there is an
opportunity for funding innovative projects. The Bill and Melinda
Gates Foundation recently announced through their Global Grand
Challenges program a request for research proposals. The goal is to
stimulate development of the next generation of sanitation
technologies. Dry toilets must certainly fit. Grants will be for
$100,000 US initially, with up to an additional $1 million for
projects that show likely success. The deadline for proposals is Nov.
2. Here is the link for details:
http://www.grandchallenges.org/Explorations/Topics/WaterSanitation/
Pages/Round6.aspx

Sustainably, Larry
www.solartoilet.com

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Recent Activity:
Archives are available at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ecosanres

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 24, 2010, 11:02:28 AM9/24/10
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Kent

I am an Indian and find it so difficult to understand India myself (though i live in Sweden )

We have our religion which has a deep embedded caste system -and then during Mahatma Gandhi´s time there was a big support from Gandhi  for the untouchables who were performing these menial tasks(they were called untouchables and he called them people of God ) - Then came the politicians and to win votes created these laws (Scavenger act being one of them ) to get these people´s votes  .This led to what was called Scheduled caste and today app 29% of the university seats , govt jobs have a special quota for these people . Now it seems to be becoming a fashion that more people want to be classified under this as this gives them preferences .

So I am not getting into the Social system -and how to change it politically . This will happen with more exposure and education and equal justice .Changes are taking place -thanks to people like my brother and all the NGO who are actually going to the field. and educating people . 

I just want to supply a good toilet solution for a project i have in hand .

Cheers

Sudhir
From: Kent Madin <ret...@yahoo.com>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 4:24:38 PM
Subject: EcoSanRes: Social Taboos and Constraints on Sensible Solutions


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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 24, 2010, 11:08:50 AM9/24/10
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Hi Larry

As i was explaining to Kent - India is very complicated -and a lot of advantage of this has been taken by the politician in misusing this . I am very well aware of the Bill Gates foundation as my brother is working with them to introduce computers in the villages . Like i said with education and the media reaching the villages a lot is going to change but it will take time . Much more than my time in the world .

Like i said i dont want to get involved in the Social aspects -as we could write books on this . I just want help in choosing a good toilet solution for our  project with the Indian Army which i hope can become a show piece for others to follow . Pls give me tips on Toilets for High Altitude -cold areas with lower oxygen levels .

Best regards

Sudhir

From: Larry Warnberg <warn...@pacifier.com>

To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 3:54:51 PM


Subject: Re: EcoSanRes: Cold weather toilets


 

Thanks to all the participants who have contributed to this lively

and interesting discussion of Sudhir's question. It seems obvious
that most dry toilet systems will have advantages over flush toilets
in cold climates by eliminating the issue of freezing water supply
and wastewater lines. But as a foreign onlooker it is curious that
there is a strong social taboo against handling/carrying feces in a
culture where anal washing is practiced. You can't get much closer to
feces than washing one's bottom with a hand.

For Sudhir, and others researching ecological sanitation, there is an
opportunity for funding innovative projects. The Bill and Melinda
Gates Foundation recently announced through their Global Grand
Challenges program a request for research proposals. The goal is to
stimulate development of the next generation of sanitation
technologies. Dry toilets must certainly fit. Grants will be for
$100,000 US initially, with up to an additional $1 million for
projects that show likely success. The deadline for proposals is Nov.
2. Here is the link for details:
http://www.grandchallenges.org/Explorations/Topics/WaterSanitation/
Pages/Round6.aspx

Sustainably, Larry
www.solartoilet.com


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.

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Lucas

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Sep 24, 2010, 12:10:32 PM9/24/10
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Hi Sudhir, hi Kent,
 
this is also in response to Kent's mail which was still under the heading cold weather toilets and read as follows: "Hi Lucas, You touch on the impetus for my question.  If there are such stringent social constraints on handling or dealing with feces, then where the heck does it go, how can it possibly be dealt with?  It sounds like there is a disconnect between the social constraint and the realities of rural life. ..."
 
Sudhir, your shortcut through India's recent history contained some unjustifiable short-cuts. Amongst my friends in India I have serious Gandhians; but when it comes to sanitation, they readily agree with me to disagree with Gandhi and to make space for Dr. Ambedkar's approach. Please read summaries in Wikipedia if you like. If you have more time, I recommend: "India Stinking: Manual scavengers in Andhra Pradesh and their work", a book (slim, 100 pages) by Gita Ramaswamy; Navayana Publishing, 2005.
 
Because caste-conditioning is still a reality in India, there were good reasons for the (anti-)Scavenger Act 1993. And because there was a good reason for the Act, we, the ecosan promoters of India, were so happy and proud that ecosan was officially integrated into the Total Sanitation Campaign of the GoI earlier this year, and that handling sanitized ecosan end products was clearly distinguished from scavenging.
 
What politicians and the politics of power & greed & corruption have made out of caste-oriented laws and benefits, is another story altogether and need not be discussed here.
 
The focus of my earlier comments - still under "cold weather toilets" - was in the statement "Do not underestimate the readiness of humans to change and adapt and adopt when the package deal makes sense, which in general includes economic sense." The so-called cultural or religious reservations that I do encounter in dealing with ecosan, or sanitation in general, or with menstrual hygiene management (supposedly another taboo issue), generally do not originate from the socio-economically lower strata of society (i.e. from lower castes and outcaste). They rarely can afford to have too many reservations; reservations are with the middle class (lower caste that have economically climbed up, lower class that has moved up to be middle class) and are projected unto the lower class, mainly, I guess, to avoid one's uncomfortable involvement in the so-called taboo issues.
 
The Indian army gets a lot of respect from the common man in India. As far as I understand, this is (was?) also due to the fact that caste conditioning did not matter or mattered very little; that corruption is/was not the rule; that the sense of service to the country, discipline, and respect for the chain of command is/was greater than everything else. That is also why I wondered about Sudhir's repeated mentioning of cultural reservations... If the army cannot do it, who in India can? Thinking of it, I know who can. Most change - of course except the change for "development", the quick buck, and overpaid white-collar jobs in IT - depends on work with women. (This is true for sanitation as well as for other sectors that need reform.) Not because they are particularly "down-trodden", at least not in South India, rather thanks to their amazing self-confidence.
 
And as regards Kent's question: Where does it go? With enough access to data, in particular regionally accurate data, someone might come to the conclusion that open defecation conserved, to some extent, soil fertility, or counteracted the misuse of soils by the Green Revolution. Unfortunately the benefits of soil fertility seem not to counterbalance the damage in public hygiene. Unfortunately, with people preferably settling along rivers and seashores, most of the excreta seem to pollute the water cycle instead of getting cycled into the soils.... Another book that I warmly recommend: A. Duncan Brown, Feed or Feedback, 2003. Telling the (hi)story of homo sapiens of the last 12,000 years, viewing it from the bottom end so-to-say. Combine it with David R. Montgomery's book Dirt, The Erosion of Civilizations, 2007, and you have all the arguments for all agriculture ministries of the world to adopt ecosan...
 
Rgds, Lucas
 
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

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Sudhir Kashyap

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Sep 24, 2010, 1:56:16 PM9/24/10
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Hi Lucas and Kent 

I think u have actually explained all this very well - I am aware of all this but am trying to get away from the why part of it -as that is a debate .

I have discussed with the Indian Army in detail to a very minute level . In fact here normally in composting toilets food waste is also thrown .The Army refused to accept this and we had to offer a separate composting box for the kitchen . Because kitchen staff will not touch a toilet (its just a box )

We even said that have smaller toilet boxes which can be emptied out in a large composting box for final composting -they refused .

We had to bend and accept the one box system -and this is where i still have a doubt on the performance of the composting toilets . I had literally shown them all the different types of toilets which i had seen in Sweden and Finland .

The Generals -sorry to say this -and the army after some time works on a single track mind and it is very difficult to change their mind set . I had presented to the Army a very nice light weight bulletproofing material from a Danish Company and all the junior staff (younger generation ) really liked it and wanted this . When  we went to the Generals their mind was all set -there is no better material than Steel . I showed them test results -weight reduction - Nato certificates that all of Europe has been using this for years -and his reply was I know there is nothing better than Steel . In fact the juniors told me to wait till he retires and try again . There is no democracy in the Army .

Like i mentioned the Army has agreed to Dry toilets - and urine separation and 3 hole squat toilets and have also agreed that we can make a filtration bed which will be below the frost level . I think i have managed a very good headway in the housing project and they have accepted the composting toilets as all others they have tried have failed . So I think now we should actually debate on Composting vs dehydration at high altitude to find the right solution .

Changing people and habit's is a mammoth task - I normally try and see where the meeting point is to make it in into an opportunity .

Lucas -really appreciated your mail on facts which is correct -because it was Ambedkar but i was trying to give a simple answer to avoid this discussion .

Cheers

Sudhir

From: Lucas <luc...@auroville.org.in>
To: ecos...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 6:10:32 PM
Subject: Re[2]: EcoSanRes: Social Taboos and Constraints on Sensible Solutions


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Kent Madin

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Sep 24, 2010, 4:42:22 PM9/24/10
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You have a tough job but I'm wishing you the best with it.  Those pesky generals!!!  Kent


Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 11:56:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: EcoSanRes: Social Taboos and Constraints on Sensible Solutions

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