Open Team at ECBU?

[Garrett Hubing]

hey guys,

An idea occurred to me today, one that we've tossed around several times but haven't really been sure whether it would be feasible.  I think we should quickly consider it again, right now:

Should we sign up an Open team for the ECBU in addition to the Mixed team?  

Since we are already planning to send a strong mixed team, the open team would not include some of the very strongest male players in Turkey.  HOWEVER, there are some very very strong players who could play, including:  

Moritz (would you be able to come Moritz?)

Mecit (he's in Germany and might not be taken into the mixed team for this reason)

Cem (askerlik, like Mecit he's being considered but probably someone able to practice will take precedence)

Celal (etc. in Germany)

ODTÜ's fantastic new players (one or two of whom will probably make it into the mixed team, but there are some very athletic and intelligent players who won't make it)

Anyone else not chosen for the mixed team (many good candidates--not quite the best players in Turkey but solid, athletic and motivated).

On my list I see 20-21 potential players after taking out 9 men for the mixed team. If 13-14 of these people can come, that would be enough.  We could even add a pickup player (our foreigner's quota would allow one completely unrelated foreigner I think)--maybe one of Moritz's friends.

If Moritz can come, he could captain the team.  He's been playing and practicing hard, and would make a very solid leader for the team.  

The catch is that we would need to register the team and pay the fees within the next 5 days.........  So we need a quick decision.  Thoughts?  Moritz would you be able/willing to come and captain an open team?

Garrett

[Garrett Hubing]

If you say "let's try it", I can  immediately write a message to 15-20 players (some of whom still have chances for the mixed team) and ask if they would potentially be interested in playing open if they are not selected for the mixed team.  

But I guess this all depends on Moritz, so I probably should have asked him before sending this mail :)  Moritz?

Of course, you can also say "I don't think we should do this, I think we should focus on a single, strong national team".  I can see the merit to that argument, but it seems like if we have such a large pool of players wanting to go, and we have the opportunity to send them, we should at least consider it.  

-g

2013/1/25 Garrett Hubing <ghu...@gmail.com>

[Tunca Çaylant]

Garrett hi,

At the initial phase when Yiğit/ORD was in contact with Pedro from BULA, we were talking about sending an Open team besides the Mixed team considering there would be enough interest. However as time goes by the overall interest decreased steadily. At least this is the situation in İstanbul. Nowadays, we can't have regular practices due to several reasons. A bunch of more enthusiastic people are just trying to catch up, that's what I see.

In addition we're seeking sponsorship opportunities firmly for the mixed team. If we happen to succeed, the people selected for the mixed team will pump up, I believe.

Whilst all those happening, a non-sponsored Open team consisting of players geographically away from each other (Celal, Mecit, Moritz in Germany + İstanbul people + Ankara people) who will have problems to train as a "team" and who will cover all expenses themselves, doesn't sound so feasible to me. I mean at this point at least. If we had kicked off the process like "ORD is sending two teams to ECBU: one Mixed and one Open" the situation could have been much different than now.

Arranging a sponsorship is not guaranteed, I know. But if it happens the decision to split the money between two teams is an alternative, which you, as coaches, and the ORD Board might consider, too. That might be a way to motivate the thought Open team.

Lastly to speak on my part, I'd welcome Moritz as the captain and love to go with Open team if I can't make it for the Mixed team. But as I made my point, I doubt the efficiency of that team.

Tunca

[Garrett Hubing]

It's true that the open division is more competitive and our team would be less cohesive than the mixed team, meaning they might not win any games (or just one or two against very new countries).  

I suspect that in the spring, motivation will ramp up in both Istanbul and Ankara.  People knowing they are going to play in a big tournament might help that (the mixed and open team players would of course practice together most of the time).  

But I understand what you mean.  Let's see what the others think.  

If we got sponsored yeah, we could split the mone among the teams (or do it informally--if a sponsor responds to our request for money that only mentioned the mixed team, we could informally distribute it to some costs for the open team as well).  

-g

2013/1/25 Tunca Çaylant <tunc...@gmail.com>

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[Eylem Caner]

I don't support this idea.

I don't support splitting sponsor money if it happens, unless the sponsors agree to sponsor both teams. We will be sending a team so that these players aren't left out, which is a nice thing, but in principal it is the opposite of what should be done. 

I don't support sending an official national team to a Championship tournament like we're sending a team to Windmill. Found at the last minutes with players who can make it, to me is not the way to handle an official national team. 

Windmill registration is open till the end of February, and we were talking with Oktay that a team should go there with he TNT name anyway so we don't lose our bid for future tournaments. That is a much better idea than sending a weaker team in a more competitive division and to a more expensive tournament. More people can make it to Windmill, if they fall short, there are much more options for pickup, I know a lot of players are looking for tournaments to go to.

As I've said, of course if people want to do it, go for it, but I do not support the idea. 

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Eylem Caner

http://www.eylemplani.com
http://www.laffultimate.com

[Garrett Hubing]

I understand, it's not really the idea of a National Team.  Maybe you're right.

I don't see it as anyone's "responsibility" to find a replacement tournament, it just seems like a missed opportunity that we have 20 guys wanting to work hard and prepare for the ECBU who are going to be told "nope, you didn't make the team".  That in and of itself is not a problem--that's how national team selection works--but the fact is that these 20 people will, because of this, not practice hard in the spring, and not develop as players, and that's troubling.  If they have a goal, they will practice hard and develop.  It could make a pretty big difference for Turkish ultimate.  

I don't have a solution.  Sending an open team to ECBU would solve this problem, but I understand the disadvantages Eylem and Tunca have mentioned.  I don't think Windmill would have the same advantages (and I doubt we can convince the players in question to go to Windmill).  Nobody playing at the ECBU would be able to go to the Windmill Windup (it's the week beforehand), so we would still be sending a weaker team--in fact a weaker team than last year, which I don't see the point in.  

 Maybe we should just continue as planned and try to send some of our club teams individually to Europe this year (or as limited combinations, maybe "Ankara", for instance) to tournaments later in the summer, after the ECBU.

-g

2013/1/25 Eylem Caner <egl...@gmail.com>

[Eylem Caner]

Well, what you're saying makes a lot of sense and does make me less skeptical about the idea.

But I think, at this point if this is going to happen, both teams should be treated separately, apart from players who can't make it to Mixed going to the Open team if they want to, we shouldn't be involved.

If someone (Moritz? :)) takes on full responsibility in arranging, registering and building the team, he should go for it. Of course we will practice together etc., I'm just talking logistics wise.

But for instance, us increasing our numbers in our sponsorship documents might decrease our already very low chances in getting any, we will already be asking for 50k liras, now it will go up to a 100 etc., and there are very few sports where there is more than 1 division of play going on at the same time, so they might not understand why we're sending 2 teams etc..

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Eylem Caner

http://www.eylemplani.com
http://www.laffultimate.com

[Eylem Caner]

And I'm sorry but looking at this list, and also considering the RiseUp crew being around there, anyone who doesn't get excited Windmill is dumb.. This is one of the highest level ultimate tournament in Europe apart from the Championship series. Look at how many Championship series teams are going (that black half circle symbol means hey played in the series). 

People need to follow European Ultimate more.

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Eylem Caner

http://www.eylemplani.com
http://www.laffultimate.com

[Eylem Caner]

forgot the list, sorry

http://ffindr.com/nl/event/windmill-windup-amsterdam-2013

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Eylem Caner

http://www.eylemplani.com
http://www.laffultimate.com

[Eylem Caner]

Of course I'm not saying windmill is the same as ECBU, but I would put it as one of the next best things in Europe. I'm just saying it is also a great tournament to set goals for.

Also, this solution leaves out the ladies who will not be able to make the team. They will be few in numbers, but maybe a cheaper European tournament my garner some interest from few other ladies and a mixed team can be sent.

Sorry for all the emails, I'll shut up now.

[Tunca Çaylant]

Putting the input for 2 teams to sponsorship documents and asking for 100k TL, will most probably suck.

I believe we should go to potential sponsors with a good looking query for a "National-to be-Team" and try to get it.

We can discuss whether splitting this money or not, if we get it, but asking the sponsorship of both teams would not be feasible.

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Eylem Caner <egl...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Huseyin Camalan]

Sorry if this mail is behind some of the replies, you people write too fast...

To be frank, I'm a bit ambivalent on this.

From the top of my head, I'm guessing that there are probably about 20 or so men that are determined to go to ECBU with the mixed team, and only about half will actually get a spot. That means about 10 men will still be working hard and practicing while not getting in. Along with those are skilled players that don't come to practice for ECBU. Even if we have a 15-player team two thirds of which are composed of determined players, I think that's a good enough justification. (This goes along with what Garrett said in his previous e-mail, sorry for rewriting but I can't catch up with the speed of mails)

I disagree with the comments that say that it isn't ORD's responsibility to find tournaments for other players in Turkey. As stated in ORD's website, two of the major goals of this association is to promote Ultimate in Turkey and to promote Turkey's image and name in international tournaments. Thus, I think it's unnecessary to have a strict approach. Whether it is Windmill, ECBU or a minor tournament in Germany, ORD should provide guidance to (Turkish(ish)) players that are interested in playing in tournaments abroad. However, sponsorship money should be (if not completely, mostly) spent for the mixed team as planned earlier. This doesn't mean that new sponsorships can be seeked for a possible open team.

As a player and as Hüseyin, however, I would favor playing in a team at Windmill Windup. In fact, even if I didn't get to play at Windmill, I probably wouldn't be too interested in playing at ECBU. It's cheaper for players (right?), allows a larger team (~18-20 instead of ~12-14) and keeps our bid to Windmill for future years.

However, like what the other people have said, this depends on what these people are actually willing to do. Garrett, perhaps you could contact these people on your list and see what their preferences are?

Hüseyin

[Garrett Hubing]

Just a couple of clarifications:  

It's not 10 male players who will not make the ECBU team, it's 20.  I have around 35 people on my list of people interested (a few of those probably actually can't come, but let's say 30).  Most likely 9 will make it onto the ECBU team.  

Nobody going to ECBU will be able to go to Windmill, meaning if we send a team this year it will be weaker than last year's team.  Last year we took last place.  

-g

2013/1/25 Huseyin Camalan <hus...@gmail.com>

[Ebru Yücesar]

You have 35 people on your list Garrett, they are interested but just interested. Most of them don't even attend practices anyways let alone doing individual work-outs etc. 

My idea would be, if there is enough interest after the ECBU selection, they can form a team and go to a tournament in Europe. 

2013/1/25 Garrett Hubing <ghu...@gmail.com>

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[Garrett Hubing]

we would only be sending around 13 people of those 26.  I think there are 13 who would put in effort and prepare.

However, I am leaning toward being against the idea of sending an Open team, based on the arguments presented.  

What I do not think we should do is try to find a "replacement" tournament only for the people who don't make it onto the ECBU team.  If anything, we should try to find several different tournaments, at different times (not conflicting with the ECBU like Windmill does), with less strict selection processes, that many of the non-ECBU people can go to together with some of the ECBU people.  

-g

2013/1/25 Ebru Yücesar <ebru.y...@gmail.com>

[Garrett Hubing]

Okay, it looks like people generally agree that we should not try to send an open team.  Our time is just about up anyway, and there's been no response from most people (if we were going to do this we would have had to act very quickly).  

So, onward with the Mixed preparations.  

2013/1/25 Garrett Hubing <ghu...@gmail.com>

[Cem Gurses]

Hi people,

Last night i saw a dream about ultimate that a group of people having some serious practice and playing ultimate(i was watching from a higher ground) and as i remember it was a mixed team(i saw women trying to read the disc as well as men at one of the drills) and i saw Garrett at the beginning that he was attending to the field with a huge practice case(it was big as himself). Apart from that i remember from the same group or not? some people having some party with funny costumes and shooting a fun video. Well i don't remember the details much as it was a dream =) but i think i miss practicing/playing and partying a lot..

Good luck to the team and practice/play hard for me as well!!!

Corporal Cem

ps: i'm not getting in shape as i thought before because we don't do any sports(running,etc) much. I've just tried to teach&play ultimate once here. Maybe i will have a chance to do more when the weather gets better.

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From: Garrett Hubing <ghu...@gmail.com>
To: ecbu201...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Huseyin Camalan <hus...@gmail.com>; Tunca Çaylant <tunc...@gmail.com>; moritz <More...@gmx.de>; Melanie Wrigglesworth <wriggl...@me.com>; "<abdulm...@hotmail.com>" <abdulm...@hotmail.com>; Emre Can <emrec...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: Open Team at ECBU?