Alternative PCI card to interface with Biopac
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ekwing
May 21, 2014, 12:00:16 PM5/21/14
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Hello,
First, I realize this question is a bit atypical as it's hardware, however, after talking with Biopac and local Tech services I wanted to make sure none of you had encountered the same issue and found a better solution.
Our current set-up for port forwarding involves a direct connection between a NI PCI-6503 card via the E-Prime computer's PCI slot and the MP150 25-pin printer port. However, we are currently in the process of upgrading our computers, and the new computers have a slimmer shell/tower that is not physically large enough to house the PCI-6503 in the PCI slot.
Because, according to the E-Prime knowledge base, a USB to Parallel connection will not work, the only solution we have come up with so far is to purchase two of these (we have two set-ups).
So, to simplify, my main question is this- Does anyone know of an alternative interface card that will adequately replace the NI PCI-6503 that comes in a low-form factor design? If curious, the new computers are Dell Optiplex 380s.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
Paul Groot
May 22, 2014, 6:49:28 AM5/22/14
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Hi Erik,
Best,
Paul
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David McFarlane
May 22, 2014, 11:58:27 AM5/22/14
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As Paul said, installing a simple parallel port
adapter may do what you need here. You could use
that from E-Prime using the older Port Device, or
the using newer ParallelPort Device, perhaps
combined with the newer Task Events feature.
But, if you don't mind, I'm a bit curious, and I
would like to pass on some other
information. So, you currently use the NI
PCI-6503, which provides 24 bits of digital
I/O. How do you use that with E-Prime? Do you
just addres it with the E-Prime Port Device? Or
does the NI PCI-6503 come with its own routine
library that you must call from E-Prime? How do you do that?
If you really need a replacement for the NI
PCI-6503, and do not mind calling external
library routines from E-Prime, then you could
look at various devices from Measurement
Computing (http://www.mccdaq.com/ ) or LabJack
(http://labjack.com/ ). These companies offer
devices that connect to any computer via USB to
provide digital I/O. You then control them from
E-Prime using the supplied libraries. We have
had good results using a D/A USB device from
Measurement Computing, I would would expect
similar good resutls with their digital I/O devices.
-----
David McFarlane
E-Prime training
online: http://psychology.msu.edu/Workshops_Courses/eprime.aspx
Twitter: @EPrimeMaster (https://twitter.com/EPrimeMaster)
/----
Stock reminder: 1) I do not work for PST. 2)
PST's trained staff take any and all questions at
https://support.pstnet.com , and they strive to
respond to all requests in 24-48 hours, so make
full use of it. 3) In addition, PST offers
several instructional videos on their YouTube
channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/PSTNET
). 4) If you do get an answer from PST staff,
please extend the courtesy of posting their reply
back here for the sake of others.
\----
At 5/22/2014 06:49 AM Thursday, Paul Groot wrote:
>Hi Erik,
>
>We just use a simple parallel port adapter card
>to be used in a PCI slot (From Startech, but If
>I remember correctly, PST has a list on their
>website with compatible cards.) If the optiplex
>comes with a built-in parallel port, their is no
>need to use the PCI card to add an additional
>port anyway. In our setup, we only use the 8
>databits as output from the PC to the biopac
>system, using a customized cable. Biopac also
>offers a cable that can be used without
>modifications to have 8 output and 4 inputs:
><http://www.biopac.com/Product_Spec_PDF/STP100C.pdf>http://www.biopac.com/Product_Spec_PDF/STP100C.pdf.
adapter may do what you need here. You could use
that from E-Prime using the older Port Device, or
the using newer ParallelPort Device, perhaps
combined with the newer Task Events feature.
But, if you don't mind, I'm a bit curious, and I
would like to pass on some other
information. So, you currently use the NI
PCI-6503, which provides 24 bits of digital
I/O. How do you use that with E-Prime? Do you
just addres it with the E-Prime Port Device? Or
does the NI PCI-6503 come with its own routine
library that you must call from E-Prime? How do you do that?
If you really need a replacement for the NI
PCI-6503, and do not mind calling external
library routines from E-Prime, then you could
look at various devices from Measurement
Computing (http://www.mccdaq.com/ ) or LabJack
(http://labjack.com/ ). These companies offer
devices that connect to any computer via USB to
provide digital I/O. You then control them from
E-Prime using the supplied libraries. We have
had good results using a D/A USB device from
Measurement Computing, I would would expect
similar good resutls with their digital I/O devices.
-----
David McFarlane
E-Prime training
online: http://psychology.msu.edu/Workshops_Courses/eprime.aspx
Twitter: @EPrimeMaster (https://twitter.com/EPrimeMaster)
/----
Stock reminder: 1) I do not work for PST. 2)
PST's trained staff take any and all questions at
https://support.pstnet.com , and they strive to
respond to all requests in 24-48 hours, so make
full use of it. 3) In addition, PST offers
several instructional videos on their YouTube
channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/PSTNET
). 4) If you do get an answer from PST staff,
please extend the courtesy of posting their reply
back here for the sake of others.
\----
At 5/22/2014 06:49 AM Thursday, Paul Groot wrote:
>Hi Erik,
>
>We just use a simple parallel port adapter card
>to be used in a PCI slot (From Startech, but If
>I remember correctly, PST has a list on their
>website with compatible cards.) If the optiplex
>comes with a built-in parallel port, their is no
>need to use the PCI card to add an additional
>port anyway. In our setup, we only use the 8
>databits as output from the PC to the biopac
>system, using a customized cable. Biopac also
>offers a cable that can be used without
>modifications to have 8 output and 4 inputs:
>
>Best,
>Paul
>
>
>
>
>On 21 May 2014 18:00, ekwing
>Best,
>Paul
>
>
>
>
>On 21 May 2014 18:00, ekwing
><<mailto:erik...@gmail.com>erik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>First, I realize this question is a bit atypical
>as it's hardware, however, after talking with
>Biopac and local Tech services I wanted to make
>sure none of you had encountered the same issue and found a better solution.
>
>Our current set-up for port forwarding involves
>a direct connection between a
><http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/1108>NI
>Hello,
>
>First, I realize this question is a bit atypical
>as it's hardware, however, after talking with
>Biopac and local Tech services I wanted to make
>sure none of you had encountered the same issue and found a better solution.
>
>Our current set-up for port forwarding involves
>a direct connection between a
>PCI-6503 card via the E-Prime computer's PCI
>slot and the MP150 25-pin printer port. Â
>However, we are currently in the process of
>upgrading our computers, and the new computers
>have a slimmer shell/tower that is not
>physically large enough to house the PCI-6503 in the PCI slot.
>
>Because,
><http://www.pstnet.com/support/kb.asp?TopicID=3023>according
>upgrading our computers, and the new computers
>have a slimmer shell/tower that is not
>physically large enough to house the PCI-6503 in the PCI slot.
>
>Because,
>to the E-Prime knowledge base, a USB to Parallel
>connection will not work, the only solution we
>have come up with so far is to
><http://www.cooldrives.com/index.php/1popcto4xpci.html?fee=1&fep=63&utm_source=merchantcntr2014>purchase
>connection will not work, the only solution we
>have come up with so far is to
>two of these (we have two set-ups).
>
>So, to simplify, my main question is this- Does
>anyone know of an alternative interface card
>that will adequately replace the NI PCI-6503
>that comes in a low-form factor design? Â If
>
>So, to simplify, my main question is this- Does
>anyone know of an alternative interface card
>that will adequately replace the NI PCI-6503
ekwing
May 22, 2014, 2:42:03 PM5/22/14
to e-p...@googlegroups.com
Hi Paul and David,
Thank you so much for your help- it is much appreciated. Embarrassingly, I mistakenly gave you some incorrect information.
Actually, the 25-pin printer port on the MP150 is already connected to the parallel port on the E-Prime computers. And yes, the Optiplex's have this port already, so that should be easy enough to replicate. The NI PCI-6503 card in the PCI slot (that can't be replicated on the new computers) actually goes through an adapter and then connects to individual ports on the back of the UIM100C module of the MP150. To be honest, I'm actually not entirely sure of the differentiation between this connection and the printer port- parallel port connection for port forwarding from E-Prime.
Any idea what this connection is actually being used for? I'm a bit lost.
Best,
Erik
Erik
Paul Groot
May 22, 2014, 3:58:45 PM5/22/14
to e-p...@googlegroups.com
Erik,
Well, I guess the NI PCI-6503 is then used to access additional digital and/or analog inputs or outputs of the biopac system. If you're only using the connection between eprime and biopac for synchronization purposes or encoding event markers, than the printer port connection should suffice. It really depends on your experiment requirements if you need this additional functionality.
Also, make sure to isolate the two systems properly if the biopac system is connected to human subjects. In other words: a connection using the NI PCI-6503 is only allowed if the adapter galvanically isolates the two systems as required by FDA (or CE) guidelines (i.e. IEC 60601-1, 510(k) and cousins). Also see http://www.biopac.com/FAQPage.ASP?id=6681&Src=Research
Make sure to consult an expert if you're not sure if your setup complies with the relevant standards. Safety should be nr 1 on your priority list!
Best
Paul
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David McFarlane
May 22, 2014, 4:12:19 PM5/22/14
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I don't know about anybody else, but I have never
used this equipment and could use more details,
maybe you could get those from whoever originally set up this system for you.
Just Googling around, as far as I can tell the
UIM100C "Universal Interface Module" is little
more than a breakout box for the 25-pin and
37-pin connectors on the MP150, merely a
convenience because whatever you could do with
the UIM100C you could do just as well by wiring
up directly to the ports on the MP150 (details at
http://www.biopac.com/universal-interface-module
,
http://www.biopac.com/Product_Spec_PDF/UIM100C.pdf
) -- the MP150 does all the real work.
The 25-pin connector on the MP150 handles 16 bits
of digital I/O plus two analog output channels,
and the 37-pin connector handles 16 analog input
channels (between them the connectors also supply
+5VDC and +/-12VDC supplies) (details at
http://www.biopac.com/Product_Spec_PDF/MP150%20Systems.pdf ).
In turn, the NI PCI-6503 handles 24 bits of
digital I/O (plus +5VDC) through a 50-pin IDC
connector (details at
http://www.ni.com/pdf/products/us/4daqsc379-384_374-376.pdf ).
Now, you say that you have the 25-pin port on the
MP150 connected to the parallel printer port on
your EP computer. (BTW, it is incorrect to refer
to the 25-pin connector on the MP150 as either a
"printer port" or "parallel port", it is
neither.) If so, then you are using the parallel
port on your EP computer for digital I/O between
it and the MP150. But then you say you have the
digital I/O from the NI PCI-6503 connected to the
MP150 via various inputs on the UIM100C. But
that digital I/O would have to reach the MP150
over the same 25-pin port already used for the
connection to the computer's parallel port. So
something does not make sense here. And nowhere
do we get any idea of where the outside world
comes in (i.e, the physiology for which you use the MP150 in the first place).
So I would need several more details. What
physiological data do you mean to measure? Is
this analog or digital? Do you use E-Prime to
actually record the physiological data from the
MP150, or merely to send trigger or marker
signals to the physiological instruments? What
exactly gets plugged into the UIM100C, and into
exactly what ports? How does the UIM100C get
connected to the MP150? With both cables, or
just one? Which one? How does the computer
parallel port get connected to the MP150? From
the point of view of the MP150, which signals are
used as input, and which as output? Do you use
any of the analog input or output channels? What
do you use each bit on the digital I/O
for? Basically, you need someone there to do a
complete cable trace and fully document this system.
Best,
-- David McFarlane
>Computing (<http://www.mccdaq.com/>http://www.mccdaq.com/ ) or LabJack
>(<http://labjack.com/>http://labjack.com/ ). These companies offer
>
>Twitter: @EPrimeMaster
>(<https://twitter.com/EPrimeMaster>https://twitter.com/EPrimeMaster)
used this equipment and could use more details,
maybe you could get those from whoever originally set up this system for you.
Just Googling around, as far as I can tell the
UIM100C "Universal Interface Module" is little
more than a breakout box for the 25-pin and
37-pin connectors on the MP150, merely a
convenience because whatever you could do with
the UIM100C you could do just as well by wiring
up directly to the ports on the MP150 (details at
http://www.biopac.com/universal-interface-module
,
http://www.biopac.com/Product_Spec_PDF/UIM100C.pdf
) -- the MP150 does all the real work.
The 25-pin connector on the MP150 handles 16 bits
of digital I/O plus two analog output channels,
and the 37-pin connector handles 16 analog input
channels (between them the connectors also supply
+5VDC and +/-12VDC supplies) (details at
http://www.biopac.com/Product_Spec_PDF/MP150%20Systems.pdf ).
In turn, the NI PCI-6503 handles 24 bits of
digital I/O (plus +5VDC) through a 50-pin IDC
connector (details at
http://www.ni.com/pdf/products/us/4daqsc379-384_374-376.pdf ).
Now, you say that you have the 25-pin port on the
MP150 connected to the parallel printer port on
your EP computer. (BTW, it is incorrect to refer
to the 25-pin connector on the MP150 as either a
"printer port" or "parallel port", it is
neither.) If so, then you are using the parallel
port on your EP computer for digital I/O between
it and the MP150. But then you say you have the
digital I/O from the NI PCI-6503 connected to the
MP150 via various inputs on the UIM100C. But
that digital I/O would have to reach the MP150
over the same 25-pin port already used for the
connection to the computer's parallel port. So
something does not make sense here. And nowhere
do we get any idea of where the outside world
comes in (i.e, the physiology for which you use the MP150 in the first place).
So I would need several more details. What
physiological data do you mean to measure? Is
this analog or digital? Do you use E-Prime to
actually record the physiological data from the
MP150, or merely to send trigger or marker
signals to the physiological instruments? What
exactly gets plugged into the UIM100C, and into
exactly what ports? How does the UIM100C get
connected to the MP150? With both cables, or
just one? Which one? How does the computer
parallel port get connected to the MP150? From
the point of view of the MP150, which signals are
used as input, and which as output? Do you use
any of the analog input or output channels? What
do you use each bit on the digital I/O
for? Basically, you need someone there to do a
complete cable trace and fully document this system.
Best,
-- David McFarlane
>(<http://labjack.com/>http://labjack.com/ ). These companies offer
>devices that connect to any computer via USB to
>provide digital I/O. You then control them from
>E-Prime using the supplied libraries. We have
>had good results using a D/A USB device from
>Measurement Computing, I would would expect
>similar good resutls with their digital I/O devices.
>
>-----
>David McFarlane
>E-Prime training
>online:
><http://psychology.msu.edu/Workshops_Courses/eprime.aspx>http://psychology.msu.edu/Workshops_Courses/eprime.aspx
>provide digital I/O. You then control them from
>E-Prime using the supplied libraries. We have
>had good results using a D/A USB device from
>Measurement Computing, I would would expect
>similar good resutls with their digital I/O devices.
>
>-----
>David McFarlane
>E-Prime training
>online:
>
>Twitter: @EPrimeMaster
>(<https://twitter.com/EPrimeMaster>https://twitter.com/EPrimeMaster)
>
>/----
>Stock reminder: 1) I do not work for PST. 2)
>PST's trained staff take any and all questions at
><https://support.pstnet.com>https://support.pstnet.com , and they strive to
>/----
>Stock reminder: 1) I do not work for PST. 2)
>PST's trained staff take any and all questions at
>respond to all requests in 24-48 hours, so make
>full use of it. 3) In addition, PST offers
>several instructional videos on their YouTube
>channel
>(<http://www.youtube.com/user/PSTNET>http://www.youtube.com/user/PSTNET
>full use of it. 3) In addition, PST offers
>several instructional videos on their YouTube
>channel
>). 4) If you do get an answer from PST staff,
>please extend the courtesy of posting their reply
>back here for the sake of others.
>\----
>
>
>At 5/22/2014 06:49 AM Thursday, Paul Groot wrote:
> >Hi Erik,
> >
> >We just use a simple parallel port adapter card
> >to be used in a PCI slot (From Startech, but If
> >I remember correctly, PST has a list on their
> >website with compatible cards.) If the optiplex
> >comes with a built-in parallel port, their is no
> >need to use the PCI card to add an additional
> >port anyway. In our setup, we only use the 8
> >databits as output from the PC to the biopac
> >system, using a customized cable. Biopac also
> >offers a cable that can be used without
> >modifications to have 8 output and 4 inputs:
> ><<http://www.biopac.com/Product_Spec_PDF/STP100
> C.pdf>http://www.biopac.com/Product_Spec_PDF/STP100C.pdf>http://www.biopac.com/Product_Spec_PDF/STP100C.pdf.
>please extend the courtesy of posting their reply
>back here for the sake of others.
>\----
>
>
>At 5/22/2014 06:49 AM Thursday, Paul Groot wrote:
> >Hi Erik,
> >
> >We just use a simple parallel port adapter card
> >to be used in a PCI slot (From Startech, but If
> >I remember correctly, PST has a list on their
> >website with compatible cards.) If the optiplex
> >comes with a built-in parallel port, their is no
> >need to use the PCI card to add an additional
> >port anyway. In our setup, we only use the 8
> >databits as output from the PC to the biopac
> >system, using a customized cable. Biopac also
> >offers a cable that can be used without
> >modifications to have 8 output and 4 inputs:
> ><<http://www.biopac.com/Product_Spec_PDF/STP100
>
> >
> >Best,
> >Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On 21 May 2014 18:00, ekwing
> ><<mailto:erik...@gmail.com>erik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> >First, I realize this question is a bit atypical
> >as it's hardware, however, after talking with
> >Biopac and local Tech services I wanted to make
> >sure none of you had encountered the same
> issue and found a better solution.
> >
> >Our current set-up for port forwarding involves
> >a direct connection between a
> ><<http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/ni
> d/1108>http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/1108>NI
> >
> >Best,
> >Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On 21 May 2014 18:00, ekwing
> ><<mailto:erik...@gmail.com>erik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> >First, I realize this question is a bit atypical
> >as it's hardware, however, after talking with
> >Biopac and local Tech services I wanted to make
> >sure none of you had encountered the same
> issue and found a better solution.
> >
> >Our current set-up for port forwarding involves
> >a direct connection between a
> ><<http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/ni
> >PCI-6503 card via the E-Prime computer's PCI
> >slot and the MP150 25-pin printer port. Â
> >However, we are currently in the process of
> >upgrading our computers, and the new computers
> >have a slimmer shell/tower that is not
> >physically large enough to house the PCI-6503 in the PCI slot.
> >
> >Because,
> ><<http://www.pstnet.com/support/kb.asp?TopicID=
> 3023>http://www.pstnet.com/support/kb.asp?TopicID=3023>according
> >upgrading our computers, and the new computers
> >have a slimmer shell/tower that is not
> >physically large enough to house the PCI-6503 in the PCI slot.
> >
> >Because,
> ><<http://www.pstnet.com/support/kb.asp?TopicID=
> >to the E-Prime knowledge base, a USB to Parallel
> >connection will not work, the only solution we
> >have come up with so far is to
> ><<http://www.cooldrives.com/index.php/1popcto4x
> pci.html?fee=1&fep=63&utm_source=merchantcntr2014>http://www.cooldrives.com/index.php/1popcto4xpci.html?fee=1&fep=63&utm_source=merchantcntr2014>purchase
> >connection will not work, the only solution we
> >have come up with so far is to
> ><<http://www.cooldrives.com/index.php/1popcto4x
>
> >two of these (we have two set-ups).
> >
> >So, to simplify, my main question is this- Does
> >anyone know of an alternative interface card
> >that will adequately replace the NI PCI-6503
> >that comes in a low-form factor design? Â If
> >two of these (we have two set-ups).
> >
> >So, to simplify, my main question is this- Does
> >anyone know of an alternative interface card
> >that will adequately replace the NI PCI-6503
ekwing
May 22, 2014, 5:51:36 PM5/22/14
to e-p...@googlegroups.com
Thanks again for your help and interest.
As Paul alluded to, there is certainly some reason why both of these connections exist, however because this additional functionality has not been utilized by me- I'm simply using the connection for initial triggers and event markers for our studies- I really cannot expand on why we have both. Unfortunately, this is the very question I'm trying to answer, to see if finding a solution to the PCI card transfer issue is actually necessary. For this reason, I'm going to be contacting the expert who originally set this up for us in an attempt to clarify the situation. Until I hear back, David, I'm going to hold off on answering your questions as that will take me a bit of time and some of them I don't believe I will even be able to answer with full confidence.
Again, I apologize for not providing more info- this kind of went from a "Does anyone have an alternative to this PCI card" question, to describing the intricacies of our E-Prime/MP-150/AcqKnowledge hardward set-up, which is admittedly beyond my scope.
Best,
Erik
Erik
Peter Quain
May 22, 2014, 7:35:24 PM5/22/14
to e-p...@googlegroups.com
My two-cents … So the biopac / e-prime connections wired as you describe allow an e-prime paradigm to be run and to send event-marker information to the biopac system. Obviously the markers are being sent through the parallel port connection between e-prime computer and MP150 DSUB port (pin assignment would be different to a ‘printer port’) as this is the only physical connection to the MP150 digital channels. Someone has built or bought a parallel port to MP150 DSUB cable and established direct connection to the MP150, bypassing the UIM. Assuming the working paradigm you are running is built in e-prime, you just need to look at the event marking code in that experiment to confirm this – it will address the parallel port (probably &H378) and different events will use different bytes to pull single individual pins high … 10000000, 01000000, etc.
As for the currently redundant I/O card connection, my guess is someone has wanted to use more than 8 digital channels for marking multiple types of events in some paradigm and so have installed an I/O card capable of more than 8 outputs (biopac has 16 digital channels), identified the active pins on a ribbon cable (?) and screwed the correct wires into the digital inputs on the UIM. To use this setup you’d need to plug the 25 pin UIM connector into the MP150 DSUB port, and write some code to probably set the I/O registers on the card (documentation will state how to set banks of pins to input or output), and address them during write port operations. Or maybe they couldn’t get the card working and then discovered the alternative parallel port solution? Mysteries.
Peter
Best,
Erik
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