Re: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thought
Pritam Singh
Amarjit Singh ji,The six systems of philosophy are complimentary, not contradictory.They deal with different subjects.They all trace their origin to the veda.The three nastika schools also I have mentioned earlier.In this context the reference point was Gurbani which mentions six shastras.Shastra means an instrument... a tool. In this case a tool for understanding.You need to read these six schools in order to be able to differentiate Gurbani from the veda.How can you claim it is not veda when you do not even know what veda says.The three nastika schools merit a darshana each because they have something different to say.Have you produced a Sikh darshna to show how Sikhi is different?I have asked you to differentiate between Vishistadvaita and Gurbani.Why cant you?Because you have not read vedanta darshana.You simply say:"we do not need to read these 6 schools if they all trace their roots to the Vedas and the Sikh Gurus had condemned the Vedas?"It is fallacious logic.First of all, did the Gurus condemn the vedas?It is a contested issue.It is your interpretation that could be wrong.Assuming they did condemn the vedas, how will you find out if they rightly condemned?To find out, you will have to read the six darshanas, will you not?
On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 12:22 AM <dali...@btinternet.com> wrote:The six Hindu systems of philosophy (astikas) are mutually contradictory. Which one of these is correct? What about the 3 nastika schools namely Charvaka, Buddhist and Jains (I will not mention the poor Ajivikas with their niyati =acceptance of karma, rebirth and suffering fate). If the 3 are Hindus why have you excluded them from the six schools? Convenience I suppose. Why do we need to read these 6 schools if they all trace their roots to the Vedas and the Sikh Gurus had condemned the Vedas?
Amarjit Singh
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Subject: Re: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thought
A few questions on the caste/varna ashram issue I am interested in are:
1. Is Varna ashram central to Hinduism?
2. If yes, did Nanak and others whose poetry is included in GGS were not making a continued critique of this varna ashram and, therefore, of Hinduism?
3. If not, what was Nanak and others criticising?
On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 14:12, DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Gurpreet Singh ji,
Indian thought is defined as the six Darshanas. They are referred to in the Gurbani as the six shastars. Do make it a point to study them. Look them up since Gurbani mentions them.
>>> Is caste discrimination rooted in Indian thought? <<<
None of the six darshnas recommends caste discrimination. Don't take my word for it. Check them out.
Discrimination has developed but it is attributable to culture not darshanas.
Did Nanak speak against caste?
Do Sikhs still practice caste?
Why does Nanak's admonition have little effect?
The pull of culture, and of human nature to discriminate, is strong.
>>> Is idol worship rooted in Indian thought? <<<
None of the six darshanas talks of worshipping idols.
Some Bhakti "sampadas" developed it as part of their culture.
For instance Mirabai's Vashnava sampada.
Some others developed anti idol worship culture.
For instance the Shaivaite sampada started by Basvappa in Karnataka.
So it is not thought, it is culture.
On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 6:00 PM gurpsrehal <gurps...@gmail.com> wrote:
Don't you first need to define Indian thought is?
Is caste discrimination rooted in Indian thought?
Is idol worship rooted in Indian thought?
On Saturday, 4 April 2020 10:41:11 UTC+1, DevinderSingh Gulati wrote:Hardev has responded by stating that he has found a text by Dr. Jasbir Singh Ahluwalia, ex-VC that counters my claim.
This is as far as he will go. That is why I call him a lazy scholar.
Now Jasbir Singh is no more:
"Chandigarh , April 20, 2019 : Former Punjab bureaucrat ,former Vice-Chancellor of Punjabi University and Sikh scholar Dr Jasbir Singh Ahluwalia passed away last night at Chandigarh. He was also founder VC of Sri Guru Granth Sahib World University ( SGGWU ) Fatehgarh Sahib . He was 84."
So I would ask someone from SGGWU to take up the discussion since Hardev is unwilling.
This is what I would like him to do.
State the Sikh cosmogony as sketched by Dr. Jasbir Singh.
State the vishistadvaita cosmology.
Explain why Sikhi is not the same as vishistadvaita.
This exercise is open to anyone. Ron Sekhon is welcome. Gurbux Kahlon is welcome. Dave Bains is welcome.
Since I have already come to that conclusion after a long and diligent study, I would like to be freed of my error.
Hardev, Gurbux, and Dave do see my conclusion as an error. So I am willing to be dissuaded.
They on their part should be able to take in their stride my challenge to their understanding of Gurbani, at every step.
They would be doing a great service to Sikhi, whoever enters this discussion.
On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sikhi can be precisely slotted in the Indian thought system. The slot it occupies is Vishistadvaita. Sikhi researchers have never attempted to locate Sikhi on the thought map.
In their belief that Sikhi has to be studied by itself, they are going astray in their interpretation of Gurbani.
There is no dissonance in Vishistadvaita thought and Sikhi thought at all. It is a hundred percent match.
So if there is any doubt regarding a particular interpretation, it can be settled by a reference to vishistadvaita texts.
I have urged Hardev Virk, the "lazy professor" to establish the concordance or to demolish my claim once for all.
I have asked Virk to take up each of the twenty five principles of Sikh thought in comparison with the vishistadvaita.
This would become an interesting discussion, and some useful work will be done, if Hardev sheds his lethargy.
On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:11 PM DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sikhs tell me Sikhi is a standalone. That it is not some kind of extension of Hinduism. It should therefore be studied by itself.
When I look at the Sikh teaching I cannot but notice that it is rooted in the spiritual soil of India from which it cannot be seen separate.
The spirituality of India seeks constantly to express itself in new forms even as it goes about destroying old forms that no longer serve its needs.
The story of the ten Gurus lays bare the remarkable evolutionary endeavour that was attempted by Sikhism.
It was the genius of the tenth Guru that at a remarkably young age of 33 laid down the foundation for the very first time, of the beginning of a spiritualised society.
The idea of the Khalsa was a premature attempt for which humanity was not yet ready. It is a failing of human nature that is tied to the earth that prevents the Khalsa from reaching its intended potential.
"The Sikh Khalsa, writes Sri Aurobindo, was an astonishingly original and novel creation and its face was turned not to the past but to the future. Apart and singular in its theocratic head and democratic soul and structure, its profound spiritual being, its first attempt to combine the deepest elements of Islam and Vedanta, it was a premature drive towards an entrance into the third or spiritual stage of human society, but it could not create between the spirit and the external life the transmitting medium of a rich creative thought and culture. And thus hampered and deficient it began and ended with narrow local limits, achieved intensity but no power of expansion..." (Foundations of Indian Culture, p. 380)
Sri Aurobindo addresses the deficiency in his expounding of the Integral Yoga, where he lays down the foundational thought that serves as the basis for the transmutation of the ordinary consciousness so necessary to the endeavour.
Sri Aurobindo's yoga is to be seen as more than an extension of Hinduism. It has new elements that are not to be found in the veda or the previous yogas. It in "The Life Divine" that he lays out his entire argument for a new approach to the problem.
No study of the Gurbani can therefore be complete without a reference to The Life Divine. Any expounder of the meaning of Khalsa would be missing out much if he were not to inform himself of the evolving Indian thought.
Listen to Dr. Alok Pandey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2-sWeCuhvgQ
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Gurjeet Singh
ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਯਾ ਵੇਦ ਅਨੂਸਾਰ: ਈਦ ਅਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਨਉਮੀ ।
गुरमत या वेद के अनुसार: ईद और राम नवमी।
Gurmat or Vedic prospective of Eid & Raam Naumi.
ਈਦ ਉਲ-ਫਿਤਰ. ... ਇਸਲਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਤਿਉਹਾਰ ਵਜੋਂ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ।
ਰਮਜ਼ਾਨ ਇਸਲਾਮੀ ਨਉਮੇ (9) ਮਹੀਨੇ ਤੋਂ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਭਰ ਦੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨਾਂ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਮਨਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ।
ਈਦ ਉਲ-ਫਿਤਰ, ਇਸਲਾਮੀ ਚੰਦਰ (Lunar) ਕੈਲੰਡਰ ਦੇ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਮਹੀਨੇ ਦੇ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਦਿਨ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਤੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਉਸ ਦਿਨ ਦਾ ਵਰਤ ਰੱਖਣ ਦੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ.
ਪਰ ਇਸ ਤਿਉਹਾਰ ਦਾ ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਮਹੱਤਵਪੂਰਣ ਪਹਿਲੂ, 9 ਦਾ ਅੰਕ ਹੈ.
ਪੂਰਬ ਵਿਚ “ਰਾਮ ਨਉਮੀ” ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਹੋਰ ਮਹੱਤਵਪੂਰਣ, ਵੈਦਿਕ ਤਿਉਹਾਰ ਵੈਦਿਕ ਕੈਲੰਡਰ ਦੇ, ਚੇਤ ਮਹੀਨੇ ਦੇ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਚਮਕਦਾਰ ਅੱਧ (ਸ਼ੁਕਲਾ ਪੱਖ) ਦੇ ਨੌਵੇਂ (9) ਦਿਨ ਨੂੰ ਮਨਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ.
ਇੱਥੇ ਜ਼ਰੂਰ ਇੱਕ ਰੂਹਾਨੀ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਹੈ!
ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਪੰਨਾ 343 ਤੇ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਜਵਾਬ ਦਰਜ ਹੈ।
ਨਉਮੀ ਨਵੈ ਦੁਆਰ ਕਉ ਸਾਧਿ ॥
नउमी नवै दुआर कउ साधि ॥
(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਸਾਰੇ ਸਰੀਰਕ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਾਬੂ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖੋ,
On the ninth day of the lunar cycle, discipline the nine gates of the body.
ਬਹਤੀ ਮਨਸਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਬਾਂਧਿ ॥
बहती मनसा राखहु बाँधि ॥
ਇਹਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਉੱਠਦੇ ਫੁਰਨਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਰੋਕੋ,
Keep your pulsating desires restrained.
ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਸਭ ਬੀਸਰਿ ਜਾਹੁ ॥
लोभ मोह सभ बीसरि जाहु ॥
ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਆਦਿਕ ਸਾਰੇ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਭੁਲਾ ਦਿਉ
Forget all your greed and emotional attachment;
ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੀਵਹੁ ਅਮਰ ਫਲ ਖਾਹੁ ॥੧੦॥
जुगु जुगु जीवहु अमर फल खाहु ॥१०॥
(ਇਸ ਮਿਹਨਤ ਦਾ) ਐਸਾ ਫਲ ਮਿਲੇਗਾ ਜੋ ਕਦੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਮੁੱਕੇਗਾ, ਐਸਾ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਜੀਵਨ ਜੀਵੋਗੇ ਜੋ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹੇਗਾ ।੧੦।
you shall live throughout the ages, eating the fruit of immortality. ||10||
मीठी ईद। ... इस्लाम में एक त्योहार के रूप में जाना जाता है।रमजान के नौवें महीने से शुरू होकर, यह दुनिया भर के मुसलमानों द्वारा मनाया जाता है।
ईद उल-फ़ित्र इस्लामी चंद्र कैलेंडर के दसवें महीने का पहला दिन है, और मुसलमानों को उस दिन उपवास करने की अनुमति नहीं है।
लेकिन इस त्योहार का सबसे महत्वपूर्ण पहलू नंबर 9 है।पूर्व में, "राम नामी" नामक एक और महत्वपूर्ण वैदिक त्योहार वैदिक कैलेंडर के पहले उज्ज्वल आधे (शुक्ल पख) के नौवें (9) दिन मनाया जाता है।
यहाँ निश्चित रूप से एक आध्यात्मिक संबंध है! इसका जवाब गुरबानी में पेज 343 पर दर्ज है।
Eid ul-Fitr. ... It is also known as 'The Feast of Breaking the Fast' and is celebrated by Muslims worldwide to mark the end of Ramadan which begins in the 9th Lunar month.
Eid ul-Fitr takes place on the first day of the tenth month of the Islamic lunar calendar, and Muslims are not permitted to fast on that day.
But the most important aspect in these celebrations is the Number 9.
Ram Naumi another Vedic festival in the east is celebrated on the ninth (9) day of the bright half (Shukla Paksha) in the first Vedic calendar month of Chait.
There is certainly a Spiritual connection there!
Gurbani certainly has provided an answer to that.
|
Varna is a fundamental concept underlying the Hindu society. In fact, it is not a social arrangement or segregation; it is rather a statement of how any society is arranged. It does not say society should be classified into classes, it says what classes or kinds of people exist in any society.
The four varnas mentioned are based on the functions people perform in any society.
Is there only one class of people among Sikhs? Do they all perform all four functions?
You are performing the Brahmin function and none of the other three, are you not?
Ashrama dharma is fundamental to the Hindu
society. It divides man's life into four stages and specifies what one
should do in each of the stages. Historically, it was only few Brahmanas
who were found to make it through all the four ashramas. Kshatriyas of
yore, used to make it to vanaprastha. Vanaprastha was even more a rare
case in Vaisyas.
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Varna_Ashrama_Dharma
>>> Was Nanak not making a continued critique of this varna ashram and, therefore, of Hinduism? <<<
Nanak as critiquing the prevailing culture that had rigidly caste by birth.
How is that a critique of Hinduism that says Jati is mobile.
gagandeep singh
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DevinderSingh Gulati
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dali...@btinternet.com
The six Hindu systems of philosophy (astikas) are mutually contradictory. Which one of these is correct? What about the 3 nastika schools namely Charvaka, Buddhist and Jains (I will not mention the poor Ajivikas with their niyati =acceptance of karma, rebirth and suffering fate). If the 3 are Hindus why have you excluded them from the six schools? Convenience I suppose. Why do we need to read these 6 schools if they all trace their roots to the Vedas and the Sikh Gurus had condemned the Vedas?
Amarjit Singh
From: sikh-i...@googlegroups.com <sikh-i...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Pritam Singh
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Subject: Re: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thought
A few questions on the caste/varna ashram issue I am interested in are:
1. Is Varna ashram central to Hinduism?
2. If yes, did Nanak and others whose poetry is included in GGS were not making a continued critique of this varna ashram and, therefore, of Hinduism?
3. If not, what was Nanak and others criticising?
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Pritam Singh
Humanist Humanist
- Varna is a creation of Manusmriti, which is picked up and reinforced later by both Kautilya and Brahma-Sutra. (if needed, I will provide citations from each of these texts)
- For 1000s of years, this system established reservations and privileges, especially, for the Brahmins. And, also for the Kshatriyas.
- Fundamentally, it is an ILLIBERAL system, by NOT accepting that every human is born equal.
- Brahmins are said to have emerged from Bramha's mouth, (highest of the dwijas)
- Kshatriyas from his arms, (next in the hierarchy of dwijas)
- Vaishyas from his thighs, (last rank in the hierarchy of dwijas) and
- Sudras from his feet (the most despised)
- Caste emerged as a result of peculiar socio-historical reasons when city states were emerging over the ruins of tribal hinterland (famous of these is the Kalinga war waged by Ashoka)
- Defeated tribes were forced into resettlement by the victorious kings.
- But these tribes were not allowed to settle in one region. They were split into different parts so that they cannot come together again and re-mount a military opposition to the kingdoms.
- The structure of the CASTE replicates the structure of TRIBES. One is a mirror image of the other.
- Caste
- Gotras (typically follow the paternal bloodline)
- Tribe
- Clans (usually follow the maternal bloodline)
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
(Martin Niemöller - a German Theologian, 14 January 1892 – 6 March 1984)
Amarjit Singh ji,The six systems of philosophy are complimentary, not contradictory.They deal with different subjects.They all trace their origin to the veda.The three nastika schools also I have mentioned earlier.In this context the reference point was Gurbani which mentions six shastras.Shastra means an instrument... a tool. In this case a tool for understanding.You need to read these six schools in order to be able to differentiate Gurbani from the veda.How can you claim it is not veda when you do not even know what veda says.The three nastika schools merit a darshana each because they have something different to say.Have you produced a Sikh darshna to show how Sikhi is different?I have asked you to differentiate between Vishistadvaita and Gurbani.Why cant you?Because you have not read vedanta darshana.You simply say:"we do not need to read these 6 schools if they all trace their roots to the Vedas and the Sikh Gurus had condemned the Vedas?"It is fallacious logic.First of all, did the Gurus condemn the vedas?It is a contested issue.It is your interpretation that could be wrong.Assuming they did condemn the vedas, how will you find out if they rightly condemned?To find out, you will have to read the six darshanas, will you not?
On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 12:22 AM <dali...@btinternet.com> wrote:
In their belief that Sikhi has to be studied by itself, they are going astray in their interpretation of Gurbani..
__._,_.___
Posted by: DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com>
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dali...@btinternet.com
Dear Viswa/Pritam
I don’t know why but I can not seem to post to any of the Sikh groups. My responses seem to keep bouncing back!
You are quite right. Caste is tribal clan under Brahmin, state and local upper caste control if you are ‘lower-caste’.
These Hindutva type want to discuss philosophy in the abstract and not relate it to reality. That is what many pious Sikhs wish to do. So the latter loose each and every time because the Hindutva type can make things up, anything they want to; as they make up facts on the fly and many Sikhs are not that knowledgeable about Hindu traditions, alternative traditions etc. I means even an idiot will not say that six darshanas are complimentary and not contradictory….
Kautilya uses daramasutra terminology but allows the king flexibility in interpreting these. Any generalise statement about caste and Hinduism can be contradicted by an equally opposite statement-DD Kosambi
BTW Manu made up the fiction about mixing of varna (Ambedkar). Wendy O’Doniger whose book Hindus an Alternative History was pulped in India agrees on that point in that book.
If it is human to discriminate then Mr Gulati is good company with the Nazis, supporters of Apartheid and ‘White Supermacists’. In the future when (and if) Dalits discriminate against Hindutva type what will be his viewpoint?
Ambedkar called Hinduism a Chamber of Horrors and I have been looking for any beautiful aspects of Hinduism for many decades but met with failure. Seriously, I would like to stand corrected.
Best wishes
Amarjit Singh
DevinderSingh Gulati
Varna is a fundamental concept underlying the Hindu society. In fact, it is not a social arrangement or segregation; it is rather a statement of how any society is arranged. It does not say society should be classified into classes, it says what classes or kinds of people exist in any society.
The four varnas mentioned are based on the functions people perform in any society.
Is there only one class of people among Sikhs? Do they all perform all four functions?
You are performing the Brahmin function and none of the other three, are you not?
Ashrama dharma is fundamental to the Hindu
society. It divides man's life into four stages and specifies what one
should do in each of the stages. Historically, it was only few Brahmanas
who were found to make it through all the four ashramas. Kshatriyas of
yore, used to make it to vanaprastha. Vanaprastha was even more a rare
case in Vaisyas.
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Varna_Ashrama_Dharma
>>> Was Nanak not making a continued critique of this varna ashram and, therefore, of Hinduism? <<<
Nanak as critiquing the prevailing culture that had rigidly caste by birth.
How is that a critique of Hinduism that says Jati is mobile.
DevinderSingh Gulati
DevinderSingh Gulati
gagandeep singh
DevinderSingh Gulati
On Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 6:47:47 PM UTC+5:30, rami wrote:
Please watch this attachment to know if Sikhs are Indians or not.
I am deeply saddened to learn about the demise of former VC Sahib. He was a wonderful person and knowledgeable. May he rest in peace in heaven 🙏
gurbux kahlon
I respect your analysis as well. But I also want to say that “living Gurus’ explain the deep texts in Hinduism. The Tradition of recognizing Sadgurus is deeply set in Hinduism. Sai Baba said Allah Malik, but Hindus flocked to him as to Kabir Nanak and 1000s of enlightened Gurus that have been in India and explained the deeper meaning oF life.They are the ones who explain the texts and not average Brahmins.And anyone who thinks that a spiritual text or any sutras shlokas or shabad can not be interpreted in myriad spiritual ways, is refusing to recognize the beauty of the philosophy and poetry that is present in these amazing textsI deeply appreciate the depth of your email because it goes into the range of infinite wisdom that Hindu texts have passed to India, even an illiterate person in India can understand the philosophical elements of Dharma and Karma.In Sikhi as well, the meaning of the Vaars and text are variously interpreted and while many of the texts are philosophical, they are twisted as if they are demeaning to Hinduism. Same with KabirWhen I asked when does Nanak or Kabir demean Hindu, Hardevsingh ji wrote about Kabir’s saying that if One is born of a Brahmani it doesn’t make one a Brahmin - Kabir is just reminding of a Sanskrit shloka for that which says everyone is at the same level when born. He who achieves merits and is dwij, can rise above.So again, to say that Kabir was demeaning Brahmins is a basic literal interpretation-and somethings Sikhs are always looking for. and By interpreting spiritual texts on their own without the help of realized souls there will always be room for error and devaluation of the loftiness of dohas and sutras and Bani.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 25, 2020, at 9:58 PM, 'kapoor kapil' via Understanding Sikhism <sikh-i...@googlegroups.com> wrote:Respected S. Kulbir Thind ji:Please accept my deep respect for your wise, thoughtful, harmony-promoting ideas based in deep knowledge.My respectful regards,kapil kapoorChairmanIndian Institute of Advanced Study Shimla
On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 8:27 am, 'Kulbir Thind' via Understanding Sikhism<sikh-i...@googlegroups.com> wrote:Dear All,In a way all philosophies belong to humanity. Only simple philosophies can be practiced and other remain in the domain of scholars. It is particularly true about Hindu texts. First of all, those are in Sanskrit and require knowledge of Sanskrit for study. The fact is that even then there can be many different interpretations (you can search meaning of a simple Mantra as Gayatri on the internet and you will find different meanings). The result is that ordinary people are dependent on intermediaries for interpretation. Brahmans who themselves have little knowledge then become the teachers. The other issues is the volume or the number of Hindu texts and for one to decide which one to follow. There are 4 Vedas, 18 Puranas, about 22 Simrities (I can be wrong about numbers), more than 200 Upnaisheds, 6 Shashtras, Mahabharta, Ramayan and Bhagwat Gita. The result is that traditions dominate irrespective of philosophies. When it comes to traditions there have been too many and some for the ordinary folks and others for the various kinds of Sadhus and Brahmins.The issue of Sikhi’s roots being in Hinduism is a mute one. Gurus have instructed us a simple way of living. Making honest living, sharing with the less fortunate and Naan Simran. Above all they taught us that all humanity is God’s creation and deserves to be respected and cared for. If this is rooted in Hinduism or something else, so be it. It is simple and beautiful.Guru Angad Dev-ji, explained it so well in one Shalok on page 265 of SGGS.सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:ਬਹੁ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬਹੁ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ ਪੇਖੇ ਸਰਬ ਢਢੋਲਿ ॥
बहु सासत्र बहु सिम्रिती पेखे सरब ढढोलि ॥
Baho sāsṯar baho simriṯī pekẖe sarab dẖadẖol.
The many Shaastras and the many Simritees - I have seen and searched through them all.ਪੂਜਸਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਅਮੋਲ ॥੧॥
पूजसि नाही हरि हरे नानक नाम अमोल ॥१॥
Pūjas nāhī har hare Nānak nām amol. ||1||
They are not equal to Har, Haray - O Nanak, the Lord's Invaluable Name. ||1||Kulbir S Thind
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kapoor kapil
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SIKH DHARMA BHAIBANDI
Please remove my name from your list
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Enviado el: lunes, 25 de mayo de 2020 7:31
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Asunto: [Sikh-Diaspora] RE: [TheBecoming] Re: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thought
Dear Viswa/Pritam
I don’t know why but I can not seem to post to any of the Sikh groups. My responses seem to keep bouncing back!
You are quite right. Caste is tribal clan under Brahmin, state and local upper caste control if you are ‘lower-caste’.
These Hindutva type want to discuss philosophy in the abstract and not relate it to reality. That is what many pious Sikhs wish to do. So the latter loose each and every time because the Hindutva type can make things up, anything they want to; as they make up facts on the fly and many Sikhs are not that knowledgeable about Hindu traditions, alternative traditions etc. I means even an idiot will not say that six darshanas are complimentary and not contradictory….
Kautilya uses daramasutra terminology but allows the king flexibility in interpreting these. Any generalise statement about caste and Hinduism can be contradicted by an equally opposite statement-DD Kosambi
BTW Manu made up the fiction about mixing of varna (Ambedkar). Wendy O’Doniger whose book Hindus an Alternative History was pulped in India agrees on that point in that book.
If it is human to discriminate then Mr Gulati is good company with the Nazis, supporters of Apartheid and ‘White Supermacists’. In the future when (and if) Dalits discriminate against Hindutva type what will be his viewpoint?
Ambedkar called Hinduism a Chamber of Horrors and I have been looking for any beautiful aspects of Hinduism for many decades but met with failure. Seriously, I would like to stand corrected.
Best wishes
Amarjit Singh
From: Humanist Humanist <viswa...@gmail.com>
Sent: 25 May 2020 11:10
To: TheBe...@yahoogroups.com
Cc: dali...@btinternet.com; Pritam Singh <psi...@brookes.ac.uk>; Understanding Sikhism <sikh-i...@googlegroups.com>; sikh-d...@yahoogroups.com; gurpsrehal <gurps...@gmail.com>; Dr. kulwant Singh Virginia USA <sikh_news_...@yahoogroups.com>; torontosik...@yahoogroups.com; Gurumustuk Singh <gmu...@sikhnet.com>; dwarka-si...@googlegroups.com; si...@yahoogroups.com; sikhyouthr...@yahoogroups.com; sikh_yout...@yahoogroups.com; sb...@yahoogroups.com; ChardiKalaa Email Network <ck...@googlegroups.com>; sikhs-an...@yahoogroups.com; business...@yahoogroups.com; sikh_inte...@yahoogroups.com; sikhre...@yahoogroups.co.in; sikhn...@yahoogroups.com; hyderab...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [TheBecoming] Re: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thought
Devinder Singh's vague citation of "darshan" makes no sense.
Varna and Caste are two distinct phenomena in Indian society.. Yet, they interact to reinforce discriminatory practices and oppression.
Because you have not read vedanta darshana..
Hardev has responded by stating that he has found a text by Dr.. Jasbir Singh Ahluwalia, ex-VC that counters my claim.
This is as far as he will go. That is why I call him a lazy scholar.
Now Jasbir Singh is no more:
"Chandigarh , April 20, 2019 : Former Punjab bureaucrat ,former Vice-Chancellor of Punjabi University and Sikh scholar Dr Jasbir Singh Ahluwalia passed away last night at Chandigarh. He was also founder VC of Sri Guru Granth Sahib World University ( SGGWU ) Fatehgarh Sahib . He was 84."
So I would ask someone from SGGWU to take up the discussion since Hardev is unwilling.
This is what I would like him to do.
State the Sikh cosmogony as sketched by Dr. Jasbir Singh.
State the vishistadvaita cosmology.
Explain why Sikhi is not the same as vishistadvaita.
This exercise is open to anyone. Ron Sekhon is welcome. Gurbux Kahlon is welcome. Dave Bains is welcome.
Since I have already come to that conclusion after a long and diligent study, I would like to be freed of my error.
Hardev, Gurbux, and Dave do see my conclusion as an error. So I am willing to be dissuaded.
They on their part should be able to take in their stride my challenge to their understanding of Gurbani, at every step.
They would be doing a great service to Sikhi, whoever enters this discussion.
On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sikhi can be precisely slotted in the Indian thought system. The slot it occupies is Vishistadvaita. Sikhi researchers have never attempted to locate Sikhi on the thought map.
In their belief that Sikhi has to be studied by itself, they are going astray in their interpretation of Gurbani..
There is no dissonance in Vishistadvaita thought and Sikhi thought at all. It is a hundred percent match.
So if there is any doubt regarding a particular interpretation, it can be settled by a reference to vishistadvaita texts.
I have urged Hardev Virk, the "lazy professor" to establish the concordance or to demolish my claim once for all.
I have asked Virk to take up each of the twenty five principles of Sikh thought in comparison with the vishistadvaita.
This would become an interesting discussion, and some useful work will be done, if Hardev sheds his lethargy.
On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:11 PM DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sikhs tell me Sikhi is a standalone. That it is not some kind of extension of Hinduism.. It should therefore be studied by itself.
When I look at the Sikh teaching I cannot but notice that it is rooted in the spiritual soil of India from which it cannot be seen separate.
The spirituality of India seeks constantly to express itself in new forms even as it goes about destroying old forms that no longer serve its needs.
The story of the ten Gurus lays bare the remarkable evolutionary endeavour that was attempted by Sikhism.
It was the genius of the tenth Guru that at a remarkably young age of 33 laid down the foundation for the very first time, of the beginning of a spiritualised society.
The idea of the Khalsa was a premature attempt for which humanity was not yet ready. It is a failing of human nature that is tied to the earth that prevents the Khalsa from reaching its intended potential.
"The Sikh Khalsa, writes Sri Aurobindo, was an astonishingly original and novel creation and its face was turned not to the past but to the future. Apart and singular in its theocratic head and democratic soul and structure, its profound spiritual being, its first attempt to combine the deepest elements of Islam and Vedanta, it was a premature drive towards an entrance into the third or spiritual stage of human society, but it could not create between the spirit and the external life the transmitting medium of a rich creative thought and culture. And thus hampered and deficient it began and ended with narrow local limits, achieved intensity but no power of expansion..." (Foundations of Indian Culture, p. 380)
Sri Aurobindo addresses the deficiency in his expounding of the Integral Yoga, where he lays down the foundational thought that serves as the basis for the transmutation of the ordinary consciousness so necessary to the endeavour.
Sri Aurobindo's yoga is to be seen as more than an extension of Hinduism. It has new elements that are not to be found in the veda or the previous yogas. It in "The Life Divine" that he lays out his entire argument for a new approach to the problem.
No study of the Gurbani can therefore be complete without a reference to The Life Divine. Any expounder of the meaning of Khalsa would be missing out much if he were not to inform himself of the evolving Indian thought.
Listen to Dr. Alok Pandey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2-sWeCuhvgQ
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kirpal singh
Salok.
Shalok:
बहु सासत्र बहु सिम्रिती पेखे सरब ढढोलि ॥
Baho sāsṯar baho simriṯī pekẖe sarab dẖadẖol.
The many Shaastras and the many Simritees - I have seen and searched through them all.
पूजसि नाही हरि हरे नानक नाम अमोल ॥१॥
Pūjas nāhī har hare Nānak nām amol. ||1||
They are not equal to Har, Haray - O Nanak, the Lord's Invaluable Name. ||1||
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DevinderSingh Gulati
----- Forwarded Message -----From: 'Jasbir S Bhatia' via ChardiKalaa Email Network <ck...@googlegroups.com>To: "dali...@btinternet.com" <dali...@btinternet.com>; DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com>; Kulbir Thind <drks...@yahoo.com>; kirpal singh <kirpal...@yahoo.com>Cc: Pritam Singh <psi...@brookes.ac.uk>; Understanding Sikhism <sikh-i...@googlegroups.com>; "sikh-d...@yahoogroups.com" <sikh-d...@yahoogroups.com>; gurpsrehal <gurps...@gmail.com>; Dr. kulwant Singh Virginia USA <sikh_news_...@yahoogroups.com>; Yahoogroups <thebe...@yahoogroups.com>; "torontosik...@yahoogroups.com" <torontosik...@yahoogroups.com>; Gurumustuk Singh <gmu...@sikhnet.com>; "dwarka-si...@googlegroups.com" <dwarka-si...@googlegroups.com>; "si...@yahoogroups.com" <si...@yahoogroups.com>; "sikhyouthr...@yahoogroups.com" <sikhyouthr...@yahoogroups.com>; "sikh_yout...@yahoogroups.com" <sikh_yout...@yahoogroups.com>; "sb...@yahoogroups.com" <sb...@yahoogroups.com>; ChardiKalaa Email Network <ck...@googlegroups.com>; "sikhs-an...@yahoogroups.com" <sikhs-an...@yahoogroups.com>; "business...@yahoogroups.com" <business...@yahoogroups.com>; "sikh_inte...@yahoogroups.com" <sikh_inte...@yahoogroups.com>; "sikhre...@yahoogroups.co.in" <sikhre...@yahoogroups.co.in>; "sikhn...@yahoogroups.com" <sikhn...@yahoogroups.com>; "hyderab...@yahoogroups.com" <hyderab...@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020, 09:47:12 PM EDTSubject: Re: [Cknet] Re: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thoughtRespected all. I don't understand what Mr. Gulati is trying to achieve, and what is his agenda. What is he trying to drive at. Firstly there is no such single stream of philosophy called Hinduism. It is not even a religion. Ok, he means the snatan dharma based on vedas and other scriptures. Sure we can say Guru Nanak used Onmkar as the vedic source. Yes he accepted birth, and rebirth based on our conduct in life or so called Karma (definition may vary). Guru Nanak had his vision and divine inspiration which he needed to express in a religious language. So he mostly used the popular Hindu vocabulary using Bhagat Bani. Because the Indian people were familiar and comfortable with it. He used all the names of bhagwans Ram, Narayan, Thakur, Murari, Gobind, etc. but he always referred these names to the ONE Akalpurkh. He also used some Muslim vocabulary as well. Yes in his wisdom he accepted Non Duality (aduaitya). But beyond that it is simple way forward. He respectfully addressed the aspirations of all religions he came across but offered a simple way of meeting those aspirations. In short whatever be the philosophy, it comes ultimately to the practice of it. It is not meant to be for debates between the philosophers, and scholars.Sikhism is India's home grown religion and not an imported one. So certain commonalities with the existing traditions are bound to be there.Remember in Guru Nanak's time there were the tantric, Gorakhnath, and Sidhas, and Jogis religious religious rituals. So he charted a clear path from all those.If I am to read Mr. Gulati's mind, if we were to agree with him that Sikhism has roots in Hinduism then what. What does he want us to do. Perhaps wants us to declare that Sikhs are Hindus.I agree with Mr. Thind so what does it matter (so be it). Understand that Sikhs as people, as an ethnic community has organically grown out of mostly the " Hindu" and some Muslim community of NW India.Sikhs also have no quarrel with vedas and other scriptures of Snatan Dharma. Just that it may take a life time to study all of them. Sikhs have differed from the ways the vedic dharma is practiced. Religion is tradition associated with the practice.I wonder if Mr. Gulati has studied and understood all the vedas and other scritpures.I find the whole debate as a waste of time. You may continue debating for next hundred years, and there will be no agreement.In any event personally I could careless if it has roots in Hinduism. I will be a sikh and a sikh of Indian origin at the end of it.I wish you all well.Jasbir Singh
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Kulbir Thind
Salok.
Shalok:
बहु सासत्र बहु सिम्रिती पेखे सरब ढढोलि ॥
Baho sāsṯar baho simriṯī pekẖe sarab dẖadẖol.
The many Shaastras and the many Simritees - I have seen and searched through them all.
पूजसि नाही हरि हरे नानक नाम अमोल ॥१॥
Pūjas nāhī har hare Nānak nām amol. ||1||
They are not equal to Har, Haray - O Nanak, the Lord's Invaluable Name. ||1||
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Richa Gautam
On May 25, 2020, at 9:58 PM, 'kapoor kapil' via Understanding Sikhism <sikh-i...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Respected S. Kulbir Thind ji:
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DevinderSingh Gulati
Jasbir S Bhatia
Gill, Rahuldeep
On May 25, 2020, at 20:58, 'kapoor kapil' via Understanding Sikhism <sikh-i...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Respected S. Kulbir Thind ji:
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Rohan Bedi
Dear Sirs,
I would argue that Sikhism is a spiritual path that serves humanity… it is a “Parliament of religions” as our 11th Guru (SGGS) quotes both Hinduism and Islamic Sufi Saints. No one is limited from entering the Gurudwara and the same institution also serves everyone. Sikhs are first to serve people in any calamity and that is at the core of Guru Nanak and all the Guru’s teachings (“They shared the same light”)”. The statistical truth also is that most funding of Gurudwaras in India is by the majority Hindu community that visit our temples… it’s a population percentage reality. So we should treat these differences as man-made and in our minds.
Nonetheless, with the creation of the Akal Takht by the 6th Guru and the Khalsa by the 10th Guru, we can say that Sikhism acquired a specific character that could be said to be a religion or an independent faith. Guru Nanak also clearly shunned many beliefs of the Hindus (caste system in particular) and the Muslims (he clearly talks of 100% equality of women). Please also remember that Nanak studied in a Madrassa, he read the Koran and is known to have prayed at Mosques. So attributing his belief systems to Hinduism purely is difficult. I would describe Sikhism as a reformist spiritual path. Above all its important to note that since Hinduism is one of the oldest religions, many of its beliefs can be traced to a number of subsequent religions including Islam. That is only natural.
Hope this helps the debate.
Best wishes,
Rohan
Please read https://www.gurbanivichar.net/
On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:11 PM DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sikhs tell me Sikhi is a standalone. That it is not some kind of extension of Hinduism. It should therefore be studied by itself.
When I look at the Sikh teaching I cannot but notice that it is rooted in the spiritual soil of India from which it cannot be seen separate.
The spirituality of India seeks constantly to express itself in new forms even as it goes about destroying old forms that no longer serve its needs.
The story of the ten Gurus lays bare the remarkable evolutionary endeavour that was attempted by Sikhism.
It was the genius of the tenth Guru that at a remarkably young age of 33 laid down the foundation for the very first time, of the beginning of a spiritualised society.
The idea of the Khalsa was a premature attempt for which humanity was not yet ready.. It is a failing of human nature that is tied to the earth that prevents the Khalsa from reaching its intended potential.
"The Sikh Khalsa, writes Sri Aurobindo, was an astonishingly original and novel creation and its face was turned not to the past but to the future. Apart and singular in its theocratic head and democratic soul and structure, its profound spiritual being, its first attempt to combine the deepest elements of Islam and Vedanta, it was a premature drive towards an entrance into the third or spiritual stage of human society, but it could not create between the spirit and the external life the transmitting medium of a rich creative thought and culture. And thus hampered and deficient it began and ended with narrow local limits, achieved intensity but no power of expansion..." (Foundations of Indian Culture, p. 380)
Sri Aurobindo addresses the deficiency in his expounding of the Integral Yoga, where he lays down the foundational thought that serves as the basis for the transmutation of the ordinary consciousness so necessary to the endeavour.
Sri Aurobindo's yoga is to be seen as more than an extension of Hinduism. It has new elements that are not to be found in the veda or the previous yogas. It in "The Life Divine" that he lays out his entire argument for a new approach to the problem..
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Parminder Singh Syan
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Subject: [businessforsikhs] Re: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thought
Pritam Singh ji,"To discriminate is human nature" is not a philosophical statement. It is psychology.
Caste and gender discrimination is rife in all societies. Sikhism does not remain untouched, for there again the basic unit is the human..
In the UK, have you faced discrimination? Is the Asian lower down the social hierarchy?Have your brethren run campaigns to counter discrimination.I talk of psychological tendencies embedded in the human psyche.
Caste raises its head in form or another..
In the USA the Black is lower down than the Caucasian.What is it if not a form of caste.Despite Nanak having spoken against it, is caste and gender discrimination not rife in Sikhi?Is it a fact that Gurdwaras are run on caste lines.Is it a fact that government has to run campaigns against female foeticide?Are these social practices attributable to the Sikh religion?Or in the west to the Christian religion.These are psychological factors embedded in human nature.Do you want to recognize that as a fact.The practice of langar, sangat and pangat are pyschological devices.They cannot be construed as philosophical thought.These are attempts at social reform... for the enlightened being is also a social reformer.
All social reformers are not enlightened beings however, take for example Ambedkar..
It is a contested issue..
It is your interpretation that could be wrong.Assuming they did condemn the vedas, how will you find out if they rightly condemned?To find out, you will have to read the six darshanas, will you not?
On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 12:22 AM <dali...@btinternet.com> wrote:
The six Hindu systems of philosophy (astikas) are mutually contradictory. Which one of these is correct? What about the 3 nastika schools namely Charvaka, Buddhist and Jains (I will not mention the poor Ajivikas with their niyati =acceptance of karma, rebirth and suffering fate). If the 3 are Hindus why have you excluded them from the six schools? Convenience I suppose.. Why do we need to read these 6 schools if they all trace their roots to the Vedas and the Sikh Gurus had condemned the Vedas?
Amarjit SinghFrom: sikh-i...@googlegroups.com <sikh-i...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Pritam Singh
Sent: 24 May 2020 16:33
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Subject: Re: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thoughtA few questions on the caste/varna ashram issue I am interested in are:1. Is Varna ashram central to Hinduism?2. If yes, did Nanak and others whose poetry is included in GGS were not making a continued critique of this varna ashram and, therefore, of Hinduism?3. If not, what was Nanak and others criticising?
On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 14:12, DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Gurpreet Singh ji,Indian thought is defined as the six Darshanas. They are referred to in the Gurbani as the six shastars. Do make it a point to study them. Look them up since Gurbani mentions them.>>> Is caste discrimination rooted in Indian thought? <<<None of the six darshnas recommends caste discrimination. Don't take my word for it. Check them out.Discrimination has developed but it is attributable to culture not darshanas.Did Nanak speak against caste?Do Sikhs still practice caste?Why does Nanak's admonition have little effect?The pull of culture, and of human nature to discriminate, is strong.>>> Is idol worship rooted in Indian thought? <<<
None of the six darshanas talks of worshipping idols..
Harmander Singh
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Respected all. I don't understand what Mr. Gulati is trying to achieve, and what is his agenda. What is he trying to drive at. Firstly there is no such single stream of philosophy called Hinduism. It is not even a religion. Ok, he means the snatan dharma based on vedas and other scriptures. Sure we can say Guru Nanak used Onmkar as the vedic source. Yes he accepted birth, and rebirth based on our conduct in life or so called Karma (definition may vary). Guru Nanak had his vision and divine inspiration which he needed to express in a religious language. So he mostly used the popular Hindu vocabulary using Bhagat Bani. Because the Indian people were familiar and comfortable with it. He used all the names of bhagwans Ram, Narayan, Thakur, Murari, Gobind, etc. but he always referred these names to the ONE Akalpurkh. He also used some Muslim vocabulary as well. Yes in his wisdom he accepted Non Duality (aduaitya). But beyond that it is simple way forward. He respectfully addressed the aspirations of all religions he came across but offered a simple way of meeting those aspirations. In short whatever be the philosophy, it comes ultimately to the practice of it. It is not meant to be for debates between the philosophers, and scholars..
Sikhism is India's home grown religion and not an imported one. So certain commonalities with the existing traditions are bound to be there.Remember in Guru Nanak's time there were the tantric, Gorakhnath, and Sidhas, and Jogis religious religious rituals. So he charted a clear path from all those.If I am to read Mr. Gulati's mind, if we were to agree with him that Sikhism has roots in Hinduism then what. What does he want us to do. Perhaps wants us to declare that Sikhs are Hindus.I agree with Mr. Thind so what does it matter (so be it). Understand that Sikhs as people, as an ethnic community has organically grown out of mostly the " Hindu" and some Muslim community of NW India.
Sikhs also have no quarrel with vedas and other scriptures of Snatan Dharma. Just that it may take a life time to study all of them. Sikhs have differed from the ways the vedic dharma is practiced.. Religion is tradition associated with the practice.
State the Sikh cosmogony as sketched by Dr. Jasbir Singh..
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Posted by: DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com>
Potiwal, Sukhdev
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Subject: [businessforsikhs] Re: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thought
Pritam Singh ji,
"To discriminate is human nature" is not a philosophical statement. It is psychology.
Caste and gender discrimination is rife in all societies. Sikhism does not remain untouched, for there again the basic unit is the human..
In the UK, have you faced discrimination? Is the Asian lower down the social hierarchy?
Have your brethren run campaigns to counter discrimination.
I talk of psychological tendencies embedded in the human psyche.
Caste raises its head in form or another..
In the USA the Black is lower down than the Caucasian.
What is it if not a form of caste.
Despite Nanak having spoken against it, is caste and gender discrimination not rife in Sikhi?
Is it a fact that Gurdwaras are run on caste lines.
Is it a fact that government has to run campaigns against female foeticide?
Are these social practices attributable to the Sikh religion?
Or in the west to the Christian religion.
These are psychological factors embedded in human nature.
Do you want to recognize that as a fact.
The practice of langar, sangat and pangat are pyschological devices.
They cannot be construed as philosophical thought.
These are attempts at social reform... for the enlightened being is also a social reformer.
All social reformers are not enlightened beings however, take for example Ambedkar..
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harjinder singh khalsa
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Posted by: "Potiwal, Sukhdev" <Sukhdev...@Siemens.com>
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Richa Gautam
On May 25, 2020, at 11:44 PM, gurbux kahlon <kahlon...@yahoo.com> wrote:
To those in this group who insist Sikhs are Hindus:
hardev nandra
On 26 May 2020, at 13:04, roshan singh malli roshansi...@yahoo.com [businessforsikhs] <business...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Ladies & Gentlemen,
I am not an admin, but below are my thoughts.
This is forum for business and opportnuties, as an exemption perhaps one can share any party seeking help or perhaps news that is vital to the community. This group should share things that are beneficial & brings the community together.
Religion is personal matter and subject to ones own view, and this is not the right forum to discuss this, since it is a business group.
I do not despise or condemn anyones belief, I am just simply reminding that this is not the suitable forum for religious discussions please.
My apologies for any discomfort.
Thank YouRoshan Singh MalliKuala Lumpur
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singh Aujla
Sent: May 26, 2020 8:03 PM
Subject: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thought because it is based on Vedas,the original Aryans Granths
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 1:42 PM
Sikhi is rooted in Indian thought
roshan singh malli
On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 19:30, Parminder Singh Syan pss...@aol.com [businessforsikhs]<business...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
.
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Sunny Anand
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cknet/1788169210.1131790.1590457625347%40mail.yahoo.com.
DevinderSingh Gulati
What I meant about the experiences was simply
this that you have created your own ideas about what you want from the
yoga and have always been measuring what began to come by that standard
and because it was not according to expectations or up to that standard,
telling yourself after a moment, "It is nothing, it is nothing". That
dissatisfaction laid you open at every step to a reaction or a recoil
which prevented any continuous development. The yogin who has experience
knows that 
the small beginnings are of the greatest importance and have to be cherished and allowed with great patience to develop. He
knows, for instance, that the neutral quiet so dissatisfying to the vital eagerness of the sadhak
is the first step towards the peace that passeth all understanding, the
small current or thrill of inner delight the first trickling of the
ocean of Ananda,
the play of lights or colours the key of the doors of the inner vision
and experience, the descent that stiffens the body into a concentrated
stillness the first touch of something at the end of which is the
presence of the Divine. He is not impatient; he is rather careful not to
disturb the evolution that is beginning. Certainly some sadhaks
have strong and decisive experiences at the beginning, but these are
followed by long labour in which there are many empty periods and
periods of struggle.
In a more deep and spiritual sense a concrete realisation is that which makes the thing realised more real, dynamic, intimately present to the consciousness than any physical thing can be. Such a realisation of the personal Divine or of the impersonal Brahman or of the Self does not usually come at the beginning of a sadhana or in the first years or for many years. It comes so to a very few; mine came fifteen years after my first pre-yogic experience in London and in the fifth year after I started Yoga. That I consider extraordinarily quick, an express train speed almost, although there may no doubt have been several quicker achievements. But to expect and demand it so soon would be taken in the eyes of any experienced yogi or sadhak as a rather rash and abnormal impatience. Most would say that a slow development is the best one can hope for in the first years and only when the nature is ready and fully concentrated towards the Divine can the definitive experience come. To some rapid preparatory experiences can come at a comparatively early stage, but even they cannot escape the labour of the consciousness which will make these experiences culminate in the realisation that is enduring and complete. It is not a question of liking or disliking, it is a matter of fact and truth and experience. It is the fact that people who are cheerful and ready to go step by step, even by slow steps, if need be, do actually march faster and more surely than those who are impatient and in haste. It is what I have always seen. [Sri Aurobindo]
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=o8YPZN1MbhEC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq
gurbux kahlon
Richa Gautam
On May 26, 2020, at 9:22 AM, gurbux kahlon <kahlon...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Richa Ji, so are you saying that reconnecting with ancient wisdom that is in vedas (Sanatan Dharma) is the way to go which implies that Gurbani does not have the necessary wisdom. You also state that similar to software, there is a need to renew and debug religions. There also seems to be an assertion that ancient Sanatan Dharma is perfect and does not need debugging and renewal. I am curious which theological concepts and Gurbani teachings you would like debugged and renewed.
Kewal Panessar
Gurpreet Singh ji,
Indian thought is defined as the six Darshanas. They are referred to in the Gurbani as the six shastars. Do make it a point to study them.. Look them up since Gurbani mentions them.
>>> Is caste discrimination rooted in Indian thought? <<<
None of the six darshnas recommends caste discrimination. Don't take my word for it. Check them out.
Discrimination has developed but it is attributable to culture not darshanas.
Did Nanak speak against caste?
Do Sikhs still practice caste?
Why does Nanak's admonition have little effect?
The pull of culture, and of human nature to discriminate, is strong.
>>> Is idol worship rooted in Indian thought? <<<
None of the six darshanas talks of worshipping idols..
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HARDEV SINGH Virk
At last an experience based post. The challenge is to convert experience into realization.Experience is a word that covers almost all the happenings in yoga; only when something gets settled, then it is no longer an experience but part of the siddhi; e.g. peace when it comes and goes is an experience – when it is settled and goes no more it is a siddhi. Realisation is different – it is when something for which you are aspiring becomes real to you; e.g. you have the idea of the Divine in all, but it is only idea, a belief; when you feel or see the Divine in all, it becomes a realisation. [Sri Aurobindo]All this is to make unnecessary distinctions. An experience of a truth in the substance of mind, in the vital or the physical, wherever it may be, is the beginning of realisation. When I experience peace, I begin to realise what it is. Repetition of the experience leads to a fuller and more permanent realisation. When it is settled anywhere, that is the full realisation of it in that place or that part of the being.An experience is an unmistakable thing and must be given its proper value. The mind may exaggerate in thinking about it but that does not deprive it of its value. [Sri Aurobindo]What I meant about the experiences was simply this that you have created your own ideas about what you want from the yoga and have always been measuring what began to come by that standard and because it was not according to expectations or up to that standard, telling yourself after a moment, "It is nothing, it is nothing". That dissatisfaction laid you open at every step to a reaction or a recoil which prevented any continuous development. The yogin who has experience knows that
In a more deep and spiritual sense a concrete realisation is that which makes the thing realised more real, dynamic, intimately present to the consciousness than any physical thing can be. Such a realisation of the personal Divine or of the impersonal Brahman or of the Self does not usually come at the beginning of a sadhana or in the first years or for many years. It comes so to a very few; mine came fifteen years after my first pre-yogic experience in London and in the fifth year after I started Yoga. That I consider extraordinarily quick, an express train speed almost, although there may no doubt have been several quicker achievements. But to expect and demand it so soon would be taken in the eyes of any experienced yogi or sadhak as a rather rash and abnormal impatience. Most would say that a slow development is the best one can hope for in the first years and only when the nature is ready and fully concentrated towards the Divine can the definitive experience come. To some rapid preparatory experiences can come at a comparatively early stage, but even they cannot escape the labour of the consciousness which will make these experiences culminate in the realisation that is enduring and complete. It is not a question of liking or disliking, it is a matter of fact and truth and experience. It is the fact that people who are cheerful and ready to go step by step, even by slow steps, if need be, do actually march faster and more surely than those who are impatient and in haste. It is what I have always seen. [Sri Aurobindo]
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=o8YPZN1MbhEC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq
On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 1:24 AM Sunny Anand <anands...@gmail.com> wrote:
Those who have witnessed (even if briefly, let alone "experienced") the One Indivisible Reality within, can never be swayed or distracted by the very superficial distinctions without. A deep stillness (empty, but ever-potent) and a peace "that passeth all understanding" descends into one's being - it cannot ever be disturbed by thoughts, or feelings, or sensory inputs. Any experience, by definition, is time-limited and space-bound -- the reality that Guru Nanak spoke of is indescribable -- it takes us beyond experience into the realm of Absolute Truth (as envisioned in the Mool Manthra), for which descriptors like "Adviatha" or "Tat-twam-asi" or "Tat-gyaan" or "Aham Brahmasmi" turn out to be insipid caricatures or signposts. Let us sacrifice our separatedness through Seva & Simran, to become worthy of the Divine Grace that establishes our Being in Absolute Truth (or establishes the Absolute Truth in our Being --- in Oneness, there is no difference).Offered with utmost humility and reverence,Yourself, playing another role
On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 6:47 PM 'Jasbir S Bhatia' via ChardiKalaa Email Network <ck...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Respected all. I don't understand what Mr. Gulati is trying to achieve, and what is his agenda. What is he trying to drive at. Firstly there is no such single stream of philosophy called Hinduism. It is not even a religion. Ok, he means the snatan dharma based on vedas and other scriptures. Sure we can say Guru Nanak used Onmkar as the vedic source. Yes he accepted birth, and rebirth based on our conduct in life or so called Karma (definition may vary). Guru Nanak had his vision and divine inspiration which he needed to express in a religious language. So he mostly used the popular Hindu vocabulary using Bhagat Bani. Because the Indian people were familiar and comfortable with it. He used all the names of bhagwans Ram, Narayan, Thakur, Murari, Gobind, etc. but he always referred these names to the ONE Akalpurkh. He also used some Muslim vocabulary as well. Yes in his wisdom he accepted Non Duality (aduaitya). But beyond that it is simple way forward. He respectfully addressed the aspirations of all religions he came across but offered a simple way of meeting those aspirations. In short whatever be the philosophy, it comes ultimately to the practice of it. It is not meant to be for debates between the philosophers, and scholars..
State the Sikh cosmogony as sketched by Dr. Jasbir Singh..
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Posted by: DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com>
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raj dasanjh
On May 25, 2020, at 2:15 PM, 'Kulbir Thind' via ChardiKalaa Email Network <ck...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
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Gurpreet Singh Rehal
Prithviraj Bedi
singh Aujla
Sent: May 26, 2020 8:03 PM
Subject: Sikhi is rooted in Indian thought because it is based on Vedas,the original Aryans Granths
On May 25, 2020, at 11:44 PM, gurbux kahlon <kahlon...@yahoo.com> wrote: