Re: [sikh_news_discussion] Re: [learning-zone] Re: Comparing Philosophies

[Richa Gautam]

and I am not quoting Gurbani but I am inspired by it. Hardev Singhji you asked me earlier about an English quote, that you liked and that was mine as well.

I am definitely interested in watching the video, learning, and debating and sharing-if there are forums that share interfaith understanding, the world would be a better place for it. Mainly because there would be an understanding of each other's point of view. Unfortunately, distrust is the starting point at most forums and especially in the East, there seems to be limited interaction between faiths.

There is a Sanatan interfaith forum where I live and for some reason, I did not see the Sikhs join in though Buddhists Jains and Hindus were adequately represented. At that time, I did not think to inquire why? But maybe there is a long bridge to build and cross before that can happen.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 12:01 AM HARDEV SINGH Virk <hardevsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa.

H'S Virk 

On Sat, 16 May 2020, 10:56 a.m. Tarlochan S. Nahal, <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Rucha,

If you are trying to quote Gurbani. This is NOT Gurbani; this is a misquote:

>Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

Please watch this short video by a Singh. It will open your eyes and will be a good primer for you in Sikhi, especially about Ram.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHqHvXs27s

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 09:24:49 PM PDT, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dr Virk Sahib,

My messages are in response to Mr. Gulati, Richa Gautam and Mr. Koul. They seem to take turns  in spearheading the misinformation campaign against Sikhi!  Khalsa Panth will not take any of this crap from anyone. They cannot just get away with this kind of stuff. So my humble advice to them is to stop wasting their time and mind their own business. Sikh know better about Sikhi than anyone else. We have Sri Guru Granth Sahib as our perpetual spiritual guide which totally rejects Bipar religious hypocrisy.

 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 08:56:26 PM PDT, Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

If we cannot see that Ram, that attribute in a rat, cat, cow, monkey, snake, elephant and a tree, then how can we see it in a Bipar( Brahmin) or anyone.

If there are texts in the Gurbani that are unquotable  here then I question that message and its source. A Gurus love is all encompassing and will never misguide disciples to hate, exclude or disown.

Beyond hate is love, beyond words is silence and beyond all beings is the light within. 

✌️ 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2020, at 8:07 PM, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:



The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "visheshan" or attributives for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it means.

It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that. Sikhs know much better about their religious practices and follow them more closely than you.

One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but those won't make you happy!

Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness. 

We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power of God.

Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty. It is beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to describe it.

I encourage you to continue your religious practice such as cow worship, idol worship, etc. because you are supposed to do it and we do not want to interfere in your religious affairs. You may also continue to worship rats, cats, bats, cows, monkies, donkies, birds, etc., but Bipars should leave the Sikh alone and mind their own business. We have a better idea of Guru's teachings than anyone else. Your caste system, in which you have tried to trap the entire world, is now exposed.

 

Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs. I have nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs either. 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 06:26:49 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in ignorance.

If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference between the upanishad and Gurbani.. The upanisshad gave rise to six darshanas.

Each of these darshanas has a founder, even if Hinduism is santan. What Nanak discovered ere the eternal principles of the vedanta darshana.

In fact one third of the vedanta darshana, because vedanta darshana is propounded in three different ways ( to keep it simple - actually in more than three ways.)

So let me quote from the Isha upanishad. It is a short upanishad of only eighteen verses.

 All this is for habitation¹ by the Lord, whatsoever is individual universe of movement in the universal motion. By that renounced thou shouldst enjoy; lust not after any man’s possession.

Do you recognize the Gurbani in this? It is verse 1.

Doing verily² works in this world one should wish to live a hundred years. Thus it is in thee and not otherwise than this; action cleaves not to a man. ³

^{Again do you recognise Gurbani in this? It is verse .}

6. But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught.  Again Gurbani. It is verse six.
7. He in whom it is the Self-Being that has become all existences that are Becomings⁷ for he has the perfect knowledge, how shall he be deluded, whence shall he have grief who sees everywhere oneness? Verse 7. Is Gurbani different from this?
8. It is He that has gone abroad — That which is bright, bodiless, without scar of imperfection, without sinews, pure, unpierced by evil. The Seer, the Thinker,⁸ the One who becomes everywhere, the Self-existent has ordered objects perfectly according to their nature from years sempiternal.  Do you recognize Gurbani in verse eight?.

11. He who knows That as both in one, the Knowledge and the Ignorance, by the Ignorance crosses beyond death and by the Knowledge enjoys Immortality. Again it is Gurbani.
    

14. He who knows That as both in one, the Birth and the dissolution of Birth, by the dissolution crosses beyond death and by the Birth enjoys Immortality. Verse fourteen of upanishad.

16. O Fosterer, O sole Seer, O Ordainer, O illumining Sun, O power of the Father of creatures, marshal thy rays, draw together thy light; the Lustre which is thy most blessed form of all, that in Thee I behold. The Purusha there and there, He am I.

 

Now this verse sixteen of the upanishad is interpreted by the advaita part of the vedanta darshana as "I am God". that is ho Bhai Satpal explains Gurbani.

But Gurbani takes the vishistadvaita view of the vedanta darshana. That is hat I have been cautioning you about. That Sikhs should be vigilant about how Gurbani is presented.

17. The Breath of things¹¹ is an immortal Life, but of this body ashes are the end. OM! O Will,¹² remember, that which was done remember! O Will, remember, that which was done, remember. In this verse seventeen there is talk of the immortal soul and mortal body. It is Gurbani.

Now look at this footnote on verse one "all this is for the habitation of the Lord":

There are three possible senses of vasyam, “to be clothed”, “to be worn as a garment” and “to be inhabited”. The first is the ordinarily accepted meaning. Shankara explains it in this significance, that we must lose the sense of this unreal objective universe in the sole perception of the pure Brahman. So explained the first line becomes a contradiction of the whole thought of the Upanishad which teaches the reconciliation, by the perception of essential Unity, of the apparently incompatible opposites. God and the World, Renunciation and Enjoyment, Action and internal Freedom, the One and the Many, Being and its Becomings, the passive divine Impersonality and the active divine Personality, the Knowledge and the Ignorance, the Becoming and the Not-Becoming, Life on earth and beyond and the supreme Immortality. The image is of the world either as a garment or as a dwelling-place for the informing and governing Spirit. The latter significance agrees better with the thought of the Upanishad.

That is exactly the rendering of the Gurbani. Satpal is rendering the Shankara vie. It is not Gurbani.

I have not mentioned the other verses because the upanishad goes beyond Gurbani (having given rise to many darshanas), that you are not in a position to absorb, given your present state of mind. If you want to make a really diligent study then read this e-book: https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/

But I am afraid you are merely interested in making superficial noises. If you have the thirst for knowledge read the e-book.

You ill then discover that Sikhism has a founder and vishistadvaita has a founder. Both are sampradayas of the eternal dharma.

Both are identical. The practices of both are different; but they remain philosophically identical. Do not drag practices into this.

You have already embraced some practices that are reprehensible to you as Rawel Singh has pointed out.

Regarding Persian origin of the ved, Richa has already replied to you.

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:45 PM 'Tarlochan S. Nahal' tnah...@yahoo.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Mr. Gulati,

Can you quote any line of Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib that you think is found in any of the Hindu scriptures? As Sardar S.P. Singh has mentioned, none of the Bhagats subscribed to any of the Vedanta philosophies. In fact, they were as rebellious to such thoughts as Guru Nanak Dev. They were all mistreted by the Brahmins. Bhagat Kabir and Nam Dev were physically assaulted for their beliefs. What makes you think Bhagats Ravidas, Kabir, Nam Dev, Trilochan, Dhanna, etc., were the followers of Vedanta philosophy?  All the Hindu "isms" failed to produce any courage or heroism among the Hindus where they could come face to face with reality and deal with it. They were courageous until they met the foreign invaders. Whatever courage they had was subverted by Buddhism and Jainism over 2000 years ago whom you have almost gobbled up like a boa constrictor and claim as yours! You know in your heart that if there was No Khalsa, Hinduism would have been wiped out of India just like Buddhism. 

Gurus chose the Bani of those who were downtrodden, but had a real spiritual message to convey. This is the reason Sikhs do not want to touch anything related to Vedanta with 10-foot pole.. The Gurus certainly made references to some Hindu concepts in explaining their thoughts, but never promoted those concepts. For your information the Gurus never condemned Vedas. In fact, they mention them with respect. The emphasis in Guru Granth Sahib is on Naam Simran, good thinking and good deeds. 

According to the top Hindu philosophers and former President of India, Dr. Radhakrishanan, Hinduism is not a religion; it is a way of living.

I would be grateful to you if you could answer these questions:

1. Where did the Vedanta philosophy come from? 

2. Who started Hinduism and can your name any founder? 

3. What were Hindus before there was Hinduism. What did they believe in?

The Gurus certainly used the prevalent vocabulary when when conveying their message and even used some names of Hindu gods only as "attributives" of God, this does not mean they somehow endorse them or the Hindu philosophy. I think that is the part that you have failed to understand. 

For your information Vedas and Vedic Sanskrit used Persian vocabulary and religious concepts of Avesta and Zoroastrianism. This is not a criticism of Vedas by any stretch of the imagination. What I am saying is that vocabulary and culture are all part of the regional heritage. You need to acknowledge that Sankrit did not originate in India and it came from the Persian region even though Vedas were composed in Punjab.

Please read Asa Ki Var and see what Guru Nanak Dev says about the practices that you are trying to defend and shove down the throats of the Sikhs. 

 

Regards,

 

 

Dr. Tarlochan Singh

 

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 10:18:05 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Sanatan Dharam has six darshanas. One of them is called vedanta darshana.

The highest in vedanta is the nirgun Brahaman.

So how can you claim Nanak's philosophy is very far from sanatan dharam.

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:34 AM S.P. Singh <sp....@gmail.com> wrote:

Gur Fateh 

   Guru Nanak adopted Nirgun philosophy which is far away from Sankaran Dharam . We can say near the Vedas.

    Sanatan way of life discarded people like Ravidas Kabir Namdev etc .

          

                          SPSINGH ex VC

On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 4:30 AM, Rawel Singh brg...@yahoo.co.in [learning-zone] <learni...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hello,

If Guru Nanak was here today he would be disappointed that his Sikhs have forgotten his teachings. They have gone back to chantings and symbolisation which do not purify the mind to make one a better person. He taught obedience to Hukam/Divine will/natural laws to lead a fruitful life.

Rawel Singh

--

S.P. Singh Dr.

Ex-Vice Chancellor, Guru Nanak Dev University

49, GF, Rajguru Nagar, Ludhiana

(Mobile): +91 98142 25278

 

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[HARDEV SINGH Virk]

[Tim Sibia]

Dear All,

 

Is there any logic to continue the debate with Messrs. Gulati and co., it’s a waste of time and resources.

His attitude is becoming tiresome and almost bot like.

Let him be happy with his journey and we continue on our own.

 

TSibia

 

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Subject: Re: [sikh_news_discussion] Re: [learning-zone] Re: Comparing Philosophies

 

 

Mr. Gulati,

Practically you have insulted everybody by calling "uneducated wallowing in the mud" etc. etc.

Actually, you are the one that is stuck in mud sticking to your vishistadvaita bs. 

Every other educated, sensible person whether a Hindu or Christian, Buddhist, Jain or Muslim recognizes the philosophy of

Guru Nanak as an advancement to the old dogma. Because of your commitment to SSA it is very difficult for you to comprehend the TRUTH

mentioned in the Gurbani.

So, stay with your opinion and keep it safe stuck in the old dogma. Nobody on GLZ needs it or wants it.

 

Avtar S. Dhaliwal

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 02:15:40 PM EDT, DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

>>> Sikhs who want to keep their unique identity as Sikhs <<<

 

Can you focus on the similarity - identity actually - here.

1. There is only one reality.

2. It is both immanent and transcendent.

3. This one reality is self conscious and possessed of will.

(When it wills it creates - nothing works outside its hukam)

 

Are these Sikhi principles?

Why do you not confirm it?

They are also vishistadvaita principles.

Why do you want to go your separate way?

 

>>> that you say is presented in Upanshidas <<<

Are you illiterate? The link was given to you.

Or schizophrenic?

 

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 8:17 PM gurbux kahlon <kahlon...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Gulati Ji, instead of spewing hate against Sikhs who want to keep their unique identity as Sikhs, why don’t you spend a few minutes each day understanding the oneness that you say is presented in Upanshidas ? Can you focus on similarities in religions to find common ground? 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2020, at 7:15 AM, DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in ignorance.

If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference between the upanishad and Gurbani. The upanisshad gave rise to six darshanas.

Gurus chose the Bani of those who were downtrodden, but had a real spiritual message to convey. This is the reason Sikhs do not want to touch anything related to Vedanta with 10-foot pole. The Gurus certainly made references to some Hindu concepts in explaining their thoughts, but never promoted those concepts. For your information the Gurus never condemned Vedas. In fact, they mention them with respect. The emphasis in Guru Granth Sahib is on Naam Simran, good thinking and good deeds. 

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[John Cibotti]

“Can you focus on the similarity - identity actually - here.

1. There is only one reality.

2. It is both immanent and transcendent.

3. This one reality is self conscious and possessed of will.

(When it wills it creates - nothing works outside its hukam)”

THIS is at least an interesting argument, Gulati Ji! If you recall, I never sided with either claim, I only wanted evidence to be presented more thoroughly. Your last reply, plus your previous textual reference, make at least a clear and more comprehensive argument! My only question For you (which May have been answered I haven’t been able to read all the responses): the three points you referenced sound similar to the teachings of many religions, so what makes Sikhism the target, as opposed to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.? 

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--

[Richa Gautam]

Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

If we cannot see that Ram, that attribute in a rat, cat, cow, monkey, snake, elephant and a tree, then how can we see it in a Bipar( Brahmin) or anyone.

If there are texts in the Gurbani that are unquotable  here then I question that message and its source. A Gurus love is all encompassing and will never misguide disciples to hate, exclude or disown.

Beyond hate is love, beyond words is silence and beyond all beings is the light within. 

✌️ 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2020, at 8:07 PM, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:



The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "visheshan" or attributives for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it means.

It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that. Sikhs know much better about their religious practices and follow them more closely than you.

One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but those won't make you happy!

Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness. 

We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power of God.

Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty. It is beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to describe it.

I encourage you to continue your religious practice such as cow worship, idol worship, etc. because you are supposed to do it and we do not want to interfere in your religious affairs. You may also continue to worship rats, cats, bats, cows, monkies, donkies, birds, etc., but Bipars should leave the Sikh alone and mind their own business. We have a better idea of Guru's teachings than anyone else. Your caste system, in which you have tried to trap the entire world, is now exposed.

 

Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs. I have nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs either. 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 06:26:49 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in ignorance.

If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference between the upanishad and Gurbani.. The upanisshad gave rise to six darshanas.

Gurus chose the Bani of those who were downtrodden, but had a real spiritual message to convey. This is the reason Sikhs do not want to touch anything related to Vedanta with 10-foot pole.. The Gurus certainly made references to some Hindu concepts in explaining their thoughts, but never promoted those concepts. For your information the Gurus never condemned Vedas. In fact, they mention them with respect. The emphasis in Guru Granth Sahib is on Naam Simran, good thinking and good deeds. 

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Posted by: DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com>

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[DevinderSingh Gulati]

>>> Sikhs who want to keep their unique identity as Sikhs <<<

Can you focus on the similarity - identity actually - here.

1. There is only one reality.

2. It is both immanent and transcendent.

3. This one reality is self conscious and possessed of will.

(When it wills it creates - nothing works outside its hukam)

Are these Sikhi principles?

Why do you not confirm it?

They are also vishistadvaita principles.

Why do you want to go your separate way?

>>> that you say is presented in Upanshidas <<<

Are you illiterate? The link was given to you.

Or schizophrenic?

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 8:17 PM gurbux kahlon <kahlon...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Gulati Ji, instead of spewing hate against Sikhs who want to keep their unique identity as Sikhs, why don’t you spend a few minutes each day understanding the oneness that you say is presented in Upanshidas ? Can you focus on similarities in religions to find common ground? 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2020, at 7:15 AM, DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in ignorance.

If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference between the upanishad and Gurbani. The upanisshad gave rise to six darshanas.

Gurus chose the Bani of those who were downtrodden, but had a real spiritual message to convey. This is the reason Sikhs do not want to touch anything related to Vedanta with 10-foot pole. The Gurus certainly made references to some Hindu concepts in explaining their thoughts, but never promoted those concepts. For your information the Gurus never condemned Vedas. In fact, they mention them with respect. The emphasis in Guru Granth Sahib is on Naam Simran, good thinking and good deeds. 

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Posted by: "Tarlochan S. Nahal" <tnah...@yahoo.com>

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[HARDEV SINGH Virk]

Tarlochan Singh Nahal: When U respond, please DO MENTION WHOM U are addressing? So that there is NO CONFUSION. I guess it is Gulati, may be Richa?

HS Virk

DR HS VIRK

#360, Sector 71, SAS Nagar (Mohali)-160071

Web:http://drhsvirk.weebly.com






 
 

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 7:37 AM Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "visheshan" or attributives for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it means.

It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that. Sikhs know much better about their religious practices and follow them more closely than you.

One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but those won't make you happy!

Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness. 

We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power of God.

Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty. It is beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to describe it.

I encourage you to continue your religious practice such as cow worship, idol worship, etc. because you are supposed to do it and we do not want to interfere in your religious affairs. You may also continue to worship rats, cats, bats, cows, monkies, donkies, birds, etc., but Bipars should leave the Sikh alone and mind their own business. We have a better idea of Guru's teachings than anyone else. Your caste system, in which you have tried to trap the entire world, is now exposed.

 

Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs. I have nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs either. 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 06:26:49 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in ignorance.

If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference between the upanishad and Gurbani.. The upanisshad gave rise to six darshanas.

Gurus chose the Bani of those who were downtrodden, but had a real spiritual message to convey. This is the reason Sikhs do not want to touch anything related to Vedanta with 10-foot pole.. The Gurus certainly made references to some Hindu concepts in explaining their thoughts, but never promoted those concepts. For your information the Gurus never condemned Vedas. In fact, they mention them with respect. The emphasis in Guru Granth Sahib is on Naam Simran, good thinking and good deeds. 

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[Avtar Dhaliwal]

Mr. Gulati,

Practically you have insulted everybody by calling "uneducated wallowing in the mud" etc. etc.

Actually, you are the one that is stuck in mud sticking to your vishistadvaita bs. 

Every other educated, sensible person whether a Hindu or Christian, Buddhist, Jain or Muslim recognizes the philosophy of

Guru Nanak as an advancement to the old dogma. Because of your commitment to SSA it is very difficult for you to comprehend the TRUTH

mentioned in the Gurbani.

So, stay with your opinion and keep it safe stuck in the old dogma. Nobody on GLZ needs it or wants it.

Avtar S. Dhaliwal

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 02:15:40 PM EDT, DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[gurbux kahlon]

[DevinderSingh Gulati]

[Tarlochan S. Nahal]

Dr Virk Sahib,

My messages are in response to Mr. Gulati, Richa Gautam and Mr. Koul. They seem to take turns  in spearheading the misinformation campaign against Sikhi!  Khalsa Panth will not take any of this crap from anyone. They cannot just get away with this kind of stuff. So my humble advice to them is to stop wasting their time and mind their own business. Sikh know better about Sikhi than anyone else. We have Sri Guru Granth Sahib as our perpetual spiritual guide which totally rejects Bipar religious hypocrisy.

 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 08:56:26 PM PDT, Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Tarlochan S. Nahal]

Rucha,

If you are trying to quote Gurbani. This is NOT Gurbani; this is a misquote:

>Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

Please watch this short video by a Singh. It will open your eyes and will be a good primer for you in Sikhi, especially about Ram.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHqHvXs27s

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

[Tarlochan S. Nahal]

The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "visheshan" or attributives for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it means.

It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that. Sikhs know much better about their religious practices and follow them more closely than you.

One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but those won't make you happy!

Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness. 

We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power of God.

Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty. It is beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to describe it.

I encourage you to continue your religious practice such as cow worship, idol worship, etc. because you are supposed to do it and we do not want to interfere in your religious affairs. You may also continue to worship rats, cats, bats, cows, monkies, donkies, birds, etc., but Bipars should leave the Sikh alone and mind their own business. We have a better idea of Guru's teachings than anyone else. Your caste system, in which you have tried to trap the entire world, is now exposed.

 

Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs. I have nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs either. 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 06:26:49 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in ignorance.

If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference between the upanishad and Gurbani.. The upanisshad gave rise to six darshanas.

Gurus chose the Bani of those who were downtrodden, but had a real spiritual message to convey. This is the reason Sikhs do not want to touch anything related to Vedanta with 10-foot pole.. The Gurus certainly made references to some Hindu concepts in explaining their thoughts, but never promoted those concepts. For your information the Gurus never condemned Vedas. In fact, they mention them with respect. The emphasis in Guru Granth Sahib is on Naam Simran, good thinking and good deeds. 

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[HARDEV SINGH Virk]

Dear Friends

I have read ALL POSTS but MY FOCUS will be on just  3-4:

1. Dr Kirpal Singh writes: <It is sad that some prominent members of the Sikh Community of the like of Prof. HS' Virk have shown solidarity with his misguided scholarship.>

I know the ARROW is pointed towards DS GULATI. But let me tell U, he provides me LINKS to all my Queries. I read Daya Nand's SATYAPARKASH sent by Gulati.

Now, I am reading RIG VEDA and RAMANUJA's Philosophy. Tell me is there ANY HARM in getting Knowledge of other religions? It will HELP in juxtaposing SIKH THOUGHT vis a vis Hindu Philosophy. DAYA NAND was DEFEATED by Gyani DIT SINGH in Lahore; McLeod by team of IOSS Chandigarh; DS Gulati is still in the line of firing! Try to engage him?

I feel Rawel Singh and others have failed to satisfy him and answer his query. DS Chahal & Prof. Puran Singh are the only GIANTS who reject Vedanta Influence on Gurbani.

2. RICHA GAUTAM: In fact, this debate hinges on TWO YOUNG LADIES: Gurbax Kahlon and Richa Gautam.

Richa is an intelligent debater WHO GOES AT TANGENT in her posts. She was calling Muslims Brute; I sent her 2 Papers to SHOW THE OTHER SIDE of ISLAM.

For ALL THE ILLS OF HINDU SOCIETY, she FINDS A SCAPEGOAT in BRITISH. She blames British for weakening the RAJPUTS through Opium. What an alibi?

She must read Indian History how RAJPUTS WERE DRIVEN INTO SUB-SERVIENCE & SLAVERY by THE MONGOL Rulers of India by marrying their daughters! 

I wish I could join her INTER-FAITH Groups. In India, I participate in both Inter-faith & Science-Religion Debate, when possible.

3. Ravindra KOUL: The GREAT PHYSICIST caught me on the wrong foot. But I quoted from Dharma Sutra without assigning it to Rig Veda.

He has OBJECTION to my calling BUDDHA PARKASH as THE BEST HISTORIAN OF ANCIENT PUNJAB. 

My fresh reading of his book reveals many new FACTS which go against presumptions of RICHA & KOUL:

(i). Page 64: According to RN Dandekar (The great Hindu historian): Rig Veda hymns were first composed in Bulkh area (beyond borders of Afganistan, bordering present Persia). Its FINAL & Revised version appeared in Sapatsindhu, the old Punjab of 7 rivers. 

(ii) YASKA writes: Rig Veda has 4 different Schools of Interpretations: Naturalists ( Nirukta); Historians; Ritualists; and Mythologists. No one knows WHICH IS Correct?

(iii). Since it has its origins in BULKH (Persia), it has COMMON TERMS with Avestha and PERSIAN Traditions. For example, for Serpent god, Rigveda uses Ahi; Persians use Aji and identical to Ahi in Avestha. 

(iv) Rigveda has INDRA God; Persians ANDRA; Avestha Vrthragna, the term used frequently in Rig Veda also.

(v) Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA.

RIG VEDA Hymns made me hung my head IN SHAME WHEN I READ INDRA was a hard drinker of SOMA; He was a Rapist who enjoyed sex with unmarried girls and Asura woman, whose name appears in Rig Veda. He used a Monkey drug (also a druggist) to increase his sexual prowess! Indra's exploits find a mention in Guru Granth sahib also.  

4. John Ciboti: <My only question For you (which May have been answered I haven’t been able to read all the responses): the three points you referenced sound similar to the teachings of many religions, so what makes Sikhism the target, as opposed to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.?

 Welcome Ciboti; Only Gulati can Answer ur query. I understand THERE IS A COMMON STRAIN ABOUT REALITY in all religions.

HS Virk

PS: I will post Copies of BUDDHA PARKASH's book by e-mail to all those interested. It is on  Amazon.com. 

[gurmukh singh]

Try the link again Dr Virk ji!

It is the right video - at least the one I have just clicked on and watched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHqHvXs27s

Thank you Dr Tarlochan Singh ji - excellent.

These are the sort of Gurbani-reasoned responses we need.

Gurmukh Singh UK

On Saturday, 16 May 2020, 07:01:22 BST, HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsi...@gmail.com [learning-zone] <learni...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa.

H'S Virk 

On Sat, 16 May 2020, 10:56 a.m. Tarlochan S. Nahal, <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Rucha,

If you are trying to quote Gurbani. This is NOT Gurbani; this is a misquote:

>Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

Please watch this short video by a Singh. It will open your eyes and will be a good primer for you in Sikhi, especially about Ram.

SGGS mein Varnit Ram ka Arth Dashrath ka beta nahi hai...

SGGS mein Varnit Ram ka Arth Dashrath ka beta nahi hai... SGGS mein Varnit Ram ka Arth Dashrath ka beta nahi hai.. Wo hai har Zare mein hazir wo satta, wo chetnta, wo par...

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

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[DevinderSingh Gulati]

Gurbani reasoned responses? They are Tat Khalsa driven responses.

Is this Gurbani or not?

1. There is only one reality.

2. It is both immanent and transcendent.

3. This one reality is self conscious and possessed of will.

(When it wills it creates - nothing works outside its hukam)

Go ahead, tell me it is not Gurbani.

The Tat Khalsa has Islamised you.

One section of humanity you find hateful.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:00 PM gurmukh singh sewau...@yahoo.co.uk [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Try the link again Dr Virk ji!

It is the right video - at least the one I have just clicked on and watched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHqHvXs27s

Thank you Dr Tarlochan Singh ji - excellent.

These are the sort of Gurbani-reasoned responses we need.

Gurmukh Singh UK

On Saturday, 16 May 2020, 07:01:22 BST, HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsi...@gmail.com [learning-zone] <learning-zone@yahoogroups..com> wrote:

 

Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa..

H'S Virk 



Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him.. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness.. 

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[Rabinder Koul]

This is to Greatest Physicist Mr Virk’s response to me below.

 Greatest Physicist said, and I quote

<<(i). Page 64: According to RN Dandekar (The great Hindu historian): Rig Veda hymns were first composed in Bulkh area (beyond borders of Afganistan, bordering present Persia). Its FINAL & Revised version appeared in Sapatsindhu, the old Punjab of 7 rivers. >>

1. Bulkh region is close to Bactria a truncated and coruptied form of Vahaalika. Vahaalika were people, who left India after Dasha Ranjanaa war mentioned in 10th Mandala of Rigveda. And Bactria is not part of Persia, it is 1800 Kms from Persia. So much for scholarship. In fact both the Parshu as well as Vahalika were part of confederation of 10 Kings against Puru King Sudaasa, The war was fought in Ravi River region. In which 10 of these were vanquished and eventually were forced to cross Sindu region. The names of the 10 tribes are mentioned in Rigveda. So Dandekar was wrong, he was parroting AIT exactly Greatest Physicst here is parroting.  There is Afghanistana and Balochistan between the Bactria and Persia, that is elementary Geography. 
2. According to the same Dandekar, agreeing with AIT, Arayan came from Persia some where around 1500 to 2000 BC. However the Sapta Sindhu mentioned in Rigveda has Saraswati as the most important river, which flows from Mountain to the Sea, to which it pays Eulogy. It is only in the last 10th Mandala of Rigveda Sindhu is Eulogized. In fact Sindhu is unknown in the Earlier Mandalas. The Sapta Sindhus mentioned start from Ganga, Yamuna, Saraswati, all the way to Vitasta. This is where first Sevens appear bin sequence from Eastern most to the western most.  In between rivers are precisely we know currently in Punjab. 
3. However if the Prof Virk would have paid attention it is well known that Saraswati had Vanished by the 2000 BC. That is earliest by about 2900 BC, as Geologist and Geophysics estimate. So the Question from Mr Virk is, how would Rigveda know of Saraswati when it had already vanished by the time they came in to India? And the sequence is precisely what is found. from Ganga to Vitasta.. Imam Gange Yamune, Saraswti etc etc. 
4. There is no where in Avesta where Andar appears. In Avesta, and Gaatahas India is recognized by two names Veerethagana a cognate of Vrithaghana name associated with Indra in Rigveda. 
5. Indra is not a physical being, as Brahama is not at least in Vedic lore. He is Deva. In fact representing the King go Gods. I had earlier given here the classification of 33 Devas. May be you have heard of Indriyas, as in Karmendriya (organs of Action) and Jyanendriyas (organs of Perception.) The mind here is considered the one who gives the power to cognize. He is the Indra the the 11th one. (also known as 11 Rudras. Rigveda itself says Indra and Rudra are same. But then it seems you keep your power of great Physicist aside, when you have to indulge in your pet object of hate.
6. It is obvious that you are not able to differentiate between the poetic form go imagery and the reality.  So I am not surprised that you keep denigrating Hindu Devatas, and Dharma, as they are object of your hate. And that is what Sikhi must be teaching you. So I really do not expect you to comprehend the subtle aspects here. 
7. I think I may have met you in Paris. I was visiting Henri Poincare Institute, and you were visiting Marie Curie Institute. The reason I recall it because even then you were abusing Rama, reforming Hey Ram as HARAM. My memory is hazy but  that comment had stuck in my mind.
8. Lastly I won’t indulge in denigrating Sikhi, because I will be denigrating Gurus, and I still carry lots of respect for them for what I think they did, and India is grateful to them for that. At least I am. But also remember Mratahas had litteraly wiped teh Mughal out. It was not Sikh centric fight, there were many heroic groups and movements taht started from India, Including Sikhs. 
9. And last but not the least, Sikhs did not come from Vacuum, they were product of Hindu Society and the circumstances then. Guru Nanak ji was not bra Sikh but of HIndu Parents, with lineage tying him to SHri Rama of Ayodhya. When you call Hety Rama Haram, you are reflecting of Guru Nanak ji. Keep that in mind.

Ravindra Koul

अस्मद्रूपसमाविष्ठ: स्वात्मनात्मानिवारणे 

शिव: करोतु निजया नम: शक्त्या ततात्मने 

[HARDEV SINGH Virk]

Kirpal Singh Jee: U fail to UNDERSTAND the implications of the post. It also tells U about ATTACKS on Sikhi by Dya Nand & McLeod & Gulati and his ilk. I know U are not concerned about  counteracting the present attacks at Academic & intellectual levels.  Knowledge of Indian religions will HELP U in understanding Gurbani in a much better way.

HS Virk

DR HS VIRK

#360, Sector 71, SAS Nagar (Mohali)-160071

Web:http://drhsvirk.weebly.com






 
 

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 5:56 AM kirpal singh <kirpal...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"I know the ARROW is pointed towards DS GULATI. But let me tell U, he provides me LINKS to all my Queries. I read Daya Nand's SATYAPARKASH sent by Gulati.

Now, I am reading RIG VEDA and RAMANUJA's Philosophy. Tell me is there ANY HARM in getting Knowledge of other religions? It will HELP in juxtaposing SIKH THOUGHT vis a vis Hindu Philosophy"- HS Virk, India

...............................................

Dear Hardev Virk Ji,

It important to first dip into the vast and deep ocean of Gurmat (Gurbani) first and then look for other avenues if you desire for a need, if ant, to look around. To have a solid base in Gurbani will pose a lesser danger to be lost in other faiths/philosophies.

A firm faith and conviction in Gurbani provides one a stable and solid platform to embrace similarities in Spiritual Truths without bringing a dilution in your own faith as a matter of caution.

Please ask your friend DS Gulati to spend his resources to dig into the Hindu Scriptures to come up the crystalline messages for the consumption of masses to bring peace and serenity their lives rather than traces and linking the Gurbani with ancient Hindu Scriptures. I am sure that there are plenty of good and useful messages worth appreciation by the Humanity.

Wish you all the best in your chosen endeavors, which need to be focused in a short human life.

Kirpal Singh

Wellington, New Zealand

[gurmukh singh]

Ah so Gulati Saab, the intellectual ghultia!

There are also Gurbani-based responses for your type of sing-phsao pandit-moorakhs.

I am just a village idiot!

Thanks

Gurmukh Singh UK

On Saturday, 16 May 2020, 16:27:33 BST, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Gurbani reasoned responses? They are Tat Khalsa driven responses.

Is this Gurbani or not?

1. There is only one reality.

2. It is both immanent and transcendent.

3. This one reality is self conscious and possessed of will.

(When it wills it creates - nothing works outside its hukam)

Go ahead, tell me it is not Gurbani.

The Tat Khalsa has Islamised you.

One section of humanity you find hateful.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:00 PM gurmukh singh sewau...@yahoo.co.uk [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Try the link again Dr Virk ji!

It is the right video - at least the one I have just clicked on and watched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHqHvXs27s

Thank you Dr Tarlochan Singh ji - excellent.

These are the sort of Gurbani-reasoned responses we need.

Gurmukh Singh UK

On Saturday, 16 May 2020, 07:01:22 BST, HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsi...@gmail.com [learning-zone] <learning-zone@yahoogroups..com> wrote:

 

Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa...

H'S Virk 

On Sat, 16 May 2020, 10:56 a.m. Tarlochan S. Nahal, <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Rucha,

If you are trying to quote Gurbani. This is NOT Gurbani; this is a misquote:

>Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

Please watch this short video by a Singh. It will open your eyes and will be a good primer for you in Sikhi, especially about Ram.

SGGS mein Varnit Ram ka Arth Dashrath ka beta nahi hai....

SGGS mein Varnit Ram ka Arth Dashrath ka beta nahi hai... SGGS mein Varnit Ram ka Arth Dashrath ka beta nahi hai.. Wo hai har Zare mein hazir wo satta, wo chetnta, wo par...

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 09:24:49 PM PDT, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dr Virk Sahib,

My messages are in response to Mr. Gulati, Richa Gautam and Mr. Koul. They seem to take turns  in spearheading the misinformation campaign against Sikhi!  Khalsa Panth will not take any of this crap from anyone. They cannot just get away with this kind of stuff. So my humble advice to them is to stop wasting their time and mind their own business. Sikh know better about Sikhi than anyone else. We have Sri Guru Granth Sahib as our perpetual spiritual guide which totally rejects Bipar religious hypocrisy.

 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 08:56:26 PM PDT, Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

If we cannot see that Ram, that attribute in a rat, cat, cow, monkey, snake, elephant and a tree, then how can we see it in a Bipar( Brahmin) or anyone.

If there are texts in the Gurbani that are unquotable  here then I question that message and its source. A Gurus love is all encompassing and will never misguide disciples to hate, exclude or disown.

Beyond hate is love, beyond words is silence and beyond all beings is the light within. 

✌️ 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2020, at 8:07 PM, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:



The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "visheshan" or attributives for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it means.

It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that. Sikhs know much better about their religious practices and follow them more closely than you.

One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but those won't make you happy!

Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him.. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness.. 

We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power of God.

Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured.. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty. It is beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to describe it.

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__,_._,___

[kirpal singh]

"I know the ARROW is pointed towards DS GULATI. But let me tell U, he provides me LINKS to all my Queries. I read Daya Nand's SATYAPARKASH sent by Gulati.

Now, I am reading RIG VEDA and RAMANUJA's Philosophy. Tell me is there ANY HARM in getting Knowledge of other religions? It will HELP in juxtaposing SIKH THOUGHT vis a vis Hindu Philosophy"- HS Virk, India

...............................................

Dear Hardev Virk Ji,

It important to first dip into the vast and deep ocean of Gurmat (Gurbani) first and then look for other avenues if you desire for a need, if ant, to look around. To have a solid base in Gurbani will pose a lesser danger to be lost in other faiths/philosophies.

A firm faith and conviction in Gurbani provides one a stable and solid platform to embrace similarities in Spiritual Truths without bringing a dilution in your own faith as a matter of caution.

Please ask your friend DS Gulati to spend his resources to dig into the Hindu Scriptures to come up the crystalline messages for the consumption of masses to bring peace and serenity their lives rather than traces and linking the Gurbani with ancient Hindu Scriptures. I am sure that there are plenty of good and useful messages worth appreciation by the Humanity.

Wish you all the best in your chosen endeavors, which need to be focused in a short human life.

Kirpal Singh

Wellington, New Zealand

[mrs kaur]

Dear broters,

It is a dialogue of the deaf, and it will lead us nowhere !

Mrs Kaur

On Saturday, 16 May 2020, 13:30:21 CEST, Raja Singh Sehgal rajasi...@yahoo.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Agree with Sardar SP Singh to close this discussion

Raja Singh Missionary

Brampton,ON

On Saturday, May 16, 2020, 06:08:20 a.m. EDT, HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsi...@gmail.com [learning-zone] <learni...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Dear Friends

I have read ALL POSTS but MY FOCUS will be on just  3-4:

1. Dr Kirpal Singh writes: <It is sad that some prominent members of the Sikh Community of the like of Prof.. HS' Virk have shown solidarity with his misguided scholarship.>



Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs.. I have nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs either. 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

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[Raja Singh Sehgal]

Agree with Sardar SP Singh to close this discussion

Raja Singh Missionary

Brampton,ON

On Saturday, May 16, 2020, 06:08:20 a.m. EDT, HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsi...@gmail.com [learning-zone] <learni...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Dear Friends

I have read ALL POSTS but MY FOCUS will be on just  3-4:

1. Dr Kirpal Singh writes: <It is sad that some prominent members of the Sikh Community of the like of Prof.. HS' Virk have shown solidarity with his misguided scholarship.>



Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs.. I have nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs either. 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

__._,_.___

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Posted by: HARDEV SINGH Virk <hardevsi...@gmail.com>

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Reply to sender

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Please promote the learning of Gurbani, Gurmat and Sikh History amongst your near and dear ones by asking them to join the Gurmat Learning Zone (GLZ). To join GLZ or recommend someone's name, send an email to learning-...@yahoogroups.com

GLZ posts may be quoted for comment and to promote discussion. However, no member of GLZ shall use GLZ posts for the purpose of insulting or discrediting fellow GLZ members, either on GLZ, or through any other forum or publication.

Feedback and suggestions may be sent to our Editorial Advisory Board at learning...@yahoogroups.com 

GLZ is part of the Akaal Purkh Ki Fauj international movement.

Click http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikh-dharma-manual.asp to view the Sikh Reht Maryada.

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[Jaidev Singh ANAND]

When most Hindus of India and others of the world are admiring the great services being provided by Sikhs 

to stranded citizens -our scholars are busy discussing what ”Sikhism is what it is not”

Advaita and Vedas may have similar texts perceived intellectually BUT spiritually they are miles apart. as they are in practice. God bless Sikhs and all who are serving humanity without claiming ”Anubhav” or great insight of Unmnown ”Akath”-which Gurus claimed can not be known. 

Jaidev Singh Anand

Sing...@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsi...@gmail.com [learning-zone] <learni...@yahoogroups.com>
To: Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com>
Cc: Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com>; sikh_news_discussion-owner <sikh_news_dis...@yahoogroups.com>; S.P. Singh <sp....@gmail.com>; learning-zone <learni...@yahoogroups.com>; Dalvir Pannu DDS <pann...@pannudental.com>; Devinder SIngh Chahal- IUScanada <iusc...@gmail.com>; Dr. kulwant Singh Virginia USA <sikh_news_...@yahoogroups.com>; Jaswant Singh <jaswan...@sikhri.org>; Nirmal Singh <env...@yahoo.com>; Understanding Sikhism <sikh-i...@googlegroups.com>; kahlongurbux <kahlon...@yahoo.com>; kirpal singh <kirpal...@yahoo.com>; Dr.Harpal Singh <dr.harp...@gmail.com>; Rabinder Koul <ravind...@gmail.com>; dwarka-sikh-sangat <dwarka-si...@googlegroups.com>; panthkhalsa <panth...@googlegroups.com>; bangaloresikhs <bangalo...@yahoogroups.com>; yahoogroups <thebe...@yahoogroups.com>; Harpreet Singh <si...@fas.harvard.edu>
Sent: Sat, May 16, 2020 06:08 AM
Subject: Re: [sikh_news_discussion] Re: [learning-zone] Re: Comparing Philosophies

 

Dear Friends

.

__,_._,___

[Avtar Dhaliwal]

On Saturday, May 16, 2020, 04:06:30 PM EDT, Avtar Dhaliwal gurav...@yahoo.com [learning-zone] <learni...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Here is the answer to Gulati's questions from a chapter in my book "SuNN, Soul, and Heavens on Earth."

UNIQUENESS IN GURU NANAK’S

PHILOSOPHY 

The term ‘Uniqueness,’ according to “Oxford Dictionary” means, ONLY

ONE OF ITS KIND; UNLIKE ANYTHING ELSE, ORIGINAL AND

INCOMPARABLE, PARTICULARLY REMARKABLE, SPECIAL, OR

UNUSUAL.

Philosophy: The term, ‘Philosophy’, has been defined in different ways from

time to time. The Encarta Dictionary defines the term ‘Philosophy’ as, the

branch of knowledge or academic study devoted to the systematic

examination of basic concepts such as truth, existence, reality, causality, and

freedom.

According to the Encarta Dictionary, The term ‘Thought’ used here means:

the intellectual, scientific, and philosophical ideas associated with a particular place, time, or group.

“The term, ‘Uniqueness’, means the quality of being one of a kind; different

from others in a way that makes somebody or something special and worthy

of note. Any scripture claiming to be inspired by divine blessings must also

be acceptable on the strength of its own reason and logic.” Excerpt From:

Zakir Naik. “The Qur'an & Modern Science.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/

zLkHD.l

The Gurbani written by the primal Sikh Guru, Guru Nanak Sahib Ji and

incorporated in the Holy Scripture—Aad Guru Granth Sahib, considering his

’thought’ after critical and systematic examination of the prevailing religious

concepts such as truth, reality, causality, and freedom, can be promulgated as

his ‘philosophy.’

In addition to being a Divine-inspired person, Guru Nanak Sahib was well-educated

in the prevailing languages, scriptures, literature, social sciences, and cultures of different religions. During his 28 years of travel

throughout India and abroad, he experienced different cultures, held

discussions, and dialogues with various religious and non-religious people.

Had he observed any uniformity in the religious/spiritual messages he

encountered or universality in the comprehension of God, the laws of the

universe, and in the phenomenal nature; he would have probably not uttered

another word to describe it differently. Apparently he neither found

uniformity in the religious messages nor universality among the world

religious praxis. Instead, he found everyone was/is clinging to their own God

and their magical and miraculous endeavors.

Guru Nanak (late 15th century and early 16th century) observed certain

false, self-serving practices in both Sanatan Dharma and Islam, which were

the most prevalent religions of India at the time. The age-old caste system

promulgated by Hindu hierarchy and Muslim theory of proselytization by

persuasion, pressure, and persecution forcing people to adopt Islam as their

Religion had degenerated ethics and morals in the Indian populace. There was much corruption and falsity in all aspects of life. 

Unfortunately, as considered true today, there was much greed and corruption even at the time

existing in religious circles.

Guru Nanak Sahib Ji’s Philosophy

God

From the Holy Scriptures incorporated in Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS)

[1], it is obvious that Guru Nanak posited God as an invisible, indescribable, non-judgmental, God of Grace, not monopolized by one

Religion or one nation. The uniqueness of Guru Nanak Sahib’s philosophy

comes from the idea that a person’s conceptualization of God is an intimate

and individual experience that does not require God to be incarnated in a

Human or angelic form. Guru Nanak Sahib espoused that a person can

Realize the attributes of God directly without the need for an intermediary. To

help people feel responsible for their own actions and respect themselves as

Independent humans; he started unique philosophic diversions plus more to

divest people with the inherent meaning of ‘Truthful Living’--a unique

realization with its own unique philosophy, accepting Hukm (natural

phenomena), obeying, and living by it.

Guru Nanak sought to distinguish from such debauchery by considering the

possibility of a spiritual belief that was based on the Ultimate Truth that

there is one God for the whole of humanity. The service to God could be

achieved within, while still functioning as an ordinary householder.

Most of Guru Nanak’s Bani deals with an inquiry into prevalent concepts,

provides a suitable explanation and resolve to the ultimate reality. Such rational and honest inquiry makes his Bani, a philosophic examination of basic concepts of Truth and existence within phenomenal nature.

Equality

As further evidence of Guru Nanak’s original world view, he sought to

eliminate disparity in humanity based upon class, creed, caste, and gender,

and promoted equality among all human beings. He believed and preached,

that the status of a woman was equal to a man because he deeply appreciated

the woman’s role as a mother.

Guru AmarDas supplementing Nanakian philosophy expounded on the disparity among Indian people due to caste system, when he wrote:

Jaat ka garbh na karyeo koiee, Brahm bindae so brahmann hoiee ॥੧॥

Jaat ka garbh na kar moorakh gwaraa ॥ Iss garbh tae chalae bhuth baekaraa ॥੧॥Rehaoe.

Chaaroe(n) Varn aakae subh koiee. brahm bind tae subh oopar hoiee ॥੨॥

Maatee aek sagal sansaaraa lL Bahu bidhi bhandae gharrae kumhaaraa ॥੩॥

Panch thuth mili daehee kaa akaaraa ॥ ghat vadh ko kuhae bicharaa ॥    

No one should be proud of his caste (based upon (Manu Simritis Caste

classification).

He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the original source of it All. ||1||

O’Brahman, do not be so proud of your caste and status, you ignorant fool!

So much sin and corruption comes from this pride. ||1||Pause||

Everyone believing in Manu Simritis caste system says, that there are four

c a s t e s , a n d  f o u r s o c i a l c l a s s e s .

They all emanate from the same source of Natural phenomena. ||2||

The same clay makes the entire universe.

The Potter (God) has shaped it into many vessels. ||3||

The five elements join, to make up the form of the human body.

Who can say which is less, and which is more? ||4||

AGGS, M3, p 1127.

From the Sabd of Guru Amardas Ji quoted above belief in the uniformity

among humanity and universality of the same God is further affirmed as Unique philosophical thought of Guru Nanak. 

No caste is high or low nor it condemns a man sinner or a sanctified being, but it judges him by the thoughts and deeds of one’s own doing.

UNIQUENESS AND UNIVERSALITY IN GURU NANAK’S

PHILOSOPHY

Guru Nanak’s unique philosophy, to enrich social ethics and morals of man involved the integration of the spiritual life with the empirical life.

 It promoted acceptance of Hukm (the Laws of Universal natural phenomena), humility, honesty, equality in humanity, service, sacrifice, 

Martyrdom, and total responsibility as the basic Universal Consciousness. Guru Nanak believed that humanity ought to live in complete harmony with the pursuit of spirituality, and not to be ‘throw away human life in asceticism’ or abandonment for an unknown higher being. 

A Sikh of Guru Nanak is supposed to be a devotee of the Akal

Purakh while being a householder, a peacemaker, a protestor against injustice, and a priest unto oneself.

Idol worship in Guru Nanak’s View

There is no place of worship for Idols, gods, and

Goddesses or seeking blessings from the tombs and trees. Guru Nanak Sahib believed that the only logical way to realize God and salvation was by

surrendering to God’s Will (Natural Laws) and living an honest and

truthful life. According to Guru Nanak, the human did not evolve to suffer for any ‘primal sin but to realize the purpose of human life within the cosmos.

He promulgated that human life is not sinful in its origin, but having emanated from pure source remains pure in its essence; unless indulged in

Maya (creating illusive materialism through supernatural, magical, or sacred power) brings sufferings upon him or herself.

Pursuit of happiness

Guru Nanak’s pursuit of the Truth in life on Earth required ethical control over human emotions and passions and sought to demystify the dogmatic old mysticism protected by the dominant religions. Guru Nanak’s philosophy provided two essential premises in search of the Truth: rationalism and

individualism. Guru Nanak Sahib opined that these premises would serve Sikh disciples to accept the inevitable and natural events of

human life, good or bad as Natural phenomena, rather than constantly seeking Divine Intervention. Further, Guru Nanak Sahib did not just promote the Truth as a mental inquiry but suggested that the Truth is above everything, yet higher still is the conduct in Truthful living.

To comprehend uniqueness in the Guru Nanak’s philosophy, it is best

explicated by McLeod [3], when he wrote, “Plainly there is much that is

profoundly original in the hymns which we find recorded under his

(NANAK) the distinctive symbol in the Aad Granth. There is in them an integrated and coherent system which no other Sant (Saint) has produced; there is a clarity which no other Sant has equaled and there is a beauty which no other Sant has matched. There is the question of permanence. That Nanak appointed a successor to follow him is scarcely unique, but nothing in the Sant experience can compare to the Panth which was eventually to emerge from that decision..."

CONCLUSION

Guru Nanak developed a unique philosophical Holy Script on that whole Humanity could embrace its uniformity and universality. It promulgates One God for whole humanity with no boundaries. It promotes human to be responsible for truthful living and progress in spirituality by developing direct comprehension, realization, actualization, and internalization of the universal laws of natural phenomena. There is no place in Guru Nanak’s philosophy for Idolatry, Anthropomorphic gods/ goddesses, or worship of tombs and trees. The references applied in the Holy Scripture, AGGS are for consideration to

Appreciate his unique philosophy. There is no synthesis or syncretism of other religious Scriptures applied in the evolution of Guru Nanak’s Unique

Philosophy.

REFERENCES

1. AGGS = Aad Guru Granth Sahib 1983 reprint. Pp 1430. Publishers:

Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak

!68

Committee, Amritsar. (M = Mahla i.e. succession number of the Sikh Guru

to the house of Guru Nanak.

p= pages of the AGGS.

2. Chahal, Devinder S. 2002, Nanakian Philosophy-The term defined.

Understanding Sikhism, Res. J. 4(2); 17-22.

3. McLeod, W H: 1989, The Sikhs: History, Religion and Society: Page 31.

Columbia University Press, New York

I hope it satisfies his quest for learning uniqueness in the Sikhi of Guru Nanak.

Avtar Singh Dhaliwal

On Saturday, May 16, 2020, 10:27:04 AM EDT, DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Richa has already replied to Hardev. I wish to take up a few points.

>>> Sikhs tend to deny any relationship with Hindu society. The Sikh may deny him or not, the Hindu has already denied the Sikh. <<<

It is poor scholarship that touts someones opinion without substantiation.

>>> For the Hindus, the way to survival and freedom is the Guru’s way. Unless they accept Guru Granth as their new Gita, the old scriptures and the stories from Ramayana and Mahabharata can no longer inspire new life into the mass of people whose backbone has been crushed by systematic metaphysical and theological burdens.

The Hindus in the Punjab have much to answer for. They find more in Bhagavat Gita and the old Vedas than in Guru Granth. They relate themselves to the bards of Vedas more than the Gurus.  <<<

Enters here the supramist view of the Tat Khalsa that is the bane of Sikhi today. It is giving rise to the quacks, slacks and bubbles. Everyday Gurbux Kahlon floats a new bubble that inevitably busts. It is what produces the intemperance of Tarlochan Nahal, Avtar Dhaliwal and SP Singh in an onset of unreason. They keep hammering on uniqueness but flinch from giving a straight answer, what in its philosophy is unique. Again and again I have asked the question is this not Sikhi, how is it unique:

1. There is only one reality.

2. It is both immanent and transcendent.

3. This one reality is self conscious and possessed of will.

From this one task needed they all flinch from.

>>> In the past the teaching of the Gita has never been harnessed to action or the Upanishads to love of the people. There has been no phenomenon of transmutation of personality by a higher Being’s personal touch on any large scale, as in Sikh history. <<<

So what was the phenomena of Kabir, and Ramanand and Ravidass. Not this?

How can Hardev swallow that lock stock and barrel?

>>> The Sikh believes in one great culture of man which is yet to come. <<<

And all that Hardev can focus on is the great culture of Sikhs. Petty.

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM HARDEV SINGH Virk <hardevsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Richa Gautam posed in her recent posts many queries/questions; I have tried to answer as per my knowledge of History & Sacred Texts:

 

1. You never answered when Nanak and Kabir dissed Brahmins. I have only heard their lofty spiritual words  that encompass all people as one.

 

Virk: Kabir was a much stronger critic of Brahmins than even Guru Nanak. In one of his Shabads in Guru Granth Sahib, Kabir provokes Brahmin by asking " If U are a brahmin born of a Brahmani (lady), then why U are not born in a different way than normal human beings?" He wrote Kashi is NO MORE sacred than any other place.

 

2. The Hindu culture is well known for its spiritual quest and thirst for knowledge just as Islam is known for its brute force.

 

Virk: U are TOTALLY MISTAKEN. U made False claims about Indian Maths. in one post. It is TRUE INDIAN PHILOSOPHY had its Golden period in history but the ISLAMIC SCHOLARS of tenth century went ahead of Hindu Philosophers. IBN SINA born in CE 980 (known as Avecenna to Europeans) wrote 99 treatises on Physics, Medicine, Poetry, .... His 4 books on " Canon of Medicine" were taught in European Universities for 400 years!! I can count one dozen others who ruled the world of knowledge. Greek knowledge was transmitted through Arabic Scholars to Europe. It is part of History of Science now.

 

 

3.  And the Khalsa came to defeat that barbarianisṃ of Babar and his progeny.

Virk: It is again a misconception. KHALSA was created to rule the world. Pl. read my brief write up and references at the end.

 

 

4.. By allowing average humans and a committee to decide whether Sikhs should do Parikrama, whether they can be Sanatani or Khalsa, whether they can be excommunicated or included; it is autocratic and not spiritual. 

Virk: Yes, U are right to some extent. Guru Granth Sahib is Universal and NONE can be excluded from the Sikhi of Guru Nanak.

5. The reason Sikhs don't persecute or indulge in terrorism or hate crimes shows that they are still close to their roots, erudition, and spirituality of Sanatani traditions. But if they continue to tamper with the text calling Ik Onkar as Ik O Beant and rejecting the feminine or Chandi or Bhaugati and modifying the text to suit their concepts of HOW SIKHISM SHOULD REALLY BE(Abrahamic??), they will become rigid and move further from the spiritual traditions of whence it was born. My prayers are that that day should never come.

Virk: Dr DS Chahal will answer this question; he is a votary of this pronunciation.

6. Wherever there is no diversity and no democracy, there is dogma.

    Where there' s dogma there's extremism 

    Where there is extremism there is persecution complex.

    Where there is persecution complex there is terrorism.

Virk: I like this rhyme. Who said it? Let me know.

 

I post some Excerpts from my book Professor Puran Singh: Scientist, Poet and Philosopher

Puran Singh’s Views on Sikh Gurus

 

After Buddha, it was Guru Nanak who for the first time championed the cause of the masses in caste-ridden India. The rich aristocracy and the degraded priests of Hindus and Muslims did not listen to the Guru, but the oppressed people followed him with joy. He made a whole people throb with love and life. For more than a century and a half his message was secretly flaming in the bosom of the people when the genius of Guru Gobind Singh gave them the eternal shape of the Disciples, the Khalsa.

 

Guru Gobind Singh is the Guru of the modern times. Assuredly, the slaves of India have not understood Him so far and are not capable of understanding His genius. The shadow of his large personality falls far away above the head of centuries, and the so-called best intellectuals of India, when they spread out their mind to understand the Guru, get bruised by mere thorns and give Him up as something not as spiritual as Guru Nanak. It they cannot see Guru Gobind Singh as the highest, brightest culmination of Guru Nanak, assuredly they do not understand that King of revolution of religious thought, the great Guru Nanak.

 

The world of thought has yet to understand the Ten Gurus in the splendour of their thought which has been misunderstood due to the Brahmanical language they had to employ to express themselves and to the Brahmanical environment which always has been inimical to the true progress of man.

 

The Guru Granth of the Sikhs is the most authentic account of the Guru’s soul. It is a pity that some Sikh enthusiasts and half-baked scholars, perverted by the thought of the age, have tampered with the meanings they themselves wish to give it. But the authentic word of Guru Granth can never be lost to the world. And as the Bible is translated into different languages, so Guru Granth will have to be put by poets of different nations into their own language direct from their own souls. Life alone can translate life.

 

The Guru Granth is the history of the Sikh soul, and its translation is to come through the great figure of the social reconstruction of human society as the Khalsa, where shall reign love, and not hatred. Without the Word of the Guru, and the ideal, the Khalsa, which stands for the sovereign society, there is no key to the heart of Guru Nanak and his anthems for the liberation of man. Its interpretation lies in our human soul, not in the meanings of this life creative music. The destruction by the Guru of the Brahmanical Citadels of superstition (as in Guru Nanak’s Asa-Ki-Var or in the great Kabits and Sawayyas of the Tenth Master, Guru Gobind Singh, or in the Vars of Bhai Gurdas, the great exponent of Sikh ideals), is symbolic of the destruction of all lies on which human society might be wrongly founded and misguided. Guru Nanak is universal, but he is mostly the Prophet of the future. Freedom of the human mind and soul is the Guru’s passion.

 

All freedom is but a spiritual tradition of the life of the Khalsa: if the Khalsa spirit is dead, all freedom fails. The Khalsa is the son of the Guru who brings everywhere his Heaven and its delectable freedoms.

 

Genesis of Hindu-Sikh Divide

 

It might seem that owing to the hostility of an environment, and the not unoften deliberate attempts of the Hindu society to obliterate the Sikh ideals, Sikhs tend to deny any relationship with Hindu society. The Sikh may deny him or not, the Hindu has already denied the Sikh. The great Hindu culture and its innate influence on Sikh culture, however, cannot be denied. It would be to deny one’s parentage. Such denials add nothing to the stature of the Sikh. All that is lofty and noble must be and is fully reflected in the soul of Sikhism, for matter of that, not Hindu culture alone, but all human culture itself. The Sikh is rather spiritualistic in his consciousness than metaphysical.

 

In view of the political solidarity of India it is mischievous for anyone to suggest that we

are not of the Hindu and not equally of the Muslims. It is mischievous to multiply the points of difference with the Hindu, which are not fundamental.

 

The Gurus have shown to Hindus the way to freedom of mind and soul and also to political freedom. The Hindus, out of the spirit of vain intellectual pride have withheld themselves from the resurgence that Sikhism would bring. For the Hindus, the way to survival and freedom is the Guru’s way. Unless they accept Guru Granth as their new Gita, the old scriptures and the stories from Ramayana and Mahabharata can no longer inspire new life into the mass of people whose backbone has been crushed by systematic metaphysical and theological burdens. Political slavery has been the result of their metaphysical mentality. The Hindus in the Punjab have much to answer for. They find more in Bhagavat Gita and the old Vedas than in Guru Granth. They relate themselves to the bards of Vedas more than the Gurus.

 

The Hindus failed Guru Gobind Singh but Guru Gobind Singh has not failed them. They have not understood him; he understood them. As they have grown so apathetic, almost antagonistic to the message of the Gurus, it is essential that the basic unique character of Sikh

culture should now be expressed.

 

Physics of Spirituality

 

In the scheme of human progress there is such a thing as the physics of spirituality; the

Hindu has ignored it, the Western races have realized it. Because of their comprehensive vision, the Khalsa shall have the spiritual and temporal sovereignty and all shall submit to it, soon or late. Only those shall be saved, who gather under this flag. The Hindus, so far, have not seen the significance of the Guru’s creation, the Khalsa.

 

Great Hindu philosophers like Tilak, Aurobindo and Tagore are reinterpreting the Gita and the Upanishads in order to come abreast with modern Western thought and scientific conclusions. But they do not see that more than four hundred years ago, their own country-men, the Sikh Gurus, actually worked all these modern tendencies into the constitution of the mind and society of this unhappy land, by creating the Khalsa.

 

Some modern typical Hindus are trying to interpret Upanishads and the Gita in modern modes. But such attempts are against the traditional faith that has gathered round these books.

And, however easily they may be interpreted in the modern modes; they have never shown the great reactivity that is attributed to them. In the past the teaching of the Gita has never been harnessed to action or the Upanishads to love of the people. There has been no phenomenon of transmutation of personality by a higher Being’s personal touch on any large scale, as in Sikh history. The Upanishads are examples of mental splendour, unique and truly glorious. But without Buddhism and now without Sikhism in India, and without the modern spirit of the West, which lives and works and attains to knowledge by the experimental method, which is, as I term it, ‘physics of spirituality’, the Upanishads and Bhagavat Gita could never have been so interpreted. On the other hand, from my close and devoted study of the Guru’s hymns, I assert that many revolutionary tendencies are found in the Sikh thought, song and life. No texts need be turned upside down for it. It was atrocious not to have seen this, and to have ignored Sikh history, from the main features of the hostility of the racial environment in which Sikhism took its birth. The Sikh believes in one great culture of man which is yet to come. There is more future and past in Sikhism while there is all the emphasis on the past in Hinduism.

REFERENCES:

1. H.S. Virk. Puran Singh’s Views on Sikh Gurus, Sikhs and the Khalsa Raj. Journal of Sikh Studies, Vol. XI, No. II, (1984), p. 116-125.

2. H.S. Virk. Professor Puran Singh: Scientist, Poet and Philosopher. Published by Tarlochan Publishers, Chandigarh, 2008.

   HS Virk 

SAS NAGAR (MOHALI)

 

DR HS VIRK

#360, Sector 71, SAS Nagar (Mohali)-160071

Web:http://drhsvirk.weebly.com






 
 

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 5:33 PM Rawel Singh <brg...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

>>> 

The quack must remain the eternal quack.

Rawel Singh says:

" The Sikh concept of guru is not the person but teachings of the guru."

Mr Gulati must stop silly frivolous words. 

For the Sikh, word of the guru authenticated by the guru himself is the guru. Period. 

There will be no reply to the frivolous.

Rawel Singh

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[HARDEV SINGH Virk]

Dalvir Pannu: U are doing a GREAT SERVICE to SIKHI.

DS GULATI & DS CHAHAL are the only two intellectuals who will APPRECIATE ur work on Sikh History.

HS Virk

DR HS VIRK

#360, Sector 71, SAS Nagar (Mohali)-160071

Web:http://drhsvirk.weebly.com






 
 

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 6:12 AM The Sikh Heritage: Beyond Borders <pann...@pannudental.com> wrote:

Dear All, Sat Sri Akal. Thank you so much for the wonderful discussions. To give a current condition perspective of Prithi Chand's residence in Hehar, I recently did this detailed video session. I need your input on this video discussion, especially how I tried to handle Mina's sensitive topic in my book. This video is lengthy (about 90 minutes), so please watch it only when having some free time at your hand. I need your evaluation of my work so that I can learn from your vast experiences, which is easily in couple hundred years if we combine the amazing knowledge of all of you in this google group. And if anyone from this group is interested to join me in the next video session webinar, please let me know, it shall be an honor. I am attaching the index of my book, all that you have to do is select a chapter that interests you, and I shall then coordinate with you over the phone to explain the format of the online discussion.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEJ5y479mhA

--

Sincerely,

Dalvir Pannu D.D.S.

http://pannudental.com

[The Sikh Heritage: Beyond Borders]

Dear All, Sat Sri Akal. Thank you so much for the wonderful discussions. To give a current condition perspective of Prithi Chand's residence in Hehar, I recently did this detailed video session. I need your input on this video discussion, especially how I tried to handle Mina's sensitive topic in my book. This video is lengthy (about 90 minutes), so please watch it only when having some free time at your hand. I need your evaluation of my work so that I can learn from your vast experiences, which is easily in couple hundred years if we combine the amazing knowledge of all of you in this google group. And if anyone from this group is interested to join me in the next video session webinar, please let me know, it shall be an honor. I am attaching the index of my book, all that you have to do is select a chapter that interests you, and I shall then coordinate with you over the phone to explain the format of the online discussion.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEJ5y479mhA

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 5:26 PM kirpal singh <kirpal...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Avtar Dhaliwal]

4. By allowing average humans and a committee to decide whether Sikhs should do Parikrama, whether they can be Sanatani or Khalsa, whether they can be excommunicated or included; it is autocratic and not spiritual. 

DR HS VIRK

#360, Sector 71, SAS Nagar (Mohali)-160071

Web:http://drhsvirk.weebly.com






 
 

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 5:33 PM Rawel Singh <brg...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

>>> 

The quack must remain the eternal quack.

Rawel Singh says:

" The Sikh concept of guru is not the person but teachings of the guru."

Mr Gulati must stop silly frivolous words. 

For the Sikh, word of the guru authenticated by the guru himself is the guru. Period. 

There will be no reply to the frivolous.

Rawel Singh

[Avtar Matharu]

Respectful Davinder Jee.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fathe.

Gurbani is Love, to share Love, selfishness is a desire not Gurbani.

Sent from my iPad

On 16 May 2020, at 08:27, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Gurbani reasoned responses? They are Tat Khalsa driven responses.

Is this Gurbani or not?

1. There is only one reality.

2. It is both immanent and transcendent.

3. This one reality is self conscious and possessed of will.

(When it wills it creates - nothing works outside its hukam)

Go ahead, tell me it is not Gurbani.

The Tat Khalsa has Islamised you.

One section of humanity you find hateful.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:00 PM gurmukh singh sewau...@yahoo.co.uk [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Try the link again Dr Virk ji!

It is the right video - at least the one I have just clicked on and watched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHqHvXs27s

Thank you Dr Tarlochan Singh ji - excellent.

These are the sort of Gurbani-reasoned responses we need.

Gurmukh Singh UK

On Saturday, 16 May 2020, 07:01:22 BST, HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsi...@gmail.com [learning-zone] <learning-zone@yahoogroups..com> wrote:

 

Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa...

H'S Virk 

On Sat, 16 May 2020, 10:56 a.m. Tarlochan S. Nahal, <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Rucha,

If you are trying to quote Gurbani. This is NOT Gurbani; this is a misquote:

>Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

Please watch this short video by a Singh. It will open your eyes and will be a good primer for you in Sikhi, especially about Ram.

SGGS mein Varnit Ram ka Arth Dashrath ka beta nahi hai....

SGGS mein Varnit Ram ka Arth Dashrath ka beta nahi hai... SGGS mein Varnit Ram ka Arth Dashrath ka beta nahi hai.. Wo hai har Zare mein hazir wo satta, wo chetnta, wo par...

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 09:24:49 PM PDT, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dr Virk Sahib,

My messages are in response to Mr. Gulati, Richa Gautam and Mr. Koul. They seem to take turns  in spearheading the misinformation campaign against Sikhi!  Khalsa Panth will not take any of this crap from anyone. They cannot just get away with this kind of stuff. So my humble advice to them is to stop wasting their time and mind their own business. Sikh know better about Sikhi than anyone else. We have Sri Guru Granth Sahib as our perpetual spiritual guide which totally rejects Bipar religious hypocrisy.

 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 08:56:26 PM PDT, Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

If we cannot see that Ram, that attribute in a rat, cat, cow, monkey, snake, elephant and a tree, then how can we see it in a Bipar( Brahmin) or anyone.

If there are texts in the Gurbani that are unquotable  here then I question that message and its source. A Gurus love is all encompassing and will never misguide disciples to hate, exclude or disown.

Beyond hate is love, beyond words is silence and beyond all beings is the light within. 

✌️ 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2020, at 8:07 PM, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:



The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "visheshan" or attributives for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it means.

It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that. Sikhs know much better about their religious practices and follow them more closely than you.

One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but those won't make you happy!

Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him.. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness.. 

We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power of God.

Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured.. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty. It is beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to describe it.

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[Jaidev Singh ANAND]

ਮੰਦਾ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਆਖੀਐ ਪੜਿ ਅਖਰੁ ਏਹੋ ਬੁਝੀਐ ॥ मंदा किसै न आखीऐ पड़ि अखरु एहो बुझीऐ ॥ Manḏā kisai na ākẖī▫ai paṛ akẖar eho bujẖī▫ai. Do not call anyone bad; read these words, and understand.

ਮੂਰਖੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਲੁਝੀਐ ॥੧੯॥ मूरखै नालि न लुझीऐ ॥१९॥ Mūrkẖai nāl na lujẖī▫ai. ||19|| Don't argue with fools. ||19||

Dear Gurmukh Singh jee.

Sardar Gulati has not put gun to any body's head to respond to his missives. Either, we the respondents are enjoying it or being too naive and are being manipulated to  respond.

It looks he is having all the fun , maybe by playing Devil's advocate.

Jaidev Singh Anand

USA

 

Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa....

H'S Virk 

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[Rabinder Koul]

Mr. Trilochan Singh, 

Please show me one post against Sikhi, except the accusation of Plagiarism, in response to poison sprouting post by one later against my community and Hindus in general. So don’t manufacture lies.

Ravindra Koul

अस्मद्रूपसमाविष्ठ: स्वात्मनात्मानिवारणे 

शिव: करोतु निजया नम: शक्त्या ततात्मने 

[savarkar vinayak]

My all Dear Friends in this Group
NAMASTE and SSA

First, one must understand that Sikhs are Hindus, part of the same Sanatan belief coming down the anicent times. Do you not know that Guru Teghbahadurji gave his life for the Hindus and so did Great Guru Govind Singh ji and not to mention that his For sons fought and laid their lives. So did Banda Singh Bahadur. Sikhism is a panth just like Budhiist, Jains, Shivas, Arya Samajis and all those have roots in Bharat. That is why it is addressed as SIKH PANTH.

Please find attached article, many questions that you have querried may find some solace here.

Pranam

On Saturday, 16 May 2020, 14:04:36 BST, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <thebe...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Tarlochan Nahal had asked "show me where it is written in Hindu scriptures what is written in Gurbani."

He was shown.

He now returns to belief and Brahmin bashing.

How unreasonable can one get?

He refuses to see.

Is this Gurbani Nahal ji?

1. There is only one reality.

2. It is both immanent and transcendent.

3. This one reality is self conscious and possessed of will.

Just refute it with your reasons.

For this also is written in Hindu shastras.

>>> Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him.It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness. <<<

What does waheguru mean then? Who is Guru of Guru?

What is described in the shastras if not the nature of God and his greatness?

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[DevinderSingh Gulati]

Richa has already replied to Hardev. I wish to take up a few points.

>>> Sikhs tend to deny any relationship with Hindu society. The Sikh may deny him or not, the Hindu has already denied the Sikh. <<<

It is poor scholarship that touts someones opinion without substantiation.

>>> For the Hindus, the way to survival and freedom is the Guru’s way. Unless they accept Guru Granth as their new Gita, the old scriptures and the stories from Ramayana and Mahabharata can no longer inspire new life into the mass of people whose backbone has been crushed by systematic metaphysical and theological burdens.

The Hindus in the Punjab have much to answer for. They find more in Bhagavat Gita and the old Vedas than in Guru Granth. They relate themselves to the bards of Vedas more than the Gurus.  <<<

Enters here the supramist view of the Tat Khalsa that is the bane of Sikhi today. It is giving rise to the quacks, slacks and bubbles. Everyday Gurbux Kahlon floats a new bubble that inevitably busts. It is what produces the intemperance of Tarlochan Nahal, Avtar Dhaliwal and SP Singh in an onset of unreason. They keep hammering on uniqueness but flinch from giving a straight answer, what in its philosophy is unique. Again and again I have asked the question is this not Sikhi, how is it unique:

1. There is only one reality.

2. It is both immanent and transcendent.

3. This one reality is self conscious and possessed of will.

[DevinderSingh Gulati]

Tarlochan Nahal had asked "show me where it is written in Hindu scriptures what is written in Gurbani."

He was shown.

He now returns to belief and Brahmin bashing.

How unreasonable can one get?

He refuses to see.

Is this Gurbani Nahal ji?

1. There is only one reality.

2. It is both immanent and transcendent.

3. This one reality is self conscious and possessed of will.

Just refute it with your reasons.

For this also is written in Hindu shastras.

>>>  Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness. <<<

What does waheguru mean then? Who is Guru of Guru?

What is described in the shastras if not the nature of God and his greatness?

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[Avtar Dhaliwal]

Anand Ji, 

 Your observation about Gulati is not in line with the rest of the group. He has no gun to anybody's head, rather he has insulted everybody talking about Sikhi.

None of the Sikh contributors have said to wallow in mud etc. to him.

Calling him a moorakh (idiot)  is all right as quoted in your missive. I do not think we have time to read his maligned missives.

I will recommend GLZ to get rid of him. Let him rot in his ancient philosophy of Superstitions and rituals. 

We enjoy the discussion on Gurbani.

Avtar Singh Dhaliwaal

USA

Dr Virk Sahib,

My messages are in response to Mr. Gulati, Richa Gautam and Mr. Koul. They seem to take turns  in spearheading the misinformation campaign against Sikhi!  Khalsa Panth will not take any of this crap from anyone. They cannot just get away with this kind of stuff. So my humble advice to them is to stop wasting their time and mind their own business.. Sikh know better about Sikhi than anyone else. We have Sri Guru Granth Sahib as our perpetual spiritual guide which totally rejects Bipar religious hypocrisy.

 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

But I am afraid you are merely interested in making superficial noises.. If you have the thirst for knowledge read the e-book.

You ill then discover that Sikhism has a founder and vishistadvaita has a founder. Both are sampradayas of the eternal dharma.

Both are identical. The practices of both are different; but they remain philosophically identical. Do not drag practices into this.

You have already embraced some practices that are reprehensible to you as Rawel Singh has pointed out.

Regarding Persian origin of the ved, Richa has already replied to you.

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:45 PM 'Tarlochan S. Nahal' tnah...@yahoo.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mr. Gulati,

Can you quote any line of Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib that you think is found in any of the Hindu scriptures? As Sardar S.P. Singh has mentioned, none of the Bhagats subscribed to any of the Vedanta philosophies. In fact, they were as rebellious to such thoughts as Guru Nanak Dev. They were all mistreted by the Brahmins. Bhagat Kabir and Nam Dev were physically assaulted for their beliefs. What makes you think Bhagats Ravidas, Kabir, Nam Dev, Trilochan, Dhanna, etc., were the followers of Vedanta philosophy?  All the Hindu "isms" failed to produce any courage or heroism among the Hindus where they could come face to face with reality and deal with it. They were courageous until they met the foreign invaders. Whatever courage they had was subverted by Buddhism and Jainism over 2000 years ago whom you have almost gobbled up like a boa constrictor and claim as yours! You know in your heart that if there was No Khalsa, Hinduism would have been wiped out of India just like Buddhism. 

Gurus chose the Bani of those who were downtrodden, but had a real spiritual message to convey. This is the reason Sikhs do not want to touch anything related to Vedanta with 10-foot pole.. The Gurus certainly made references to some Hindu concepts in explaining their thoughts, but never promoted those concepts. For your information the Gurus never condemned Vedas. In fact, they mention them with respect. The emphasis in Guru Granth Sahib is on Naam Simran, good thinking and good deeds. 

According to the top Hindu philosophers and former President of India, Dr. Radhakrishanan, Hinduism is not a religion; it is a way of living.

I would be grateful to you if you could answer these questions:

1. Where did the Vedanta philosophy come from? 

2. Who started Hinduism and can your name any founder? 

3. What were Hindus before there was Hinduism. What did they believe in?

The Gurus certainly used the prevalent vocabulary when when conveying their message and even used some names of Hindu gods only as "attributives" of God, this does not mean they somehow endorse them or the Hindu philosophy. I think that is the part that you have failed to understand.. 

For your information Vedas and Vedic Sanskrit used Persian vocabulary and religious concepts of Avesta and Zoroastrianism. This is not a criticism of Vedas by any stretch of the imagination. What I am saying is that vocabulary and culture are all part of the regional heritage. You need to acknowledge that Sankrit did not originate in India and it came from the Persian region even though Vedas were composed in Punjab.

Please read Asa Ki Var and see what Guru Nanak Dev says about the practices that you are trying to defend and shove down the throats of the Sikhs. 

 

Regards,

 

 

Dr. Tarlochan Singh

 

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 10:18:05 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersingh.gulati2@gmail..com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Sanatan Dharam has six darshanas. One of them is called vedanta darshana.

The highest in vedanta is the nirgun Brahaman.

So how can you claim Nanak's philosophy is very far from sanatan dharam.

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:34 AM S.P. Singh <sp....@gmail.com> wrote:

Gur Fateh 

   Guru Nanak adopted Nirgun philosophy which is far away from Sankaran Dharam . We can say near the Vedas.

    Sanatan way of life discarded people like Ravidas Kabir Namdev etc .

          

                          SPSINGH ex VC

On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 4:30 AM, Rawel Singh brgrsa@yahoo..co.in [learning-zone] <learni...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hello,

If Guru Nanak was here today he would be disappointed that his Sikhs have forgotten his teachings. They have gone back to chantings and symbolisation which do not purify the mind to make one a better person. He taught obedience to Hukam/Divine will/natural laws to lead a fruitful life.

Rawel Singh

--

S.P. Singh Dr.

Ex-Vice Chancellor, Guru Nanak Dev University

49, GF, Rajguru Nagar, Ludhiana

(Mobile): +91 98142 25278

 

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Please promote the learning of Gurbani, Gurmat and Sikh History amongst your near and dear ones by asking them to join the Gurmat Learning Zone (GLZ). To join GLZ or recommend someone's name, send an email to learning-...@yahoogroups.com

GLZ posts may be quoted for comment and to promote discussion. However, no member of GLZ shall use GLZ posts for the purpose of insulting or discrediting fellow GLZ members, either on GLZ, or through any other forum or publication.

Feedback and suggestions may be sent to our Editorial Advisory Board at learning...@yahoogroups.com 

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[Richa Gautam]

Hardevsinghji,

Hinduism has not one book but a library of mindblowing collection of books and sutras. The most philosophical spiritual texts that have inspired people over generations (whether the European Renaissance philosophers and poets like Voltaire, Yeats et al or the Transcendentalists like Thoreau et al or the scientists or Hollywood now, are texts like the Ashtavakra Gita, Bhagavad Gita, Shiva Sutra, Bhakti Sutra, Yoga sutras, Yoga Vashishta, and the entire range of Upanishads and Shanti mantras within it. 

 

I absolutely agree with Mr.Joy Sen who says that the Living Gurus should interpret it for us laymen, to understand the spiritual message behind it all. I have heard Gurus like Osho and Sri Sri explain many of these texts even Gurbani and that is my usual mode of learning at the feet of the Gurus who are enlightened and their intelligence fully blossomed. I think we all have the compass and radar to recognize that absolute truth, especially if we are seekers

I have given an explanation of Indra as the God of the world and who is not the God of spiritual seeking. And his exploits are explained in that context as someone who is about worldly pleasures and enjoyment and who feels threatened when any ordinary mortal(Rishi) tries to escape the worldly ways through sadhana. The Vedic pantheon and their stories are uncannily close to the pantheons of Greek and Roman Gods and it might require a thesis and contextualization to understand the exact meaning of everything written in the Vedas. We view with scandal the stories and sexual exploits of Indra as you described but that is because we transfer our morals and values to that time, and don't expect to see it in a text like Vedas. However, as Lord of the world, Indra 's stories are full of such indulgences. Vedas are largely stories of the world and practical information for various sciences of that time. But the Upanishads, the Sutras, and the Gitas are timeless knowledge that is not of the world but of unparalleled spiritual and philosophical depth.

About Soma, the only piece I can share (based on my limited knowledge) is that all ancient cultures have a certain type of herbal intoxicant which was used for ceremonies and prayers and spiritual transcendence. The Amazonians and the Native Americans have it as well even to this day. It has healing qualities and cures psychosomatic illnesses. Even to this day, I have seen these and also encountered Native American herbs that can completely cure diseases like Thyroid, Cholesterol, and blood pressure in as little as 2-3 months. What was Soma is hard to say, but such knowledge can be found in the Native Amazonian cultures that are unbroken in continuity and alive today.

Richa Gautam

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 7:59 AM HARDEV SINGH Virk <hardevsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

The SCHOLAR of Rig Veda has given an alternative EXPLANATION OF SOMA but FAILED to give Explanation of sexual exploits of Indra reported in Rig Veda?

Even the name of ASURA Woman is given in THE HYMNs.

HS Virk

DR HS VIRK

#360, Sector 71, SAS Nagar (Mohali)-160071

Web:http://drhsvirk.weebly.com






 
 

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 1:31 PM DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <TheBe...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>>> Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA.

RIG VEDA Hymns made me hung my head IN SHAME WHEN I READ INDRA was a hard drinker of SOMA   <<<

The folly of follies... reading a literal translation of the veda. Read a knowledgeable commentary.

A host of Vedic deities like Indra, Vayu, and the Ashwins are closely associated to Soma

Soma and these deities represent psychological experiences of the Rishis as they worked in the Truth-consciousness 

The Soma wine is the Vedic symbol for Ananda - the divine delight of being, inflowing upon the mind from the supramental consciousness through the Ritam or Truth. While an ordinary mind derives happiness from sense-objects and sense-experiences, a mind turned towards the Truth – the Truth of one’s own being, one’s own immortality – such a mind experiences the permanent and limitless bliss or Ananda. This is what the Soma wine represents.

In these mantras, it is evident that Soma is entirely associated with the mind – the word dhi means the intellect or thoughts. Soma advances because of the subtle thought-powers of a pure mind – represented by Indra.

Indra is the Vedic symbol for the Illumined Mind – a mind which is turned towards the Light of Truth. He is presented as the lord of Swar – the third Vedic vyāhrti (bhu, bhuvah, swah). The word swar is akin to sūra and sūrya i.e. sun and it means luminous. Indra represents the unobscured or pure mind which is thus fit for receiving the divine delight of Soma.

Along with Vayu, Indra is seen as the constant partaker of the Soma wine in the Veda. Vayu is associated to the Prana or Life-Energy. The Illumined Mind is accompanied by the regulated Prana represented by Vayu. They work together to awaken human mentality to the inflow of Ananda. 

“They receive them into the full plenitude of the mental and nervous energies, cetathāḥ sutānāṃ vājinīvasū. The Ananda thus received constitutes a new action preparing immortal consciousness in the mortal and Indra and Vayu are bidden to come and swiftly perfect these new workings by the participation of the thought, ā yātaṃ upa niṣkrtaṃ makṣū dhiyā.”

This is how one is to understand the symbols and imagery associated with the Soma wine in the Veda.

http://thesecretoftheveda.blogspot.com/2017/03/soma-divine-delight.html

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:38 PM HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsi...@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <TheBe...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Dear Friends

I have read ALL POSTS but MY FOCUS will be on just  3-4:

1. Dr Kirpal Singh writes: <It is sad that some prominent members of the Sikh Community of the like of Prof.. HS' Virk have shown solidarity with his misguided scholarship.>

I know the ARROW is pointed towards DS GULATI. But let me tell U, he provides me LINKS to all my Queries. I read Daya Nand's SATYAPARKASH sent by Gulati.

Now, I am reading RIG VEDA and RAMANUJA's Philosophy. Tell me is there ANY HARM in getting Knowledge of other religions? It will HELP in juxtaposing SIKH THOUGHT vis a vis Hindu Philosophy. DAYA NAND was DEFEATED by Gyani DIT SINGH in Lahore; McLeod by team of IOSS Chandigarh; DS Gulati is still in the line of firing! Try to engage him?

I feel Rawel Singh and others have failed to satisfy him and answer his query. DS Chahal & Prof. Puran Singh are the only GIANTS who reject Vedanta Influence on Gurbani.

2. RICHA GAUTAM: In fact, this debate hinges on TWO YOUNG LADIES: Gurbax Kahlon and Richa Gautam.

Richa is an intelligent debater WHO GOES AT TANGENT in her posts. She was calling Muslims Brute; I sent her 2 Papers to SHOW THE OTHER SIDE of ISLAM.

For ALL THE ILLS OF HINDU SOCIETY, she FINDS A SCAPEGOAT in BRITISH. She blames British for weakening the RAJPUTS through Opium. What an alibi?

She must read Indian History how RAJPUTS WERE DRIVEN INTO SUB-SERVIENCE & SLAVERY by THE MONGOL Rulers of India by marrying their daughters! 

I wish I could join her INTER-FAITH Groups. In India, I participate in both Inter-faith & Science-Religion Debate, when possible.

3. Ravindra KOUL: The GREAT PHYSICIST caught me on the wrong foot. But I quoted from Dharma Sutra without assigning it to Rig Veda.

He has OBJECTION to my calling BUDDHA PARKASH as THE BEST HISTORIAN OF ANCIENT PUNJAB. 

My fresh reading of his book reveals many new FACTS which go against presumptions of RICHA & KOUL:

(i). Page 64: According to RN Dandekar (The great Hindu historian): Rig Veda hymns were first composed in Bulkh area (beyond borders of Afganistan, bordering present Persia). Its FINAL & Revised version appeared in Sapatsindhu, the old Punjab of 7 rivers. 

(ii) YASKA writes: Rig Veda has 4 different Schools of Interpretations: Naturalists ( Nirukta); Historians; Ritualists; and Mythologists. No one knows WHICH IS Correct?

(iii). Since it has its origins in BULKH (Persia), it has COMMON TERMS with Avestha and PERSIAN Traditions. For example, for Serpent god, Rigveda uses Ahi; Persians use Aji and identical to Ahi in Avestha. 

(iv) Rigveda has INDRA God; Persians ANDRA; Avestha Vrthragna, the term used frequently in Rig Veda also..

(v) Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA.

RIG VEDA Hymns made me hung my head IN SHAME WHEN I READ INDRA was a hard drinker of SOMA; He was a Rapist who enjoyed sex with unmarried girls and Asura woman, whose name appears in Rig Veda. He used a Monkey drug (also a druggist) to increase his sexual prowess! Indra's exploits find a mention in Guru Granth sahib also.  

4. John Ciboti: <My only question For you (which May have been answered I haven’t been able to read all the responses): the three points you referenced sound similar to the teachings of many religions, so what makes Sikhism the target, as opposed to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.?

 Welcome Ciboti; Only Gulati can Answer ur query. I understand THERE IS A COMMON STRAIN ABOUT REALITY in all religions.

HS Virk

PS: I will post Copies of BUDDHA PARKASH's book by e-mail to all those interested. It is on  Amazon.com. 

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 12:21 PM Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

and I am not quoting Gurbani but I am inspired by it. Hardev Singhji you asked me earlier about an English quote, that you liked and that was mine as well.

I am definitely interested in watching the video, learning, and debating and sharing-if there are forums that share interfaith understanding, the world would be a better place for it. Mainly because there would be an understanding of each other's point of view. Unfortunately, distrust is the starting point at most forums and especially in the East, there seems to be limited interaction between faiths.

There is a Sanatan interfaith forum where I live and for some reason, I did not see the Sikhs join in though Buddhists Jains and Hindus were adequately represented. At that time, I did not think to inquire why? But maybe there is a long bridge to build and cross before that can happen.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 12:01 AM HARDEV SINGH Virk <hardevsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa.

H'S Virk 

On Sat, 16 May 2020, 10:56 a.m. Tarlochan S. Nahal, <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Rucha,

If you are trying to quote Gurbani. This is NOT Gurbani; this is a misquote:

>Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya..

Please watch this short video by a Singh. It will open your eyes and will be a good primer for you in Sikhi, especially about Ram.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHqHvXs27s

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 09:24:49 PM PDT, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dr Virk Sahib,

My messages are in response to Mr. Gulati, Richa Gautam and Mr. Koul. They seem to take turns  in spearheading the misinformation campaign against Sikhi!  Khalsa Panth will not take any of this crap from anyone. They cannot just get away with this kind of stuff. So my humble advice to them is to stop wasting their time and mind their own business. Sikh know better about Sikhi than anyone else. We have Sri Guru Granth Sahib as our perpetual spiritual guide which totally rejects Bipar religious hypocrisy.

 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 08:56:26 PM PDT, Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

If we cannot see that Ram, that attribute in a rat, cat, cow, monkey, snake, elephant and a tree, then how can we see it in a Bipar( Brahmin) or anyone.

If there are texts in the Gurbani that are unquotable  here then I question that message and its source. A Gurus love is all encompassing and will never misguide disciples to hate, exclude or disown.

Beyond hate is love, beyond words is silence and beyond all beings is the light within. 

✌️ 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2020, at 8:07 PM, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:



The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "visheshan" or attributives for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it means.

It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that. Sikhs know much better about their religious practices and follow them more closely than you.

One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but those won't make you happy!

Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness. 

We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power of God.

Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty. It is beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to describe it.

I encourage you to continue your religious practice such as cow worship, idol worship, etc. because you are supposed to do it and we do not want to interfere in your religious affairs. You may also continue to worship rats, cats, bats, cows, monkies, donkies, birds, etc., but Bipars should leave the Sikh alone and mind their own business. We have a better idea of Guru's teachings than anyone else. Your caste system, in which you have tried to trap the entire world, is now exposed.

 

Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs.. I have nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs either. 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

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[Babu Gandhi]

Indra is a portfolio anybody can attain as a result of Punya.Its for ruling the heaven and elements of Mother Earth.Person uses the status like a bank balance and when degrades to point B from existing point A looses the throne /kingdom.

Rituals are like IAS ,IPS once anyone passes or performs they get mundane positions in Brahma’s dream.

Gurus are embodiment including our ten Gurus.They are the form of TRUTH,COMPASSION,PREM, COURAGE——.

They wake you up from this dream and transcend.

Babubhai 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 17, 2020, at 6:59 AM, HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsi...@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <TheBe...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  

(iv) Rigveda has INDRA God; Persians ANDRA; Avestha Vrthragna, the term used frequently in Rig Veda also...

(v) Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA.

RIG VEDA Hymns made me hung my head IN SHAME WHEN I READ INDRA was a hard drinker of SOMA; He was a Rapist who enjoyed sex with unmarried girls and Asura woman, whose name appears in Rig Veda. He used a Monkey drug (also a druggist) to increase his sexual prowess! Indra's exploits find a mention in Guru Granth sahib also.  

4. John Ciboti: <My only question For you (which May have been answered I haven’t been able to read all the responses): the three points you referenced sound similar to the teachings of many religions, so what makes Sikhism the target, as opposed to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.?

 Welcome Ciboti; Only Gulati can Answer ur query. I understand THERE IS A COMMON STRAIN ABOUT REALITY in all religions.

HS Virk

PS: I will post Copies of BUDDHA PARKASH's book by e-mail to all those interested. It is on  Amazon.com. 

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 12:21 PM Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

and I am not quoting Gurbani but I am inspired by it. Hardev Singhji you asked me earlier about an English quote, that you liked and that was mine as well.

I am definitely interested in watching the video, learning, and debating and sharing-if there are forums that share interfaith understanding, the world would be a better place for it. Mainly because there would be an understanding of each other's point of view. Unfortunately, distrust is the starting point at most forums and especially in the East, there seems to be limited interaction between faiths.

There is a Sanatan interfaith forum where I live and for some reason, I did not see the Sikhs join in though Buddhists Jains and Hindus were adequately represented. At that time, I did not think to inquire why? But maybe there is a long bridge to build and cross before that can happen.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 12:01 AM HARDEV SINGH Virk <hardevsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa.

H'S Virk 

On Sat, 16 May 2020, 10:56 a.m. Tarlochan S. Nahal, <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Rucha,

If you are trying to quote Gurbani. This is NOT Gurbani; this is a misquote:

>Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya...

Please watch this short video by a Singh. It will open your eyes and will be a good primer for you in Sikhi, especially about Ram.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHqHvXs27s

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 09:24:49 PM PDT, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dr Virk Sahib,

My messages are in response to Mr. Gulati, Richa Gautam and Mr. Koul. They seem to take turns  in spearheading the misinformation campaign against Sikhi!  Khalsa Panth will not take any of this crap from anyone. They cannot just get away with this kind of stuff. So my humble advice to them is to stop wasting their time and mind their own business. Sikh know better about Sikhi than anyone else. We have Sri Guru Granth Sahib as our perpetual spiritual guide which totally rejects Bipar religious hypocrisy.

 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 08:56:26 PM PDT, Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

If we cannot see that Ram, that attribute in a rat, cat, cow, monkey, snake, elephant and a tree, then how can we see it in a Bipar( Brahmin) or anyone.

If there are texts in the Gurbani that are unquotable  here then I question that message and its source. A Gurus love is all encompassing and will never misguide disciples to hate, exclude or disown.

Beyond hate is love, beyond words is silence and beyond all beings is the light within. 

✌️ 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2020, at 8:07 PM, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:



The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "visheshan" or attributives for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it means.

It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that.. Sikhs know much better about their religious practices and follow them more closely than you.

One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but those won't make you happy!

Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness. 

We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power of God.

Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty. It is beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to describe it.

I encourage you to continue your religious practice such as cow worship, idol worship, etc. because you are supposed to do it and we do not want to interfere in your religious affairs. You may also continue to worship rats, cats, bats, cows, monkies, donkies, birds, etc., but Bipars should leave the Sikh alone and mind their own business.. We have a better idea of Guru's teachings than anyone else. Your caste system, in which you have tried to trap the entire world, is now exposed.

 

Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs.. I have nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs either.. 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

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[Richa Gautam]

@Dr Chahalji and Gurbuxji,

Firstly I want to say that both the explanation of Indra as explained by Gulatiji and mine, are acceptable to me because of the many layered complex nature of spiritual texts.i have seen western interpretations of for example Shiva sutra and then from a guru and the divergence is phenomenal. similarly SOMA can be both produced through our own inner body chemistry as well as via an artificial ingestion. Think for example Insulin. 

Dr Chahal’s example of Morphine hallucination is a fine example of how people start addiction to it or LSD. Steve Jobs who was a great meditator, also liked the use of LSD to take him to higher realms (not my personal view)

But the video I shared is not about Hinduism but MODERN RESEARCH on this and inclusive of the Vatican, Egyptian middle eastern, Buddhist and Hindu cultures in the background are pictures of the Illuminati which is from Christianity 

Also the 33 Masons, i Wonder how this pagan concept was digested in Christianity but is actually like Kundalini- because we have 33 vertebrae and the top is the pineal gland which when activated produces the adequate quantities of melatonin to drip like nectar as described in many texts , this leads to activation of third eye. 

I have. Personally seen kids trained in the art of intuition able to read with closed eyes - kids are non judgmental and can learn these skills , adults are too skeptical. 

I am keen to know if this concept of spiritual enlightenment  is taught in the Sikh texts /practices at all? 

Dr Chahal, I don’t think anyone is rewriting Vedas or the knowledge, I am not sure what your sources have been in the past, please share for our benefit 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 17, 2020, at 6:11 PM, Devinder SIngh Chahal- IUScanada <iusc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Madame Richa Gautam entirely ignored my missive. 

I was talking about the ancient drink SOMA in Hinduism and other drinks in other religions but not the today's SPIRITS produced in the world.

I understand that expert Hindu scholars are trying to re-write Vedas and Vedanta philosophies. 

You can ignore the use of SOMA for Hallucination by priestly class by introducing the pineal gland and the third eye to get the same Hallucination.

There is no such thing like third eye in human body. To call pineal gland as the third eye is only in Hinduism. The function of pineal glad is to produce melatonin hormone to induce sleep to feel good. 

No such Inner nectar or secretion or elixir are produced by the pineal gland.  

It is all in Vedas and Vedanta sciences. What they are trying to do is to create self-hallucination or  self-hypnosis where a person enters in different state which is considered as the fourth state.

Two year ago I entered into this hallucination stage when I was controlling my pain by introducing morphine through intravenous system. I used too much morphine than required. I entered into a different world altogether days and nights. After a few days I reported this condition to my doctor. He called the psychiatric and he discovered that morphine overdose has caused this condition (hallucination). Morphine was stopped immediately and it took three days for me to come back to normal consciousness.

Let us try to understand functions of human body medically and scientifically rather than to induce so-called inner nectar, a non-medical product,  which may lead to Schizophrenia.

Regards, 

Devinder Singh Chahal

iusanada.com

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 5:07 PM Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

@ DS Chahal 

A list of Fermented drinks should never forget the Vodka of the Russians and Scotch of the Scots. But jokes aside, I don’t agree that Soma is linked to any of these fermented  drink as Cannabis is slowly gaining a foothold again for it’s medicinal value Especially psychosomatic and neurological diseases like epilepsy and stroke.

But what Prof Sen calls as inner elixir is not limited to any one priestly class but anyone who has the ability and desire to meditate and evolve. Which is why we have sages like Valmiki or Sant Kabir who has nothing to do with high priesthood. 

This video below  will  clear that up because it talks about the release of Inner nectar or secretion or elixir from the pineal gland which is linked to the third eye chakra and enhances intuition and develops what may be called as superhuman abilities.

https://youtu.be/hzsHF9M8y58

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On May 17, 2020, at 2:43 PM, Devinder SIngh Chahal- IUScanada <iusc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Prof Joy Sen writes:

<<There is a direct reference in the Rig Veda, in 10.84 mandala which says, only the lesser mind, the material mind thinks Soma is an intoxicating plant; but the inner mind of the aspirant, who has got an access to the Neuro-physiological corridors of meditation and the further expansion of his vital and mental into the conduits of cosmic consciousness, knows Soma is the divine power of the Aditya, a inner elixir that only descends from the cosmic solar consciousness and is made accessible to the pure aspirant, who ascends by Agni (igneous) principle.>>

Prof Sen has done very good justification to declare SOMA  is the divine power of the Aditya, a inner elixir that only descends from the cosmic solar consciousness and is made accessible to the pure aspirant, who ascends by Agni (igneous) principle. Therefore, it was declared as a divine drink for Devtas (Priestly class) and others were not allowed since for them it was a SIN.

Let us see it from microbiological point of view. 

- SOMA is a fermented product from the natural bacteria and yeasts found in the juice of some hallucinating plants and herbs plus poppy and cannabis. It is an alcoholic and very strong hallucinating drink. The consumer becomes hallucinated and reach not only to the fourth stage but even beyond that stage. During Vedas period it was common drink for priestly class.

 - The other drink which is common with common Hindus is prepared from cannabis leaves and flowers is used by men and women on special occasions and also on Holidays, Holi days. 

- Nihang Singhs have picked up this drink from the Hindu brothers and openly prepare it in Gurdwara to drink to get hallucinated to attain fourth state.

- In ancient China a similar drink called SAKE is prepared by fermenting rice.

- In Russia similar drink called Kefir is prepared by fermenting goat milk or cow milk.

- Royal family of Arabia was fermenting grape juice to prepare wine.

So the priestly class in Christianity were fermenting grapes to prepare wine from grapes.

Only priestly class or Royal families were allowed to enjoy such drinks but for others drinking of such drinks is SIN.

IS THIS A GOD MADE RULE IN ALL EVERY RELIGIONS?

Regards, 

Devinder Singh Chahal

iuscanada.com

 

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:47 AM Prof. Joy Sen <joy...@arp.iitkgp.ac.in> wrote:

There is a direct reference in the Rig Veda, in 10.84 mandala which says, only the lesser mind, the material mind thinks Soma is an intoxicating plant; but the inner mind of the aspirant, who has got an access to the Neuro-physiological corridors of meditation and the further expansion of his vital and mental into the conduits of cosmic consciousness, knows Soma is the divine power of the Aditya, a inner elixir that only descends from the cosmic solar consciousness and is made accessible to the pure aspirant, who ascends by Agni (igneous) principle.
'Somena Aditya Balam', Rig Veda (10th mandala)
Thus the combined 'Agni-Soma' complementarity presents the psycho or Igneous-Somatic tradition of the Sages of ANGIRASA (the essence of Sadhana).
All Deva Loka aspirants who has become a Rishi, becomes a Sage of ANGIRASA.
In other words, he or she gets an ability to trans mutate their vital essence of the Anga (Soma or Wings or Anga of the corporeal part) to the Highest Rasa, the elixir of life.

In the older orders of the Rig Veda, Indra, Mitra, Varuna ...to Vishnu are the 12 cardinal circuitous names of the 12 Adityas, who are both the Devas, by the ascending order and Ashuras by the descending order. Dr. Hale has a huge compendium on these clarification of the term ASHURA under the earliest Vedic thought. The earliest Gathas of the Iranians and the Bhrigu Samhita portion of the Atharva Veda had a common origin.
Prof. Jatindramohan Chatterjee has a book on ' Hymns of Atharvan Zarathusthra', which is available on the net, and great scholars from Sri Aurobindo and Joseph Campbell have strong deliberations on these clarification.

So we have to be very very careful before making abrupt, partial or shallow comments,
Without delving and immersing into the entire entire psycho-somatic tradition of the Sages of ANGIRASAS.

This is the problem that is initiated by the huge gap between understanding that is driven by Sruti and meditative REALIZATION, as against the material understanding where one is merely looking as these mantras as physical or intellectual traditions only.
Great sciences like Noetic Sciences, Kirlian photography and BEM grids in the west have partially accessed 'The Secrets of the Sruitis'!
The maths that is taught at class 3 or 4, is fine and just a beginning..but a long way, to the kind of quantum of non-linear mathematics taught at the Masters or the Doctoral level. One is just a beginning. The other on the other side is matured, vast and huge to be comprehended.
The great Mathematicians who had reached that level know it...
Similarly, the Great Aspirants who had reached and become a Rishi, like Ramana Maharshi or Nanak or Shri Ramakrishna know the full truth!
Regards,

Joy Sen
IIT KHARAGPUR

> The Soma wine is the Vedic symbol for Ananda - *the divine delight of

> being, inflowing upon the mind from the supramental consciousness through
> the Ritam or Truth

> <https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=2814279540343542242#_ftn1>. *While

> an ordinary mind derives happiness from sense-objects and
> sense-experiences, a mind turned towards the Truth – the Truth of one’s own
> being, one’s own immortality – such a mind experiences the permanent and
> limitless bliss or Ananda. This is what the Soma wine represents.
>
> In these mantras, it is evident that Soma is entirely associated with the

> mind – the word *dhi* means the intellect or thoughts. Soma advances

> because of the subtle thought-powers of a pure mind – represented by Indra.
> Indra is the Vedic symbol for the Illumined Mind – a mind which is turned
> towards the Light of Truth. He is presented as the lord of Swar – the third

> Vedic vyāhrti (bhu, bhuvah, swah). The word *swar* is akin to *sūra* and
> *sūrya* i.e. sun and it means luminous. Indra represents the unobscured

> or pure mind which is thus fit for receiving the divine delight of Soma.
> Along with Vayu, Indra is seen as the constant partaker of the Soma wine
> in the Veda. Vayu is associated to the Prana or Life-Energy. The Illumined
> Mind is accompanied by the regulated Prana represented by Vayu. They work
> together to awaken human mentality to the inflow of Ananda.
>

> *“They receive them into the full plenitude of the mental and nervous

> energies, cetathāḥ sutānāṃ vājinīvasū. The Ananda thus received constitutes
> a new action preparing immortal consciousness in the mortal and Indra and
> Vayu are bidden to come and swiftly perfect these new workings by the

> participation of the thought, ā yātaṃ upa niṣkrtaṃ makṣū dhiyā.”*
>
> * This is how one is to understand the symbols and imagery associated with

> the Soma wine in the Veda.

> <https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=2814279540343542242#_ftn3>*
> *http://thesecretoftheveda.blogspot.com/2017/03/soma-divine-delight.html
> <https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=2814279540343542242#_ftn3>*

>> (v) Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA..

>>>>> The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "*visheshan*" or attributives

>>>>> for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never
>>>>> promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it
>>>>> means.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not
>>>>> doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka
>>>>> on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the

>>>>> shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that. Sikhs

>>>>> know much better about their religious practices and follow them more
>>>>> closely than you.
>>>>>
>>>>> One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak
>>>>> because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any
>>>>> stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the
>>>>> teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but
>>>>> those won't make you happy!
>>>>>
>>>>> Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before
>>>>> him. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious
>>>>> scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak
>>>>> Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His
>>>>> greatness.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many
>>>>> planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power
>>>>> of God.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the
>>>>> Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN
>>>>> THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty. It is
>>>>> beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to
>>>>> describe it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I encourage you to continue your religious practice such as cow
>>>>> worship, idol worship, etc. because you are supposed to do it and we do not
>>>>> want to interfere in your religious affairs. You may also continue to
>>>>> worship rats, cats, bats, cows, monkies, donkies, birds, etc., but

>>>>> Bipars should leave the Sikh alone and mind their own business. We have a

>>>>> better idea of Guru's teachings than anyone else. Your caste system, in
>>>>> which you have tried to trap the entire world, is now exposed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he
>>>>> is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs.. I have
>>>>> nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs
>>>>> either.
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tarlochan Singh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, May 15, 2020, 06:26:49 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati
>>>>> devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <

>>>>> sikh_news_discussion-noreply@yahoogroups...com

>>>>> <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not
>>>>> read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in
>>>>> ignorance.
>>>>> If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference
>>>>> between the upanishad and Gurbani.. The upanisshad gave rise to six
>>>>> darshanas.
>>>>> Each of these darshanas has a founder, even if Hinduism is santan.
>>>>> What Nanak discovered ere the eternal principles of the vedanta darshana.
>>>>> In fact one third of the vedanta darshana, because vedanta darshana is
>>>>> propounded in three different ways ( to keep it simple - actually in more
>>>>> than three ways.)
>>>>>
>>>>> So let me quote from the Isha upanishad. It is a short upanishad of
>>>>> only eighteen verses.
>>>>>  All this is for habitation1

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote1sym> by the

>>>>> Lord, whatsoever is individual universe of movement in the universal
>>>>> motion. By that renounced thou shouldst enjoy; lust not after any man’s
>>>>> possession.
>>>>> Do you recognize the Gurbani in this? It is verse 1.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doing verily2

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote2sym> works in

>>>>> this world one should wish to live a hundred years. Thus it is in thee and
>>>>> not otherwise than this; action cleaves not to a man. 3

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote3sym>

>>>>> Again do you recognise Gurbani in this? It is verse .
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>    1. But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all

>>>>>    existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught.  Again Gurbani.
>>>>>    It is verse six.

>>>>>    2. He in whom it is the Self-Being that has become all existences
>>>>>    that are Becomings7
>>>>>    <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote7sym> for

>>>>>    he has the perfect knowledge, how shall he be deluded, whence shall he have
>>>>>    grief who sees everywhere oneness? Verse 7. Is Gurbani different from this?

>>>>>    3. It is He that has gone abroad — That which is bright, bodiless,

>>>>>    without scar of imperfection, without sinews, pure, unpierced by evil. The
>>>>>    Seer, the Thinker,8

>>>>>    <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote8sym> the

>>>>>    One who becomes everywhere, the Self-existent has ordered objects perfectly
>>>>>    according to their nature from years sempiternal.  Do you recognize Gurbani
>>>>>    in verse eight?.
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>    1. He who knows That as both in one, the Knowledge and the

>>>>>    Ignorance, by the Ignorance crosses beyond death and by the Knowledge
>>>>>    enjoys Immortality. Again it is Gurbani.
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>    1. He who knows That as both in one, the Birth and the dissolution

>>>>>    of Birth, by the dissolution crosses beyond death and by the Birth enjoys
>>>>>    Immortality. Verse fourteen of upanishad.
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>    1. O Fosterer, O sole Seer, O Ordainer, O illumining Sun, O power

>>>>>    of the Father of creatures, marshal thy rays, draw together thy light; the
>>>>>    Lustre which is thy most blessed form of all, that in Thee I behold. The
>>>>>    Purusha there and there, He am I.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now this verse sixteen of the upanishad is interpreted by the advaita
>>>>> part of the vedanta darshana as "I am God". that is ho Bhai Satpal explains
>>>>> Gurbani.
>>>>> But Gurbani takes the vishistadvaita view of the vedanta darshana.
>>>>> That is hat I have been cautioning you about. That Sikhs should be vigilant
>>>>> about how Gurbani is presented.
>>>>>

>>>>>    1. The Breath of things11
>>>>>    <https://www.auro-ebooks..com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote11sym> is

>>>>>    an immortal Life, but of this body ashes are the end. OM! O Will,12

>>>>>    <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote12sym>

>>>>>    remember, that which was done remember! O Will, remember, that which was
>>>>>    done, remember. In this verse seventeen there is talk of the immortal soul
>>>>>    and mortal body. It is Gurbani.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now look at this footnote on verse one "all this is for the habitation
>>>>> of the Lord":

>>>>> There are three possible senses of *vasyam,* “to be clothed”, “to be

>>>>> Regarding Persian origin of the ved, Richa has already replied to you..

>>>>> Dr. Radhakrishanan, Hinduism is not a religion; it is a way of living..

>>>>>
>>>>> I would be grateful to you if you could answer these questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Where did the Vedanta philosophy come from?
>>>>> 2. Who started Hinduism and can your name any founder?
>>>>> 3. What were Hindus before there was Hinduism. What did they believe
>>>>> in?
>>>>>
>>>>> The Gurus certainly used the prevalent vocabulary when when conveying
>>>>> their message and even used some names of Hindu gods only as "attributives"
>>>>> of God, this does not mean they somehow endorse them or the Hindu
>>>>> philosophy. I think that is the part that you have failed to understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> For your information Vedas and Vedic Sanskrit used Persian vocabulary
>>>>> and religious concepts of Avesta and Zoroastrianism. This is not a
>>>>> criticism of Vedas by any stretch of the imagination. What I am saying is
>>>>> that vocabulary and culture are all part of the regional heritage. You need
>>>>> to acknowledge that Sankrit did not originate in India and it came from the
>>>>> Persian region even though Vedas were composed in Punjab.
>>>>>

>>>>> Please read *Asa Ki Var* and see what Guru Nanak Dev says about the

>>>>> practices that you are trying to defend and shove down the throats of the
>>>>> Sikhs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Tarlochan Singh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 10:18:05 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati

>>>>> devindersingh.gulati2@gmail...com <devindersi...@gmail.com>

>>>>> [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sanatan Dharam has six darshanas. One of them is called vedanta
>>>>> darshana.

>>>>> The highest in vedanta is the nirgun *Brahaman.*
>>>>> *So how can you claim Nanak's philosophy is very far from sanatan
>>>>> dharam.*

>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:34 AM S.P. Singh <sp....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Gur Fateh
>>>>>    Guru Nanak adopted Nirgun philosophy which is far away from
>>>>> Sankaran Dharam . We can say near the Vedas.
>>>>>     Sanatan way of life discarded people like Ravidas Kabir Namdev etc
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>                           SPSINGH ex VC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 4:30 AM, Rawel Singh brgrsa@yahoo...co.in
>>>>> <brg...@yahoo.co.in> [learning-zone] <learni...@yahoogroups.com>

>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> If Guru Nanak was here today he would be disappointed that his Sikhs
>>>>> have forgotten his teachings. They have gone back to chantings and
>>>>> symbolisation which do not purify the mind to make one a better person. He
>>>>> taught obedience to Hukam/Divine will/natural laws to lead a fruitful life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rawel Singh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> S.P. Singh Dr.
>>>>> Ex-Vice Chancellor, Guru Nanak Dev University
>>>>> 49, GF, Rajguru Nagar, Ludhiana
>>>>> (Mobile): +91 98142 25278
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>

--

Prof Devinder Singh Chahal, PhD

President
Institute for Understanding Sikhism
4418 Rue Martin Plouffe,
Laval, QC, Canada, H7W 5L9
450-681-1254

http://www.iuscanada.com
sik...@iuscanada.com
iusc...@gmail.com

--

Prof Devinder Singh Chahal, PhD

President
Institute for Understanding Sikhism
4418 Rue Martin Plouffe,
Laval, QC, Canada, H7W 5L9
450-681-1254

http://www.iuscanada.com
sik...@iuscanada.com
iusc...@gmail.com

[Devinder SIngh Chahal- IUScanada]

> >>> Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA.
> RIG VEDA Hymns made me hung my head IN SHAME WHEN I READ INDRA was a hard
> drinker of SOMA   <<<
>

>> Dear Friends
>> I have read ALL POSTS but MY FOCUS will be on just  3-4:
>> 1. Dr Kirpal Singh writes: <It is sad that some prominent members of the

>> Sikh Community of the like of Prof.. HS' Virk have shown solidarity with

>> used frequently in Rig Veda also..
>> (v) Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA..

>>>>> >Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya..

>>>>> The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "*visheshan*" or attributives

>>>>> is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs.. I have

>>>>> nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs
>>>>> either.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tarlochan Singh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, May 15, 2020, 06:26:49 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati
>>>>> devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <

>>>>> sikh_news_discussion-noreply@yahoogroups...com

>>>>> <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not
>>>>> read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in
>>>>> ignorance.
>>>>> If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference
>>>>> between the upanishad and Gurbani.. The upanisshad gave rise to six
>>>>> darshanas.
>>>>> Each of these darshanas has a founder, even if Hinduism is santan.
>>>>> What Nanak discovered ere the eternal principles of the vedanta darshana.
>>>>> In fact one third of the vedanta darshana, because vedanta darshana is
>>>>> propounded in three different ways ( to keep it simple - actually in more
>>>>> than three ways.)
>>>>>
>>>>> So let me quote from the Isha upanishad. It is a short upanishad of
>>>>> only eighteen verses.
>>>>>  All this is for habitation1

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote1sym> by the

>>>>> Lord, whatsoever is individual universe of movement in the universal
>>>>> motion. By that renounced thou shouldst enjoy; lust not after any man’s
>>>>> possession.
>>>>> Do you recognize the Gurbani in this? It is verse 1.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doing verily2

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote2sym> works in

>>>>> this world one should wish to live a hundred years. Thus it is in thee and
>>>>> not otherwise than this; action cleaves not to a man. 3

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote3sym>

>>>>> Again do you recognise Gurbani in this? It is verse .
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>    1. But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all

>>>>>    existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught.  Again Gurbani.
>>>>>    It is verse six.

>>>>>    2. He in whom it is the Self-Being that has become all existences
>>>>>    that are Becomings7
>>>>>    <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote7sym> for

>>>>>    he has the perfect knowledge, how shall he be deluded, whence shall he have
>>>>>    grief who sees everywhere oneness? Verse 7. Is Gurbani different from this?

>>>>>    3. It is He that has gone abroad — That which is bright, bodiless,

>>>>>    without scar of imperfection, without sinews, pure, unpierced by evil. The
>>>>>    Seer, the Thinker,8

>>>>>    <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote8sym> the

>>>>>    One who becomes everywhere, the Self-existent has ordered objects perfectly
>>>>>    according to their nature from years sempiternal.  Do you recognize Gurbani
>>>>>    in verse eight?.
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>    1. He who knows That as both in one, the Knowledge and the

>>>>>    Ignorance, by the Ignorance crosses beyond death and by the Knowledge
>>>>>    enjoys Immortality. Again it is Gurbani.
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>    1. He who knows That as both in one, the Birth and the dissolution

>>>>>    of Birth, by the dissolution crosses beyond death and by the Birth enjoys
>>>>>    Immortality. Verse fourteen of upanishad.
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>    1. O Fosterer, O sole Seer, O Ordainer, O illumining Sun, O power

>>>>>    of the Father of creatures, marshal thy rays, draw together thy light; the
>>>>>    Lustre which is thy most blessed form of all, that in Thee I behold. The
>>>>>    Purusha there and there, He am I.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now this verse sixteen of the upanishad is interpreted by the advaita
>>>>> part of the vedanta darshana as "I am God". that is ho Bhai Satpal explains
>>>>> Gurbani.
>>>>> But Gurbani takes the vishistadvaita view of the vedanta darshana.
>>>>> That is hat I have been cautioning you about. That Sikhs should be vigilant
>>>>> about how Gurbani is presented.
>>>>>

>>>>>    1. The Breath of things11

>>>>>    <https://www.auro-ebooks..com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote11sym> is

>>>>>    an immortal Life, but of this body ashes are the end. OM! O Will,12

>>>>>    <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote12sym>

>>>>>    remember, that which was done remember! O Will, remember, that which was
>>>>>    done, remember. In this verse seventeen there is talk of the immortal soul
>>>>>    and mortal body. It is Gurbani.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now look at this footnote on verse one "all this is for the habitation
>>>>> of the Lord":

>>>>> There are three possible senses of *vasyam,* “to be clothed”, “to be

>>>>> Regarding Persian origin of the ved, Richa has already replied to you..

>>>>> Dr. Radhakrishanan, Hinduism is not a religion; it is a way of living..

>>>>>
>>>>> I would be grateful to you if you could answer these questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Where did the Vedanta philosophy come from?
>>>>> 2. Who started Hinduism and can your name any founder?
>>>>> 3. What were Hindus before there was Hinduism. What did they believe
>>>>> in?
>>>>>
>>>>> The Gurus certainly used the prevalent vocabulary when when conveying
>>>>> their message and even used some names of Hindu gods only as "attributives"
>>>>> of God, this does not mean they somehow endorse them or the Hindu
>>>>> philosophy. I think that is the part that you have failed to understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> For your information Vedas and Vedic Sanskrit used Persian vocabulary
>>>>> and religious concepts of Avesta and Zoroastrianism. This is not a
>>>>> criticism of Vedas by any stretch of the imagination. What I am saying is
>>>>> that vocabulary and culture are all part of the regional heritage. You need
>>>>> to acknowledge that Sankrit did not originate in India and it came from the
>>>>> Persian region even though Vedas were composed in Punjab.
>>>>>

>>>>> Please read *Asa Ki Var* and see what Guru Nanak Dev says about the

>>>>> practices that you are trying to defend and shove down the throats of the
>>>>> Sikhs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Tarlochan Singh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 10:18:05 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati

>>>>> devindersingh.gulati2@gmail...com <devindersi...@gmail.com>

>>>>> [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sanatan Dharam has six darshanas. One of them is called vedanta
>>>>> darshana.

>>>>> The highest in vedanta is the nirgun *Brahaman.*
>>>>> *So how can you claim Nanak's philosophy is very far from sanatan
>>>>> dharam.*

>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:34 AM S.P. Singh <sp....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Gur Fateh
>>>>>    Guru Nanak adopted Nirgun philosophy which is far away from
>>>>> Sankaran Dharam . We can say near the Vedas.
>>>>>     Sanatan way of life discarded people like Ravidas Kabir Namdev etc
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>                           SPSINGH ex VC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 4:30 AM, Rawel Singh brgrsa@yahoo...co.in

>>>>> <brg...@yahoo.co.in> [learning-zone] <learni...@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> If Guru Nanak was here today he would be disappointed that his Sikhs
>>>>> have forgotten his teachings. They have gone back to chantings and
>>>>> symbolisation which do not purify the mind to make one a better person. He
>>>>> taught obedience to Hukam/Divine will/natural laws to lead a fruitful life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rawel Singh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> S.P. Singh Dr.
>>>>> Ex-Vice Chancellor, Guru Nanak Dev University
>>>>> 49, GF, Rajguru Nagar, Ludhiana
>>>>> (Mobile): +91 98142 25278
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>

[Prof. Joy Sen]

> >>> Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA.
> RIG VEDA Hymns made me hung my head IN SHAME WHEN I READ INDRA was a hard
> drinker of SOMA <<<
>

>> Dear Friends
>> I have read ALL POSTS but MY FOCUS will be on just 3-4:
>> 1. Dr Kirpal Singh writes: <It is sad that some prominent members of the

>> Sikh Community of the like of Prof.. HS' Virk have shown solidarity with

>> used frequently in Rig Veda also..
>> (v) Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA..

>>>>> >Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya..

>>>>> The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "*visheshan*" or attributives

>>>>> is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs.. I have

>>>>> nothing against him. What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs
>>>>> either.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tarlochan Singh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, May 15, 2020, 06:26:49 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati
>>>>> devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <

>>>>> sikh_news_discussion-noreply@yahoogroups...com

>>>>> <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not
>>>>> read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in
>>>>> ignorance.
>>>>> If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference
>>>>> between the upanishad and Gurbani.. The upanisshad gave rise to six
>>>>> darshanas.
>>>>> Each of these darshanas has a founder, even if Hinduism is santan.
>>>>> What Nanak discovered ere the eternal principles of the vedanta darshana.
>>>>> In fact one third of the vedanta darshana, because vedanta darshana is
>>>>> propounded in three different ways ( to keep it simple - actually in more
>>>>> than three ways.)
>>>>>
>>>>> So let me quote from the Isha upanishad. It is a short upanishad of
>>>>> only eighteen verses.
>>>>> All this is for habitation1

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote1sym> by the

>>>>> Lord, whatsoever is individual universe of movement in the universal
>>>>> motion. By that renounced thou shouldst enjoy; lust not after any man’s
>>>>> possession.
>>>>> Do you recognize the Gurbani in this? It is verse 1.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doing verily2

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote2sym> works in

>>>>> this world one should wish to live a hundred years. Thus it is in thee and
>>>>> not otherwise than this; action cleaves not to a man. 3

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote3sym>

>>>>> Again do you recognise Gurbani in this? It is verse .
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> 1. But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all

>>>>> existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught. Again Gurbani.
>>>>> It is verse six.

>>>>> 2. He in whom it is the Self-Being that has become all existences
>>>>> that are Becomings7
>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote7sym> for

>>>>> he has the perfect knowledge, how shall he be deluded, whence shall he have
>>>>> grief who sees everywhere oneness? Verse 7. Is Gurbani different from this?

>>>>> 3. It is He that has gone abroad — That which is bright, bodiless,

>>>>> without scar of imperfection, without sinews, pure, unpierced by evil. The
>>>>> Seer, the Thinker,8

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote8sym> the

>>>>> One who becomes everywhere, the Self-existent has ordered objects perfectly
>>>>> according to their nature from years sempiternal. Do you recognize Gurbani
>>>>> in verse eight?.
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> 1. He who knows That as both in one, the Knowledge and the

>>>>> Ignorance, by the Ignorance crosses beyond death and by the Knowledge
>>>>> enjoys Immortality. Again it is Gurbani.
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> 1. He who knows That as both in one, the Birth and the dissolution

>>>>> of Birth, by the dissolution crosses beyond death and by the Birth enjoys
>>>>> Immortality. Verse fourteen of upanishad.
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> 1. O Fosterer, O sole Seer, O Ordainer, O illumining Sun, O power

>>>>> of the Father of creatures, marshal thy rays, draw together thy light; the
>>>>> Lustre which is thy most blessed form of all, that in Thee I behold. The
>>>>> Purusha there and there, He am I.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now this verse sixteen of the upanishad is interpreted by the advaita
>>>>> part of the vedanta darshana as "I am God". that is ho Bhai Satpal explains
>>>>> Gurbani.
>>>>> But Gurbani takes the vishistadvaita view of the vedanta darshana.
>>>>> That is hat I have been cautioning you about. That Sikhs should be vigilant
>>>>> about how Gurbani is presented.
>>>>>

>>>>> 1. The Breath of things11

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks..com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote11sym> is

>>>>> an immortal Life, but of this body ashes are the end. OM! O Will,12

>>>>> <https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/#sdfootnote12sym>

>>>>> remember, that which was done remember! O Will, remember, that which was
>>>>> done, remember. In this verse seventeen there is talk of the immortal soul
>>>>> and mortal body. It is Gurbani.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now look at this footnote on verse one "all this is for the habitation
>>>>> of the Lord":

>>>>> There are three possible senses of *vasyam,* “to be clothed”, “to be

>>>>> Regarding Persian origin of the ved, Richa has already replied to you..

>>>>> Dr. Radhakrishanan, Hinduism is not a religion; it is a way of living..

>>>>>
>>>>> I would be grateful to you if you could answer these questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Where did the Vedanta philosophy come from?
>>>>> 2. Who started Hinduism and can your name any founder?
>>>>> 3. What were Hindus before there was Hinduism. What did they believe
>>>>> in?
>>>>>
>>>>> The Gurus certainly used the prevalent vocabulary when when conveying
>>>>> their message and even used some names of Hindu gods only as "attributives"
>>>>> of God, this does not mean they somehow endorse them or the Hindu
>>>>> philosophy. I think that is the part that you have failed to understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> For your information Vedas and Vedic Sanskrit used Persian vocabulary
>>>>> and religious concepts of Avesta and Zoroastrianism. This is not a
>>>>> criticism of Vedas by any stretch of the imagination. What I am saying is
>>>>> that vocabulary and culture are all part of the regional heritage. You need
>>>>> to acknowledge that Sankrit did not originate in India and it came from the
>>>>> Persian region even though Vedas were composed in Punjab.
>>>>>

>>>>> Please read *Asa Ki Var* and see what Guru Nanak Dev says about the

>>>>> practices that you are trying to defend and shove down the throats of the
>>>>> Sikhs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Tarlochan Singh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 10:18:05 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati

>>>>> devindersingh.gulati2@gmail...com <devindersi...@gmail.com>

>>>>> [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sanatan Dharam has six darshanas. One of them is called vedanta
>>>>> darshana.

>>>>> The highest in vedanta is the nirgun *Brahaman.*
>>>>> *So how can you claim Nanak's philosophy is very far from sanatan
>>>>> dharam.*

>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:34 AM S.P. Singh <sp....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Gur Fateh
>>>>> Guru Nanak adopted Nirgun philosophy which is far away from
>>>>> Sankaran Dharam . We can say near the Vedas.
>>>>> Sanatan way of life discarded people like Ravidas Kabir Namdev etc
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> SPSINGH ex VC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 4:30 AM, Rawel Singh brgrsa@yahoo...co.in

[gurbux kahlon]

Very illuminating discussion on Rig Veda and what Inder Devta’s exploits mean. A couple of thoughts on this: 

1. Are Gulati and Richa reading and explaining the same Rig Veda? I see their understanding of it poles apart? Or is it just Gulati’s spin  on things as always?

2. If all of this was part of Sikh religion and Guru Granth Sahib, what would Gulati and RSS be saying? I am fascinated by the very creative spin that is going on right now on India’s various religious beliefs. Just think about what is being glorified and what is being put down. 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 17, 2020, at 6:58 AM, HARDEV SINGH Virk <hardevsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

The SCHOLAR of Rig Veda has given an alternative EXPLANATION OF SOMA but FAILED to give Explanation of sexual exploits of Indra reported in Rig Veda?

Even the name of ASURA Woman is given in THE HYMNs.

HS Virk

DR HS VIRK

#360, Sector 71, SAS Nagar (Mohali)-160071

Web:http://drhsvirk.weebly.com






 
 

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 1:31 PM DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <TheBe...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>>> Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA.

RIG VEDA Hymns made me hung my head IN SHAME WHEN I READ INDRA was a hard drinker of SOMA   <<<

The folly of follies... reading a literal translation of the veda. Read a knowledgeable commentary.

A host of Vedic deities like Indra, Vayu, and the Ashwins are closely associated to Soma

Soma and these deities represent psychological experiences of the Rishis as they worked in the Truth-consciousness 

The Soma wine is the Vedic symbol for Ananda - the divine delight of being, inflowing upon the mind from the supramental consciousness through the Ritam or Truth. While an ordinary mind derives happiness from sense-objects and sense-experiences, a mind turned towards the Truth – the Truth of one’s own being, one’s own immortality – such a mind experiences the permanent and limitless bliss or Ananda. This is what the Soma wine represents.

In these mantras, it is evident that Soma is entirely associated with the mind – the word dhi means the intellect or thoughts. Soma advances because of the subtle thought-powers of a pure mind – represented by Indra.

Indra is the Vedic symbol for the Illumined Mind – a mind which is turned towards the Light of Truth. He is presented as the lord of Swar – the third Vedic vyāhrti (bhu, bhuvah, swah). The word swar is akin to sūra and sūrya i.e. sun and it means luminous. Indra represents the unobscured or pure mind which is thus fit for receiving the divine delight of Soma.

Along with Vayu, Indra is seen as the constant partaker of the Soma wine in the Veda. Vayu is associated to the Prana or Life-Energy. The Illumined Mind is accompanied by the regulated Prana represented by Vayu. They work together to awaken human mentality to the inflow of Ananda. 

“They receive them into the full plenitude of the mental and nervous energies, cetathāḥ sutānāṃ vājinīvasū. The Ananda thus received constitutes a new action preparing immortal consciousness in the mortal and Indra and Vayu are bidden to come and swiftly perfect these new workings by the participation of the thought, ā yātaṃ upa niṣkrtaṃ makṣū dhiyā.”

This is how one is to understand the symbols and imagery associated with the Soma wine in the Veda.

http://thesecretoftheveda.blogspot.com/2017/03/soma-divine-delight.html

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:38 PM HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsi...@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <TheBe...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Dear Friends

I have read ALL POSTS but MY FOCUS will be on just  3-4:

1. Dr Kirpal Singh writes: <It is sad that some prominent members of the Sikh Community of the like of Prof.. HS' Virk have shown solidarity with his misguided scholarship.>

I know the ARROW is pointed towards DS GULATI. But let me tell U, he provides me LINKS to all my Queries. I read Daya Nand's SATYAPARKASH sent by Gulati.

Now, I am reading RIG VEDA and RAMANUJA's Philosophy. Tell me is there ANY HARM in getting Knowledge of other religions? It will HELP in juxtaposing SIKH THOUGHT vis a vis Hindu Philosophy. DAYA NAND was DEFEATED by Gyani DIT SINGH in Lahore; McLeod by team of IOSS Chandigarh; DS Gulati is still in the line of firing! Try to engage him?

I feel Rawel Singh and others have failed to satisfy him and answer his query. DS Chahal & Prof. Puran Singh are the only GIANTS who reject Vedanta Influence on Gurbani.

2. RICHA GAUTAM: In fact, this debate hinges on TWO YOUNG LADIES: Gurbax Kahlon and Richa Gautam.

Richa is an intelligent debater WHO GOES AT TANGENT in her posts. She was calling Muslims Brute; I sent her 2 Papers to SHOW THE OTHER SIDE of ISLAM.

For ALL THE ILLS OF HINDU SOCIETY, she FINDS A SCAPEGOAT in BRITISH. She blames British for weakening the RAJPUTS through Opium. What an alibi?

She must read Indian History how RAJPUTS WERE DRIVEN INTO SUB-SERVIENCE & SLAVERY by THE MONGOL Rulers of India by marrying their daughters! 

I wish I could join her INTER-FAITH Groups. In India, I participate in both Inter-faith & Science-Religion Debate, when possible.

3. Ravindra KOUL: The GREAT PHYSICIST caught me on the wrong foot. But I quoted from Dharma Sutra without assigning it to Rig Veda.

He has OBJECTION to my calling BUDDHA PARKASH as THE BEST HISTORIAN OF ANCIENT PUNJAB. 

My fresh reading of his book reveals many new FACTS which go against presumptions of RICHA & KOUL:

(i). Page 64: According to RN Dandekar (The great Hindu historian): Rig Veda hymns were first composed in Bulkh area (beyond borders of Afganistan, bordering present Persia). Its FINAL & Revised version appeared in Sapatsindhu, the old Punjab of 7 rivers. 

(ii) YASKA writes: Rig Veda has 4 different Schools of Interpretations: Naturalists ( Nirukta); Historians; Ritualists; and Mythologists. No one knows WHICH IS Correct?

(iii). Since it has its origins in BULKH (Persia), it has COMMON TERMS with Avestha and PERSIAN Traditions. For example, for Serpent god, Rigveda uses Ahi; Persians use Aji and identical to Ahi in Avestha. 

(iv) Rigveda has INDRA God; Persians ANDRA; Avestha Vrthragna, the term used frequently in Rig Veda also..

(v) Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA.



The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "visheshan" or attributives for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it means.

It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that. Sikhs know much better about their religious practices and follow them more closely than you.

One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but those won't make you happy!

Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness. 

We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power of God.

Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty. It is beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to describe it.

I encourage you to continue your religious practice such as cow worship, idol worship, etc. because you are supposed to do it and we do not want to interfere in your religious affairs. You may also continue to worship rats, cats, bats, cows, monkies, donkies, birds, etc., but Bipars should leave the Sikh alone and mind their own business. We have a better idea of Guru's teachings than anyone else. Your caste system, in which you have tried to trap the entire world, is now exposed.

 

Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs.. I have nothing against him.  What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs either. 

Regards

 

 

Tarlochan Singh

 

On Friday, May 15, 2020, 06:26:49 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_discussion-noreply@yahoogroups...com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in ignorance.

If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference between the upanishad and Gurbani.. The upanisshad gave rise to six darshanas.

Each of these darshanas has a founder, even if Hinduism is santan. What Nanak discovered ere the eternal principles of the vedanta darshana.

In fact one third of the vedanta darshana, because vedanta darshana is propounded in three different ways ( to keep it simple - actually in more than three ways.)

So let me quote from the Isha upanishad. It is a short upanishad of only eighteen verses.

 All this is for habitation¹ by the Lord, whatsoever is individual universe of movement in the universal motion. By that renounced thou shouldst enjoy; lust not after any man’s possession.

Do you recognize the Gurbani in this? It is verse 1.

Doing verily² works in this world one should wish to live a hundred years. Thus it is in thee and not otherwise than this; action cleaves not to a man. ³

^{Again do you recognise Gurbani in this? It is verse .}

6. But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught.  Again Gurbani. It is verse six.

6. He in whom it is the Self-Being that has become all existences that are Becomings⁷ for he has the perfect knowledge, how shall he be deluded, whence shall he have grief who sees everywhere oneness? Verse 7. Is Gurbani different from this?
7. It is He that has gone abroad — That which is bright, bodiless, without scar of imperfection, without sinews, pure, unpierced by evil. The Seer, the Thinker,⁸ the One who becomes everywhere, the Self-existent has ordered objects perfectly according to their nature from years sempiternal.  Do you recognize Gurbani in verse eight?.

11. He who knows That as both in one, the Knowledge and the Ignorance, by the Ignorance crosses beyond death and by the Knowledge enjoys Immortality. Again it is Gurbani.
    

14. He who knows That as both in one, the Birth and the dissolution of Birth, by the dissolution crosses beyond death and by the Birth enjoys Immortality. Verse fourteen of upanishad.

16. O Fosterer, O sole Seer, O Ordainer, O illumining Sun, O power of the Father of creatures, marshal thy rays, draw together thy light; the Lustre which is thy most blessed form of all, that in Thee I behold. The Purusha there and there, He am I.

 

Now this verse sixteen of the upanishad is interpreted by the advaita part of the vedanta darshana as "I am God". that is ho Bhai Satpal explains Gurbani.

But Gurbani takes the vishistadvaita view of the vedanta darshana. That is hat I have been cautioning you about. That Sikhs should be vigilant about how Gurbani is presented.

17. The Breath of things¹¹ is an immortal Life, but of this body ashes are the end. OM! O Will,¹² remember, that which was done remember! O Will, remember, that which was done, remember. In this verse seventeen there is talk of the immortal soul and mortal body. It is Gurbani.

Now look at this footnote on verse one "all this is for the habitation of the Lord":

There are three possible senses of vasyam, “to be clothed”, “to be worn as a garment” and “to be inhabited”. The first is the ordinarily accepted meaning. Shankara explains it in this significance, that we must lose the sense of this unreal objective universe in the sole perception of the pure Brahman. So explained the first line becomes a contradiction of the whole thought of the Upanishad which teaches the reconciliation, by the perception of essential Unity, of the apparently incompatible opposites. God and the World, Renunciation and Enjoyment, Action and internal Freedom, the One and the Many, Being and its Becomings, the passive divine Impersonality and the active divine Personality, the Knowledge and the Ignorance, the Becoming and the Not-Becoming, Life on earth and beyond and the supreme Immortality. The image is of the world either as a garment or as a dwelling-place for the informing and governing Spirit. The latter significance agrees better with the thought of the Upanishad.

That is exactly the rendering of the Gurbani. Satpal is rendering the Shankara vie. It is not Gurbani.

I have not mentioned the other verses because the upanishad goes beyond Gurbani (having given rise to many darshanas), that you are not in a position to absorb, given your present state of mind. If you want to make a really diligent study then read this e-book: https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/

But I am afraid you are merely interested in making superficial noises. If you have the thirst for knowledge read the e-book.

You ill then discover that Sikhism has a founder and vishistadvaita has a founder. Both are sampradayas of the eternal dharma.

Both are identical. The practices of both are different; but they remain philosophically identical. Do not drag practices into this.

You have already embraced some practices that are reprehensible to you as Rawel Singh has pointed out.

Regarding Persian origin of the ved, Richa has already replied to you.

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:45 PM 'Tarlochan S. Nahal' tnah...@yahoo.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mr. Gulati,

Can you quote any line of Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib that you think is found in any of the Hindu scriptures? As Sardar S.P. Singh has mentioned, none of the Bhagats subscribed to any of the Vedanta philosophies. In fact, they were as rebellious to such thoughts as Guru Nanak Dev. They were all mistreted by the Brahmins. Bhagat Kabir and Nam Dev were physically assaulted for their beliefs. What makes you think Bhagats Ravidas, Kabir, Nam Dev, Trilochan, Dhanna, etc., were the followers of Vedanta philosophy?  All the Hindu "isms" failed to produce any courage or heroism among the Hindus where they could come face to face with reality and deal with it. They were courageous until they met the foreign invaders. Whatever courage they had was subverted by Buddhism and Jainism over 2000 years ago whom you have almost gobbled up like a boa constrictor and claim as yours! You know in your heart that if there was No Khalsa, Hinduism would have been wiped out of India just like Buddhism. 

Gurus chose the Bani of those who were downtrodden, but had a real spiritual message to convey. This is the reason Sikhs do not want to touch anything related to Vedanta with 10-foot pole.. The Gurus certainly made references to some Hindu concepts in explaining their thoughts, but never promoted those concepts. For your information the Gurus never condemned Vedas. In fact, they mention them with respect. The emphasis in Guru Granth Sahib is on Naam Simran, good thinking and good deeds. 

According to the top Hindu philosophers and former President of India, Dr. Radhakrishanan, Hinduism is not a religion; it is a way of living.

I would be grateful to you if you could answer these questions:

1. Where did the Vedanta philosophy come from? 

2. Who started Hinduism and can your name any founder? 

3. What were Hindus before there was Hinduism. What did they believe in?

The Gurus certainly used the prevalent vocabulary when when conveying their message and even used some names of Hindu gods only as "attributives" of God, this does not mean they somehow endorse them or the Hindu philosophy. I think that is the part that you have failed to understand. 

For your information Vedas and Vedic Sanskrit used Persian vocabulary and religious concepts of Avesta and Zoroastrianism. This is not a criticism of Vedas by any stretch of the imagination. What I am saying is that vocabulary and culture are all part of the regional heritage. You need to acknowledge that Sankrit did not originate in India and it came from the Persian region even though Vedas were composed in Punjab.

Please read Asa Ki Var and see what Guru Nanak Dev says about the practices that you are trying to defend and shove down the throats of the Sikhs. 

 

Regards,

 

 

Dr. Tarlochan Singh

 

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 10:18:05 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersingh.gulati2@gmail...com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_disc...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Sanatan Dharam has six darshanas. One of them is called vedanta darshana.

The highest in vedanta is the nirgun Brahaman.

So how can you claim Nanak's philosophy is very far from sanatan dharam.

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:34 AM S.P. Singh <sp....@gmail.com> wrote:

Gur Fateh 

   Guru Nanak adopted Nirgun philosophy which is far away from Sankaran Dharam . We can say near the Vedas.

    Sanatan way of life discarded people like Ravidas Kabir Namdev etc .

          

                          SPSINGH ex VC

On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 4:30 AM, Rawel Singh brgrsa@yahoo...co.in [learning-zone] <learni...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hello,

If Guru Nanak was here today he would be disappointed that his Sikhs have forgotten his teachings. They have gone back to chantings and symbolisation which do not purify the mind to make one a better person. He taught obedience to Hukam/Divine will/natural laws to lead a fruitful life.

Rawel Singh

--

S.P. Singh Dr.

Ex-Vice Chancellor, Guru Nanak Dev University

49, GF, Rajguru Nagar, Ludhiana

(Mobile): +91 98142 25278

 

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[Babu Gandhi]

This is colonial eyes looking the foot of elephant and concluding Brahman.

Thousands of hymns and books give more light on infinite wisdom of Vedic culture.Simple books of YOG VASHISTHA RAMAYANA describes two big volumes and every word is on Brahman that supreme divine.Same in Bhagvatam and other hundred of books.Shiva sutras.

Babubhai 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 17, 2020, at 2:13 AM, DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:



If we consider the fundamental ideas of the Rishis, this position of Vayu becomes intelligible. The illumination of the lower being by the higher, the mortal by the divine, was their principal concept. Light and Force, Go and Ashwa, the Cow and the Horse, were the object of the sacrifice. Force was the condition, Light the liberating agency; and Indra and Surya were the chief bringers of Light. Moreover the Force required was the divine Will taking possession of all the human energies and revealing itself in them; and of this Will, this force of conscious energy taking possession of the nervous vitality and revealing itself in it, Agni more than Vayu and especially Agni Dadhikravan was the symbol. For it is Agni who is master of Tapas, the divine Consciousness formulating itself in universal energy, of which the Prana is only a representative in the lower being. Therefore in Vamadeva’s hymn, the fifty-eighth of the fourth Mandala, it is Indra and Surya and Agni who effect the great manifestation of the conscious divinity out of the subconscient. Vata or Vayu, the nervous activity, is only a first condition of the emergent Mind. And for man it is the meeting of Life with Mind and the support given by the former to the evolution of the latter which is the important aspect of Vayu. Therefore we find Indra, Master of Mind, and Vayu, Master of Life, coupled together and the latter always somewhat dependent on the former; the Maruts, the thought-forces, although in their origin they seem to be as much powers of Vayu as of Indra, are more important to the Rishis than Vayu himself and even in their dynamic aspect are more closely associated with Agni Rudra than with the natural chief of the legions of the Air.

Do thou manifest the sacrificial energies that are unmanifested, even as a revealer of felicity and doer of the work; O Vayu, come in thy car of happy light to the drinking of the Soma wine.

Put away from thee all denials of expression and with thy steeds of the yoking, with Indra for thy charioteer come, O Vayu, in thy car of happy light to the drinking of the Soma wine.

The two that, dark, yet hold all substances, shall observe thee in their labour, they in whom are all forms. O Vayu, come in thy car of happy light to the drinking of the Soma wine.

Yoked let the ninety and nine bear thee, they who are yoked by the mind. O Vayu, come in thy car of happy light to the drinking of the Soma wine.

Yoke, O Vayu, thy hundred brilliant steeds that shall increase, or else with thy thousand let thy chariot arrive in the mass of its force.

The present hymn, the forty-eighth of the Mandala, is the last of three in which Vamadeva invokes Indra and Vayu for the drinking of the Soma-wine. They are called in conjointly as the two lords of brilliant force, śavasaspatī, as in another hymn, in a former Mandala, they are invoked as lords of thought, dhiyaspatī. Indra is the master of mental force, Vayu of nervous or vital force and their union is necessary for thought and for action. They are invited to come in one common chariot and drink together of the wine of the Ananda which brings with it the divinising energies. Vayu, it is said, has the right of the first draught; for it is the supporting vital forces that must first become capable of the ecstasy of the divine action.

https://www.aurobindo.ru/workings/sa/37_15/0031_e.htm

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 2:12 PM Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Some more thought on Indra and his character issues:

About Indra: In Sanskrit Indriya means the senses and humans are born of the senses and with the senses and Indra is the Lord of our senses. In other cultures, Indra would be Satan in Christianity, Shaitan in Islam, or Maar in Buddhism. In Sikhism I am not sure who or what is regarded as evil (besides Bipar and Caste of course? :)) But in Hinduism, there is no hate or evil associated with Indra. The world is also considered born of God and sexuality is also part of the world. Hence Indra and his devtas are supposed to be those that indulge themselves in the joys and sensualities of the world. Indra is hence the Lord of the world and as you know whenever someone tries to meditate and control his senses through Japa and Tapa, the Rishis and sages are a threat to Indra, and Indra then tries to distract them with his sensual messages. If they don't get swayed they achieve their powers or enlightenment and move away from the grip of Indra. So  in havans and vedas, Indra is called upon to maintain balance in the world. He is the rainmaker, and who keeps ongoing, the cycles of life and birth Those who want to leave Maya don't pray to Indra and Brahma but aim for release from the world of Indra or Mukti. Hindus have never been ashamed of sensuality as can be seen in various images and statues. and they pray to Indra as well, who controls practical Life in this world -he is sacred because birth and life are considered sacred including everything that is including as weaknesses or strengths and he is sensual and indulgent because that is the nature of the Indriya/ senses .

Sent from my iPhone

(v) Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA.

RIG VEDA Hymns made me hung my head IN SHAME WHEN I READ INDRA was a hard drinker of SOMA; He was a Rapist who enjoyed sex with unmarried girls and Asura woman, whose name appears in Rig Veda. He used a Monkey drug (also a druggist) to increase his sexual prowess! Indra's exploits find a mention in Guru Granth sahib also.  

4. John Ciboti: <My only question For you (which May have been answered I haven’t been able to read all the responses): the three points you referenced sound similar to the teachings of many religions, so what makes Sikhism the target, as opposed to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.?

 Welcome Ciboti; Only Gulati can Answer ur query. I understand THERE IS A COMMON STRAIN ABOUT REALITY in all religions.

HS Virk

PS: I will post Copies of BUDDHA PARKASH's book by e-mail to all those interested. It is on  Amazon.com. 

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 12:21 PM Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

and I am not quoting Gurbani but I am inspired by it. Hardev Singhji you asked me earlier about an English quote, that you liked and that was mine as well.

I am definitely interested in watching the video, learning, and debating and sharing-if there are forums that share interfaith understanding, the world would be a better place for it. Mainly because there would be an understanding of each other's point of view. Unfortunately, distrust is the starting point at most forums and especially in the East, there seems to be limited interaction between faiths.

There is a Sanatan interfaith forum where I live and for some reason, I did not see the Sikhs join in though Buddhists Jains and Hindus were adequately represented. At that time, I did not think to inquire why? But maybe there is a long bridge to build and cross before that can happen.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 12:01 AM HARDEV SINGH Virk <hardevsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa.

H'S Virk 

On Sat, 16 May 2020, 10:56 a.m. Tarlochan S. Nahal, <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Rucha,

If you are trying to quote Gurbani. This is NOT Gurbani; this is a misquote:

>Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.

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[DevinderSingh Gulati]

[Richa Gautam]

@ DS Chahal 

A list of Fermented drinks should never forget the Vodka of the Russians and Scotch of the Scots. But jokes aside, I don’t agree that Soma is linked to any of these fermented  drink as Cannabis is slowly gaining a foothold again for it’s medicinal value Especially psychosomatic and neurological diseases like epilepsy and stroke.

But what Prof Sen calls as inner elixir is not limited to any one priestly class but anyone who has the ability and desire to meditate and evolve. Which is why we have sages like Valmiki or Sant Kabir who has nothing to do with high priesthood. 

This video below  will  clear that up because it talks about the release of Inner nectar or secretion or elixir from the pineal gland which is linked to the third eye chakra and enhances intuition and develops what may be called as superhuman abilities.

https://youtu.be/hzsHF9M8y58

Sent from my iPhone

On May 17, 2020, at 2:43 PM, Devinder SIngh Chahal- IUScanada <iusc...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Avtar Matharu]

Comparing Philosophies  

Self discipline and understanding is Philosophy 

Sent from my iPad

[Richa Gautam]

Some more thought on Indra and his character issues:

About Indra: In Sanskrit Indriya means the senses and humans are born of the senses and with the senses and Indra is the Lord of our senses. In other cultures, Indra would be Satan in Christianity, Shaitan in Islam, or Maar in Buddhism. In Sikhism I am not sure who or what is regarded as evil (besides Bipar and Caste of course? :)) But in Hinduism, there is no hate or evil associated with Indra. The world is also considered born of God and sexuality is also part of the world. Hence Indra and his devtas are supposed to be those that indulge themselves in the joys and sensualities of the world. Indra is hence the Lord of the world and as you know whenever someone tries to meditate and control his senses through Japa and Tapa, the Rishis and sages are a threat to Indra, and Indra then tries to distract them with his sensual messages. If they don't get swayed they achieve their powers or enlightenment and move away from the grip of Indra. So  in havans and vedas, Indra is called upon to maintain balance in the world. He is the rainmaker, and who keeps ongoing, the cycles of life and birth Those who want to leave Maya don't pray to Indra and Brahma but aim for release from the world of Indra or Mukti. Hindus have never been ashamed of sensuality as can be seen in various images and statues. and they pray to Indra as well, who controls practical Life in this world -he is sacred because birth and life are considered sacred including everything that is including as weaknesses or strengths and he is sensual and indulgent because that is the nature of the Indriya/ senses .

Sent from my iPhone

On May 17, 2020, at 2:00 AM, DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Devinder SIngh Chahal- IUScanada]

Madame Richa Gautam entirely ignored my missive. 

I was talking about the ancient drink SOMA in Hinduism and other drinks in other religions but not the today's SPIRITS produced in the world.

I understand that expert Hindu scholars are trying to re-write Vedas and Vedanta philosophies. 

You can ignore the use of SOMA for Hallucination by priestly class by introducing the pineal gland and the third eye to get the same Hallucination.

There is no such thing like third eye in human body. To call pineal gland as the third eye is only in Hinduism. The function of pineal glad is to produce melatonin hormone to induce sleep to feel good. 

No such Inner nectar or secretion or elixir are produced by the pineal gland.  

It is all in Vedas and Vedanta sciences. What they are trying to do is to create self-hallucination or  self-hypnosis where a person enters in different state which is considered as the fourth state.

Two year ago I entered into this hallucination stage when I was controlling my pain by introducing morphine through intravenous system. I used too much morphine than required. I entered into a different world altogether days and nights. After a few days I reported this condition to my doctor. He called the psychiatric and he discovered that morphine overdose has caused this condition (hallucination). Morphine was stopped immediately and it took three days for me to come back to normal consciousness.

Let us try to understand functions of human body medically and scientifically rather than to induce so-called inner nectar, a non-medical product,  which may lead to Schizophrenia.

Regards, 

Devinder Singh Chahal

iusanada.com

[Rabinder Koul]

In KundaliniYoga the rise of Shakti in Sushmnaa is also presented as cool light of Soma for awaking to ultimate reality. That is why it appear in teh Hattas of Shiva. And is called Soma.

Ravindra Koul

अस्मद्रूपसमाविष्ठ: स्वात्मनात्मानिवारणे 

शिव: करोतु निजया नम: शक्त्या ततात्मने 

[DevinderSingh Gulati]

If we consider the fundamental ideas of the Rishis, this position of Vayu becomes intelligible. The illumination of the lower being by the higher, the mortal by the divine, was their principal concept. Light and Force, Go and Ashwa, the Cow and the Horse, were the object of the sacrifice. Force was the condition, Light the liberating agency; and Indra and Surya were the chief bringers of Light. Moreover the Force required was the divine Will taking possession of all the human energies and revealing itself in them; and of this Will, this force of conscious energy taking possession of the nervous vitality and revealing itself in it, Agni more than Vayu and especially Agni Dadhikravan was the symbol. For it is Agni who is master of Tapas, the divine Consciousness formulating itself in universal energy, of which the Prana is only a representative in the lower being. Therefore in Vamadeva’s hymn, the fifty-eighth of the fourth Mandala, it is Indra and Surya and Agni who effect the great manifestation of the conscious divinity out of the subconscient. Vata or Vayu, the nervous activity, is only a first condition of the emergent Mind. And for man it is the meeting of Life with Mind and the support given by the former to the evolution of the latter which is the important aspect of Vayu. Therefore we find Indra, Master of Mind, and Vayu, Master of Life, coupled together and the latter always somewhat dependent on the former; the Maruts, the thought-forces, although in their origin they seem to be as much powers of Vayu as of Indra, are more important to the Rishis than Vayu himself and even in their dynamic aspect are more closely associated with Agni Rudra than with the natural chief of the legions of the Air.

Do thou manifest the sacrificial energies that are unmanifested, even as a revealer of felicity and doer of the work; O Vayu, come in thy car of happy light to the drinking of the Soma wine.

Put away from thee all denials of expression and with thy steeds of the yoking, with Indra for thy charioteer come, O Vayu, in thy car of happy light to the drinking of the Soma wine.

The two that, dark, yet hold all substances, shall observe thee in their labour, they in whom are all forms. O Vayu, come in thy car of happy light to the drinking of the Soma wine.

Yoked let the ninety and nine bear thee, they who are yoked by the mind. O Vayu, come in thy car of happy light to the drinking of the Soma wine.

Yoke, O Vayu, thy hundred brilliant steeds that shall increase, or else with thy thousand let thy chariot arrive in the mass of its force.

The present hymn, the forty-eighth of the Mandala, is the last of three in which Vamadeva invokes Indra and Vayu for the drinking of the Soma-wine. They are called in conjointly as the two lords of brilliant force, śavasaspatī, as in another hymn, in a former Mandala, they are invoked as lords of thought, dhiyaspatī. Indra is the master of mental force, Vayu of nervous or vital force and their union is necessary for thought and for action. They are invited to come in one common chariot and drink together of the wine of the Ananda which brings with it the divinising energies. Vayu, it is said, has the right of the first draught; for it is the supporting vital forces that must first become capable of the ecstasy of the divine action.

https://www.aurobindo.ru/workings/sa/37_15/0031_e.htm

[HARDEV SINGH Virk]

The SCHOLAR of Rig Veda has given an alternative EXPLANATION OF SOMA but FAILED to give Explanation of sexual exploits of Indra reported in Rig Veda?

Even the name of ASURA Woman is given in THE HYMNs.

HS Virk

DR HS VIRK

#360, Sector 71, SAS Nagar (Mohali)-160071

Web:http://drhsvirk.weebly.com






 
 

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 1:31 PM DevinderSingh Gulati devindersi...@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <TheBe...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

(iv) Rigveda has INDRA God; Persians ANDRA; Avestha Vrthragna, the term used frequently in Rig Veda also..

(v) Out of 1028 Suktas in Rig Veda, 250 are devoted to glorify God INDRA.

RIG VEDA Hymns made me hung my head IN SHAME WHEN I READ INDRA was a hard drinker of SOMA; He was a Rapist who enjoyed sex with unmarried girls and Asura woman, whose name appears in Rig Veda. He used a Monkey drug (also a druggist) to increase his sexual prowess! Indra's exploits find a mention in Guru Granth sahib also.  

4. John Ciboti: <My only question For you (which May have been answered I haven’t been able to read all the responses): the three points you referenced sound similar to the teachings of many religions, so what makes Sikhism the target, as opposed to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.?

 Welcome Ciboti; Only Gulati can Answer ur query. I understand THERE IS A COMMON STRAIN ABOUT REALITY in all religions.

HS Virk

PS: I will post Copies of BUDDHA PARKASH's book by e-mail to all those interested. It is on  Amazon.com. 

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 12:21 PM Richa Gautam <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

and I am not quoting Gurbani but I am inspired by it. Hardev Singhji you asked me earlier about an English quote, that you liked and that was mine as well.

I am definitely interested in watching the video, learning, and debating and sharing-if there are forums that share interfaith understanding, the world would be a better place for it. Mainly because there would be an understanding of each other's point of view. Unfortunately, distrust is the starting point at most forums and especially in the East, there seems to be limited interaction between faiths.

There is a Sanatan interfaith forum where I live and for some reason, I did not see the Sikhs join in though Buddhists Jains and Hindus were adequately represented. At that time, I did not think to inquire why? But maybe there is a long bridge to build and cross before that can happen.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 12:01 AM HARDEV SINGH Virk <hardevsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa.

H'S Virk 

On Sat, 16 May 2020, 10:56 a.m. Tarlochan S. Nahal, <tnah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Rucha,

If you are trying to quote Gurbani. This is NOT Gurbani; this is a misquote:

>Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya..

__._,_.___

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Posted by: DevinderSingh Gulati <devindersi...@gmail.com>

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[HARDEV SINGH Virk]

Dr DS Chaha wrote: <I understand that expert Hindu scholars are trying to re-write Vedas and Vedanta philosophies.>

U are Right, Dr Chahal: Vedas went into hibernation after Slavery of 1000 years and became a dead force in India. The revival came when Europeans Scholars wrote treatises on Vedas. But some clever, rather cunning, Hindu Scholars tried to mislead Indians that Europeans had COPIED MODERN SCIENCE THEORIES from Vedas, which is The BIG Lie being propagated from forums like Indian Parliament & Indian Science Congress; I was a WITNESS to these FALSE CLAIMS in Jan 2019 ( Ind. Sci. Congress at LPU Jallandur inaugurated by PM). 

Prof. PURAN SINGH during 1920s wrote in his book "Spirit of The Sikh": Great Hindu philosophers like Tilak, Aurobindo and Tagore are reinterpreting the Gita and the Upanishads in order to come abreast with modern Western thought and scientific conclusions.
 No One KNOWS THE ORIGINAL SOURCE of Vedas?

<You can ignore the use of SOMA for Hallucination by priestly class by introducing the pineal gland and the third eye to get the same Hallucination.>

The modern Science does not accept it. But I found our Kathakar SANT SINGH Maskeen has also written a book on THIRD EYE.

HS Virk

   



- In Russia similar drink called Kefir is prepared by fermenting goat milk or cow milk..

- Royal family of Arabia was fermenting grape juice to prepare wine.

So the priestly class in Christianity were fermenting grapes to prepare wine from grapes.

Only priestly class or Royal families were allowed to enjoy such drinks but for others drinking of such drinks is SIN.

IS THIS A GOD MADE RULE IN ALL EVERY RELIGIONS?

Regards, 

Devinder Singh Chahal

iuscanada.com

 

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:47 AM Prof. Joy Sen <joy...@arp.iitkgp.ac.in> wrote:

There is a direct reference in the Rig Veda, in 10.84 mandala which says, only the lesser mind, the material mind thinks Soma is an intoxicating plant; but the inner mind of the aspirant, who has got an access to the Neuro-physiological corridors of meditation and the further expansion of his vital and mental into the conduits of cosmic consciousness, knows Soma is the divine power of the Aditya, a inner elixir that only descends from the cosmic solar consciousness and is made accessible to the pure aspirant, who ascends by Agni (igneous) principle.
'Somena Aditya Balam', Rig Veda (10th mandala)
Thus the combined 'Agni-Soma' complementarity presents the psycho or Igneous-Somatic tradition of the Sages of ANGIRASA (the essence of Sadhana).
All Deva Loka aspirants who has become a Rishi, becomes a Sage of ANGIRASA.
In other words, he or she gets an ability to trans mutate their vital essence of the Anga (Soma or Wings or Anga of the corporeal part) to the Highest Rasa, the elixir of life.

In the older orders of the Rig Veda, Indra, Mitra, Varuna ...to Vishnu are the 12 cardinal circuitous names of the 12 Adityas, who are both the Devas, by the ascending order and Ashuras by the descending order. Dr. Hale has a huge compendium on these clarification of the term ASHURA under the earliest Vedic thought. The earliest Gathas of the Iranians and the Bhrigu Samhita portion of the Atharva Veda had a common origin.

Prof. Jatindramohan Chatterjee has a book on ' Hymns of Atharvan Zarathusthra', which is available on the net, and great scholars from Sri Aurobindo and Joseph Campbell have strong deliberations on these clarification..

>>>>> scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith.. It was Guru Nanak

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[Rabinder Koul]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBokQomPr_g&fbclid=IwAR147cgckimhA4Sd2PdOSKs-qo6kJPSh3rYirSl1rGXmEWujaYoDWHSvEac

Third Eye Spies (2019) | Official Trailer HD

Ravindra Koul

अस्मद्रूपसमाविष्ठ: स्वात्मनात्मानिवारणे 

शिव: करोतु निजया नम: शक्त्या ततात्मने