Blood Bowl and its derivatives...

[John Hermansen]

I know a lot of you have played Blood Bowl and are familiar with this type of gameplay, but I am not!

I've been keeping an eye out on the recent ones to come out: Dreadball (rules seemed fiddly and overly complex), Kaosball (rules seemed overly simplified and lacking depth), but the most recent one up is Slaughterball. 

This one looks like a perfect blend of simple game play with unique powers to add depth to your choices during the game. That said, I haven't played any of these games and am not sure what to look for in game play!

So I'm wondering what those of you who've played Blood Bowl or Dreadball think of this one. What makes sports games fun? Anything in Slaughterball jump out as extremely irritating or worrisome? 

I backed out of Dreadball after the rules videos started coming out, and it did not look at all like something I could teach a friend in five minutes and start playing that evening. I backed out of Kaosball once the game play videos came out. I was super excited about that one, but it really looked like you'd only have one obvious choice to make each turn and would be boring. 

I dunno. I'm currently backing Slaughterball (locked up one of the Early Bird Butchers just in case) but wanted to get more thoughts. It's a hell of a lot of money up front and I was curious about what others thought!

Thanks,

John

[asalc...@gmail.com]

I backed dreadball on kickstarter, so I have a ton of stuff.  It's a good time and not half as complex as you might think.  I think it will have a learning curve similar to Dust: a turn or two to understand how the game works, much longer to plumb strategies.  (Disclaimer: I have played three matches so my insights are fairly shallow).  

I met up with Thel for a couple games so he could scratch the blood bowl itch and try out his team of ladies.  We talked about stirring up recruits for a league, as these games are invariably better when using the advancement rules, so I'm all for encouraging people to give the game a shot.  I have human and ork teams assembled with dwarves and "totally not space skaven, why would you even say something like that?" on deck if a couple pegs down on the hobby queue.  I'm happy to run folks through a test drive.

As for the others, I can't speak to them.  I have some blood bowl stuff kicking around, but I never really got the system to work for me, which is why I got in on dreadball to begin with.

Sent from my iPhone

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[John Hermansen]

What stands out as fun within Dreadball? Are there any specific game mechanisms, decisions, or overall feeling that makes it entertaining? What do you find yourself thinking about after the game is complete? 

Ideally, I'd like to find a solution similar to Lords of Waterdeep: you can start the game explaining only two or three important rules, and the game's complexity increases as you play through, due to different cards or abilities that become available in future rounds. I don't necessarily know if I'll find this in a sports game, but I've been wanting to add one to my collection for a while now!

Adam, I'd love to take you up on some games in the future. We're going to be moving to Reston here shortly (GOGOGADGET SILVER LINE) and I'm potentially changing jobs to something with more free time. Once that happens, I should be able to start showing up again.

[Logan Baranowitz]

I have Dreadball as well and I'm actually signed up to play in the tournament at Adepticon. Haven't decided on who I'm using yet but this is more to get some games in with people who hopefully know a lot about the game. I have the human and ork teams from the box and also have built the "totally not skaven" and the locust teams. Once I get out of busy season at work I'd be up for some games.

What I like most about Dreadball is that it is quick when both players know what they are doing. You only get a few actions per turn and only 7 turns per side. It still feels like a lot happens in the game still. The action is fast as once someone scores the ball comes out immediately. There are basic teams in the books and you can make it as complicated as you want by adding more depth to it.

I think Blood Bowl is a better game overall, but this is a quicker game that is actually supported. I haven't played any of the other games so don't have an opinion as of yet. Slaughterball seems fairly divergent from the football style games you mentioned, but that is at first glance and not watching the videos.

[Mike Schaefer]

There's another sports game due out "early 2014", called Guild Ball.  My first reaction was, "Oh my god, not another sports game jumping on the bandwagon," but looking at it a little closer, I'm impressed with some promising, innovative mechanics, as well as its high-end concept art and relatively novel, fantasy setting.  

Blood Bowl takes too long, and the models for Dreadball don't excite me, but I'm keeping my eye on Guild Ball.

[John Hermansen]

I've been keeping an eye on Guild Ball as well, but the game play and rules haven't really been summed up in one place yet. The models look fantastic, but it's gotta come down to game play for me at this point. Everyone and their mother has a new game with fantastic models and crap game play on Kickstarter these days. It appears to be far easier to find/hire artists than play testers who know what they're doing. This interview worries me a bit, in particular bits like this part here:

Me: Your "playbook" is a feature that reminds me of the mechanic used by Arena Rex. The playbooks of some players are pretty complex, for example Shark's and Angel's playbook have two different start points and three branches with multiple points to cross between them. Can you please explain how it works? And aren't you afraid that to many options might slow down the game?

Mat:  Exactly! We found this to be a major problem in play test and have revised the design to keep it simple, fast and yet still as deep in terms of tactics. The playbook you’ve all seen has actually been worked on somewhat and is with our graphic design guy to polish out the look and feel. We’ve moved away from the ‚follow a path‘ through the playbook as we found it slowed the game down dramatically. We’ve still kept the core elements of player choice and tactical flexibility in options but have simplified the whole process. It looks very different now!

Essentially each hit generated now allows greater access to results, working from left to right you only pick one result from the playbook now. The more hits you get the better the results and more options you have to pick from. Boar’s playbook is quite simple, other models with a different tactical use will have more options to choose from at every level.

What’s interesting is that we have not removed anything from the previous playbook in terms of cumulative damage and similar things but the whole thing is much simpler.

This is much faster than the previous system and provides as much depth...we’re really happy with where we’ve got to with this mechanic now.

Guild Ball looks more like Malifaux First Edition (or 1.5) to me. Lots of incredible depth and options. Starts out simple--just an easy card flip with Malifaux!--but you'll get obliterated in a heartbeat because your opponent has memorized all combinations and synergies between set player types. These games are a lot of fun with a dedicated group of people to play over and over (and get into the core game play) but very difficult for a new player to pick up and be competitive. Games like this are a lot closer to the min/maxing I'm looking to avoid with this purchase. 

In contrast, here's what jumped out to me from the rules for Slaughterball, and were mentioned in a play tester's thoughts on BGG:

Like #1. Many paths to victory: I was the guy that almost always focused on scoring goals. I chose the fastest, most accurate teams and then ran around staying away from the others who were busy beating each other up. I just shot for the goals. I won plenty of times. But then at the other end of the spectrum was Dave who I don't think even knew where the goals were. He chose the biggest, strongest teams and went around scoring points by pummeling the other players out of the game. He won plenty of games too. Others tried a mix of goals and beat-downs with equal success. Which brings me to Like #2:

Like #2. Really tight games. We played mostly four player games and I think every game was decided by a single point between first and second. The last place player was rarely more than four or five points behind. Which brings me to...

Like #3. Simple but very effective catch-up mechanism. The last-place player gets to influence where the ball goes after a goal is scored (or missed). As simple as it sounds, this is huge. Being able to send the ball your way can get you right back in the game no matter how far you've fallen behind. And of course once you've caught up and passed someone, then they get to do the same thing. It works very well.

It sounds like it's just going to come down to personal preference. In a sports tabletop game (I don't really care what game it's like, not looking for something to mimic football or any sport in particular) I'm hoping to find something where your decisions are tactical and not strategic. You and I sit down one evening, I tell you the basic rules and we start. The game play creates interesting decisions on its own. 

[Thel]

I have spent a lot of time playing Blood Bowl over the years. It is a game that I really have gotten a lot out of. Really some of my favorite times with a mini game have been with Blood Bowl. It epitomizes the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat! (well, for me...if you get the reference!)

However, it DOES take a long time to play. I just started playing with some guys, who don't like to use timed turns...which is sort of strange to me. I don't know how long I can run with that.

When I noticed Dread Ball, I of course, could not help but look into it and make some comparisons.

For starters, the biggest thing in DB that is different from BB is the PACE. DB just moves at a fast pace. The action never really stops. There are numerous ways to score, and the dice test mechanic is actually very fun. (Unless you are facing Adam and his loaded dice!  LOL ) It also is a game, like BB, where you will get a lot out of it if you can play in some sort of league, and BUILD teams over time. Honestly, that is the appeal. The same sort of appeal that BB had, as did Necromunda and Mordheim. All great games, where the real fun was managing your models progression, responding to the opponents you had in your environment and trying to eek out victory.

I have been talking to Chris at Huzzah and he thinks if some attempted tostart a DB group, there would be interest. Maybe now that DW is dead as far as I am concerned, it is time to see if that is the case. I just have not been out to Huzzah in a few weeks and I am leaving for California this weekend!

Shades does have a valid point that the models are not very exciting. They actually are rather tiny, and for the non gifted painters, hard to bring out some detail.

[John Hermansen]

Well, things have been made easier! With Dreadball Xtreme and Guild Ball out at the same time, Slaughterball was getting no traction and lost a bunch of funding to those two options. 

I'm in on Dreadball Xtreme and will give it a shot. Still worried about the complex ruleset for bringing new players in, but you're right, Thel, it seems to be a great solution for regular league play with knowledgable players. Guild Ball is heavy in solos, so I intend to avoid it and will look to Malifaux2E for that fix. 

That all said, I think I'm going to get involved with the relaunch of Slaughterball and help with the pricing and stretch goal brainstorming. Whereas Dreadball gives the feel of a season, Slaughterball looks to give me the "pick up" game feel I'm looking for. Plus the way you score points builds up some super exciting dice rolls. You score as many points as you are spaces away. So although there are certain players that have greater ranges, all have a chance to score on their maximum range if the dice are in your favor! You can also score points simply from beating on people and injuring or removing them from the game. And the coolest part is that the losing player always gets the lucky bounce, in that they get to choose which way the ball rolls when it scatters in the game. Super excited for the relaunch of this one.