AGM Motion: Armour Rules
Marios
The armour rules are tricky. I posted on Pagga last year
asking if anyone had a better solution than pyramidal (sensible but
complicated) or fully-regenerative (simple but heinous).
So, this suggestion is partly based on the best other
suggestion (other than the massive upheaval required to move to global
hits).
Armour is fully regenerative, but doesn't absorb all the blow.
While armour is 'up' on a location (and you are being hit on the parts
of the location covered by the armour!), every blow does -1 degree,
not dropping below halves.
For instance, Jiminy Brick has 4 hits on his weapon arm and 5
pt chainmail and it being hit with doubles, the first three doubles
take (2pts off the armour each) knock out the armour and deal 3 hits
of damage to Brick's arm, now that the armour's knocked out, any
further damage does as normal on an unarmoured location.
Marios
Marios
> Armour is fully regenerative, but doesn't absorb all the blow.
>While armour is 'up' on a location (and you are being hit on the parts
>of the location covered by the armour!), every blow does -1 degree,
>not dropping below halves.
> For instance, Jiminy Brick has 4 hits on his weapon arm and 5
>pt chainmail and it being hit with doubles, the first three doubles
>take (2pts off the armour each) knock out the armour and deal 3 hits
>of damage to Brick's arm, now that the armour's knocked out, any
>further damage does as normal on an unarmoured location.
Gimby and I have come up with a potential modification that
would make it even simpler.
X pt armour on a location means that X blows (not X pts of
damage) are 'cushioned' (e.g. -1 degree damage). This is even simpler
than the previous example, 3 pt armour means that the first three
blows on a location do 1 degree less damage.
Note: Halves remain Halves, but don't reduce the armour. E.g.
You get hit with a Single on your (6pt ) metal helmet and you take a
Half (Single - 1 degree) and the helmet can take 5 more blows before
it ceases to offer protection (until the encounter is over). You get
hit with a Half on your (6pt) metal helmet and you take a Half (Half
won't get reduced to Nothing) and your helmet can still take 6 more
blows.
Marios
Niallzzzzzz
daniel prebble
Marios wrote:
> Dear Me,
>
>
>
>
> Gimby and I have come up with a potential modification that
> would make it even simpler.
> X pt armour on a location means that X blows (not X pts of
> damage) are 'cushioned' (e.g. -1 degree damage). This is even simpler
> than the previous example, 3 pt armour means that the first three
> blows on a location do 1 degree less damage.
> Note: Halves remain Halves, but don't reduce the armour. E.g.
> You get hit with a Single on your (6pt ) metal helmet and you take a
> Half (Single - 1 degree) and the helmet can take 5 more blows before
> it ceases to offer protection (until the encounter is over). You get
> hit with a Half on your (6pt) metal helmet and you take a Half (Half
> won't get reduced to Nothing) and your helmet can still take 6 more
> blows.
> Marios
I find your system overcomplicated and offensive. No really.
Marcus Rich
> While armour is 'up' on a location (and you are being hit on the parts
> of the location covered by the armour!), every blow does -1 degree,
> not dropping below halves.
> For instance, Jiminy Brick has 4 hits on his weapon arm and 5
> pt chainmail and it being hit with doubles, the first three doubles
> take (2pts off the armour each) knock out the armour and deal 3 hits
> of damage to Brick's arm, now that the armour's knocked out, any
> further damage does as normal on an unarmoured location.
> Marios
Would be interesting to playtest this, I half suspect it would actually be
harder to keep track of...
Marcus
---
"I'm not lost, I just haven't pinpointed exactly where we are at the
moment" - Belgarath The Sorceror
Marcus Rich
Marios
Would you prefer fully ablative?
I took the time to give it a full description - easier would
be to say that 2 pt will take 2 blows down a degree. Quad, Quad --->
Triple. Triple and the armours gone.
Marios
Marios
>> Armour is fully regenerative, but doesn't absorb all the blow.
>> While armour is 'up' on a location (and you are being hit on the parts
>> of the location covered by the armour!), every blow does -1 degree,
>> not dropping below halves.
>> For instance, Jiminy Brick has 4 hits on his weapon arm and 5
>> pt chainmail and it being hit with doubles, the first three doubles
>> take (2pts off the armour each) knock out the armour and deal 3 hits
>> of damage to Brick's arm, now that the armour's knocked out, any
>> further damage does as normal on an unarmoured location.
>> Marios
>
>Would be interesting to playtest this, I half suspect it would actually be
>harder to keep track of...
It's not particularly popular. The trouble is, there is not
quick fix solution to the armour system - it's a closed loop of string
with knots - you can move the knots from one place to another but you
can't eradicate their presence.
You can have a dirt simple system, which isn't broken (in the
sense of being gross or basically 'ignoring' lots of damage) and isn't
complicated.
Full ablative non-regenerating is very simple and not broken.
But doesn't really support very long adventures, near the last
encounter everyone will be injured with their armour screwed in all
the locations they aren't good at protecting. This isn't actually a
terminal problem - who says people have to be their hardest at the
last encounter? What's wrong with a final showdown that kills 1/3 of
the remaining characters? - but it does limit the number of fights on
the adventure.
The basic problem people have with is (i) it's harsh on
mistakes - get gibbed by a surprise encounter early on, your armour's
f'ed forever more and (ii) differentiates on skill, people who leave
one location open all the time and never defend it will have the
armour stripped off that location by fight encounter 2 - once again,
this is not really a bad thing - you'll have no problem learning which
locations you're bad at guarding.
Full ablative Full regen is extremely hard to break through.
We tried it before the beginning of term and it can be done but the
mosh factor has to go up very steeply and there's still a 'stair-step'
phenomena. Up to a certain point fight encounters do next to nothing
as all the damage is soaked by the regenerating armour. After a
certain point, character's die like bitches. There's no gradual loss
of hits - which is realistic. In real life, you're ok, you're ok,
you're ok, you've got a slight scratch, you've taken a serious wound,
you're dead. Under full regen armour is extremely, extremely powerful
(which is ironic because it's one of the cheapest things in the system
- you start off with 2/3 of your pinnacle practical armour use for
free and then the next to levels you need to max out what you have
phys-reps for takes 12XP).
But both of the previous systems are simple - the full regen
is even simpler, since you don't have to keep track of how much armour
you have left between encounters - it always returns to full. No need
for a battleboard for armour - you just need to keep track of hits.
Pyramidal is a compromise between the two - allows for longer
adventures, but damage is never 'ignored'. It's never automatically
best to fight like a berserker because losing armour always matters.
But it does require a battleboard to keep track of where the
armour is (current armour hits, maximum armour hits, how many times
it's been fixed for every location).
My suggestion shifts some of the complexity from the
battleboarding (which would then be unnecessary) into combat. You get
hit, decrement the number of blows the armour can take and take the
damage-1 degree. Yeah, it's not as good as getting hit and taking the
damage off the combined hits of the location (add them up at the
beginning of the encounter).
But I felt I ought to provide another option than pyramidal.
Marios
Mark Potter
> But I felt I ought to provide another option than pyramidal.
>
> Marios
Theres always multiplicative armour:- especially if you take average
armour rather than treat it location by location.
The only problem is then through damage (and people taking off/losing
armour).
Mark.
marios richards
The hyper-simple version is:
(i) Ablative armour, fully-regenerating between encounters.
(ii) Reducing armour from 1-6 pts to 1-3 pts.
Discuss.
Marios
marios richards
> Theres always multiplicative armour:- especially if you take average
> armour rather than treat it location by location.
>
> The only problem is then through damage (and people taking off/losing
> armour).
Multiplicative is fine, but it really requires global hits (which, I
suspect, is too much of a jump.
On the subject, I do like the idea of uber-simple global hit system for
first timers.
Marios
Paul Townend
: On the subject, I do like the idea of uber-simple
: global hit system for first timers.
I like it too. In fact, I don't see what's wrong with it for anyone. If
you're hit in the arm, then just role play it. If you end up taking 6
points of damage on your arm, the chances are you'll be hemorrhaging
massively from it anyway, so unconsciousness/death are sure to result.
I realise I speak as the worst role-playing in the society ;-)
Paul
marios richards
> : On the subject, I do like the idea of uber-simple
> : global hit system for first timers.
>
>
> I like it too. In fact, I don't see what's wrong with it for anyone. If
> you're hit in the arm, then just role play it. If you end up taking 6
> points of damage on your arm, the chances are you'll be hemorrhaging
> massively from it anyway, so unconsciousness/death are sure to result.
Something to play with over summer, I think.
> I realise I speak as the worst role-playing in the society ;-)
Naturally, respect the pecking order, up the ziggurate lickety-spit.
Marios
Marcus Rich
Quick question as I seem to have missed it, what's the actual problem with
the current armour system?
Marios
>Quick question as I seem to have missed it, what's the actual problem with
>the current armour system?
The pyramidal system is simple in combat - just ablative hits,
but between combat there are so many numbers to take into account -
each location has current armour, armour maximum, current armour
maximum - that it requires a battleboard. Which is bad. Not
end-of-the-world, but if battleboards aren't required then adventures
don't need to keep stopping and certain adventures - e.g. non-linears
- don't allow for battleboards.
Eradicating the need for battleboards would be a good thing.
Marios
Mark Potter
> marios richards (marios....@durham.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> : On the subject, I do like the idea of uber-simple
> : global hit system for first timers.
>
>
> I like it too.
Yes: Global hits, 1-3 points of either multiplicative or ablative
armour, less through damage; It would be easier to balance
spell/potion effects.
Mark.
Mark Potter
> Quick question as I seem to have missed it, what's the actual problem with
> the current armour system?
>
> Marcus
I think its regarded as too powerful, and makes adventures hard to
stat because:
(1) Large difference between the tanks and the unarmoured people.
(2) Fights tend to either cause no permanent damage or kill the party:
no gradual ablation of numbers throughout the day.
But dont listen to me: I dont play much these days.
j d mcgettrick
Marcus Rich wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, marios richards wrote:
>
>
>>Dear All,
>> The hyper-simple version is:
>> (i) Ablative armour, fully-regenerating between encounters.
>> (ii) Reducing armour from 1-6 pts to 1-3 pts.
>> Discuss.
>
>
> Quick question as I seem to have missed it, what's the actual problem with
> the current armour system?
>
Its grossly overpowered for its points cost - it makes a character in armour almost totally
invulnverable unless you introduce unsatisfying and, to be frank, unfair amounts of magic/monsters.
Personally I think making armour skill more expensive would solve alot of the problems:
Armour Use = 10pts
New Weakness Skill "Soft" -30pts [3xarmour use skill]
The character is naturally soft and hates the horrible weight of armour, the uncomfortable feel of
leather or metal on his skin. The character will never wear _any_ armour, losing both the inherent
ability to wear armour and the ability to buy the armour use / scout armour skills.
--
Jimbob!
*hyperfluffiness is a state of mind*
Marios
>Its grossly overpowered for its points cost - it makes a character in armour almost totally
>invulnverable unless you introduce unsatisfying and, to be frank, unfair amounts of magic/monsters.
Pyramidal isn't nearly as broken as full-regen! But at the
cost of battleboards and degrading armour.
>Personally I think making armour skill more expensive would solve alot of the problems:
>
>Armour Use = 10pts
>
>New Weakness Skill "Soft" -30pts [3xarmour use skill]
>The character is naturally soft and hates the horrible weight of armour, the uncomfortable feel of
>leather or metal on his skin. The character will never wear _any_ armour, losing both the inherent
>ability to wear armour and the ability to buy the armour use / scout armour skills.
I see the advantages of a chunky 'lose inherent armour use'
skill - e.g. don't have to change character sheets that don't have
this - but it is pretty inelegant in the long term.
I still think we should go with removing the inherent armour
and just letting people buy it back with the armour skills, if they
have the appropriates requirements. Post AGM, if the motions go
through, many people will want/need to update their chatacter sheets
anyway (oh the refs will love me!), so buying a few extra levels of
armour doesn't make much difference.
Giving the inability to double-buy core abilities, there's not
much use for large gain skills like "Soft" or "Weakness", either.
Notching armour up to 10pts is a good idea - if you have to
buy armour at every level to max out (80XP) then it is well worth it
if you consider that a point of armour is about half as good as a hit
point (comparing 3 levels of health to 1 level of armour).
Whatever we do, the armour skill should give <Rounded up((Max
Armour - Starting Armour)/8)> pts / lvl.
Ditto, for scout armour, except that Max armour is 2 (or 3 if
it makes the numbers easier - Fur and Leather hardening can be
interpreted either way).
Marios
Jessica M
Don't worry there, I played a being of pure ego who kept getting
ignored and who no-one guessed what it was.
Still I have 6 years of practise on that
ora...@hotmail.com
1-4 points?
'cos it works more easily over 8 levels?
then armour skill = 3 location pts/level
what values?
presumably 'mage' armour is only 1pt?
1=fur/leather
2=ring
3=chain
4=plate?