Basic Game Play Questions

[binarysunrise]

Ok...got all my dice made. The PnP game instructions seemed a bit lacking (at least for my understanding).

Please correct my gameplay errors:

You start by taking 1 green Hero Level dice (numbered 1-6 with an icon of how many green dice to attack with)

You take 2 treasure dice, and 1 green dice - these are what you fight with.

You grab a monster dice out of the black bag, and roll it to find how strong he is.

You then give up your turn (run away), fight it yourself, or ask for help.

If facing the monster - you roll the number of black dice indicated by the monster's strength.

Countering him, you (and your partner) roll all of your green dice (but not the Level Dice), 1-3 of your blue/yellow treasure/equipment dice (1 armor, 1-2 weapons), and a red one-use die (if appropriate).

You look at any equipment abilities or spells that you (or the monster) rolled. You then follow the instructions (removing dice, adding dice, re-rolling dice, etc.). Then you add up the dice on either side, looking for the largest total #.

If you win, you get/argue over the treasure. The main player gets the trophy, if there is one, and everyone moves their level up a number (possibly adding another green die to combat). 

If you lose, each player retires one of their green dice (until they choose to skip a turn, or drink a potion). If it's a tie, you get the treasure *and* retire a green dice.

Then it's the next person's turn.

You keep a running tally of any trophies or yellow dice acquired, trying to get 4 points total.

*****

Questions - 

1) If you lose on the first round, you retire your sole green dice. Can you keep playing (fighting with just your 2 blue dice?) What happens if you lose again? (you have no green dice to retire)

2) If you tie with a trophy monster, do you get the trophy?

Thanks!

[Sam Coates]

You are playing correctly.  I am currently reworking and expanding the rules. 

 

Q1 - You may keep fighting with no chance of being wounded.  It is usually wiser to heal up. 

Q2 - Yes.  You kill the monster but also sustain wounds.

[binarysunrise]

Well, I plan to play correctly from now on :)

Our first game I was adding a green dice after every victory, and using *all* of the blue/yellow dice in my possession. Typing up this summary made me read the directions more closely.

[Sam Coates]

Not your fault.  It's very difficult to write rules from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the rules. 

 

The rules are very well thought and tested, but not well communicated.  I hope to improve this by the relaunch.

[binarysunrise]

My 3 five-year olds love the game so far, so as soon as I figure out all the directions and teach it to them, this will be one of our favorite games.

A few more questions (from Game #2):

1) The Kill symbol - "experience point" is the same thing as "hero level," right? (one example of multiple terms for the same thing)

2) The magical artifact "tangle" is a weapon to hold, right? Not a spell?

3) If you draw to shields initially from the treasure bag, is that 2nd shield pretty worthless until you get 5 blue dice that you can exchange for an artifact?

4) I know magic artifacts are rare, but I'd love it if the yellow bag had a bit more heft to it (i.e. more dice)

5) Killing a monster with a 6 lets you grab a potion. Is that only if the 6 is there in the final tally (you often reroll, swap, steal, etc.)

6) Curse - it says to add to combat to harm one hero - can it also harm a monster? IF not, when would I use it.

7) Execute - if the monster that matches the side of the execute die (with the axe showing), you automatically win. But if not, you still add the # on the dice to your total like normal, right?

8) When you get to level 6 (3 green dice) - you just stay there?

9) If you have the blue hunt dice - you can draw 2 monsters from the bag, and pick 1 to roll. Can you then swap out your equipment? (i.e. the hunt is 2-handed....and is worthless after choosing the monster. It says you can swap equipment any time except during combat...has combat begun at this point???)

10) Witch - it says "add one spell to combat" - How do we choose which spell the witch has? (do we throw the spells in the empty green bag and draw?)

11) Reach/Gust Magical Equipment - I'm unsure of what to do when you roll this. The Spear lets you roll your dice first (to see if you are incredibly weak) before combat. But the Gust part of it rerolls everything. Do you use the spear part of the spell first, then roll the monster, then see if you want to use the gust? (are you required to at that point??)

12) Execute (again) - if you roll an execute 2 dice, and you are facing a level 2 bat, do you immediately kill it? Or do you then roll the bat's gust?

Thanks!

[Sam Coates]

1-Killing a monster awards one experience.  3 experience equal 1 level, and the hero gains a level die.  You described using the dice correctly, but just used different names.  The new rules will need to have pictures of each die for clarity.

2-When "tangle" is on an equipable item, it becomes a whip.  So yes.

3-Yes, unless you trade it with another player.

4-Initially we tested 10 artifacts, but a few did not make the cut.  I would like to add more as well. 

5-Correct.  Sometimes you may risk NOT rerolling a six because you want the potion.

6-It cannot harm monsters.  You may use it at any time to stop another player from winning a combat.

7-Correct.

8-Correct, except for the termonology. (6 experience=Level three)

9-You cannot swap after this point.  "Only one set of equipment may be used per player turn"

10-The first player to the active player's left who is NOT in combat chooses.  In a two player game, it is fairly logical.  For example, fire only goes up to 4 points.  Gust can reset the most horrible of rolls, and drain works well if their lowest die is high.

11-You are not required to activate Gust.  You may wait until you are losing.

12-Once the monster has been executed, it cannot activate abilities.  Actually, though, I kind of like the idea of "execute" acting last.  It would balance it out a little better. 

[Sam Coates]

And a question for you:

 

You have three five-year-olds?

[binarysunrise]

Thanks for all the answers. We'll try this again tomorrow on game #3 (well, technically they already played game #3 without me, and taught it to my dad - "So simple a 5 year old can play" could be a slogan....). And yes, triplets. We just got them actively into board games this winter. Flash point is another favorite of theirs, but as they are working on adding sums, I figured this dice game would be great.

[Devaliant]

Does anyone besides me find the artifact axe too powerful? We´ve had players pull this axe and then cookie-cut monsters for fame.

Dev

[griffinppatterson]

I can see how it could be, but I've not seen any fame be gained from using it yet.

[Devaliant]

Maybe it was a glitch in the matrix. We had a black and red monster killed almost in sequence, bagging a very easy victory.

[griffinppatterson]

I've had games last near an hour with the winner aching to get the last artifact to win. in most 4 player games, 3 players get a red trophy, but not many...

[Sam Coates]

Devaliant - I believe you're right.  the other axes were nerfed, but this one escaped because it is an artifact.

 

Griffinppatterson - The current plan is to make the sixth side of the experience tracker red, indicating that six experience nets one fame.  Ideally, it will reduce the length of extreme games.  But it needs to be tested.

 

Still, I'm curious about the rarity of red trophies in your group.  Is it that players have trouble getting assistance if a trophy is on the line? 

[griffinppatterson]

No, it's just a lack of rolling reds and blacks. Shear luck, really. I seem to roll the treasure face a fair bit, while rolling difficult faces extremely rarely. And this is only over ~3 games.

[griffinppatterson]

It was mentioned in the rules that if a monster uses a spell, you cannot use that same spell for yourself (i.e. fireball)

a) Why not?
b) What happens if you're facing the dragon with the fire sword artifact?

[griffinppatterson]

nevermind, I figured it out based on the new rulebook. If both the monster and I have the same spell available, it is rolled for neither as we are both immune to such a spell. However, if I don't roll the fireball on my fire sword, he may still hit me with a fireball.

[potluckgames]

Heroes don't get immunity, only monsters.  For example, if you are fighting a dragon with a fire sword, and you roll your fire symbol, you do not get to add the fire die to your damage.

 

This was a simple solution based on two facts.  First, there is only one fire spell die, which cannot be present in both dice pools.  Second, we wanted some basic immunity mechanic anyway.  The fire elemental should not be hurt by a fire spell.

[Devaliant]

I am returning to one of my "stick-horses" (hee hee Norwegian expression); the fact that the game feels a bit like "we all play our separate games and see who´s lucky".

I´m sure this doesn´t apply to all groups, but mine will rarely help out others unless there´s a pretty sizeable reward. It might change.

To counter this, I would suggest an alternate rules section in the rulebook. I like having such a section to allow hard-core gamers to tweak the rules over your family-friendly games. 

As the description in the rules go, it should be a bit about backstabbing. I suggest this as an alternate rule:

Backstabbers Bohnanza:

During combat, a player may choose to roll ONE level die of his own to backstab the player in combat. This die is suffered as a wound for the player who chose to do backstab. The die can be manipulated just like any other.

Alternatively add: A player cannot backstab with his last level die. (This is to prevent players to run their dice number down since they are going to rest anyway.)

What do you think? I will add this effect in my next game and test it.

Dev

[potluckgames]

That does sound fun. 

[griffinppatterson]

I quite like this backstab idea. I do wonder how much longer the game would become because of it, but I like the bastardary that comes with it. Let us know how it goes :)

[Devaliant]

It will add at most -4, but on average -2ish, so perhaps not the biggest lengthener. 

And keep in mind many players won´t take a penalty unless hindering an opponent to get something out of the ordinary. You might even not heal completely, which would set you back 2 rounds. That is really nasty!

More thematic, for sure.

Dev

[potluckgames]

Why would it set you back two rounds?  You're only losing one die, correct?

[griffinppatterson]

 I think it would slow down the game a little because you have the opportunity to prevent someone winning by giving up your level die to backstab the near-winner. This would then force you to give up a turn to rest. I just worry that this would make winning the game nearly impossible as nobody will stop you killing a slime, but everyone would prevent you from getting the last fame from monsters or artifacts. Still, it looks to be a cool way to tighten the game up a little.

[potluckgames]

Yes, there would have to be some sort of limit.  Like, only one back stab per fight.  But then, players will argue over who has to throw the game to stop the lead player.  Needs some other rule I think.

[Devaliant]

Allow me to demonstrate:

John, Bob, Tom and Adolf plays a game. They all have 6 exp and 2 fame. 

John faces a monster that will give him 2 fame. The other 3 players backstab him and he fails. 

Bob then faces a monster that will give him 1 fame and an artifact. The other 3 players backstab him and he fails. 

Tom has to rest, as he has only one die left.

Adolf is forced to rest too. 

John has one die, and takes on a monster that would give him 1 fame. Bob backstabs and John takes a hit. Tom rolls to recover wounds and gets only one die back. He faces a dragon and flees. Adolf rolls a 6, replenishes all his level dice, and faces a monster with one fame and artifact. Noone can backstab him as they all burned their dice, and he wins.

Or what seems to be more accurate according to our games:

I roll a wicked roll with my items, I have spells and bomb and strength at the ready. Monster rolls poorly. All players tries to backstab once each, but they all roll low. I win.

Keep in mind; I specified that this should be an alternate rule for gamers like me and mine, who likes mayhem.

Dev

[Devaliant]

Oh and I meant that since you make a die roll to rest, you might not regain all your dice due to a bad roll, exhausting all your dice in attempts (1-4) to hinder anyone else seems like a futile strategy when there´s 3 people to backstab...

[seb.borchert]

What idf you have to backstab before the combat is finished.... you have to ask for assistance before combat, so why don´t let the monstre do so too ;-)

[Devaliant]

I´ve been playing a bit with my 6 year old, and I have a concern about the Skeleton Key. It´s a bit powerful especially drawn early on, I´ve rolled locked chests twice in the beginning and swooped two artifacts. Anyone else or just me? I would suggest putting a 0-0-0-1-1-1 on it do gimp it slightly.

Dev

[Michael R.]

I actually feel like it's a gimp early on. I drew it at the beginning of a game and was behind since I didn't have good equipment to start and couldn't face higher level monsters. However, as you point out it can be very good if you happen to get lucky with locked chests (which are usually behind tough monsters and thus not seen very often). What if instead of nerfing the key (which I think is an acceptable alternative) we instead have a variant where you have a "starting equipment" bag which doesn't contain the key (and perhaps some other equipment) so you are guaranteed not to draw it at the beginning and can thus only acquire it as treasure. This makes me think about perhaps an even bigger variant where players can "draft" (or just pick) equipment at the beginning of the game in order to customize their loadout to what they think might be optimal. Could be interesting if you also have the option to grab a class and/or race die instead.

[griffinppatterson]

I do slightly agree that the Key should be nerfed to half key and half not as having the key makes you a prime helper. It opens up the "I'll let you use my key if I get 1-4" whereas a lot of the time (especially in the beginning), you otherwise would not get the locked treasure at all. I personally vote for changing the key to 50%.

[matias.korman]

I agree with nerfing the key...

As for having it in the beginning...why not simply allowing a mulligan rule? Something like "if you dont like your starting weapons put them back in the bag and draw again"

[Michael R.]

I suppose the nerf + mulligan rule would work as well. I just liked the solution of initial treasure pool as it killed two birds with one stone. Though I'm still skeptical about making a key worse. It's only situationally useful to begin with.

[Devaliant]

I played with some adults again tonight, they liked it as a filler, and the randomness got to us this time. I started with armor and bow, Daniel with armor and spear, Khagman with the omnious Skeleton Key and armor. 

Not before long, they both had an artifact, FlameOn-Sword and the Executer! I drew 3 straight pots and not a single exp was given that day. We kept on rolling and had some harsh bargaining over assistance, which finally netted me the yellow DrainWhip. I must say, this die is one bad ass weapon! We complained about the Execute a bit, he actually oneshotted a lvl 4 with one fame, but then I trashed a dragon, swept the artifact, traded 5 blues and won. 

Khagman even missed an artifact with the Skeleton Key, which in total cost him the victory. And he was truly gimped in terms of damage from the go. 

Oh and Backstab for all players really is great! The cost of it means you really have to choose carefully, but it makes the whole game a bit more of a competition other than shear luck. Still taking down a rewarding monster despite other players effort to stop you is MUwHahhWHWHAhaahHWaaaaa-fun!

Dev

[Michael R.]

Since this seems to be the place to post game updates, I played this past weekend. We had two new people who joined (for a five person) game. They seemed to pick it up quickly and really enjoy it. One of our new players even won. Our only complaint is that all (or almost all) of our games have now ended with the last person acquiring their fourth fame via trading in extra equipment for an artifact. I think that, in general, being able to trade in the equipment is a great rule. It gets more artifacts on the table (which are totally awesome) and gives you a reason to haggle over equipment treasure, makes them no useless, etc. In fact, it makes me want to add even more artifacts to the game since the player won by drawing the last one. Which leads me to a question, if there are no artifacts left can you not trade in any equipment? I imagine this will be a rare situation but it's interesting to consider. My original point though was that I think you should not be allowed to win the game by trading in. You can still get a new equipment but you'd need to achieve your last fame some other way. Thoughts?

tl;dr

If you run out of artifacts can you trade in?

I think you should not be able to win the game(/acquire your last fame) via trading in your equipment for an artifact. Thoughts?