Class Dice Discussion

[mrjhaugen]

A place to discuss how to handle class dice in the game.

My suggestion:

Have them in the set aside dice.  When you would otherwise gain a hero level dice, they may instead take a class dice.

[mrjhaugen]

It would involve reworking the class dice to better reflect what's on the hero level dice, but I think it's a nice way to add the class abilities. In exchange for the ability, it has lower scores. It would also make multi-classing an interesting possibility. Also, if there was only 1 of each hero dice, you'd have an interesting competition for whatever is seen as the 'best' of course they could be traded!

[griffinppatterson]

I was thinking that the classes could be handled exactly like Munchkin. Classes might be drawn from the treasure bag, allowing players to add another dice to their collection without having to cast aside a weapon. Not sure how many times a game the classes would come up. Might require adding one or two more classes in order to ensure a fair chance at getting a class.

[matias.korman]

How about mixing the level dice and the class die?

I mean, currently the level dies has faces 1 to 6, and marks that the number of dice is 1,1,2,2,3, and 3. That is, when going from even to odd level we gain a die, but there is nothing to gain at odd levels. How about we give a special power each time?

I.e., at level 2 the warrior gains a sword icon (which is maintained at higher levels, of course). At level 4, the warrior gains a shield icon, and at level 6 he gains force of will (a new ability that allows him to ignore the bad effect of an opponent's die)

The magician at level 2 gains concentration (once per combat he/she may reroll a spell die), at level 4 a free spell per level, and at level 6 inmunity to one of his opponent's spells.

Etc, similar powers for rogue and priest

[matias.korman]

Maybe I wasn't clear, I meant that instead of using a die to track the level and another to track the class, only use one die with both properties altogether. 

At the start of the game each player gets a level die at random which cannot be changed mid-game

[Jordan Johnston]

I'd like to see them only available after you gain a level. You start out as a run of the mill citizen. Only after you've gained enough experience do you get to choose a class as well as a level dice. "Choose" in this context could be random selection or a selection from the pool, first come first serve style.

This would also allow you to add something like prestige classes, where when you reach higher levels you could "level up" inside the class as well. Just a thought.

[Jordan Johnston]

Just thought about it some more, but if you were able to choose your class as you leveled up, then  you could make better use of the treasures you've found along the way perhaps, especially dependent on what the final abilities for each class looked like.

[Lignum]

I agree. I like the idea of starting out normal and then getting a class after gaining a level or so. I can't decide if I'd rather it be random or by choice.
Perhaps, if it is random, then the next time you get enough experience to "level up" (or the game's equivalent) you forgo the level and opt to try your hand at a different class. I have not had a chance to play yet so I'm not sure to what degree this would gimp you as compared to the others playing the game. If not too great, then good because that's the consequence you face for fighting fate :P

[rogue148]

For my suggestion, the first thing would be to modify the current design of the dice.  For example, the Thief die would have the following six sides:

 

Secret Passage 1

Secret Passage 2

Secret Passage 3

Small Key 1

Small Key 2

Small Key 3

 

If the Thief's level is less than the number printed with the ability, he doesn't get to use it -- It's essentially a blank.  Thus as you advance in levels, the more likely you are to get to use a special ability with your Class die.

 

Second, every player randomly selects a class die at the beginning of the game for use throughout the game.  (For a 5p game, we'd need a 5th class, maybe something like a Paladin with a mixture of Cleric and Knight abilites?)  When a player takes a wound and he no longer has a Hero Level Die to set aside, he could be required to set aside the Class Die.

 

Alternatively, the dice could be added to the equipment bag at the beginning of the game, perhaps twice as many dice as the number of players, just so they don't detract from the number of regular equipment drawn.  When a player draws a second class die, he would be required to put one of them out of play -- his choice.  Since once you have a class, a second class die, is effectively a lost shot at a treasure (unless you really like the new class better than the one you have), slowly removing them from play would be a good thing.  For this method, I would think you'd want 2 of each of the different class dice (if there remain only 4 classes, 8 dice in the bag for a 4p or 5p game would probably be okay), then randomly determine which ones go in the bag if you're adding less than the full 2 sets.

 

 

[griffinppatterson]

My only problem with the idea that everyone gets a class is that the classes can actually be kind of powerful. They're essentially guaranteed numbers. How will that effect the difficulty of the game? I think that classes should be earned, just like weapons.

[Lignum]

I like the rogue's idea for the rehashing of the class dice with numbers with levels making you more efficient at your job.
I also was thinking of more classes as well as making it where you would never know what class you were going to get for sure (eg if all other classes were taken). This is assuming there is a different bag for class dice. I thought about multiple dice for each class, but I don't really like the idea of repeats either. So far I have two ideas concerning this:

1. There needs to be more classes always allowing for a good bit of randomness. Just a sixth class I don't think would necessarily be good enough because it would eventually be a 50/50 shot at getting what you "want". I'm thinking about 8 classes is optimal. This would obviously be a work in progress so even just one more class (a 6th for the 5 player games) would be a step towards the abundance of choices that would make the fun kind of randomness for me.
2. Dummy dice that are kind of a "fizzle." Not necessarily something bad. It just wouldn't be as cool as getting a class. Think of it as you were training but didn't quite make the cut, so you got something of a participation trophy for your efforts. Maybe a die that is 50% chance to gain an item and 50% chance to switch out a piece of equipment of your choosing. Something like this. I'm just spitballin' here :P

[Jordan Johnston]

What if they weren't numbered? What if they were kept blank on four sides? That way only a third of the time would they be active.

[Lignum]

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 6:48:58 PM UTC-5, Jordan Johnston wrote:

What if they weren't numbered? What if they were kept blank on four sides? That way only a third of the time would they be active.

I do like the idea of failures, but that's also why I kind of like Michael's idea. Less chance of failure at higher levels.

[Michael]

So how about something like

Secret Passage 2

Secret Passage 3

blank

Small Key 2

Small Key 3

blank

That way there's still always a chance for failure, and you still "grow" as you level.  Level 1s are just out of luck :).

[Michael]

or maybe:

Secret Passage 2

Secret Passage 3

blank

Small Key 1

Small Key 2

blank

That way even the lvl 1s get a little love.

[kc2dpt]

What if a player started with a class die instead of starting with a hero die?

[Sam Coates]

I like the idea of class dice replacing experience trackers, with passive abilities that improve with experience.  This would be complicated to integrate, and I think we would still want to roll something...

[seb.borchert]

Think about what you want for the Class Dice... do you want to trade them? Then you can´t get a class instead of a level die, because this would make level dice tradeable...

Thats only possible if you can get them as treasure or a seperate die may be from seperate bag...

If we would handle them like treasures we could make some epic classes to, which are put into the artifact bag, or an seperate epic class bag... so you can choose if you take a treasure or a class ; artifact or epic class...

[griffinppatterson]

Okay, am I the only one who thinks that Epic Classes would be AWESOME?! Three abilities instead of two with one being ultra boss?

[seb.borchert]

Epic classes sound awesome! So we are at least 2 ;-)

[matias.korman]

I don't think we need to add yet another type of dice, and yet another random dice bag. This will add to the production costs, increase set-up time, increase the time needed to explain the game, etc...

One of the niceness of this game is that it needs virtually no explanation to newcomers. "there you go, this tracks your level, this is your weapon, every round we draw a monster and fight it. Let me start, you see, I get a random monster and, oh! I got the ogre! I roll the dice and get ..."

So I would rather the classes have a small impact. As I suggested in a previous message they should be a passive ability you gain at even levels, and those can be tracked with the experience tracker die

[griffinppatterson]

I don't understand how epic classes would add complexity? In my mind, they would simply be added to the Artifact bag and simply have better skills.

I think it might be good to ask whether people think that you should only be able to possess one class at a time or if you can own two classes and choose which one you want active before battle?

The problems with having 2 classes at a time is that if you have a key, a power hitter class (Knight?) and a Thief class, you can switch over to the thief when you draw a monster that has a treasure chest (unlocked) in hopes of turning it into a locked chest. I feel that is abusing the power a bit.

The problem with having 1 class at a time is that if you draw a new class and you don't want it, you effectively waste that treasure. Unless, of course, people want to allow you to draw a new treasure (which I think it too complex to explain well in the rules)

[Lignum]

I think that 1 class at a time is best. I also think classes should have pitfalls as well, not just make you better. Granted it would have to be a small pitfall or a small chance, depending on how you represent the negative effect (eg in the rules or on one side of the class dice), else people would rather just not have a class.

Most of the things we're thinking of may not add too much complexity, but I did like the game the way it was first presented to us so I don't want to go too far beyond that. The reason being is it would be easier to get new people (especially ones I don't know at a local comic shop or something since I don't have many friends, much less ones that would play with me :D ) to learn the game before getting it in their minds that they're bored with it. So this is what I've been trying to keep in mind. Making personal dice and creating house rules would be good enough for me as long as the base game stayed simple enough (not to say I wouldn't want new stuff in there! Just without adding too many more rules to read to the base set) and then the more "complex" stuff added as expansions.

Decided where that line of complexity is is another matter. Or I suppose after you find that line you could just create an optional section to remove certain dice from play and you could add them in later when people got the hang of it. A couple of the games I've bought and played recently have that "basic rules" option or walkthrough section to keep you from getting bogged down.

I'm rambling. Just a few ideas ^_^

[griffinppatterson]

I think if everyone gets a class, there should be a critical miss or some type of blunder roll. However, if they are treasures, they essentially have a trade off of getting a class that only provides a 2/6 positive effect for a weapon or some other item that is essentially a 5/6 or 6/6 positive effect. Treasures don't come up too often for players, so while classes are good, they are only win-wins if the player is already equipped to the teeth.

As for the ever growing complexity of the game, I think you're right that adding too much becomes a game so diverse that you'll need a chart of the moves at all times as well as a constant reference to the rule book. That said, I don't mind these dice being expansion items for the more advanced players. Not every die we come up with has to be in the base game. Just like in Munchkin, they say that you should leave the expansions out until everyone has a firm grasp of the current rules. But I know that I play "the more the better." Classes were meant to be an expansion, as were epic bosses. I just want the expansions to be as robust as possible because there's nothing worse than buying an expansion and only getting like 10 new cards.

[Sam Coates]

Classes ARE part of an expansion.  This expansion will likely add races, new spells, and traps as well.

 

So the expansion is specifically designed for those players who DO want more complexity. 

 

 

[matias.korman]

I see,

So budgetwise, It would be fine to add 2-3 dice per class? Say the mage has his own spell, etc? likewise for races?

[Sam Coates]

I think an expansion would be a bit boring without some new symbols to learn, but you also want to make sure there aren't too many.  Nothing is set in stone.

 

Let's say there are four races, four classes, two new spells, two traps, five new pieces of equipment, a new one-use item, and a couple new monsters.  That's twenty dice.  This is just hypothetical, but how many dice would you look for in an expansion?

[griffinppatterson]

Given the fact that the base game is 33 unique dice plus 8 stretch monsters, I'd say 10-15 dice is a pretty big expansion, whether unique or not.

[binarysunrise]

It might take a bit of reworking but what about this....

It was mentioned before that it'd be interesting if everyone started at the peasant level, and gained a class upon leveling up. Is there any way to use the treasures acquired, monsters killed, and skill level to dictate which class you level up into? 

I.e. let the randomness of the beginning confrontations in the game dictate which class track you're going to take.  Looking at what you've done when you initially level up, you might become an apprentice magician. Which then leads eventually to being a powerful mage towards the end of the game. Your opponent might have the combination that leads to being an apprentice knight, etc.

[Jordan Johnston]

I see it working out this way.

At the start of  the game, you are a peasant. Keep the starting equipment as is. One level dice, two equipment dice.

The first time you level up, you take a second level dice, and a class dice. It can either be randomly selected from the pool, or chosen. I think random would lead to hilarity (mage with a 2-H axe), while chosen would be more strategic.

The second time you level up, you take a third level dice, and EITHER  a second class dice, or a prestige/epic class dice. In this case I see epic classes having prerequisites:
Mage -> Archmage
Knight -> Paladin
Rogue ->  Ninja/Assassin (etc.)

This would provide you the option to multi-class, i.e. choosing a second class die, or specializing, choosing the epic dice to match your current class. This would require say 10 class dice, to allow for multi-classing, and 5-10 epic class dice.

The hitch here is, I would leave each class/epic-class dice with only two successes. The other four are blank. This way  it doesn't impact the core mechanics too much. At  the same time, the class abilities can be a little more extravagant because of the limited chance to roll them. 

There's another advantage to this as well. Early on you will be a weak peasant, which encourages co-op play in the early rounds. As the game progresses, and I level up, the game becomes every man for himself as my chances for rolling class abilities on goes up.

I think I would lock each player at a maximum of two class dice, epic or core. I figure by the time you reach the third level you should be near end game anyways, so there's no need to increase beyond two.

[Sam Coates]

This is well thought.  I think you should start with one treasure and one class die, instead of two treasures.  You woudl start a little weaker, but treasures would be more valuable.

[matias.korman]

Hmmm, this idea sounds nice. How about the following:

You start with a treasure die and a RACE die. Race should give you a minor benefit, but not as good as a second weapon

Upon reaching level 2 you get a CLASS die. Class dice have 2 faces that do good things and 4 empty faces, or 2 good faces + 1 great face + 1 drawback face

Upon reaching level 4 you can either become a master at your class or earn a second class. Master dice have 4 good faces and 2 empty faces, or similar results

Upon reaching level 6 you...well, who cares at this point? ;)

Another option would be to earn classes as reward for some monsters. In either case you should be able to choose rather than random

[kc2dpt]

> There's another advantage to this as well. Early on you will be a weak peasant, which encourages co-op play in the early rounds. As the game progresses, and I level up, the game becomes every man for himself

I find in the current game this is what actually happens. As you get closer to endgame people are more cautious to help each other as everyone is getting close to victory.

[Jordan Johnston]

I like the idea of starting with an equipment dice and a race dice, rather than a class dice. I really like the notion of being a peasant first. Just a thought.

Though, if you start with a race dice, it should be similar to a level dice. Maybe 4 numbers, a boost, and a negative.

[binarysunrise]

Continuing on my idea. I haven't fully fleshed it out yet, but I still am enamored with the idea that the beginning of the game (the initial dice you draw, and your initial monster encounter) dictating your class route for the rest of the game. For example:

You start off as a peasant.

You grab 2 treasure dice.

You face your first monster.

From the results of your first attack, plus the equipment you have, your class-route is determined: 

Thief  (owning a Key or a Shield)

Cleric (owning a Potion)

Wizard (owning a Magical Artifact)

Knight (having a Trophy or having an Execute die)

If you have results that fit in 2 class categories, you get to choose the class. If you don’t fit any, you wait until your 2^nd battle to find your class. Each of the four classes offers a slightly different class level bonus. Each additional fame increases the class level and abilities offered by the class. Clearly, Wizard and Knight classes are more powerful/desired, but odds are against you being able to choose this route.

[Lignum]

I don't know. I like the idea of starting as a basic or a novice or a peasant. Whatever you may call it, but I like the idea of drawing a class better whatever the prerequisite may be. Also it depends on if we want duplicate classes as well. I think it might be more appropriate to have the option (or a must?) to pick out the basic equipment for your class after you choose one (should you decide to). I also think that not choosing a class should be a class in itself whether it's an advanced novice or a jack-of-all-trades or something similar.

[seb.borchert]

I got an idea for class level ups...

 

Every player gets an extra brown experience die. For each fight won he may choose either to get a regular experience point (on his green experience tracker) or a xp on the brown experience tracker (for the classes). On all class dice will be added a roman number which shows which brown experience is needed for the usage of the special class result. If we will allow multible classes you can add more dice on the brown experience trackers, to show if your allowed to use a second class die (like level up with normal level dice). This way you can make 6 special abilies on your class die if you wish, without getting the full advantage of the class from the beginning. It also make classes interesting for the Endgame, when you got already three green level dice...

 

Second version: Instead of using an additional brown exp. tracker, we could use the original green one, but with roman numbers at the dice for the usage level...

 

Ok free for discussion...    

[griffinppatterson]

I like the idea in theory, but as a player, I wouldn't utilise it in the way we want. Considering the fact that class XP would give you a new ability on a single die and player xp would give you an entirely new die, it makes placing the xp into levels much much more important. I'd take the chance at two sixes over the chance at a better roll any day. It would be nice for later in the game once you're at max level, but that makes classes seem much less important.

[seb.borchert]

That´s just because we have no fighting numbers for combat on the class dice, or? If we give them combat strength (like the weapons&armor do) they would become more interesting, even for getting a second class...

 

Another approach:

Sam said something about class dice as special reward... may be there can be special experience too... for example if you´re fighting together you get one extra class xp(as additional reward which can be claimed from both players as part of a tradeoff, like all other rewards), alone you won´t get class experience... makes teambuilding more interesting.  

[griffinppatterson]

It's not the fact that there are no numbers on the dice. Imagine if it's 1+ability/2+ability/3+ability/4+ability/5+ability/6+ability where every level, you unlock the ability on another number. Despite the fact that it would eventually be an ability gold mine, you would still only have the potential to do 6 damage. Whereas with level dice, you are gaining a new die with new levels, meaning you have massive damage potential, ability or not. I would much rather have extra dice instead of ability potential. But I do like the latter idea. All enemies have XP rewards, but some also have class rewards. That is possibly good.

[tri4ceswordsman]

Ok here's my idea. The class dice should be drawn from the treasure bag. However if you have drawn say 2 extra class dice then you can level your class. This could mean something as simple as you get to reroll your class once, or there could be lvl 2 only sides on the class dice with special effects. So if your only level 1 and you roll that you treat it as a blank. This could also lead to multi classing. Instead of leveling your class you trade 2 dice to have an extra class.

[griffinppatterson]

The only reason I'm personally hesitant to deck out the class dice is that the game is (theoretically) balanced before the classes and races are added. By adding races and classes, you are potentially weighting it to be easy. It should be okay with everyone having a 33% chance to get a bonus on either the class or race dice, but the second you increase the probability on either of those dice, you are effectively giving them a stacked version of a level die. I just don't want the game to get stacked into being easy. If I was good at probabilities, I think I might be able to convince people of how much the addition of another die could possibly tip things into novice mode.

[griffinppatterson]

I know someone mentioned a Bard class. Maybe his unique ability could be "song of strength" giving +1 to all dice rolls. This should be specified that it affects only level (green) dice. It would give a player a max of +3 to their roll. Alternatively, there could be a spell that does something similar to this that the bard might be able to utilise in their class. The spell might be +1/+2/+3/0/0/-1. This might give a huge +9 bonus, but also risks -3 or a fizzle. This would need a pretty severe playtesting as no spell can ever do that much damage, despite it's 17% chance of happening. Could easily be +1/+2/+2/0/0/-1 allowing a 33% chance of a possible +6 but still fizzleable and punishable.

[Sam Coates]

We have tested out a couple classes in the equipment bag.  It did not throw off the balance.  Essentially, the dice are weak enough that it may be a good thing to draw one or it may be a bad thing. 

[griffinppatterson]

Why would it be a bad thing? Was everyone sufficiently happy with the idea that they might be able to take on a class?

[casu.gianluca]

I think we should completely rethink the idea of "Class" and go instead with the concept of "Profession". This will allow us to max level a class and be able to start another one without it getting Awkward in terms of logic.

[griffinppatterson]

I think all the people who think that classes should be upgradeable should go into a little more detail to me. I just think it's majorly complex and adds a whole degree of difficulty to learning the game as well as making it highly possibly OP.

[Lignum]

Yeah. I think classes should offer a bonus, possibly a downside if they're optional to a degree since you're making that choice. But going beyond that is making it more RPG-like which isn't necessarily bad but I think it's taking away from the semi-simplicity of the game. Even thought I will definitely want more from the game and expansions which would of course add complexity to understanding, I don't want the game to feel like it's starting to get bogged down.

[Devaliant]

I have an idea about the classes.

If you release knight, barbarian, troll, magician, thief and Swede (sorry ran out of ideas) you could have the knight barbarian troll able to use all weapons but no spells, and the squishies able to use only 1H but also spells. 

I really like the idea of gaining exp/ class xp on an alternating or chosen rate. Implementing class restrictions could spur some changes.

Trade. There isn´t enough trade today imho: players hug their blue dice for artifact swapping, and red dice to boost themselves or lay hurt on other players when it matters. 

Not choosing class. This allows for a bigger selection of equipment, but denies some abilities. I can actually see myself without class (hurr hurr) to have playability.

Dev

[Sam Coates]

This gives me an idea.  We've talked about class dice gaining abilities with level.  What if they gain abilities with equipment.  "This ability only works if you are equipped with a two-handed weapon."  "This ability only works if you have a 1-handed weapon in each hand."

 

This would encourage trading and class-specific equipment.  It doesn't allow for you classless idea though.  Unless there were restrictions?  A wizard may have two sides of his class die that penalize him if he's wearing armor.

 

I would need to make sure this could all be done very simply.

[Sam Coates]

[griffinppatterson]

Right... So we were having a discussion the race thread (sorry) about using multiple class dice to represent levels and allowing players to choose them over the accepting of experience and treasure. The original idea is found below:

"What if class leveling didn't use experience at all? What if, instead of leveling your hero, you could pick another class from the dice bag. The upside of it is that you are now a level two class (opening up the use of the level 2 dice face) and you have a second class level that you could throw. The downside is that you can only be one class. If you start with a barbarian class and draw a knight class, you are level two but you can't be both a barbarian and a knight. This would up trading and it would still be relatively balanced because you are sacrificing a treasure and an experience point for a class die.

For Example:

You just beat a level 2 Ghoul as a level 2 [race] with five experience. You can either A) pick a treasure and go up to level 3 (with six experience) or B) pick another class die from the class bag and stay at level 2 (with five experience). You are currently a level 1 Knight and you decide to go with option B. You, unfortunately draw a mage class. You are know a level 2 Knight or Level 2 Mage, but you may only roll one of these classes in your next combat. It seems, however that player 2 is a level one Mage with a shiny artifact that he can't really use since he can't use two handed weapons. You can offer to trade him your Mage die for his weapon. In this case, you would remain a level 1 Knight, making him a level 2 Mage. Or, he could also trade you his mage die for your knight die (allowing him to use the two handed weapon). This would make you a level 2 Mage and him a Level 1 Knight.

Additionally, with this system, the dice could technically be different. Some mage dice may have a variety of spells on them. The only solid is that each dice has faces that contain levels. What is on each level might be different. It might be possible to have a die that is moderately weak, but has a different color images, meaning that by having that class die, you get +1 Fame.

The only thing this leaves to want is the question of what to do with Races."

The problem that was raised by Seb was that each die technically represents an experience point. This means that players will be more led to take class die upon reaching hero level 3 because they physically can't take any more experience and would thus have lost potential. My idea behind this is that the strategy of waiting until hero level 3 is a big risk. Another player might have obtained enough fame before you had the opportunity to gamble in for the potential of four class dice and ultimate power. Obviously this idea would need some playtesting as I don't think anyone would ever reach level four with four same-class dice, but I do think it possible to get four class dice of different classes allowing you to utilize the level four face of a single class while only rolling one or two dice. My main hope for this is to encourage trading a lot more. To really become powerful, you would need to trade for the right classes. And it won't always be the case that you will have the right classes to do a class for class trade. Often you will need to give up some unused equipment that you were hoping to trade in for an artifact. This would give another player the steps to trade in for an artifact and you the steps to become a class-lord. The fact that you are effectively trading away an experience point is something you must consider as it would make the class die more valuable. But that doesn't mean that a player can trade in his class die for an experience and a treasure.

I also think that it would be cool if there were a dunce class in the class bag that would freeze your use of classes for a turn. Or this could be a one use die.

[Devaliant]

I had a thought about the whole classes discussion.

How about having class dice drawn from a bag, and let them be one-use?

Let me elaborate:

Adolf has 4 exp, and gains another one. He decides to draw a Class die instead of flipping hero level die. He draws from the bag, a Knight.

The Knight class die has a 0-1-1-1-2-3 setup, which will allow him to use his armor ability 0-1-2-3 times when used. 

In his next fight, he faces a crazy ghost that rolls 6-6. Being ridiculously underpowered, he decides to give his class a go, since he has got one armor up.

He rolls the Knight Armor, and behold; a 3! He can now reroll monster dice 3 times! He rerolles the sixes, but they turn out to be 6-4, still too much. He uses one last reroll and punches the 6 to a 3, making it a tie. He barely makes it, but suffers one wound and the spent class die to his "discard" (what can we call this?) and decides to pull another Class die. Since he´s already a Knight, he will have to find one of the 3 remaining Knight Class dice in the bag. He quickly pulls 4 dice in a row until he reveals the Steadfast Knight, a die that has a 0-0-1-1-2-2 setup, which may allow him to regain 0-1-2 wounds after losing a fight.

When he´s gathered all 4 of these dice, he will be a Famous Knight, rewarded one fame. If he decides that he doesn´t like these two dice, he can 

(undecided here)

at the start of his turn discard all his Class dice and draw ONE new from the bag which cannot be the same class he was

or

at the next victory discard his Class dice and randomly pull the exact same number of (or one less die?) class dice in which cannot be the same class he was

The kicker here is that Class Abilities are useables, think Stamina/ Mana/ Energy consumption in your regular RPG.

You actually have to rest to regain them, and if you´ve spent all 4, you cannot even refresh them all in a single rest, so you have to choose wisely. Heal dice also gets more use. I´ve used one, ONCE, and to heal a single wound...

For the already-infamous Devaliants Alternative Corner you should add a rule like this:

If you are a Famous Knight/ Barbarian/ Thief/ Magi/ Berzerker/ blah/ blah/ blah, you only achieve one fame for it if you have all 4 dice replenished in your inventory.

I was proud when my brain conceived that!

Dev

[Devaliant]

....aaaand you could easily have more classes added in either stretch goals or as micro expansions, having 4 dice in a pack for $5-10 smells like profit. 

You could treat Race dice in the same way, but probably not have them exhaustable, just a persistant, small effect at random. And I´m thinking no fame, just flavor.

Dev

[Devaliant]

I´ve had some good beer, my brain is on fire. Might as well just let it pour.

These are spinoffs from the prior posts about class, die is exhausted after use and replenished after resting.

Magi Class dice:

Furios Casting

0-1-1-1-2-3 setup

The magi is allowed to choose 0-1-2-3 spells to add to this combat

Ample Magic

0-1-1-1-2-3 setup

The magi is allowed to use the effect of 0-1-2-3 of the red dice currently on the table amongst all players. 

Spell Shield

0-1-1-1-2-2 setup

The magi can use one piece of his own, already rolled armor 0-1-2 times over. 

Power over mind

0-1-1-1-2-3 setup

Suffering a wound, the magi can use 0-1-2-3 ACTIVE hero level dice of ONE targetted hero in this combat. Cannot be rerolled by abilities. (Most powerful in late game, and can fail. Must be a rested hero)

Knight Class dice

Knight Armor

0-1-1-1-2-2 setup

The Knight may use one successfully rolled armor 0-1-2-2 more times in this fight.

Stoic Knight

1-1-1-2-2-2 setup

Suffering a wound, the Knight may recover 1-2 wounds after losing a fight. (which basically means "try and see if you can come out unharmed)

Shield Slam

0-1-1-2-2-3 setup

The Knight slams a monster, decreasing the value of one of its die by 0-1-2-3

Ready Weapons

1-1-1-1-2-2 setup

The Knight may reroll his weapons and armor 1-2 times. All dice of that sort must be rerolled every time.

Berzerker Class dice

Weapons´ Flurry

0-1-1-2-2-3 setup

Every active weapon adds 0-1-2-3 damage each. (will inspire 1H use)

Mad Charge

1-1-2-2-3-4 setup

Suffering a wound, the Berzerker charges in, weapons drawn, and inflict 1-2-3-4 damage. (will always add damage but at a cost)

Adrenaline

0-0-0-0-1-3 setup

The Berzerker goes into adrenaline rage, adding 0-1-3 damage to each level dice. (may add no damage or great damage)

Throw

0-0-1-1-1-2 setup

The Berzerker may throw 1-2 blade or blunt weapons in addition to the ones equipped at the enemy. Cannot be rerolled by abilities.

Thoughts? Ideas for more classes?

Dev

[griffinppatterson]

Let me preface by saying that I think this is a really cool idea. I personally love the idea that these are one use dice that don't get thrown away, but placed aside until you can recover them. Additionally, I like that the dice are all different (though that will dramatically increase the price dilemma). However, it does raise several questions. How will you treat multiclassing? Is it even statistically realistic for people to get all four of one class? Can they be traded? How will it effect the likelihood of victory if someone has let's say 5 class dice to use? These are all fairly trivial questions, but I feel they are important. I am in no way slagging off this idea. I personally think that it's the best yet.

Some ideas for dice:

Sword/Spear/Bow/Axe/Hammer/Whip - Player may roll all the weapons owned of shown die face (finally, a benefit for unequipped items)

0-1-1-2-2-3 Player may reduce opponent's total 0/1/2/3 points (equivalent to backstab)

Key/Key/Nothing/Nothing/Nothing/Nothing - Usable to try and open locked chests (Thief class mix between older idea and skeleton key)

Flee/Flee/Gust/Gust/Nothing/Nothing - Able to run from battle without taking damage or reroll entire battle hoping for better result (thief class)

Summon/Summon/Summon/Summon/Summon/Summon - Draw new monster and roll if face is same color as Summon die, add level to hero's damage (mage class) (might be underpowered)

Just a few ideas. I personally like this quite a bit though. Hopefully we can hash out some real classes. I would say that for the sake of this idea, we stick primarily to classes and work out races through other means.

[Devaliant]

I tried to explain it but for clarification: If you are Knight class and choose to evolve with another die, could just have those dice in front of you, shuffle them in your hand and drop one. Or have someone else hold them and draw one. No need for bag. 

If you want to change class, pick up all dice of classes that are not picked by anyone, shake and drop one. That´s your new class. Including or excluding your previous class is open for discussion. Also if you trade in 3 class dice, how many should you get in return? 

Multi-classing wasn´t on my mind, tbh I´d rather force people to specialize. Let´s not make Munchkin Dice here.

I´m guessing most people would stay with their class if they are balanced about right.

 

The thief dice looks good, I would perhaps name it Vanish instead of Flee, and since Gust is a spell use a more "physical" name, like Swift Feet or something about repositioning for a new battle?

The summon idea is perhaps called for, but the mechanic is a bit too random. 

I think the Class dice also has to be an addition rather than raw power, they could otherwise become the preferred choice over level dice. If they affect level dice however, this solves itself.

Dev

[Michael R.]

Just want to throw my two cents in here and say that the summoner mechanic sounds awesome. What about including a backstab mechanic for one of the class dice?

[Devaliant]

Since noone uses class abilities out of turn, it seems a bit overpowered to have the backstab in one char alone. If it had a cost to it, suddenly it´s a liability to be that char because now you´re expected to obstruct players "because you can".

One possibility is that the ability actually lets the player backstab someone he´s already in combat with, to prevent a victory. This won´t happen much however... 

I would rather give that ability to everyone with a cost to it, so it would more commonly done. It won´t pay off to do it all the time, but when called for. 

For the summoner you could have it an automatic success, draw a monster from the bag, roll it and add its level to your combat sum. The average level is low, but it´s a guaranteed hit.

Dev

[Michael R.]

Ah, that's a very good point. I didn't even think about it. So is backstab meant to be in the primary game or just a variant? I am hesitant to have everyone able to do it as I think the game is at a nice level of competition without making it feel like you're just trying to screw whoever is winning. If someone is facing a tough monster you may do something to stop them but in general the game is relatively friendly, which I enjoy. This in opposition to Munchkin which I feel just devolves into a game of screw everyone else over.

Using monster level seems like a good idea to scale power appropriately but I'm not sure about auto-success since almost all the other class die have some chance of failure. Though I suppose it isn't a huge deal, that small risk of failure may balance it a bit. Perhaps make it a 5/6?

[Devaliant]

I initially meant for the backstab to be in the alternate section, for the same reasons you mention. It´s mainly to address the players that want more competition in the game rather than luck.

The summon spell could be nerfed a bit no problem, perhaps even given to a new class?
I´ll introduce the new Channeler; with abilities churned out by it´s father, Michael! Can you make 3 more, and include one that will inflict a wound to use?

Summon Beast
0-0-1-1-1-1
If successful, summon a monster, roll the die and add its level to your total.

?Dev?

[griffinppatterson]

That's probably a better use of the summoner. I think the probability of the original summon is a bit too spread. Probability of finding it + probability of finding a monster with those colors + probability of both dice rolling that color = <0% probability. Shall we hash out 20 dice to playtest? Let's say 4 for each class. Warrior, Thief, Mage, Cleric, Berzerker?

[Michael R.]

It seems we already have four dice fleshed out for the Warrior (the Knight above), the Mage, and the Berzerker from Dev's post. Griff has already put in some work to add new classes. Is there anyway we can combine those ideas to make new classes or should we place some of the old abilities? Perhaps Cleric could be some mix of Summoner & Flee/Gust (some sort of divine spell power even though it was meant for a Thief). The Thief could have the key class die and maybe the extra equipment one as well (the justification being a thief is either lucky with weapons or well trained with a certain type). In the meantime I'll try and think of some more abilities to supplement these.

[griffinppatterson]

I had a rogue idea for the thief (get it? Rogue idea?!? Huh? Huh?!) that might combine the crappy original idea of summon but for treasures. Potionx2/Potionx2/Treasurex2/Treasurex2/Lockedx2/nothing. This way, when you get a treasure, you may roll the dice for the small chance to get double. Would you risk it on a locked chest?

[griffinppatterson]

Thief:

Double Treasure - Chance to get extra treasure upon victory (note, double locked needs two keys or a successful skeleton roll twice)

Potion*2 | Potion*2 | Chest*2 | Chest*2 | Locked*2 | Nothing

Hunt - May reroll monster level or search for new monster entirely

Reroll | Reroll | Reroll | Hunt | Hunt | Nothing

Lockpick - Much like the skeleton key

Key | Key | Key | Nothing | Nothing | Nothing

Sneak - Flee from battle

Flee | Flee | Flee | Flee | Fail | Fail

Knight:

A Helping hand - borrow someone else's level dice to help your own battle

Borrow | Borrow | Borrow | Borrow | Fail | Fail

Shield Bash - Extra damage from equipped shields

DMG*2 | DMG*2 | DMG*3 | Nothing | Nothing | Nothing

Knight Armor - Adds extra shield rerolls to your fight

Shield | Shield | Shield | Shield*2 | Shield*2 | Nothing

Ready Weapons - Adds extra sword rerolls to your fight

Sword | Sword | Sword | Sword | Sword*2 | Sword*2 

Cleric:

Heal - recovers wounds (dice recovered during turn can be used in battle)

1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3

Doom - Monster dies unless one of it's dice is rolled the same face as Doom

1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3

Circle of Protection - Makes you immune to spells

Gust | Gust | Fire | Fire | Drain | Drain

Burning Weapons - target equipment is infused with fire spell

Sword / Axe / Hammer / Shield / Bow / Spear

Mage:

Summon - Draw a monster, roll monster and add to battle

Summon | Summon | Summon | Summon | Fail | Fail

Counterspell - Negate spells used by monster

Counter | Counter | Counter | Counter | Fail | Fail

Ample Magic - The magi is allowed to use the effect of 0-1-2-3 of the red dice currently on the table amongst all players (red die must be present)

0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2

Furious Casting - Allows the mage to use extra magic (spells must not already be used)

0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2

Berserker:

Weapons´ Flurry - Every active weapon adds extra damage. (will inspire 1H use)

0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2

Throw - May add additional weapons to combat despite being fully equipped

0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2

Adrenaline - Adds damage to each hero die

0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2

Fury  - Adds additional damage die to the battle

1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 4

Possible Others:

Knight: Strength - Strength Potion

1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3

Knight: Call to Arms - Force someone to join into battle for free

Success | Success | Fail | Fail | Fail | Fail

Mage: Bound Weapon - May add an additional unequipped weapon to battle

Summon | Summon | Summon | Summon | Fail | Fail

I know I nerfed a few of Dev's good ideas, but the strength of some of them were a bit high. The fact that you could absolutely trounce a full dragon with all four class dice ruins the luck aspect of the game. I know the probability of having all dice and getting the best rolls is low, but these should add flavor to the game more than damage. Also, I felt it was best to start low with the numbers on the die and come to the conclusion "I never saw a point in using this die because it was too weak" or "this die NEVER helped me. Ever" rather than "I won the game simply because I have this die."

Let me know if anyone has any problems with these selections for each class? I think it's a pretty complete list. Every single one is unique and will make for a great addition.

In terms of multi-classing. The obtaining of multiple different classes is fine, in my opinion. However, you may not roll the class abilities of two different classes in a single turn. You may, however change classes in between turns. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this as you may simply use all your knight dice and then, while they are out of play, you may use your cleric dice, and then rest and recover them all the next turn.

An Alternative method would be as follows: 

-If you choose to draw a class die rather than leveling up, you select a die from the class dice bag. 

-If the class does not match with your current class, you may see if someone is willing to trade with you. 

-This trade can be anything (equipment, treasure, fame or other classes). 

-If nobody is willing to trade, that die is left outside of the bag and may not be used by anyone (since you cannot use it yourself due to being another class and since nobody else was willing to trade). 

-When another person chooses to gain a class die instead of leveling up, they may either take the class die that is sat aside or choose to take one from within the bag.

[Devaliant]

I'm really happy you liked my idea for the class dice, keep evolving and nerfing them :)

I mentioned earlier that I think you should have to refresh, or heal, class dice just like wounds. This means if you roll a 6 with a monster level die, you can pick up 2 hero level dice and one exhausted class die. This way, if you blow all 4 dice to attempt a fight, you will be behind for a while longer. Price to pay.
I also think you should have one slightly stronger ability for each class requiring a wound to spend. This adds flavor and strategy.
You could make this an alternate rule in my section. (shameless, I know)

Being able to roll someone's level dice is SO overpowered late in the game, we need some number crunching to smooth this out. Roll chance vs average benefit of the ability. I think a Knight should have lower benefit but higher chance, rather than the reckless Berzerker who more often misses but hits hard when he does. It's a matter of choosing class.

The possibility to trade the class you pull is both great and a bit meh. It's great for simplifying the game for family friendliness. I would (and will!) make an Alternate Rule (gasp!) that you can only be one class and redraw, and 4 of a class will award Fame. This way it adds playability but not much more play time.
You can then rely on hero level and equipment alone or spend time on class build options. I see two ways to victory here.

At work atm, so more later on.

Dev

[griffinppatterson]

real quick, just wanted to explain that A Helping Hand borrows a player's level die (singular). This would be much less overpowered this way. Alternatively, it could be:

A Helping Hand - Borrows Level dice or equipment

Equipment | Equipment | Level Die | Level Die | Fail

This way you can utilize artifacts 33% of the time.

[potluckgames]

I like where this is going.  Currently, it seems to me that the class dice will make the game easier.  What do you guys think it the class expansion was intended to make the game easier, and the dungeon expansion makes it harder.  If you buy both, it evens out.

 

I don't think I like the idea personally, but I thought I'd toss it out.

[griffinppatterson]

Also, I agree that the dice should be healed by the same method as wounds, though I don't understand what you mean with a monster rolling a 6. You may rest to restore 1-3 dice (might be better to make it 1-2 = one dice 3-4 = two dice 5 = three dice and 6 = four dice) or use healing potions. NOTE: The cleric may not use his/her heal ability to recover skill dice.

I do like the idea of the advanced die costing you a wound to use, but I think the weighting for it is very delicate and thus I'll mull over some ideas for dice like those.

[Devaliant]

I meant exactly what you said; when you restore your wounds, you have to roll for it. You roll a monster level die, and replenish accordingly. 

Then this wont be even remotely possible without a heal potion: 

"I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this as you may simply use all your knight dice and then, while they are out of play, you may use your cleric dice, and then rest and recover them all the next turn."

If this is changed to upto 4, you will see much more use of the class dice all together, making a tough kill much easier! 

I really feel that people should be forced to think "What class dice should I prioritize compared to my items and how many level dice I have?

The issue now at hand is that if a class die on average adds more damage than level dice, the latter  will be left to rot, which brings up this scenario:

Tom simply spends all experience on class dice, and skips level dice all together. This way he never suffers wounds and they add more power anyway.

Solution? Tom, who lost a combat, will have to "wound" one of his class dice instead. 

Sam; 

I think you could manage play time by adding in the rulebook that an expansion increases fame required to win by one, if desired. This will allow more of the game to be explored, but more rounds of killing naught-yielding mobs.

I would like to see fame added for a fully specced knight, which would somewhat negate the "5 fame to win" issue again.

For the commercial value, the game should be overall easy to grasp, and you can enhance play experience with rules settings for those who want it. If the game is easily manageable for younglings, it will probably appeal to more people. I simply love games that you can scale yourself, in my group we always tweak with house rules where they seem fit. 

Dev

[Devaliant]

On Friday, March 15, 2013 12:18:43 PM UTC+1, griffinppatterson wrote:

Thief:

Double Treasure - Chance to get extra treasure upon victory (note, double locked needs two keys or a successful skeleton roll twice)

The double key seems a bit harsh, given the 1/6 chance and that you have to occupy a class die with this? Other than that I LOVE the idea! The more unique they are, classes will be fun to explore. 

Potion*2 | Potion*2 | Chest*2 | Chest*2 | Locked*2 | Nothing

Hunt - May reroll monster level or search for new monster entirely

Reroll | Reroll | Reroll | Hunt | Hunt | Nothing

Lockpick - Much like the skeleton key

Key | Key | Key | Nothing | Nothing | Nothing

Sneak - Flee from battle

Flee | Flee | Flee | Flee | Fail | Fail

Knight:

A Helping hand - borrow someone else's level dice to help your own battle

Borrow | Borrow | Borrow | Borrow | Fail | Fail

This is a nice touch, but seems a bit high, gain upto 12 dmg in one smack. I would rather have borrow "1-1-2-2-2-3 dice"

Shield Bash - Extra damage from equipped shields

DMG*2 | DMG*2 | DMG*3 | Nothing | Nothing | Nothing

Knight Armor - Adds extra shield rerolls to your fight

Shield | Shield | Shield | Shield*2 | Shield*2 | Nothing

Ready Weapons - Adds extra sword rerolls to your fight

Sword | Sword | Sword | Sword | Sword*2 | Sword*2 

Cleric:

Heal - recovers wounds (dice recovered during turn can be used in battle)

1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3

Doom - Monster dies unless one of it's dice is rolled the same face as Doom

1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3

Another great idea, but I think each side should perhaps have two numbers on it? 1-2/1-2/3-4/3-4/5-6/5-6? Otherwise it will be the new execute. 

Circle of Protection - Makes you immune to spells

Gust | Gust | Fire | Fire | Drain | Drain

Burning Weapons - target equipment is infused with fire spell

Sword / Axe / Hammer / Shield / Bow / Spear

If this will be viable to use, I would again have two weapons on each side, seeing how a 2H weapon will have a very small damage to proc. Unless you want to have it static, aka "Imbue weapon? The cleric could then equip the weapon class that he happened to imbue. 

 

Mage:

Summon - Draw a monster, roll monster and add to battle

Summon | Summon | Summon | Summon | Fail | Fail

This has a bit low output. What about one or two sides summon two monsters? 

Counterspell - Negate spells used by monster

Counter | Counter | Counter | Counter | Fail | Fail

I think I would have this affect abilities as well, but I´m not sure. 

Ample Magic - The magi is allowed to use the effect of 0-1-2-3 of the red dice currently on the table amongst all players (red die must be present)

0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2

Furious Casting - Allows the mage to use extra magic (spells must not already be used)

0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2

Berserker:

Weapons´ Flurry - Every active weapon adds extra damage. (will inspire 1H use)

0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2

Throw - May add additional weapons to combat despite being fully equipped

0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2

Adrenaline - Adds damage to each hero die

0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2

Fury  - Adds additional damage die to the battle

1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 4

Possible Others:

Knight: Strength - Strength Potion

1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3

Knight: Call to Arms - Force someone to join into battle for free

Success | Success | Fail | Fail | Fail | Fail

Mage: Bound Weapon - May add an additional unequipped weapon to battle

Summon | Summon | Summon | Summon | Fail | Fail

The rules need to clearly state which dice can be affected by abilities (drain, armor etc) 

I know I nerfed a few of Dev's good ideas, but the strength of some of them were a bit high. The fact that you could absolutely trounce a full dragon with all four class dice ruins the luck aspect of the game. I know the probability of having all dice and getting the best rolls is low, but these should add flavor to the game more than damage. Also, I felt it was best to start low with the numbers on the die and come to the conclusion "I never saw a point in using this die because it was too weak" or "this die NEVER helped me. Ever" rather than "I won the game simply because I have this die."

Let me know if anyone has any problems with these selections for each class? I think it's a pretty complete list. Every single one is unique and will make for a great addition.

In terms of multi-classing. The obtaining of multiple different classes is fine, in my opinion. However, you may not roll the class abilities of two different classes in a single turn. You may, however change classes in between turns. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this as you may simply use all your knight dice and then, while they are out of play, you may use your cleric dice, and then rest and recover them all the next turn.

An Alternative method would be as follows: 

-If you choose to draw a class die rather than leveling up, you select a die from the class dice bag. 

-If the class does not match with your current class, you may see if someone is willing to trade with you. 

-This trade can be anything (equipment, treasure, fame or other classes). 

-If nobody is willing to trade, that die is left outside of the bag and may not be used by anyone (since you cannot use it yourself due to being another class and since nobody else was willing to trade). 

-When another person chooses to gain a class die instead of leveling up, they may either take the class die that is sat aside or choose to take one from within the bag.

Is there any way someone can draw up some graphics for these dice? I cannot for the love of my life do artsy stuff on computers... I have the dice and want to produce them to begin testing...

Dev 

[griffinppatterson]

When i get my normal computer back on Monday, I'll try to whip up some rough sprites for the class dice. they will be nothing without a table of icons, but they will at least look good.

[seb.borchert]

I´ve thought about some (may be alternate) restrictions/ rules:

 

You can´t use more class dice in a fight/turn, than your actual level.

 

 

I don´t like the mechanism that, if I grab a class dice which I can´t use, that I have to leave it ... that´s a kind of lost something... why not something like trade in these class dice: 1 for a potion, 2 for a treasure, 3 or 4 for a artifact (which means also 1 fame ;-) )

 

I also like multi classing:

 

You can´t have more classes than your actual level... 

[Michael R.]

So much to think about. Highlights:

-Class dice being taken as wounds is a good thing if they are now (semi-)equivalent to Level Dice. Otherwise the scenario Dev mentioned can happen.

-Multiclassing. Not sure how this should work yet. I like being able to pursue different class trees but we can't Class Dice become THE BEST THING EVER(tm).

-Griff's helping hand, I give a +1!

-Class Expansion = easy, Dungeon = hard. I like the idea but then again I don't. Ideally expansions should add new content without changing (dramatically one way or the other) the difficulty of the game. One way to fix this which I like is Dev's suggestion of "+1 Fame necessary to win per expansion".

-"Advanced Dice" costing 1 wound, +1 (ie good idea)

-Dev has some really good comments on all the class dice. Do we have a compilation somewhere of all the ideas so people can playtest? I really feel like some that + some stats will help even out the power levels.

[Devaliant]

I had an idea that we´ll try out when the dice is made. Simply put, you have all class dice in one bag. When a player draws a die, the rest of this class dice is removed from the bag and set aside. When he wants to draw an additional die, this is taken randomly (alternatively by choice?) from the set aside pool. 

I generally don´t like the multiclassing but this could be house ruled or alternative, fine by me. We will playtest both. 

Especially with the more powerful abilities you could end up making a cookie-cutter build. Or a horrific weak one. 

The dry facts about all games is that they need to be balanced so choice is infact always a choice. Otherwise it´s reduced to luck only. 

Imagine having one building in Puerto Rico considered way OP. You would have a race for the money, then for the purchase.

Dev

[griffinppatterson]

Decided that I was bored and wanted to give another look into classes. Someone in the comments section mentioned reference cards and I just realized that adding a bunch of new symbols for classes would not make it any easier. What if, instead of choosing a class with the dice, you chose (or at random) a class reference card in the beginning of the game and could only use class dice of that chosen card. The class could be traded freely just like dice, which would only increase player interaction. Say you have two Mage dice and you're a thief. You could trade your mage dice to the mage in trade for her sick equipment or the mage could trade her class for your unused equipment and the class you don't have any dice for. With these reference cards, you wouldn't have to worry about forgetting what the symbols mean.

[Michael R.]

Slick idea. We could even extend this so that which reference card you pick (or are dealt) determines your abilities. This could be used across classes (with generic symbols) or across classes. For example, the Thief, Mage, and Warrior classes could all have a "1" side and a "2" side but the Mage's "1" add's a Fireball spell whereas the Thief's "1" gives double treasure. Or, the Thief and Rogue could both have a certain symbol, say a Dagger. The Thief's Dagger let's you backstab an opponent whereas the Rogue's Dagger adds a small amount of damage to your own combat. Maybe even making it a level one Execute.

[griffinppatterson]

I'm currently working on the symbols for the class dice that we came up with earlier, so far I have the one for the Thief's Hunt die done. Either repick your monster or repick his level. Definitely one of the thief's most powerful options.

[griffinppatterson]

I finished a few more ideas for class dice.

The Thief set as it stands:

The Knight set as it stands:

The cleric set as it stands:

I would love to keep making more, but I have a long day ahead tomorrow and it's way past my bedtime (because I'm apparently 9 years old)

[binarysunrise]

A few thoughts....

1) I'm hesitant to add a set of reference cards to the game that determine gameplay/abilities - it seems to defeat the purpose of this being an epic "dice" game (I'm fine with cards that list symbols on them....)

2) Have you started playtesting these dice? I'm worried that some classes might be significantly more powerful than others. But then again, it might just be as I play the game - to me, choosing the knight's dice is a no-brainer over the other classes.

3) I have yet to read through this entire thread (though I still like my suggestion to have initial gameplay determine the class and growth route of your character), but I'm curious as to what the end goal is - the objective for winning the game. As epic monsters are introduced, and you yourself grow stronger with the class upgrades, surely the finish line needs to be pushed back. Would more "fame" be needed to win? Or should we think outside the box a bit?

[Michael R.]

I love the art!

That's a good point about reference cards =/= dice. So maybe they should just strictly be reference then. I was just trying to think of a way to add variety without a huge number of unique dice since that seems to be a big sticking point price wise.

I myself haven't playtested any classes yet, so I can't speak to balance. Anyone else? I think it was mentioned somewhere that each new expansion might add a requirement of +1 Fame. Though I doubt that's official. There was also talk of having "hard" and "easy" expansions.

[griffinppatterson]

So my intention was to finish the art with the current abilities early this week and spend the rest playtesting them. Just to get an idea of the weighting.

The idea as it is.

At the beginning of the game, select a class card starting with player 1. Any unused class cards remain on the side if gameplay for further use. Class cards may be traded between players or between the unused ones on the side. (Trades can only be done on your turn or the turn of the person involved in the trade)

When defeating an enemy, you may choose to draw a class die or gain experience. Class dice may only be used if they are of the same class you are. Though you may trade class dice or classes as you would any dice. Class dice cannot be traded if they are expended. Only usable class dice may be traded. This would allow players to use class dice if type A then switch class and use thrm of type B, but then theyd be in a slump as they need to restore many class dice before returning to play.

All class dice are one use and may be treated as an instant, meaning that dice such as the thiefs hunt may be used to hinder another player as well as help himself. Class dice can be rejuvenated by using a healing potion or by resting and rolling a D6 just as with hero dice. Any mixture if hero and class dice can be restored upon healing. Slime's healing spell can restore a class die, but the other monster's curse can only remove hero dice.

I'm also thinking of a possible pure evil class that focuses on hindering opponents more than helping himself. Things like backstabbing and removing fame from monsters and destroying equipment. Though with the current class set up, five classes is more than enough. A sixth would be problematic.

[casu.gianluca]

Okay, i like what I hear. that said , just to be a pain in the ass, since the class card only is needed to determine what starting class you are, I see two possibilities:

- Either it is a definition of the player, then let's just make a class die with the level inside and substitute the level die

- Either it is added to the attack die, then let's nonetheless make a die for it. This game is about dice isn't it?

This way we could even plan multiclassing or class changes. lets seeeeeeeee...

How about you collect dice ( you can trade them if you want) and when you have three dice of a type  you can choose to change to that class and if you have three dice two of one class and one of the other you can multiclass?

Multicvlass player will be able to play two die of the main class and one of the secondary class

[griffinppatterson]

My reason for reference cards is simply as a means to state what the symbols are. I mean, in my work alone, I created around 7 new symbols for people to learn. The more that is added, the harder this game is going to be to simply pick up. The idea is for kids to enjoy it as much as adults. The reference cards would be something like this, except not so ultra-crap:

 This would also work with the idea of playmats as the playmats don't have space for an expansion that doesn't exist yet. Also, it gives a physical thing to trade, which adds value. I simply worry about multiclassing because I want people to trade their class dice and why would you if you could just use them yourself. In the current 5 classes, you have a 20% chance of pulling one of your current class and a 40% chance of pulling a class that you can use (in a 4-player game, with it being 60% in a 3-player game). Additionally, classes could just as easily be removed in a 2-player game to make your probability more likely to get 4 usable class dice on one class.

[casu.gianluca]

I hear your doubt but I made this reasonement: if I have 4 players, I will have 4 times each class, so to be sure that everyone has the possibility to get one class.

So this means that for 5 classes I will have 20 dice. the possibility to get the knight is 4/20 or 1/5, but after the first round the possibility ( admitting I'm the one that chooses first) is 3/16 (!)

this possibility rate is extremely fluid seen that everytime you fish a die you reduce pool and posssibilities so, if my numbers are right, mulòticlassing and class switch are very difficult unless you do not trade dice.

[griffinppatterson]

Right, so I finished up the art for my attempt at the class expansion and I look forward to playtesting it soon. I nerfed the barbarian a bit because he gains dice and gains damage to dice and it's an all around powerhouse class. The themes worked out pretty well and you guys like the reference cards as much as I do.

Also, @Casu, I know that multiclassing would be better than not based on the probabilities alone, but I don't see how it can be done easily. If you know of a way I haven't thought of, lay it out in rules and we'll have a go at it as well. But I can't back up multiclassing if I don't understand how it's played. I can only hope the probabilities for my current idea aren't as brutal as they look.

[Devaliant]

The mockup looks great, kudos for the nice cards aswell. 

I´m printing them now to stick onto dice.

I was thinking something for the skeleton key and thief skill "lockpick":

Make the lock jam up if the skill fails? This would prevent saving the red key unless the player wants to gamble.

Dev

[griffinppatterson]

I was gonna say that nothing would change if there was a harsher repercussion for failure, but I take it back. My initial thought was that people would just save the skill die for a last option anyways, but now that I think about it, if I had that class die, I would trade away my key to someone for something better. I think i like that idea.

That said, I think that all class dice should have one die with a bigger gamble. Even if it is only one side. Like Fury has +2, +3, +4, fizzle, fizzle, -1. aka critical miss.

[Michael R.]

I just looked at griff's mockups and I'm drooling. Has anyone had a chance to playtest them yet?

Also, did we come to some sort of consensus on how class dice would work?

[griffinppatterson]

I had a chance to playtest them and I really enjoyed it. The way I did it last time was that when you defeat a monster, you could choose to gain an experience point or pick up a class die at random. It worked, but those that picked class dice and didn't get any good ones kinda got screwed over. No level dice, no good equipment and no useful class dice meant they got crushed by even the weakest monsters. From that, I am thinking of trying to have people choose to pick up the class dice instead of getting the reward die from the monster. I presume that many will choose class dice over one use dice, but later in the game, some may choose them over equipment dice as hording for 6 regular treasures isn't always easy and you can always trade for them later. I'll give that a whirl in a few days and hopefully it is fun.

[Devaliant]

We tried it yesterday, with 4 mature players.

We quickly decided on a different way to gain class dice:

John has two hero dice and therefore his counter has been set to "3". He decides to flip it back to 1, dismiss one hero die and gain a class die of his choice. He can then level back up to three, gain a hero die and keep it, or trade it in for another class die. We played without multiclassing, but you got one random class die in the beginning. After that you simply chose a die from within your class.

Leveling this way actually makes the Fame from 4 Class dice hard to get, because you gimp your damage. A nice way to even out.

Oh and getting an used ability back?

We decided that if you heal a hero die, you also get one exhausted ability back. If you heal, and heal 3 hearts, you get up to three hero dice and three abilities back.

If you only heal one hero die, you can still get more abilities back. 

One major issue that needs to be adressed, is which abilities can or cannot be used to #$%& up other players fights. Can the Berserker add upto 3 hero dice on the monsters side? Wicked.

We used the "reroll monster level or reroll to an entire different monster" as a disruptor, and it was great fun! Player about to win defeating a level 5 dragon got gimped and had to fight a lvl 4 fire elemental, sadly he had already blown his one-use and suffered a horrible, crispy death...

Otherwise it seems like a good setup, mayhaps some chars need some more dmg abilities, but if the classes are chosen it´s really more fun to have very distinguishable classes instead of 5 differently named, nearly identical in effects.

Dev

[Devaliant]

Did this forum die at "funded"?

Dev