New Expanded Rules

[potluckgames]

I'm including a link to a new expanded version of the rules.  Rather than including a FAQ, most symbols explain a few exceptions and unusual cases.  There are a lot more examples and some color coding.  As well as a few tweeks so things run more smoothly. 

 

Take a look.  If you want to help out, I would love to get feedback on any inconsistencies, typos, confusion, etc.

 

Thanks. 

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5nuEqZiDR4beVl5NkczSjhpelU/edit?usp=sharing

[potluckgames]

By the way, I want to polish this in the next couple of days so I can send it in to Dice Tower along with a newer prototype.  So if you have a question or concern that isn't addressed in the new rules, let me know.

[matias.korman]

Hei there,

I toock a quick look at the rules and saw that you chanced the faces for the level die (nice idea btw!). Could you maybe place an updated pdf file with the new faces? I have some spare blank dice that could use the upgrade ;)

[binarysunrise]

Ok, here are my read-through notes (from an English teacher and a writer....)

1) Introduction: "race to collect the most impressive dice in an attempt to win the throne" - this, to me, doesn't capture the point of the game. Maybe "as they race to become famous enough to seize the throne of Elorim." I don't know.

2) The Story: "but this is probably the best chance you're going to get." Add "to ever become a king." to the end of the sentence.

3) Treasure: put a comma after Otherwise - "Otherwise, he may draw from the equipment bag..."

4) As a random note - the examples use a different style (bold & outline?) that's a tad hard to read in the pdf

5) Monster Level Dice: Add a bit more to the example, for it's unclear why you get the Equipment. Add, in parenthesis after Equipment, "which is on the defeated Goblin die.'

6) Hero Level Dice: Would it be useful to explain shortly with an example of an injured hero? "(For example, a level four hero that is injured would only roll 3 dice.)"

7) Equipment Dice - Bold-face or put in caps the limit number of TWO one-handed or ONE two-handed. It's really important. Put a comma before "except in combat."

8) As a random note - some time early on you should specify that the basics of the game is that you are ADDING up the monster dice, ADDING up the hero dice, and comparing the sums to decide the victor.

9) As a random note - also should mention that some combat could be cooperative, with multiple players adding their dice values together to combat a single monster together. Otherwise, when you mention it in passing in "Experience Trackers" it's a bit odd

10) Experience Trackers - "Below, the hero's level is expressed as a number of dice." Add "which indicate how many Hero Level dice a player can use in combat."

11) SetUp: When indicating what color dice go in which bag, maybe name the bag in parenthesis (ONE-USE, MONSTER BAG, etc.) , as you often don't refer to the bag by color

12) Assistance: "Assistants may add their LEVEL dice..." maybe add "own" in front of LEVEL

13) Assistance Example 1: "The monster drops a ONE-USE die." I think this is the first time you used the phrase "drops." Seems out of place. Then, after this sentence, add "To decide who gets it...."

14) Combat Example 1: "If she has no abilities or ONE-USE dice..." What do you mean by "abilities"? I don't think this was mentioned yet. Add (see below)

15) Combat Example 2: This is the first mention of getting wounded on a tie. Mention this possibility in parentheses earlier?

16) Healing: No need to mention again that hero's can't have negative dice (which isn't related to healing).

17) Trading: "Player's" should be "Players"

18) Roll-Offs: Why not italicize "Dungeon Dice" or underline it. 

19) Roll-Offs Example 2: I'd add a comma "and agrees, even though..."

20) Ties: "However, there is only one throne." It's been a while since you mentioned the goal of the game - so describe it a bit more - "However, there is only one throne, and only one of you can be king." 

21) Ties: Also, after "...ONE-USE dice normally" I'd add in "as if in combat against a monster."  

22) Ties: Also, "Player's" should be "Players"

23) Slash: I'd add in a dash between two sentences: "...SLASH effect once with one exception - if the face of a die displays two SLASH..."

24) Bestiary: Should this page be called "Monsters"? (since you never refer to them as anything but)

25) Slime: Add "after combat" after "Eating a slime"

26) Bat: lowercase "Giant" 

27) Goblin: Do you want "Consider it a freebee." or "Consider them a freebee."

28) Demon: "plain" should be "plane"

29) Dragon: add in "with their wings" to "...use the GUST ability."

PHEW! It looks *much* better. And I learned a few things :)

[kjawsa]

1) Equipment: "A hero may change equipment at any point except during combat." Is that accurate?  I thought I saw someone say that equipment is only changed at the start of the active players turn.  Or can an Assistant quickly change equipment before jumping into combat?  
 
2) Experience Tracer:  You mention how to gain experience, by killing a monster, but you don't describe how to use/spend experience.  You could add something like "Increase the Experience Tracker number by one for the active player (and assistants) each time a monster is killed."
 
3) SETUP: In step one, maybe after the sentence "and the monster dice in
 the black bag." Add in parenthesis or a quick note.  Magic dice are 
white and do not get added to the black Monster bag.  **A big assumption
 on my part when I first tried the game was that all white dice were 
monsters.  You can imagine my confusion when the topic of spells came 
up. :)  **
 
4) SETUP:  You do not mention the Experience Tracker die.  I suggest adding it to step two.  "Each player begins with one Experience Tracker die set to 1 and one Hero Level die."
 
5) PLAYER TURN - 3. COMBAT:   I would suggest clarifying the entry below from the ABILITIES section and adding it early on in  PLAYER TURN - 3. COMBAT.  
After the first sentence- "The first inactive player (not in combat) to the active players left controls and rolls the dice for the monster, with the exception during a two player game.  In a two player game, the non active players will roll and use abilities for the monster, even if assisting the active hero."
 
"The monster’s abilities are controlled by the first player to the active player’s left who is NOT in combat.
In a two-player game, it is possible that no player qualifies to control the monster. In this case,
the monster automatically uses abilities in a way that is most likely to result in victory. In case
of dispute, the inactive player makes any  final decisions."
 
6) I suggest putting the results of combat into a new section.

[griffinppatterson]

Fame is awarded for gaining experience? Is that new?

"In the base game, this is limited to taking and recovering WOUNDS. AFTER COMBAT effects only affect the active player." I don't think that you should say "in the base game" I think it should be something like "This can include effects such as taking/recovering wounds or gaining extra experience. After combat effects only affect the active player."

If I were to fight a demon alone and win, can I still offer to roll off for the artifact in the offer involving someone elses key? Or do they have to be part of the combat too? I assume that since red dice and treasures can be traded freely, this offer is still possible.

I think for the sake of thoroughness, when you say, "When this symbol is present on an EQUIPMENT or ARTIFACT die, that die is considered a SWORD." it might help to say "a one handed sword" or a "two handed hammer" just because I know that some swords/axes/hammers can be either one or two handed based on the size.

it is a very good and extensive rulebook though. Some of me doesn't like how things are sort of repeated, but that makes it a much better reference guide. I know when playing games if I am confused about something, I hope that the rulebook provides a reference guide of some sort to help. This does and I like it.

[potluckgames]

Currently working on incorporating suggestions.

 

I'm not a fan of the repetition myself, but it's better as a learning tool.

 

Fame for experience is new.  It reduces game length slightly.

 

As far as the wording "in the base game."  We took out reference to extra experience because we also took out the extra experience icon.  It added little to the game, but we want the icon for the fear effect later.  Not sure on a better wording.

 

[griffinppatterson]

I can get behind both of those changes. It's a good trade off, getting rid of extra experience, but making level three a more famous task.

[griffinppatterson]

I thought that I read in the original rules that it's six normal treasures for an artifact.

[Michael R.]

I just checked and the original rules said five treasures. 

I also have a few questions both from my first playtest and the new rules (although a few have already been answered by this new rule book):

1. When a player "assists" can she/he also use their abilities? For instance, if I assist my buddy and roll a whip symbol can I Tangle away one of the opponent's dice?
2. If you can use abilities, how does Reach work? Does the "assist-er" just roll his/her dice before combat? Do both players roll? Or does no one roll? What if the active player has Reach? Does she/he only roll their own dice? What if I agree to assist? Can I also roll my dice pre-combat then?
3. Can I change my equipment between player turns? Say I have a hammer and a bow. On my turn I use the bow so I can take advantage of the Hunt ability. Then on the next turn my friend rolls a locked chest. Can I switch my bow to my hammer in order to possibly break it open?
4. In the section which describes abilities I noticed that Armor can be used before all other abilities  Does this mean that a monster with Armor can force me to re-roll any of my dice before I get to use their abilities (excepting Hammers and my Armor of course)?
5. Similarly, Execute says it does not take effect until all other abilities have been played. Does this mean my opponent would have the opportunity to activate all of their own abilities before my Execute happens?
6. As a followup point to 4 and 5 this seems to contradict the general ruling in the Combat section which says that the active player has the opportunity to activate any number of abilities first. Unless, of course, this is just mean to give an ordering to abilities during a player's own turn.
7. Also, this same section is problematic in that it does not mention when your assistant may activate their abilities. This assumes your assistant can activate abilities. If they can't, an explicit point here mentioning that would be extremely helpful.
8. One last minor nitpick, in the section which describes abilities, Armor says it can reroll a Level die and the world level is in black. However, everyone else you have the word Level in green.
9. Additionally, some places you use Hero Level die and in other places you use Level die. Not sure if that's intentional but some consistency would probably be good (though it isn't really confusing).

Overall this is a great upgrade and clears up some of the misconceptions I had. Most of my points are minor/obscure quibbles or just some small nitpicking to make sure it's polished.

[potluckgames]

I have read over all of the suggestions so far and updated the rules.  There were only a few suggestions that caused new problems, and I had to decide which problem I prefered best. :)

 

Michael R -

1- I have fixed the wording.  Yes, assistants may use abilities.

2- Each player with reach may use the ability. 

3- Yes and yes.

4- Yes.

5 - Yes.

6 - I've added a note in the symbols that dice-specific rules supercede previous rules.

7 - fixed

8 - In some cases, LEVEL dice referred to hero and monster level dice.  I've changed the two instances I was aware of, for the sake of clarity.

 

A lot of questions have been coming through.  I assume most of them are intended as feedback on the rules. Also, I have likely missed a few.  So, if you are still waiting for an answer, please ask your question again, and I will get back to you.

[potluckgames]

matias.korman - I will get to work on that. 

[binarysunrise]

When you say you "updated the rules" - can you post your revisions for a final look-through? I have my own papers I'm supposed to be editing, but I wouldn't mind glancing over them a 2nd time.

Thanks

[potluckgames]

Here you go.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5nuEqZiDR4bY1JVX19TQ3ZfWjg/edit?usp=sharing

[potluckgames]

I tried to fix that weird outline problem in the bold font, but it's still there.  I'll fix that by the final version.

 

 

Here's a link to the new experience trackers. 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5nuEqZiDR4bT09tbWFZenF5Zjg/edit?usp=sharing

[seb.borchert]

I had a look at the revised rules:

Page 1/14:

I think it would be nice to even know what numbers of dice there are in the game (26 green, 6 black...) and the colours of the bags like this

72 dice as follows

      18 green dice (experience trackers, lvl dice)

      17 white dice (spells & monsters)

 and so on

 

Monster dice-

may be a hint that trophies are tradeable (i know later its already mentioned...)

 

Treasure-

its always said you need a key, shatter is just explained at the ability, may be a hint would be helpful here

 

Page 3/14

Spell dice-

...the monster is immune to that spell, *new* so that PLAYERS can´t use this spell against it.

 

Page 5/14

Example 4 -Players 2 --> think the s is too much

 

Page 6/14

5. Treasures --> Same as mentioned before regarding the shatter ability, may be the hint, "possesses a key or another way to open the lock..."

 

Page 9/14

Locked chest --> "...possesses a key or can shatter the lock..."

 

Reach --> Just equipment and Hero Level dice, what about artifacts? Think they are missing here...

 

Page 10/14

Shatter --> I would change "ignores an opponents ARMOR" into "negates" 

 

Page 11/14

ARMOR - ... Heroes my use the armor ability before all other abilities *new* except the opponent got a shatter symbol.

 

At last a question:

 

Drain just adds the combat value of the lowest die not the abilities from that die? 

[Michael]

In process of stripping the stickers off of my current experience trackers and printing the new stickers for them :)

[Devaliant]

I have one immediate objection, something we practiced from the very first game:

A monster die that is pulled, should also be rolled. 

Why? If your´e quick and sneaky, it´s very possible to place a die on the table with a somewhat chosen side up.

This is even easier to do when dice are injection molded; the faces with monsters feels very different from the faces with treasure, due to the graphics. I assume they are not going to be molded and filled, as this is quite expencive. (Gambler dice is like that to prevent any loading.)

Sadly, I do have one or two friends that are no strangers to cheating. We guard them like dogs and punish them severely.

This time I will beat them to it!

Dev

[griffinppatterson]

Devaliant, I don't understand. You pull a die out of the bag, show everyone that it's a [insert monster here], roll said monster and choose to fight it. How is that cheatable? I understand that you might be able to feel for a particular monster by the indents, but I think I'll just tell people to pull their sodding cheater hands out of the bag before they get them lopped off. Can you elaborate how cheaters would be able to skip the system?

[casu.gianluca]

I just finished reading and I think this rules are a huge step forward. Now the game mechanics flow and are easy to understand. 

I have to admit that i had to play it online with Seb and Griffin to finally understand it.

One small detail though.

On the first page you say that on each die there is a face that is a treasure symbol and that if the monster is defeated you receive that Treasure. Everything is fine but I cannot find the rule taht states that if you roll directly the treasure face you collect it without fighting.

Is it elsewhere? i could not find it.

[Devaliant]

I answered from the phone, seems like the post didn´t make it.

The rules doesn´t state that you roll the die, and we collectively didn´t pick that up from the demo video either. 

Probably just my bad, and we´ve rolled it from the start ourselves. 

Disregard the concern.

Dev

[kc2dpt]

From the rules (the pnp version):

"Begin your turn by reaching into the monster bag and grabbing a random die. Roll the die into the play area for all players to see."

[Devaliant]

How do people feel about loot dividing suggestions?

Whenever I play this game, people come up with funny and interesting deals for dividing loot.

I am torn between letting people discover the fun of this and suggesting it, for example in the soon-to-be-infamous "Devaliants Section of Alternatives"

I have a hunch that too many people will just lean on simple dice rolls, and very often the 50/50 that comes up first. 

We´ve had:

"You´ll get 50/50 but you´ll have to succeed twice"

"You´ll get 60 over 40 if I get your bomb"

"I´ll duel you for the treasure" (no wounds taken)

"Rock paper scissor lizard Spock!"

"You can have a 50/50 on the artifact but then you´re forced to help me next time I ask no questions asked"

"We´ll pick the blue and if it´s 1H I´m getting it, 2H you get it, otherwise roll"

I wouldn´t write up more than perhaps the two best we can collectively come up with though. Wall of text blah blah.

Dev

[griffinppatterson]

Those are all excellent. I like them all.

[Devaliant]

In "After Combat Effects" it says that only the active player is affected. This might be confusing considering the ghost effect in two-hero fights, assuming they both suffer a wound?

Dev

[griffinppatterson]

They don't. Only the active player takes the wound. As with Slime and healing one wound.

[potluckgames]

You know, the whole "after combat" effect thing might just be more complicated than it needs to be.  Currently, only the active player takes wounds from ghosts and eats slimes.  Maybe it would be easier to just remove that rule.  The initial problem was that those effects were not optional.  The player controlling the monster cannot decide to NOT use the slimes healing ability.  What we need is a more elegant solution.

 

By the way, I just finished up a new version of the rules to send in to Dice Tower.  However, I'll continue tweeking them.

[binarysunrise]

What we need is a more elegant solution.

If the cost of creating the custom die is in the creation of an entire die (rather than a single side), there'd be no extra cost to add in the heal icon to the bottom of the treasure icon on the slime dice. Why not then add the little heart to the potion side??

[binarysunrise]

Major editing session, number two. This time I focused more on consistency....

1) Occasionally you capitalize the "level" in the name of the hero/monster. 

- Equipment Dice: Example 1 - "A level 1 hero is fighting a Level 2 Wolf."

2) Setup - you could add "MONSTER" to the description of the black bag. The others have been named.

3) Occasionally you capitalize "monster" when not needed (especially for consistency).

- Player Turn: Trophies - "Otherwise, return the Monster die to the Monster bag."

- Trophies - "the hero may keep the Monster die..."

- Abilities - "lower right corner of the Monster die."

- Armor - "In addition, Monsters may use this ability..."

4) Player Turn: End of Turn - You state "If the monster rolled any 6’s during combat..." but should this be "If the monster rolled any 6's during combat (which were not later changed or removed)..."

5) Occasionally you don't capitalize the name of the monster.

- Trading: Example 2  -"Player One offers to give him the goblin’s treasure..."

6) Roll-Offs - "Roll-offs play a key roll in gameplay." -> "roll" should be "role"

7) Roll-Offs: Example 1 - "The players call odds and evens then roll a die." should be "The players call odds and evens, and then roll a die."

8) Roll-Offs: Example 2 - "player Two" should be "Player Two"

9) Tie - "Player’s roll off" should be "Players roll off"

10) Healing - "HEALING is an AFTER-BATTLE effect" should be "AFTER COMBAT effect"

Looking better...

:)

[potluckgames]

That's good.  Thank you.

[binarysunrise]

What we need is a more elegant solution.

If the cost of creating the custom die is in the creation of an entire die (rather than a single side), there'd be no extra cost to add in the heal icon to the bottom of the treasure icon on the slime dice. Why not then add the little heart to the potion side??

While I still like this solution, it occurred to me that in rolling an unguarded treasure, you'd still experience the slime's/ghost's after combat effects. (of course, it could be argued that merely entering a ghost's lair would weaken you....)

[kc2dpt]

I hadn't played in a while and forgot how to correctly use armor. Something about the wording made me think the opponent gets to choose which die he'd reroll. It took us about half the game to realize this didn't work in practice. The opponent would always choose their lowest die, which means that if there's a 1 or 2 showing I don't want to use my armor because he'd likely get a better roll. Somehow I think the wording has to make clear that if I use armor then I'm telling my opponent which die to reroll.

We had a monster with a little skull and crossbones symbol in the lower left and this wasn't described in the rules anywhere. Was it for extra experience? Does the assisting player get this extra XP as well or is this considered an "after combat" effect? Is this symbol still in use or has it been revised out?

[kc2dpt]

BTW, game went well. I like the addition of the fame point for the 6th XP. Once you max out your XP the game used to plateau and stall a bit. This shortens the game just enough to counter that. 

[potluckgames]

The skull and crossbones have ben phased out.  When they reappear, they will have a different effect.

 

I see the confusion on the armor wording, thanks.