Game Report 8 picture
Jon
David G.D. Hecht
Jon Draper
Rules 0.4.9
Fixed Stock Market.
Added extra tiles.
Had LG payments only in defined zones.
Time: 6 hours (We played fairly slowly)
Players: Jon Draper, Peter Eldridge, Stephen Webb, Tony Bromley
Initial auction bids: P4 5, everybody else 0
P4 CRIP(50) + CBQ(50) + 2 ATSF(80)
P1 Katy(60) + 2 SP(70) + Frisco (50)
P2 Mil(80) + 2 NP(100)
P3 Cott(100) + 2 TP(80)
OR1 CB bought 2 trains, TP and SP none, other 1. 9 were used in OR1, 6
went into the pool.
OR2 Mil buys 2nd 2-trains, TP buys 2-trains. Still 4 in pool.
SP and TP missed each other - both trying to maximise LG income.
SR2 TP and SP bought and sold by president (to give companies cash).
ATSF sold out (1st 50%). NP
bought (not by president).
OR3 Four 3-trains bought by companies that reach their destination
ATSF(2), TP and SP. ATSF sells 3
trains to grangers.
OR4 Last three 3-trains bought (NP, ATSF, UP). NP reaches destination.
SR3 DRG started at 100 (and buys a 4-train to kill 2-trains). Paying
shares bought.
OR5 Three 4-trains sold (NP, TP, SP).
OR6 No trains bought - poisoned 4-train.
M&A SP takes Frisco, TP takes CB, ATSF takes CRIP and CBQ (discarding 2
3-trains), NP takes Mil and
CNW from pool for 200 (expensive token!).
SR4 KC started with 2 shares at 100. UP presidency bought.
OR7 ATSF buys 4-train and 5-train. TP and SP buy 5-train.
OR8 NP buys 6. (ATSF and SP 4-trains run) Up buys 8S.
SR5 MP(100) and GN(100) 20% sold started. GN buys 6-train.
OR 9/10 NP, SP and TP buy second trains. SP sells to Katy. ATSF buys GNs
(ATSF had 550 cash). GN buys
train and sells to MP. GN buys train from ATSF and sells to MP. bank
came close to breaking.
SR6 Some share swapping
OR 11/12 Bank breaks. ATSF buys train from MP. GN buys new train. Katy
buys 2nd train. GN finally
earns and pays a dividend. Top price company was NP (360).
(See picture. GN dividend not marked. ATSF, NP, TP are +100 on the
dividend).
Result of the game.
10764 P4 - Mid game income with 3-trains in grangers and major.
8663 P3 - 2 trains in DRG
8621 P1 - Katy running at the end.
7350 P2 - slow start - never recovered.
Questions:
a) When are LG's lost? (The KC was floated in the phase 4, first
operated in the phase 5 and reached
its destination in the phase 8S. It could have reached its destination
immediately by upgrading KC to
brown.)
b) Can a LG company do brown upgrades? In phase 5 (1 or 3)? Before if
forced?
c) Can a major with 2 trains take over a granger with no trains and
throw away a train?
d) Can a granger upgrade a tile (in the E) that it can only reach over
track outside the E zone?
Comments:
1) At one point we had used 1 83-tile and 7 82-tiles. Another 82-tile
was wanted. It could have jsut
be a strange point of our game.
2) The LG restriction seemed to work - or the players were naturally
less destructive.
3) The rule that allows LG to do green upgrade provokes discussion. Can
you try and rewrite it, or
says what you would/would not allow.
Jon
David G.D. Hecht
questions below, with relevant citations.
One question: if the Milwaukee Road opened at $80 (thus receiving $160) and
bought a single 2-train in OR-1 (presumably for $10) how did it contrive to
buy a second one in OR-2? Or is that meant to be an OR-3 event? (OK, that's
*two* questions...)
Land Grants are never lost involuntarily by a LGC that starts before Phase 5
begins. They can, however, be abandoned anytime after Phase 5 begins
(6.2.4).
A Land Grant Company that starts after Phase 5 begins has no Land Grant and
is treated as a normal 10-share company (including the special power to
pre-buy a train from the Bank) (3.3.5)
> b) Can a LG company do brown upgrades? In phase 5 (1 or 3)? Before if
> forced?
>
I assume these questions apply to a 5-share LGC, since a 10-share LGC has no
restrictions (it can do two yellows or one upgrade of any color). The answer
is, a 5-share LGC can never do any upgrade beyond green (8.1, 1st 'graf
after the bullets).
> c) Can a major with 2 trains take over a granger with no trains and
> throw away a train?
>
Yes (7.5, next-to-last 'graf).
> d) Can a granger upgrade a tile (in the E) that it can only reach over
> track outside the E zone?
>
Yes (No specific cite, but implied by 8.1, 1st bullet).
> Comments:
>
> 1) At one point we had used 1 83-tile and 7 82-tiles. Another 82-tile
> was wanted. It could have jsut
>
> be a strange point of our game.
>
> 2) The LG restriction seemed to work - or the players were naturally
> less destructive.
>
> 3) The rule that allows LG to do green upgrade provokes discussion. Can
> you try and rewrite it, or
>
> says what you would/would not allow.
>
I assume by this, you mean "before a 3-train has been bought". It may well
be that--in the end--I allow LGCs to do green regardless of the phase
(possibly limiting it to plain track only, or to the frontier zone only,
or--perhaps--to their own paying LG hexes only), as it would no doubt be
simpler.
At the moment, here is my intent: if it is still yellow phase, normally a
LGC would be required to lay at least one yellow tile, which--perforce in
most cases--closes the distance between it and its destination. In some
instances, it is possible for its path to be cut off (this was, of course,
more of a problem before the latest tweak) and for it therefore to be
simultaneously required and prohibited to place a tile. To break thru this
circular loop, it is my intent that, in such a case, the company be allowed
to perform a green upgrade that allows it to continue toward its
destination.
Of course, once it has done so, it may now be in a position to lay another
tile or two. In such a case, it is theoretically possible for it to dead-end
itself again and thereby force itself to do another green upgrade.
Consider the following example:
OR-1, ATSF lays H21-I20-I18-(I16). TP lays K18-J17-I16-(I14). So far so
good! :-)
OR-2, ATSF cannot lay any yellow tile at all, since TP has laid I16. He then
has choices: he can upgrade I16 and then lay I14-I12; or he can upgrade I18
and lay H17-H15 (there are other possibilities as well, of course). If he
lays H15-(H13), then he can continue toward LA next turn without difficulty.
Now suppose that, instead, he lays H15-(G14), and in the following turn
(OR-3), another company upgrades Denver so as to preclude his connecting.
Then he would--perforce--have to find another way out: possibly by upgrading
H15 to point at H13 after all.
Jon Draper
Thanx again, Jon, for a fine and detailed report. I'll address your questions below, with relevant citations. One question: if the Milwaukee Road opened at $80 (thus receiving $160) and bought a single 2-train in OR-1 (presumably for $10) how did it contrive to buy a second one in OR-2? Or is that meant to be an OR-3 event? (OK, that's *two* questions...)
If you can't run the Milwauke for $80 in OR2 then the NP president must really hate you.
(Two answers to two questions.)
b) Can a LG company do brown upgrades? In phase 5 (1 or 3)? Before if forced?I assume these questions apply to a 5-share LGC, since a 10-share LGC has no restrictions (it can do two yellows or one upgrade of any color). The answer is, a 5-share LGC can never do any upgrade beyond green (8.1, 1st 'graf after the bullets).
I think that is would be better to extend the green in yellow rules to brown in green/brown.
c) Can a major with 2 trains take over a granger with no trains and throw away a train?Yes (7.5, next-to-last 'graf).
d) Can a granger upgrade a tile (in the E) that it can only reach over track outside the E zone?Yes (No specific cite, but implied by 8.1, 1st bullet).
Comments: 1) At one point we had used 1 83-tile and 7 82-tiles. Another 82-tile was wanted. It could have jsut be a strange point of our game. 2) The LG restriction seemed to work - or the players were naturally less destructive. 3) The rule that allows LG to do green upgrade provokes discussion. Can you try and rewrite it, or says what you would/would not allow.I assume by this, you mean "before a 3-train has been bought". It may well be that--in the end--I allow LGCs to do green regardless of the phase (possibly limiting it to plain track only, or to the frontier zone only, or--perhaps--to their own paying LG hexes only), as it would no doubt be simpler.
At the moment, here is my intent: if it is still yellow phase, normally a LGC would be required to lay at least one yellow tile, which--perforce in most cases--closes the distance between it and its destination. In some instances, it is possible for its path to be cut off (this was, of course, more of a problem before the latest tweak) and for it therefore to be simultaneously required and prohibited to place a tile. To break thru this circular loop, it is my intent that, in such a case, the company be allowed to perform a green upgrade that allows it to continue toward its destination.
extreme example.
SP lays SE to J7; TP w to K14; Sp E to J14
TP can lay 1-3 yellow and get closer to destination, no problem. If it lays a curve pointing NW.
SP is 1 green away from its destination.
Can it lay 3 yellows going E? Not reaching its destination.
Of course, once it has done so, it may now be in a position to lay another tile or two. In such a case, it is theoretically possible for it to dead-end itself again and thereby force itself to do another green upgrade. Consider the following example: OR-1, ATSF lays H21-I20-I18-(I16). TP lays K18-J17-I16-(I14). So far so good! :-) OR-2, ATSF cannot lay any yellow tile at all, since TP has laid I16. He then has choices: he can upgrade I16 and then lay I14-I12; or he can upgrade I18 and lay H17-H15 (there are other possibilities as well, of course). If he lays H15-(H13), then he can continue toward LA next turn without difficulty. Now suppose that, instead, he lays H15-(G14), and in the following turn (OR-3), another company upgrades Denver so as to preclude his connecting. Then he would--perforce--have to find another way out: possibly by upgrading H15 to point at H13 after all.
Unless LG can lay green track at will, players will try and force green track to their advantage.
David G.D. Hecht
----- Original Message -----From: Jon DraperSent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:33 PMSubject: [dtg-proto] Re: Game Report 8 picture
David G.D. Hecht wrote:Thanx again, Jon, for a fine and detailed report. I'll address your questions below, with relevant citations. One question: if the Milwaukee Road opened at $80 (thus receiving $160) and bought a single 2-train in OR-1 (presumably for $10) how did it contrive to buy a second one in OR-2? Or is that meant to be an OR-3 event? (OK, that's *two* questions...)We missed the rule where the Milwauke can buy its first train for $10.
If you can't run the Milwauke for $80 in OR2 then the NP president must really hate you.
(Two answers to two questions.)
(DH) Heh. A typo: my bad. And of course you will have earned enough to buy a second 2-train...oh well! Even Homer nods! :-)
(DH) Yeah...I'll have to see about that: this is an example of an area where the rules need to be clarified and simplified.
It seemed to good to be true. So you buy an "expensive token" and throw away an unwanted train.c) Can a major with 2 trains take over a granger with no trains and throw away a train?Yes (7.5, next-to-last 'graf).
Thought that we ought to preempt the rules lawyers.d) Can a granger upgrade a tile (in the E) that it can only reach over track outside the E zone?Yes (No specific cite, but implied by 8.1, 1st bullet).
(DH) Indeed. But we've been doing it for a while, e.g. Milwaukee Road upgrades Minneapolis/St. Paul.
(DH) Yes, because by doing so it reduces the distance in *unimproved* hexes: that's the reason I have that word in there. Of course, there will be apoint at which it *has* to reach destination, as per the exisitng example in the rules.
Of course, once it has done so, it may now be in a position to lay another tile or two. In such a case, it is theoretically possible for it to dead-end itself again and thereby force itself to do another green upgrade. Consider the following example: OR-1, ATSF lays H21-I20-I18-(I16). TP lays K18-J17-I16-(I14). So far so good! :-) OR-2, ATSF cannot lay any yellow tile at all, since TP has laid I16. He then has choices: he can upgrade I16 and then lay I14-I12; or he can upgrade I18 and lay H17-H15 (there are other possibilities as well, of course). If he lays H15-(H13), then he can continue toward LA next turn without difficulty. Now suppose that, instead, he lays H15-(G14), and in the following turn (OR-3), another company upgrades Denver so as to preclude his connecting. Then he would--perforce--have to find another way out: possibly by upgrading H15 to point at H13 after all.This is an example of why green track is needed. I don't disagree with this.
Unless LG can lay green track at will, players will try and force green track to their advantage.
(DH) Indeed. As you Brits like to say, "I refer the gentleman to the remarks I made moments ago"--or however that little parliamentary phrase goes.