Smoke vs flame comparison

[Peter Zacaroli]

Hi All,

I've got a smoke demo tomorrow so can ask some questions then but a colleague sent me this list from the Autodesk site.  Seems like Smoke Advanced hardly does anything, or is this marketing nonsense?

http://www.autodesk.com/products/autodesk-flame-family/compare

[Tony Quinsee-Jover]

Hi Peter. 

Imagine you're doing a DS job. How easy is it to ingest the media. How good are the editing tools. How about audio tracks and effects. How easy is it to mask. How about colour correcting, and masking. Compositing?

Think about your most recent complex DS job and ask about all of the steps you used to finish it. 

T :)

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[Timon Mahony]

Hi Peter, 

Marketing... The list is very specific re: the Lustre and Flame VFX tools in Flame Premium. Smoke Advanced does more than enough.

Cheers

Timon

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[Victor Wolansky]

Between Flame and Smoke Advanced the difference is not that much, may be a few nodes here and there. 

Between Flame Premium and Smoke Advanced. FP includes Lustre as a grading tool. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Peter Zacaroli]

Thanks guys, that's what I thought, I've opened up the conversation about which tools to use in the facility to all my editors and one of them found this list, which is about as useful as a chocolate teapot for our purposes.

[Victor Wolansky]

It I think impossible for a software that used to have a 2000 pages manual book to describe all the tools, to put them in a small list. Just impossible. 

Sent from my iPhone

[John Heiser]

If I had to jump to another platform today (which I don't), I'd be concerned about that list. Specifically the unchecked boxes for secondary grading and preset grades.

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[Peter Zacaroli]

My take is that the list is trying to sell Flame vs Smoke and it says "realtime" grading.  Strictly speaking DS once nitris had gone wasn't realtime and we usually render before output to tape and final viewing.  So, in my workflow, so long as the preview grades are realtimeish I can work with that.  I know whichever system I purchase I'll be missing DS until I find how to use the things the new system does better. On that day I'll turn on a sixpence and it'll be DS? What DS? :)

[Joey D'Anna]

Its not entirely the case. Smoke advanced does have batch, which is a node based compositing environment, just like the effects tree in DS.

The color warper effect has 3 key based secondaries available to it, but no shapes/windows. Similar to the color correction effect in DS, but the secondaries in smoke are actually a lot better because they are real keys, not just hue/saturation vectors.

Its easy to build a node tree with as may shapes/secondaries/masks as you want, using many different gmask, blending mode, and color nodes - just like you can in DS when the built-in color correct effect isn't enough and you have to go to a tree.

I think when they are talking about not having secondary grading and presets, they are referring to the more advanced grade management and secondary toolset that lustre (included in flame premium) has, which is (if i remember correctly) up to 99 secondaries/shapes per grade on a single effect.

Really, grading in smoke advanced using the color warper and batch is going to be similar to using DS's color corrector in an effects tree, along with masks/etc.

Grading with flame premium (lustre) is more analogous to grading in resolve, baselight, or pablo.

The reason none of those boxes are checked for smoke is because comparing smoke to lustre isn't really apples to apples, its like comparing DS to resolve.

[Victor Wolansky]

The only thing you will miss over time will be the paint. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Victor Wolansky]

I think they are 48 secondaries ....  I never go there thought. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Victor Wolansky]

Something very cool of the secondaries in Lustre, they have sort of an effect tree, where you can have many nodes of masks, there is this guy called Ivar who always makes crazy stuff with it like night skies, rain, etc :-)

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2013, at 11:01 AM, Joey D'Anna <joey...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Tony Quinsee-Jover]

I recall a whisper suite at NAB where we were shown something very similar on DS...

Sad, innit?

T.

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[Jef Huey]

One thing to look at is audio.  Back when I was editing on smoke (a LONG time ago) audio was ok, but you should see what the state of OMF export / import is.  Make an OMF and give to your favorite audio guy.  Back to audio.  DS had / has much better audio tools than smoke did back then.  From what I have seen, it is not much better now. 

Like Tone said.  See how well it fits in YOUR workflow.

Jef

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Take a look at my work.

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[Joey D'Anna]

Yea - Lustre shapes can have parented axis trees, just like axes in action or local and global transforms in DS, but applied to shapes inside a single color corrector. Combined with lustre's planar tracker it can be very useful for animating a lot of masks very quickly

Lustre however does not have a full node based pipeline like resolve or DS. You can stack secondaries on top of each other, but they are all non destructive.

For example if you bring your gain all the way down to zero on the first layer, then draw a mask and gain it back up inside the mask on a new layer, you will get the full detail of the image back inside that mask.

Where as if you did that in nodes with resolve or DS, the clipping would be burnt into the previous node, so you wouldn't get anything back.

99% of the time this is a huge advantage for lustre. The flexibility is fantastic. But if you want to use clipping for some creative look, it takes a few more steps then it would in DS or resolve.

[Tony Quinsee-Jover]

Yeah, concatenation.

Fusion does that, too (concatenates nodes).

Tony

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[empi]

Admittedly it is a bit confusing. Smoke Advanced. Flame and Lustre used to be three separate products and code bases but moving projects from one product to the other was inefficient. We recently integrated Smoke Advanced and Flame into a single code base. Smoke Advanced is therefore now a subset of Flame. Our long-term strategy is to integrate grading, editing and FX capabilities into a single code-base offered modularly under the brand of Flame Premium. That table shows basically that modularity but is not meant to be fully descriptive.

 

Detailed info on Smoke Advanced 2013 can be found here:

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/smoke2013_user_guide_linux.pdf

 

We also released an extension (Extension 2) available only to Subscription customers. The extension is a major redesign and overhaul of the software. Although individual documentation was not made for the extension. Flame Premium general documentation can be seen here:

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/flamepremium2013_20thanniv_sp3_userguide.pdf

 

maurice

[Jef Huey]

On 8/19/13 11:24 AM, Joey D'Anna wrote:

For example if you bring your gain all the way down to zero on the first layer, then draw a mask and gain it back up inside the mask on a new layer, you will get the full detail of the image back inside that mask.

Where as if you did that in nodes with resolve or DS, the clipping would be burnt into the previous node, so you wouldn't get anything back.

I believe you are wrong about Resolve in that situation.  It has full 32 bit float processing.  We checked that very scenario and there was no clipping to be seen.

DS, unfortunately, does clip.  Don't really understand what 32 bit float gets you in DS.

[Ken Sirulnick]

DS Selective Color Corrector tree is real keys.  Only the lame, Symphony secondary are the hue/saturation vectors.

KEN

[Joey D'Anna]

Yea thats exactly my point - smoke is the same way. you only get 3 (although they are real keys) inside a single color warper effect.

Inside a tree, you can build whatever you want from any different number of keys, masks, mattes, etc - just like in DS.

The autodesk comparison chart isn't correct in that regard, its talking about lustre's huge number of secondaries that can be keys or shapes on a single grade, not inside a tree.

[Joey D'Anna]

Hrm - i very well could be wrong about that, i'm not a resolve expert. maybe it only does it if you manually turn on clipping on the particular node.

I thought that each node was processed individually. I'll test it next time i'm in front of resolve.

Pablo is the same way, each cascade (layer) is processed individually, so you can clip between them - but you can also route any of them as an input to any other, so you can get around it by routing the original clip or a different layer into whichever layer your working on.

[Joey D'Anna]

Looks like I was half right. Some operations in resolve clip, others don't. Any you can always enable clipping on an individual node if you want to for some creative reason.

Lots more info here: http://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/resolve-v9-1-clipping.1102/

[Jim Fink]

Great starter kit, thanks Joey.
and thanks for the first instance of:

> batch, which is a node based compositing environment <

helpfull as I have yet to look very closely at Smoke yet. Makes following the chat much more useful.
j
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[Joey D'Anna]

good, glad i can be of some help. im gonna try and go into some more detail here off the top of my head:

I will say this: i *love* smoke. i was on smoke before i was on DS (way back in the irix days), and i've always been a fan of it.

It has a ton of great features, and (this will be a big culture shock for long time DS guys) - its under active development! they are adding *real* new features, and regularly!

That said - smokes edit timeline isn't nearly as fast or fluid as DS. Nothing is. DS has the best timeline of any system ever made. But in a lot of ways, smoke can make up for it with its edit desk. You can do a whole lot of tasks quickly outside of the timeline - you just have to think a different way. If you get on smoke and stay in the (imo useless) source/record player mode, you wont be happy. You kind of have to give in to the autodesk way of thinking to get the most out of it.

heres some benefits to smoke over DS:

• Action (the smoke 3d DVE) will be a huge breath of fresh air to DS users. It blows DS's 3d DVE out of the water in every possible way. a real 3d camera thats easy to manipulate, powerful 3d lighting, great looking volumetric 3d haze/flares/etc builtin.
• Batch (or connectfx on the mac version) - is very much like DS's trees. navigating is easy with hotkeys and the pen, moving around and zooming is fluid and precise. There are also a lot of great nodes that you don't get in DS without plugins
  
• the builtin keyers are *much* better
• the builtin masking is much more powerful. You can draw as many masks as you want, connect and animate them with as many axes as you want, and assign tracks to axes as you see fit. in addition, each mask can have custom softness for each control point, and you can very easily freehand draw a mask with the pen and smoke will simplify it to the minimum amount of points needed so animation isn't a hassle later.
• documentation. Smokes manuals and online help are *very* detailed, and easy to search and navigate.

Things you will miss from the DS are..

• global and local axes. smoke has a very flexible and powerful axis tree, but it is confined to each action node. where in DS you could connect a transform to as many DVE's as you want - in smoke, axes are locked inside each action node (unless you use expressions - which is an option). This isn't nearly as bad as it sounds because unlike the DS DVE node, each action node can have unlimited layers, each with their own masks, keys, etc
• vector paint. the DS vector paint is fantastic. smoke paint is very powerful, and has a good autopaint feature that can do a lot of what you could do in DS, but it isnt as flexible. things like stack effects for fills dont exist, so your going to have to build that stuff in a tree.
• timeline <-> tree interaction. the ability to drag a layer from your compositing container right into a source node in your tree. you can containerize timelines and put them into trees in smoke, but re-editing once you have done so isn't as seamless as it is in DS.
• like i said before : the timeline. you dont have the very useful timeline/clip timecode entry fields like in DS. trimming isnt as easy, and in general the responsiveness isnt as instantaneous. You do get similar key/pen shortcuts for dragging around and zooming like in DS.
• audio editing. but your not gonna find that anywhere, so far nothing out there short of a full-on DAW can compare to DS's audio containers and track mapping flexibility.

thats all just off the top of my head, ill try and add more later on. if you have any questions - i've got a lot of experience on both boxes, so i can try to answer them. 

Smoke is a very powerful system - and for a lot of workflows, is a great alternative to DS. And unlike Avid, autodesk seems very keen to get and keep customers, and to actually develop their products. So hopefully the downsides will get less and less as time goes on.

[Declan MacErlane]

Thanks Joey. That's great information.

Cheers,
Dec

[Peter Zacaroli]

Thanks, really helpful.

[Paul Ingvarsson]

Let us know how the demo goes today.

Paul

[Peter Zacaroli]

Have to say the demo went extremely well today, and the pricing they're offering is really very attractive.  I don't feel comfortable sharing it on the list but it's worth contacting your Autodesk reseller.

[Tom Phillips]

I really totally agree with Joey. I have spent a lot of time on Smac since I went on my own llast year and it really hasn't been bad. 

You have to be open to new thoughts in how to do things, but that's no so bad. 

I also think that everyone here should look hard at the Smac version as opposed to the smoke advanced/flame premium version. 

It really can be all you need for probably 90% of the type of work most here are doing. 

And at that price point, not so bad to jump. 

Tom

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[Sean Stall]

Peter, I don't know who you work for but the 'crossgrade' pricing I received from our local reseller was anything but attractive.

---
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[Peter Zacaroli]

Hi Sean,

We're a small facility in London, maybe there's a difference in the US/UK pricing due to exchange rates or something.

[Victor Wolansky]

Or may be depending on what you do or expect to do or what your clients are, what is attractive to one is not to other. I highly doubt you received prices too different. But may be if I get a price of $50K (I'm just saying anything just to say something) but what I can spend is more like $5K of course is not going to be attractive... Be realistic on what is the market price and how much discount you are getting to see how good it is. Now if it is out of your league, that's another story. You can always fight it. I'm sure within reasonable parameters you can get a deal. Again, don't pretend to pay 5 for something it might be 50... 

Sent from my iPhone

[Sean Stall]

Depends.  Peter, did you get quotes for turnkey systems or just for software?  Is your current hardware needing to be upgraded or is it sufficient to run most applications?  Our reseller wants to rip the guts out of my facility regardless of the fact that I'm running workstations that will easily support most applications not just now but for several years to come.

Here in the States we call this Fleecing.

[Timon Mahony]

To be fair to Autodesk on this, they want to make sure everyone is on the correct supported hardware, to make sure that problems can be dealt with easily, for known configurations.

They have a spec. The same way Avid used to, and especially when dealing with the DKU element, you have to be running the 'correct' box.

Cheers

Timon

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[Peter Zacaroli]

The price I was given was based on software only, we're now investigating the hardware to see which bits might be qualified.

[Dermot Shane]

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Sean Stall <se...@ironikdesign.com> wrote:

Depends.  Peter, did you get quotes for turnkey systems or just for software?  Is your current hardware needing to be upgraded or is it sufficient to run most applications?  Our reseller wants to rip the guts out of my facility regardless of the fact that I'm running workstations that will easily support most applications not just now but for several years to come. 

Here in the States we call this Fleecing.

Exactly what we had from Discreet years ago, we owned the hardware (Onyx + Sirus video cards)  and they agreeed to sell us 5 licences of Flame, took the cheque and three months later decided we needed to buy the same hardware all over again at a 200% markup from them....

We got our money back eventualy... and bought Jaleo (now Mystika) 

I'd call that fleecing too....

[Tom Phillips]

I think one of the big issues is they are pushing people towards Flame Premium/Smoke Advanced, when in reality most of the people on this list can easily move forward with Smoke on a Mac. Much lower entry cost, and a toolset that will be an improvement over DS in a great way. 

So, while they are all talking the Linux solutions to you guys, be sure to look hard at the more cost effective one. 

[Joey D'Anna]

It's my impression that a Z800 DS will run smoke or flame, but you may need to replace the GPU. Also if you are running the avid blessed 12GB ram configuration, it may be worth adding more.

Smoke/flame uses AJA for I/O, but uses an SDI daugtercard on the GPU (FX5800) to do monitoring while working.

Mac smoke uses the AJA (or blackmagic) for everything. I'm not sure if linux smoke/flame has that option.

I also dont know what smoke's current storage requirements are, but I think a videoraid SR should more then meet them. I know they don't require autodesk blessed storage anymore.

I'm planning on reaching out to autodesk as well and seeing what my options are, so i'll report back when i know more.

[Sean Stall]

Sorry, Timon.  That's not the way the industry is rolling these days.  Want a history of proprietary hardware and significant markups?  See Avid.  Those who choose not to study history are doomed to repeat it.

S

---
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(O) 860.404.2386   (M) 646.279.8808

(F) 860.404.2735

www.ironikdesign.com
       

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Timon Mahony <ti...@empiredesign.com> wrote:

[Sean Stall]

I'm being told by our reseller that our z800's with dual HexCore procs, 48GB RAM, FX4800 cards and 850mb throuput for RAID storage wouldn't be sufficient.  If it were as simple as replacing the Nvidia card then no problem.  Otherwise, it was nice knowing you.

And for those of you who want to defend AD, how many own your own shops?  There's much more to it than just the types of work you bring in.

S

---
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Owner|Lead Artist
Ironik Design & Post, inc.              _
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(O) 860.404.2386   (M) 646.279.8808

(F) 860.404.2735

www.ironikdesign.com
       

[Joey D'Anna]

I think a big problem with moving a DS suite to mac smoke is that there just isn't a great way to go about it right now.

Sure you could buy an (old, and not as good as your existing z800/z820) mac pro, then buy all the cards - but now your adding a significant hardware cost, plus totally switching platforms, which may or may not work in your infrastructure. 

And while the new mac pro is still a good ways out, your next upgrade is going to again require all new hardware, because your going to have to move to thunderbolt peripherals - which, while inexpensive, powerful, and really cool - again, may or may not fit into your infrastructure.

So do you wait for a new mac pro, and move to mac smoke/thunderbolt? It wouldn't be a bad way to go.

DS is still perfectly usable for just about everything, especially if you add on a secondary machine tied to it with some more modern software for converting newer formats that DS cant handle, which is what i've got at the moment.

I would love to see a detailed performance comparison of mac smoke vs linux smoke. At this point, i've only used mac smoke in the past few years, so im not sure if linux smoke is just as quick, quicker, less quick, etc.

[Joey D'Anna]

wow. what can you even buy today that beats that?

have you had any problems with that much ram messing DS up?

the offical avid config is a 1gig stick in each slot, so 12gigs.

Whats your memory slot configuration?

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[Tony Quinsee-Jover]

From: ds-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ds-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joey D'Anna

the offical avid config is a 1gig stick in each slot, so 12gigs.

 

That's the official MINIMUM, not maximum.

 

You can stick 128GB in there if you're rich enough.

 

Tony

[Victor Wolansky]

The kind of support that Autoded gives on their machines is a bit different than what Avid did…   knowing exactly what you have allows them to give you solutions in just a few hours, and if something is broken, you get a replacement part ship to you overnight… 

 

And to be honest with you, last time I upgraded my system, after getting their price for the hardware, I went myself to HP.com and compared the price like if I was going to purchase that myself, and difference was not more than a mere 12%....  

 

The minimum spec for Flame Premium is Dual eight cores…

 

Last time around, the system was a turnkey, you could buy on your own Memory, GPU, etc, but the system had to come to your place working and tested by AD, then you can rip it apart and change stuff if you want to.

 

 

Din’t they said that you could keep your current hardware and system working and get another one? Its not a tarade as I heard… 

[Dermot Shane]

on DS you really want a absolute minimum of 16gig for longform, 24gig is much better

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[Victor Wolansky]

It should, as long as it have the required dual 8 cores….

 

 

 

From: ds-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ds-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joey D'Anna
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 12:37 PM
To: ds-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Smoke vs flame comparison

 

It's my impression that a Z800 DS will run smoke or flame, but you may need to replace the GPU. Also if you are running the avid blessed 12GB ram configuration, it may be worth adding more.

[Troy Thompson]

> I'm being told by our reseller that our z800's with dual HexCore procs, 48GB RAM, FX4800 cards and 850mb throuput for RAID storage wouldn't be sufficient. If it were as simple as replacing the Nvidia card then no problem.

My opinion is the pricing is incredibly attractive for the software. Not being able to use our existing hardware might be a deal breaker for us - we'll see, I'm attending a demo myself next week.

> And for those of you who want to defend AD, how many own your own shops? There's much more to it than just the types of work you bring in.

100% agree. Also did you ask what the annual subscription costs are? They're really pushing Flame Premium, obviously, but the annual for that is outside what we could do as a company based on our work.

Troy

[Victor Wolansky]

I put in there 128 and cost me only $2K … is that a rich thing these days? For RAM…  

 

From: ds-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ds-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dermot Shane
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 12:57 PM
To: ds-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Smoke vs flame comparison

 

on DS you really want a absolute minimum of 16gig for longform, 24gig is much better

[Timon Mahony]

Sean, 

this isn't proprietary, it's all off the shelf. It's about 'supported' specs. To guarantee performance, and not end up in a world of pain re: multiple flavours of GFX card, Infiniband and the like.

I imagine all developers have 'prescribed minimum specs' and will specify the kind of GPU etc. Especially as the Linux kernel is modified to allow the performance, for specific cards etc.

You wouldn't go Bentley and ask them to put a Dashboard and Badge on your Ford, and still expect the Bentley experience?

Cheers

Timon

[Sean Stall]

Then you're just developing software to suit certain hardware, not developing software to appeal to a myriad of platforms and infrastructures.  I find it ironic you used Bentley in your metaphor.  Show of hands for all you Bentley owners please?  No?  Nobody?

___
Sean E. Stall
Owner/Lead Artist

Ironik Design & Post, inc.

[Joey D'Anna]

They're all at the mechanics..

[Sean Stall]

Troy, I'll bet a king's ransom, or Flame Premium, that you and I have the same reseller and believe me, he's no Einstein.  ;-)

___
Sean E. Stall
Owner/Lead Artist

Ironik Design & Post, inc.

[Dunn, Shannon G [COM]]

Sean, you really seem to have an agenda here.   Call me crazy…

 

From: ds-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ds-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Stall
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 12:27 PM
To: DS-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Smoke vs flame comparison

 

Troy, I'll bet a king's ransom, or Flame Premium, that you and I have the same reseller and believe me, he's no Einstein.  ;-)

---

This e-mail may contain Sprint proprietary information intended for the sole use of the recipient(s). Any use by others is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message.

[Timon Mahony]

Sean, 

No irony intended, I don't own one, but I given a lottery win, then yes I'd be off to Crewe before you can say Mulsanne!

The whole point of the Systems Products, and why they are developed the way they are, is Performance, knowing that the client from Universal/Fox or Sony is not going to be sat there waiting for ages whilst you make changes. It's about then having the power to deliver the images quickly.

It's about finding the right hardware to guarantee that performance, in combination with the right OS, not the other way around.

There is a certain level of performance expected by those clients, they have the same kit on the 'lot'. It's reassuring for them.

So in that way, yes probably very much like a Bentley.

Cheers

Timon

[Timon Mahony]

I think I may have dealt with him via our NY office! I know what you mean.

Speak to the 'desk' directly.

Cheers

Timon

[Victor Wolansky]

You can’t make Flame and Lustre to run on a myriad of platforms, you need to choose one that the performance and power to do what you need….  And do it every single time…

 

Look at what happens with MC for example….  You have any kind of trouble and you call support, you are going to get as much chances to get a solution as you get to be the first man on Mars…. There are so many thing s it can go wrong because they don’t know what hardware you have or version of OS with fixes or other stuff in there….

 

Every single time I have an issue with a Machine in here, I get a specialist connected to my system in less than 15 minutes since I reported it… yes 15 minutes!!!! And in some cases I even had a special build of the software just for me to fix an issue that no one else had…

 

Get that from Avid or others…  it cost money… that my boss never complain to pay since have a system that is always up and running, and always delivering.

 

I truly hope they NEVER EVER start making software for the masses and running it on any trash out there… it will be the end.

 

 

 

From: ds-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ds-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Stall
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 1:22 PM
To: DS-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Smoke vs flame comparison

 

Then you're just developing software to suit certain hardware, not developing software to appeal to a myriad of platforms and infrastructures.  I find it ironic you used Bentley in your metaphor.  Show of hands for all you Bentley owners please?  No?  Nobody?

Timon

 

 

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Victor Wolansky <vic...@e3post.com> wrote:

Or may be depending on what you do or expect to do or what your clients are, what is attractive to one is not to other. I highly doubt you received prices too different. But may be if I get a price of $50K (I'm just saying anything just to say something) but what I can spend is more like $5K of course is not going to be attractive... Be realistic on what is the market price and how much discount you are getting to see how good it is. Now if it is out of your league, that's another story. You can always fight it. I'm sure within reasonable parameters you can get a deal. Again, don't pretend to pay 5 for something it might be 50... 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 21, 2013, at 12:08 PM, Peter Zacaroli <peter.z...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Sean,

 

We're a small facility in London, maybe there's a difference in the US/UK pricing due to exchange rates or something.

On 21 August 2013 16:17, Sean Stall <se...@ironikdesign.com> wrote:

Peter, I don't know who you work for but the 'crossgrade' pricing I received from our local reseller was anything but attractive.

 

---
Sean E. Stall
Owner|Lead Artist
Ironik Design & Post, inc.              _
56 E. Main St.,  Suite 203,  Avon,  CT  06001

(O) 860.404.2386   (M) 646.279.8808

(F) 860.404.2735

www.ironikdesign.com
       

 

 

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Peter Zacaroli <peter.z...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sean Stall]

Well Shannon, if my agenda is to not fall into the same trap that Avid cornered us into by having to buy their marked up hardware due to their 'qualified' and supported configurations then yes, guilty as charged.  The quotes I received in no way reflected the two conference calls I had with AD and the reseller with AD on as well.  If AD is serious about grabbing up this user base it needs to seriously understand the market for their specific products and the economics that surround it.

___
Sean E. Stall
Owner/Lead Artist
Ironik Design & Post, inc.

[Sean B]

I would also like to see a feature comparison between Smoke on Mac and Smoke Advanced aside from being able to run on an HP Workstation.

[Dermot Shane]

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Victor Wolansky <vic...@e3post.com> wrote:

Every single time I have an issue with a Machine in here, I get a specialist connected to my system in less than 15 minutes since I reported it… yes 15 minutes!!!! And in some cases I even had a special build of the software just for me to fix an issue that no one else had…

 

Get that from Avid or others…  

SGO for sure, they respond that fast... and will they respond that quickly if you are not on the beta team as Victor is?

I have been a beta pilot for software where i have had really fast turnaround from the dev's with my issues, but the general users do not see anywhere near the responce....

 

[Dermot Shane]

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Dermot Shane <dermot...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Victor Wolansky <vic...@e3post.com> wrote:

Every single time I have an issue with a Machine in here, I get a specialist connected to my system in less than 15 minutes since I reported it… yes 15 minutes!!!! And in some cases I even had a special build of the software just for me to fix an issue that no one else had…

 

Get that from Avid or others…  

SGO for sure, they respond that fast...

not well worded.... revised (some may say edited) 

and will AD respond that quickly if you are not on the beta team as Victor is?

[Timon Mahony]

In the UK you do either by ringing your friendly neighbourhood reseller, or ringing the 'Desk' themselves. If people are available you get put straight through.

I too am a 'Beta Type' but, I have neither seen or heard of any difference in response,

[Victor Wolansky]

Support team and beta team are different, they are not even in the same place. I pay for it… just that.

 

From: ds-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ds-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dermot Shane
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 1:57 PM
To: ds-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Smoke vs flame comparison

 

 

 

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Victor Wolansky <vic...@e3post.com> wrote:

--

[Ken Sirulnick]

Nice Sean...

[empi]

Hi Sean,

 

We are trying to be as flexible in terms of options as possible. First if cost is an issue, Smoke for Mac is an extremely cost effective solution with a very powerful toolset. This can be purchased both from channel partners and from the e-store. We have not focused on messaging it much because we figured that most people would know this and could download the trial at any time. We definitely are not forcing people to go the turnkey route and Smoke Mac was introduced for exactly that purpose.

 

However if you do want to go the turnkey route then we want to be as flexible as we can in getting you there. Our assumption is that most DS owners purchased turnkey systems because they wanted high-end, one-stop-shop solutions with a high level of customer service and this is what they would want from Autodesk too. This is what we offer and yes it does come at a higher price. We only have limited supported configurations for Smoke Advanced/Flame Premium so it does depend entirely on what your current DS configuration is.

 

As people have mentioned elsewhere, the advantage of turnkey is the support you get. We do rigorous certification, which is costly, which is why we do not support a huge range of options. Plus we continue to certify new releases on older platform to maximize longevity. This level of guarantee is, for many customers. a major advantage - but not necessarily for all.

 

I am sorry your experience was disappointing and  I have also escalated your concerns to our Sales Manager.

 

Maurice Patel

Autodesk

[Sean B]

Hi Maurice

Is there a document that outlines the differences between Smoke for Mac and Smoke Advanced (aside from Linux and the support offerings)?

[Sean Stall]

Thanks for chiming in, Maurice.  Actually, if AD has been paying attention then they'd see that Avid and many manufacturers alike have made their software quite agnostic and have done away with proprietary hardware or 'necessary' gear.  All of my workstations are built from the ground up, none turnkey and all meet the specs for DS and then some.  MC is supported, Symphony is supported, Adobe CS is supported, Nuke is supported, I could go on.  As I just told the NYC AD office, I have no problem investigating all of your products as long as there are only minor alterations to my current infrastructure.  The days of the $100K workstations are over.  I think your product line is more tailored to the Broadway Video's, Postworks, Charlex's, Dreamworks of the world.  Perhaps Smac is the way to go as I hack up one of my existing workstations.  Just don't try to tell me that $60K-$90K is a crossgrade from DS, and a bargain at that.

Regards,

---
Sean E. Stall
Owner|Lead Artist
Ironik Design & Post, inc.              _
56 E. Main St.,  Suite 203,  Avon,  CT  06001

(O) 860.404.2386   (M) 646.279.8808

(F) 860.404.2735

www.ironikdesign.com
       

[Victor Wolansky]

If you can get for 60K what normally cost 100K yes it is a bargain. May be the product isn't just what you need. Don't forget AD here is trying to capture some new clients, making a good offer, but can't screw current user base by giving it to you for free, neither fix the disaster Avid caused. I would be more than happy if I can get for 60 what normally is 100.  

Sent from my iPhone

[Sean Stall]

Victor, I'm not saying AD is trying to screw anyone.  I'm saying that they and their resellers need to understand who the majority of DS owners are and ultimately what their needs will be.  The quotes we received reflected nothing we talked about in conversation.  I have no inclination to completely revamp beautifully robust workstations that can accommodate a myriad of applications not only now but for some time to come.  What I need, what most of us need, is an application that we can migrate to over the course of time through a transitional process that allows us training time while still being able to operate at an optimal level without a hefty investment.  Perhaps at a software level their products make sense but that remains to be seen.

---
Sean E. Stall
Owner|Lead Artist
Ironik Design & Post, inc.              _
56 E. Main St.,  Suite 203,  Avon,  CT  06001

(O) 860.404.2386   (M) 646.279.8808

(F) 860.404.2735

www.ironikdesign.com
       

[John Heiser]

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Sean Stall <se...@ironikdesign.com> wrote:

Just don't try to tell me that $60K-$90K is a crossgrade from DS, and a bargain at that.

An observation: Remember, DS used to be priced higher than that. Those of us who paid $127k for DS in 1998 thought the $60k turnkey price Avid introduced for DS a few years ago was pretty awesome, and then the $30k build-it-yourself cost was awesomer. Development stopped as the price dropped, and now the product has gone away (an oversimplification, yes). As price-driven as the software of our industry has become, a company that panders to price will soon find itself absent the ability to support continued development. Cheap or good, pick one.

I say that knowing fully that there's no chance in heck that the bean counters who run our company will ever want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a replacement system for my DS, so I'm probably destined for CC or Smac. That makes me sad.

----
john heiser | senior video editor
o2ideas
birmingham, alabama, USA

http://vimeo.com/johnheiser

[Sean Stall]

John, see Derek Herr's comments on the other thread regarding software pricing (Autodesk Offer to Avid DS Owners).  Had I been met with that straight on, which based on our conversation should have been their first approach, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.  Perhaps a very different one.

Sean

---
Sean E. Stall
Owner|Lead Artist
Ironik Design & Post, inc.              _
56 E. Main St.,  Suite 203,  Avon,  CT  06001

(O) 860.404.2386   (M) 646.279.8808

(F) 860.404.2735

www.ironikdesign.com
       

[John Heiser]

I just read that. Very interesting information, and I agree with your assessment completely.

----
john heiser | senior video editor
o2ideas
birmingham, alabama, USA

http://vimeo.com/johnheiser

[Bob Maple]

On 8/21/2013 3:09 PM, Sean Stall wrote:

> I have no
> inclination to completely revamp beautifully robust workstations that
> can accommodate a myriad of applications not only now but for some time
> to come.

Keep in mind that AD's offerings don't run on Windows. You'd have to
dual-boot from another HD or partition, have separate media storage...


--

| Bob Maple
| Stick it to the NSA - Get my public key at http://burner.com/about/
|
| When love is gone, there's always justice. And when justice is gone,
| there's always force. And when force is gone, there's always Mom.
| Hi, Mom! -Laurie Anderson

[Sean Stall]

Bob, true with dual boot, not true with storage.  We are/were totally prepared to do that.

S

---
Sean E. Stall
Owner|Lead Artist
Ironik Design & Post, inc.              _
56 E. Main St.,  Suite 203,  Avon,  CT  06001

(O) 860.404.2386   (M) 646.279.8808

(F) 860.404.2735

www.ironikdesign.com
       

[Bob Maple]

On 8/21/2013 3:41 PM, Sean Stall wrote:

> Bob, true with dual boot, not true with storage. We are/were totally
> prepared to do that.

Is it already centralized then? Otherwise I'm not sure what sort of
performance or "oh shit" factor there is writing to directly-connected
storage as NTFS under Linux, etc. Or I suppose you just split the
storage into partitions.

[Mark Hollis]

I think Sean would be the last person I would expect to buy an Apple system.

Just sayin'

---

When a Library expels a book of mine and leaves an unexpurgated Bible lying around where unprotected youth and age can get hold of it, the deep unconscious irony of it delights me and doesn’t anger me.

-Mark Twain

--

[Victor Wolansky]

Flame will not work with an NTFS partition. But if you have a system like the DDP the same partition will mount as NTFS when you boot Windows, and as Linux when you boot Linux.

Although font expect to make sense out of how Flame writes to its partition. No program other than Flame will understand the order. Yes the content. But will be all random frames.

Sent from my iPhone

[Sean Stall]

We have a Mac system in-house Mark, thanks.

---
Sean E. Stall
Owner|Lead Artist
Ironik Design & Post, inc.              _
56 E. Main St.,  Suite 203,  Avon,  CT  06001

(O) 860.404.2386   (M) 646.279.8808

(F) 860.404.2735

www.ironikdesign.com
       

[Tony Quinsee-Jover]

Spot on.

Sent by magic over t'interweb

[empi]

Hi Sean,

 

We don't really have such a document because we really did not have a need/demand for it until now :)

The way we differentiate our business is between Creative Finishing (Flame Premium) and Video Production (Smoke for Mac)  a large part of the value is based around levels of certification, support and service. When it comes to software capabilities it is probably better to understand where the products are going rather than where they are today because they all came from the same roots.

 

Smoke Advanced is actually a component of the Flame Premium product. Flame Premium was launched as we began to integrate shot based effects, timeline-based editing and color grading into a single finishing application. Today Flame and Smoke are now one application offered in two components but ultimately all part of the Flame Premium product strategy. A link to the differences between Flame and Smoke Advanced was posted previously. Smoke for Mac was introduced and essentially has much of the Smoke Advanced functionality but is offered as a software only product. It was introduced to address the broader professional video market already using desktop software which is why we do not compare it to our high end solutions directly. It is not being explicitly positioned as a lite version of Smoke Advanced. Although it is derived from Smoke Advanced its focus going forward will be on the needs of desktop video editors and its feature sets will be driven by that user-profile. This means that it could even have features that our high-end products do not. On the high end we will continue to focus on the creative tools that have long been our hallmark as well as making sure we offer robust scalable workflows that can meet the demands of high-stress, fast-turnaround, production.

 

we see opportunities in both worlds and the choice really is whether you see your business evolving along the lines of general purpose editing or high-end creative services and the level of support and service you need to make sure your systems remain up and running at all times. 

 

maurice

 

Usual corporate legal disclaimer: Of course our plans can change at any time and we reserve the right to do so.

[Tom Phillips]

Thanks for that Maurice - one of the best explanations of the main line differences between Flame Premium/Smoke Advanced & Smoke for Mac I have ever heard - AND I think it will really help a lot of people on this list to have a better idea of where they should really focus.

Thank you.

Tom

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[Sean B]

Thanks Maurice. The impression I get is that, in terms of functionality, Smoke Advanced without Flame doesn't offer a tremendous advantage over Smoke for Mac. 

[Joey D'Anna]

I would like to know more about format compatibility.

Smoke for Mac can link to and playback dnx and prores quicktimes in real time.

In the past, to get those types into the Linux boxes needed conversion, or processing via an external wiretapgateway.

Is that still the case?

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[Victor Wolansky]

No, it's not the case anymore. If the storage have the speed. It will play. I do not hard import stuff anymore

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[Victor Wolansky]

Flame products can read Prores without a Mac. I believe Smoke Advanced alone can't. Just a silly things with licenses from Apple as far as I know. 

Sent from my iPhone