23.98 online to deliver a 1080i 59.94 Master?

[ccon...@67nights.com]

Hey all,

 

I have an upcoming project (not a DS one, but ah well) where I have to deliver a 1080i59.94 master to the network, but the company I'm working with is pushing to do the online in 23.98, and then do a 3:2 pulldown at the very end to create their master (maybe through Teranex, Avid, or After Effects, I don't know.) 

 

They're doing their offline in 23.98, and the show contains 23.98 shot footage, archival footage (probably a lot of 29.97) which was converted to 23.98, and animations that can be rendered at 23.98 or 59.94. I think their attitude is they should finish in the frame rate they shot in, although I'm used to finishing in the frame rate I'm delivering in - as the I see the online as the final polish. 

 

Anyway, I'm curious as if anyone else out there has been delivering masters this way and might have any insights, or things I should look out for.

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

 

 

And if you're curious, here are more long-winded details.....

 

I'm still trying to convince them to do a 59.94 delivery and here's my thinking....

- any 29.97 archival converted to 23.98 probably doesn't look great will probably look worse when pushed back to 59.94.

- animations rendered at 59.94 will just be smoother than 23.98 with a 3:2 pulldown, and a director might not be happy with a more stuttery version.

- moire... might this be more pronounced or noticeable in the 59.94 version when seeing the interlaced fields as opposed to just looking at the 23.98 progressive frames in an online? (I'm not sure on this one.)

- the network might be picky about clean cuts in certain areas, as sometimes we do have to separate "show open" and "show body" at an exact frame accurate timecode.  Also, on the countdown, I'm guessing they'll want clean cuts.

- there are always late fixes and insert editing in this scenario would mean figuring out and matching the 3:2 cadence, right? Uggh.

 

 

The only pros I can think of for a 23.98 online are...

- The continuous cadence of the 3:2 pulldown at the end might lend to a cleaner framerate transfer from 1080i59.94 to 1080i50 later on. Is this true?  Since we're not delivering a 23.98 master it might be a slight benefit.

- The assistant editors will have less frame rate conversions to do for the online (but I will probably deal with more issues)

- I *might* get to color correct with the camera original files.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Glenn Sakatch]

We usually do a 23.976 Universal Master and then convert to 59.94 for broadcast delivery. The 23.976 master is desirable because it can convert to other formats fairly easily. (PAL and 59.94). Your audio will stay in sync for the conversion to 59.94. You will have to be aware of your finished time in 23.976 as it will be slightly different than the number the broadcaster is asking for (at 59.94). There us an audio conversion needed to go to pal. I usually do the conversion to 59.94 right in DS.

[ccon...@67nights.com]

Thanks for the info Glen.  I hear a lot of places are doing 23.976 masters (and some networks accept them)  I am curious to hear how common it is.

 

I've done "film" onlines at 23.976, but only when the all the source footage has been 23.976. The universal master is definitely a plus, but unfortunately I believe in this case any cross conversions will be done from the the 59.94 version as it's the only tape we're delivering.  

 

I believe a progressive master is also better for digital delivery (I think iTunes insists on progressive), so maybe it'll help future proof it?

 

Chris

 

 

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[Roy Janke]

Chris,

 

I always finish in the frame rate in which the production was shot.  I used to do a lot of 23.976 and we created the master as such.  Then had our equipement room pull a dub/conversion to 59.94i.  If there was a credit roll, I would capture the clean, post-conversion credit bed back into the system, render out the credits at 59.94i and replace them on the new 59.94i master for a smooth roll.  These days however, despite being in Toronto, the majority of the shows I online are shot at 1080p/25…again I post them at that rate, but then we send it out to Deluxe for their RTFit conversion to 59.94i.  This was a production decision strongly influenced by sales.  We’ve since ditched the credit roll in favour of individual cards as that removes the necessity to replace the credits on the 59.94i master.

 

Roy.

 

 

Roy Janke | Senior Editor | DS Artist

System:  HP Z820 (Dual 8-Core) | 32GB RAM | Nvidia Quadro K5000                DS 11.1.1 AJA | Symphony Nitris DX 6.5.2                Windows 7 Corporate 64-Bit   CTV Television Inc. 9 Channel Nine Court Scarborough, Ontario M1S 4B5

[Ken Sirulnick]

We've done this a lot as well.  As Glenn said, check your timings with DF 29.97 TC.  You can display this if you are in MC.

KEN

[Glenn Sakatch]

We just make the 23.98 for ourselves. Then use it for all dubs...or as a submaster for captioning for the broadcast master we send off to the networks

ccon...@67nights.com wrote:

Thanks for the info Glen.  I hear a lot of places are doing 23.976 masters (and some networks accept them)  I am curious to hear how common it is.

 

I've done "film" onlines at 23.976, but only when the all the source footage has been 23.976. The universal master is definitely a plus, but unfortunately I believe in this case any cross conversions will be done from the the 59.94 version as it's the only tape we're delivering.  

 

I believe a progressive master is also better for digital delivery (I think iTunes insists on progressive), so maybe it'll help future proof it?

 

Chris

 

 

On September 9, 2014 at 10:34 PM Glenn Sakatch <ed...@nucleus.com> wrote:

We usually do a 23.976 Universal Master and then convert to 59.94 for broadcast delivery. The 23.976 master is desirable because it can convert to other formats fairly easily. (PAL and 59.94). Your audio will stay in sync for the conversion to 59.94. You will have to be aware of your finished time in 23.976 as it will be slightly different than the number the broadcaster is asking for (at 59.94). There us an audio conversion needed to go to pal. I usually do the conversion to 59.94 right in DS.

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[Glenn Sakatch]

Hey Roy...that's the second time I've noticed you mention 25 instead of 24. You have Canadian shows being shot at 25?. Which ones and what is the thinking behind that? Wouldn't that make audio sync a bit of an issue?

Roy Janke <Roy....@bellmedia.ca> wrote:

Chris,

 

I always finish in the frame rate in which the production was shot.  I used to do a lot of 23.976 and we created the master as such.  Then had our equipement room pull a dub/conversion to 59.94i.  If there was a credit roll, I would capture the clean, post-conversion credit bed back into the system, render out the credits at 59.94i and replace them on the new 59.94i master for a smooth roll.  These days however, despite being in Toronto, the majority of the shows I online are shot at 1080p/25…again I post them at that rate, but then we send it out to Deluxe for their RTFit conversion to 59.94i.  This was a production decision strongly influenced by sales.  We’ve since ditched the credit roll in favour of individual cards as that removes the necessity to replace the credits on the 59.94i master.

 

Roy.

 

 

Roy Janke | Senior Editor | DS Artist

System:  HP Z820 (Dual 8-Core) | 32GB RAM | Nvidia Quadro K5000                DS 11.1.1 AJA | Symphony Nitris DX 6.5.2                Windows 7 Corporate 64-Bit   CTV Television Inc. 9 Channel Nine Court Scarborough, Ontario M1S 4B5

 

 

 

 

From: ds-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ds-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ccon...@67nights.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2014 10:50 PM
To: ds-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 23.98 online to deliver a 1080i 59.94 Master?

 

Thanks for the info Glen.  I hear a lot of places are doing 23.976 masters (and some networks accept them)  I am curious to hear how common it is.

[Roy Janke]

I have a set of series for Discovery Canada that are shot and posted all in 25p…yes, we’re an oddity in Canada I’m sure.

 

The current productions are:

Mega Speed

Mighty Planes

Mighty Ships

Mighty Cruise Ships

 

Past productions:

Forensic Factor (AKA Case Crackers in the USA)

Nerve Center (AKA Command Center in the USA)

And a slew of specials and one offs.

 

Since everything through post, both video and audio, is done at 25p and a 25p master is delivered to Deluxe for their proprietary RTFit process to create the 59.94i master sync is not an issue.

 

When we first started working in HD, we had a series called Sex Files that we did in 23.976 which was then reformatted into one hour episodes and sold as Sexual Secrets.  From what I understand the push for 25p was driven by our sales and distribution.  I assume (yes, a dangerous thing) being able to deliver native frame rate to Europe and other former PAL nations (as opposed to HD 25p) was a big deal to them.

[Igor Ridanovic]

This is the most common way of doing it. However, consider that 29.97 to 23.98 conversion sucks, especially if the sources are interlaced. You will degrade these archival sources to make them fit into a 23.98 sequence, only to convert everything back to 59.94i in the end.

 

If the majority of the show consisted of such legacy material this would not be the best workflow.

 

On the other hand, finishing in 59.94i is the great equalizer. Both of these frame rates will look good in 59.94i, but the 3:2 cadence will be broken should anyone need to go back to 23.98 in the future.

 

Igor Ridanovic

Kappa Studios, Inc.

 

3619 W. Magnolia Blvd.

Burbank, CA 91505

(818) 843-3400

 

http://www.kappastudios.com

 

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From: ds-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ds-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ccon...@67nights.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2014 7:09 PM
To: ds-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: 23.98 online to deliver a 1080i 59.94 Master?

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[ccon...@67nights.com]

Thanks Roy.  That's a good tip about the credit roll.  I've dealt with the dreaded 23.976 roll a few times, and know it can definitely look stuttery.  It might also be a good fix for any animations that look bad as well.

 

Chris

[Igor Ridanovic]

But it's also trivial to take the 23;98 credit roll preset in DS and apply it in a 59.94i sequence which you can insert into the converted master. Even the motion is not as perfect as it can be, it will always have less strobing than in 23.98.

 

Igor Ridanovic

Kappa Studios, Inc.

 

3619 W. Magnolia Blvd.

Burbank, CA 91505

(818) 843-3400

 

http://www.kappastudios.com

 

From: ds-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ds-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ccon...@67nights.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:01 PM
To: ds-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: 23.98 online to deliver a 1080i 59.94 Master?

[ccon...@67nights.com]

Thanks Igor.

 

And good point, I'm fully expecting the video 29.97 footage that was squeezed into to 23.98 to look bad.  I also think that pulling it back to 59.94 from a wonky 23.98 version will make it even worse.  If we go 23.98, I'll cross my fingers that the directors/producers don't complain about the video quality for those clips.

 

I guess the overall compromise is whether to go with a 59.94 online for better looking archival clips (29.97 source)  and animations in a 60i world, or take a quality hit in those areas for a better looking overall show for 50i world.

 

Has anyone used this method when they have to deliver the show with frame accurate segments (show open, show body, breaks, etc.)?  If I hit a split field frame within the continuous cadence at one of these points, I'm guessing I'll just insert edit a clean cut and break the 3:2 pattern. (which I guess would be similar to a 59.94 online anyway.)

 

Chris    

 

[Roy Janke]

Also, I use a similar trick when doing a credit roll in 25p.  I create a 50i sequence within the same project and cut in the credit portion and render.  The final render automatically shows up back in my 25p sequence and rolls nice and smooth.

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From: ds-...@googlegroups.com [ds-...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Igor Ridanovic [ig...@kappastudios.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 4:06 PM