Drop your DF13 connector experiences here!

[Meier Lorenz]

Hi all,

I would love to hear what you think about the DF13 connectors - note that they’re trying to be your friends by keeping the connection safe - this video shows how they rotate slightly during locking and unlocking, and how they can / should be operated without pulling on the wires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfu8M8t2fWY

For dev setups (where you don’t care about vibration safety), the tip is to cut the retention tabs. The reason I ask is that I’m also expecting some not-so-good experiences, but I’m hunting exactly for those, so please be open 8).
I’d also love to hear about any useful tips / hints.

-Lorenz

[Jason Short]

I don't think DF13 connectors belong on the outside of a product in my opinion. External cables should be shielded and include molded strain relief.
The thin gauge wires exposed on a craft make it look amateur and unfinished.

Jason

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[Meier Lorenz]

Hi Jason,

I’m all with you, but have you seen examples that would fit into a typical copter or aircraft fuselage? I have been looking quite a bit for small connectors satisfying these properties and the budget, but no luck so far. Going all 0.1” (or similar-sized) would mean that the autopilot would need to become multiple times the size of Pixhawk to accommodate all IO, or that all peripherals would need to move immediately to CAN (which sounds medium-term great).

-Lorenz

[Robert Lefebvre]

I agree for the most part.  But it's tricky...  Strain relief is a big deal, and DF13 connectors make this even worse because you have to pull on them so hard to disconnect them.  I end up making my own strain relief boots with hot glue.  Not perfect, but (probably?) better than nothing.

There's only a few problems with having shielded/booted cables.  Obviously cost.  But also that it results in fixed length cables.  With DJI, this results in people often having bundles of extra cable length, which doesn't necessarily make things look any more professional.  I sometimes cut and splice cables to length.  There are ways to make them look a little better, just twisting them tightly, or putting a sheath or shrinkwrap over them.

In an ideal world, I'd like nice finished cables, but we'd have to make sure that they are available in many lengths. 

As for the DR13 question, it's love-hate for me, for all the usual reasons.  I don't really have any particular insights. 

[Craig Elder]

Rob, there is no reason to pull hard on the DF13s. Use your fingernail to release the locking mechanism and they come apart very easily.

[Robert Lefebvre]

I've seen the videos, but have not figured out the magic to make them easy to separate.

[Meier Lorenz]

Seconding Craig, I really recommend watching the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfu8M8t2fWY

As you can see, very short fingernails perfectly do. DF13 connectors are locked, unlock them, then disconnect. Same as unlocking the door before trying to walk through it 8). The question is merely - how can we educate people, or do you even fear we can’t?

-Lorenz

On 13 Jan 2014, at 17:14, Craig Elder <cr...@3drobotics.com<mailto:cr...@3drobotics.com>> wrote:

Rob, there is no reason to pull hard on the DF13s. Use your fingernail to release the locking mechanism and they come apart very easily.

On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 8:00 AM, Robert Lefebvre <robert....@gmail.com<mailto:robert....@gmail.com>> wrote:
I agree for the most part. But it's tricky... Strain relief is a big deal, and DF13 connectors make this even worse because you have to pull on them so hard to disconnect them. I end up making my own strain relief boots with hot glue. Not perfect, but (probably?) better than nothing.

There's only a few problems with having shielded/booted cables. Obviously cost. But also that it results in fixed length cables. With DJI, this results in people often having bundles of extra cable length, which doesn't necessarily make things look any more professional. I sometimes cut and splice cables to length. There are ways to make them look a little better, just twisting them tightly, or putting a sheath or shrinkwrap over them.

In an ideal world, I'd like nice finished cables, but we'd have to make sure that they are available in many lengths.

As for the DR13 question, it's love-hate for me, for all the usual reasons. I don't really have any particular insights.

On 13 January 2014 10:47, Jason Short <jason...@mac.com<mailto:jason...@mac.com>> wrote:
I don't think DF13 connectors belong on the outside of a product in my opinion. External cables should be shielded and include molded strain relief.
The thin gauge wires exposed on a craft make it look amateur and unfinished.

Jason

On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Meier Lorenz <l...@inf.ethz.ch<mailto:l...@inf.ethz.ch>> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I would love to hear what you think about the DF13 connectors - note that they’re trying to be your friends by keeping the connection safe - this video shows how they rotate slightly during locking and unlocking, and how they can / should be operated without pulling on the wires.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfu8M8t2fWY
>
> For dev setups (where you don’t care about vibration safety), the tip is to cut the retention tabs. The reason I ask is that I’m also expecting some not-so-good experiences, but I’m hunting exactly for those, so please be open 8).
> I’d also love to hear about any useful tips / hints.
>
> -Lorenz
>
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[Bill Bonney]

Or get the right tool http://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Heavy-duty-Spudger/IF145-013 plastic square end of a spudger works to release then as well

Being made of plastic it doesn’t damage the connector like a screwdriver.

The problem with any connector that needs to come apart, but not accidentally there will always be some trade-off

Bill

On Jan 13, 2014, at 8:20 , Meier Lorenz <l...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:

> Seconding Craig, I really recommend watching the video:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfu8M8t2fWY
>
> As you can see, very short fingernails perfectly do. DF13 connectors are locked, unlock them, then disconnect. Same as unlocking the door before trying to walk through it 8). The question is merely - how can we educate people, or do you even fear we can’t?
>
> -Lorenz

> <..snip..>

[Gary McCray]

Hi Lorenz,

I understand the intrinsic attractiveness of the DF13 connector.

It is certainly one of the smallest connectors that can reliably retain a bunch of wires with a solid circuit connection and pretty much no possibility at all it will ever "accidentally" separate.

There are a few downsides however, primarily, they do such a great job of socket retention and their "release" is so hard to operate that their are many circumstances where simple manual removal (as shown in the video) isn't even an option.

If you have your Pixhawk happily sitting there in front of you with no other connectors installed and put in and remove one connector as you show it is possible (for people with longer thumbnails than I have anyway). 

But if you were trying to remove the connector immediately behind the first one you had in while it was also in, I think you'd have a problem too.

I find that I can use one of the long pointy Exacto knife blades to release one side, and then the other and then pop it up from one edge.

Obviously this is a maneuver best done very carefully with at least 2 power magnifiers on your head and the potential for undesired wire cutting remains high.

Worse, I'm an engineer, used to solving intractible problems by methodically thought out and carefully worked through methods.

Somewhat less than 1% of your customer base I think, while Robert and Bill and I might be able to make this work "OK" for us, the average end user doesn't stand a chance.

In fact your video while still not making it look easy, in fact makes it look considerably easier than it normally is with the PX? installed on a copter or in a plane and with the kind of access you normally have and the other connectors being in the way.

For normal end users these things are twice the nightmare they are for us.

And then there is one other small but important issue, the connector crimp terminators for these things cost a fortune, are hard to use and often make less than satisfactory connections.

(Maybe you can point me to a single bare socket crimper that is affordable I haven't been able to find one. The sockets are easy to stick inside the connector.)

(~$1000.00 is too much).

It would be really nice if we the end user could make our own "cables" the length we wanted rather than having to always order "stock" lengths from 3DR or cut and splice the wires in the middle.

Be that as it may at their primary job reliably holding tiny wires wire in in a small space and providing a solid connection they perform beautifully.

Other than that they are a total nightmare.

I can deal with them, more than half of your potential purchasers (cute video notwithstanding) will curse them completely and provide more fuel for that idiot on RC groups who seems to revel in dissing us.

I don't have a better solution, I'm just saying this one has serious problems.

Best Regards,

Gary

[Michael Pursifull]

For easy of checkout, they are also included in many "iphone repair kits" on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_14?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=heavy+duty+spudger&sprefix=heavy+duty+spu%2Caps%2C228&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aheavy+duty+spudger

One "trick" might be to include one with the Pixhawk. For some reason, including a tool and then showing a video causes people to "brute force" it less often...

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[Arthur Benemann]

A great topic to be discussed Lorenz.

I also had problems with the DF13 connectors, sometimes they just "lock too much" and you can end-up damaging them. But that's a great feature too, since I prefer to have problems disconnecting them on the ground to having problems in mid-flight. And most users will just plug them and forget. I think it will always be a trade-off between easy of disconnection and safety (considering our size constrain).

For an improvement, as other suggested, we should all move to CAN. Finding the connector will be lot easier then. This also solves the problem of needing multiple kinds of cables, they will all be just two pairs (maybe just with different lengths). Ideally all subsystems should change too, so what's the lowest cost combination of transceiver + uC with CAN support we can find. 

Hint: I consider that I have some skill with small components (can solder a 0603, maybe a 0402, without optical assistance).

[Arthur Benemann]

Here is one relevant link:

• DF13 crimper tool at Digikey - $768.50 - http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/DF13-TB2630HC/H9994-ND/241820
  

[Gary McCray]

Hi Arthur,

True CAN would be nice, but CAN carries difficulties with licensing among others and for us would require adapting a whole lot of peripherals that currently aren't.

And I agree that if you could plug them in and leave them plugged in DF13 connectors would be a perfect solution.

But you really can't and for a semi-consumer level solution where they do occasionally need to be removed it is just completely unacceptable.

Sadly I don't even know if there is a better connector avaialble that will let you shove as many wires in that small a space.

But we really do need one where you can either just pull on the wires to disconnect it or that has a tab type release.

Best Regards,

Gary

[Stefan Gofferje]

On 01/13/2014 05:08 PM, Meier Lorenz wrote:
> I would love to hear what you think about the DF13 connectors - note that they�re trying to be your friends by keeping the connection safe - this video shows how they rotate slightly during locking and unlocking, and how they can / should be operated without pulling on the wires.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfu8M8t2fWY
>
> For dev setups (where you don�t care about vibration safety), the tip is to cut the retention tabs. The reason I ask is that I�m also expecting some not-so-good experiences, but I�m hunting exactly for those, so please be open 8).
> I�d also love to hear about any useful tips / hints.

I personally hate them but I see the point in using them. For the cables
that go often in and out, I either made adapters to something more
common, say, DuPont (mainly telemetry and OSD) or I use Micro-JST 1.25
(pigtails for $2 or $3 a 10-pack from eBay) which fit perfectly but
don't have the locking mechanism.

-S

--
(o_ Stefan Gofferje | SCLT, MCP, CCSA
//\ Reg'd Linux User #247167 | VCP #2263
V_/_ Heckler & Koch - the original point and click interface

[Tom Coyle]

Hi Lorenz,

I have watched the video and the removal process essentially has the user get his finger nail between the connector and socket interface and gently pry it up. This process is what I do to separate the connector from the socket with a modified fine blade screwdriver that I use to pop the connector up from the socket and once it is loose, separate it from the socket.

Since the DF13 connector has a small lip around the top periphery, maybe a small, "U" shaped tool could be built to slip under the lip and allow the connector to be rocked out of the socket without the need to use one's finger nail?:-)

Regards,

Tom C ArduRover2 Developer

[Matthias Badaire]

Hi,

As it has been said before , the one thing I do not like with df13 is the fact that I can not do my own cable. The crimp tools are way too expensive (the price of my copter). 

M

[Chris Gough]

My 2c on the DF13 connectors: when knocked, surface mount plugs are prone to tearing the traces off the PCB. I like fine through-hole attachment better, I think it's more robust. For example, see:

http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/530470510_sd.pdf

Not suggesting picoblades exactly (you obviously like the DF13's positive buckles), It's just a pet peeve because it's happened to me twice (on the same PX4IO), if it's an uncommon fault then perhaps my board has thermal stress issue and needed another reflow. To late now, it's held together by hot glue :)

Chris Gough

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[Meier Lorenz]

Hi Chris,

Through hole is not really an option, as it would make the boards much more expensive due to the process. They would be available, but no-one will want to pay what they cost ;-). We’ve tried to put additional vias through the footprints to robustify things, but there is a limit unless it again blows up board size.

Cheers,
Lorenz

On 15 Jan 2014, at 13:39, Chris Gough <christoph...@gmail.com<mailto:christoph...@gmail.com>> wrote:

My 2c on the DF13 connectors: when knocked, surface mount plugs are prone to tearing the traces off the PCB. I like fine through-hole attachment better, I think it's more robust. For example, see:

http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/530470510_sd.pdf

Not suggesting picoblades exactly (you obviously like the DF13's positive buckles), It's just a pet peeve because it's happened to me twice (on the same PX4IO), if it's an uncommon fault then perhaps my board has thermal stress issue and needed another reflow. To late now, it's held together by hot glue :)

Chris Gough

On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Matthias Badaire <mbad...@gmail.com<mailto:mbad...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi,
As it has been said before , the one thing I do not like with df13 is the fact that I can not do my own cable. The crimp tools are way too expensive (the price of my copter).
M


On Monday, January 13, 2014 4:08:15 PM UTC+1, Lorenz Meier wrote:
Hi all,

I would love to hear what you think about the DF13 connectors - note that they’re trying to be your friends by keeping the connection safe - this video shows how they rotate slightly during locking and unlocking, and how they can / should be operated without pulling on the wires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfu8M8t2fWY

For dev setups (where you don’t care about vibration safety), the tip is to cut the retention tabs. The reason I ask is that I’m also expecting some not-so-good experiences, but I’m hunting exactly for those, so please be open 8).
I’d also love to hear about any useful tips / hints.

-Lorenz

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[Robert Lefebvre]

Actually Chris, this is a really good point, and I'm glad you brought it up!  I've also had this problem a few times.  Once due to accidental mis-handling, and then a few more times in crashes.

It's an easy way to write-off a board, unfortunately.

[Michael Day]

+1 Mathias.  I hate that the cables are so expensive to make. 

[Gary McCray]

Basically, it seems the bottom line is tiny little non-through hole connectors have a lot of problems.

In particular the DF13:

1. Really hard to remove cable socket from board connector.

    a. Even harder in close spacing and with poor access.

    b. From my experience, the video is a non-existent ideal conditions Joke!

2. Connectors pull off of board (too) easily.

3. Prohibitively expensive manual crimp tools effectively prevent users from making their own cables.

4. Lacks built in or available strain relief and tiny wires break or rip out of socket too easily.

On the other hand:

1. They do a remarkably good job of retaining the wires and forming a solid circuit connection in a high vibration hostile environment.

2. They do take up a remarkably small amount of board space.

3. They seem to be very reliable so long as you aren't trying to disconnect them (or are very, very careful how you do so).

4. Likely any other solution is going to require fewer connectors or more board space (and possibly expense).

In fact, used in a properly designed and debugged airframe, for the most part they should be able to be put in and left alone (as you would expect in a commercial product).

That simple fact greatly ameliorates their down sides.

Clearly we Developers, debuggers, testers and frame builders operate entirely outside of that envelope so our interaction with these connectors is many times higher than the expected or hoped for end consumers would be.

Personally I favor going to more board space and using a high performance microcontroller such as the BeagleBone Black (or Odroid) with a piggyback cape design that will let you concentrate on just adding the devices and connector you need to the cape.

This intrinsically requires serious extra connector(s) to transport signals from board to cape.

But either the distributed processing approach of the PX4FMU - PX4IO or the dual row, dual connector on each side full parallel approach of the BeagleBone seem adequate and athough it is bigger and heavier than it might be, it is an easier to work with solution.

I also know that in the future, tiny is going to be very important, for the really little ones, dedicated controllers with just the wiring solutions needed are going to be required (who knows, maybe even DF13's).

For now we can probably learn to live with DF13's but it doesn't mean we have to like them.

For an end user with a Pixhawk in an Iris, maybe you don't really need to remove them.

For the other intended target end users, they will probably prove to be "problematic".

Have now beat this topic completely to death.

Best Regards,

Gary 

On Monday, January 13, 2014 7:08:15 AM UTC-8, Lorenz Meier wrote:

[Andrew Ferrara]

I found that the best way to release a DF13 connector is to use the blade of an exacto knife. You simply insert the length of the blade underneath the lip of the male connector and rotate the handle which prys the male connector up and out of the female side.

[Robert Lefebvre]

I just use a flat screwdriver.

On 15 January 2014 14:13, Andrew Ferrara <wafe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I found that the best way to release a DF13 connector is to use the blade of an exacto knife. You simply insert the length of the blade underneath the lip of the male connector and rotate the handle which prys the male connector up and out of the female side.

--

[Andrew Chapman]

A couple of little gotchas I've had:

1) Having a worn-out DF13 start to disconnect itself, luckily I noticed during pre-flight. I now realize these cables have a very limited number of connect+disconnect cycles, beyond which you should replace them. So there's no intrinsic problem, just user education that these cables should be considered consumables if you're frequently plugging and unplugging them.

2) Having their tiny cables cut by carbon fiber plate. I have them running through a hole in the bottom plate and vibration had caused it to start cutting through the wires. I now wrap them in electrical tape wherever they go near the edge of a CF plate or anything else potentially hurty

[Bill Bonney]

>2) Having their tiny cables cut by carbon fiber plate.

or use a rubber grommet

http://www.grainger.com/category/rubber-grommets/rubber/raw-materials/ecatalog/N-c1x

Bill

On Jan 17, 2014, at 11:07 , Andrew Chapman <amch...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A couple of little gotchas I've had:
>
> 1) Having a worn-out DF13 start to disconnect itself, luckily I noticed during pre-flight. I now realize these cables have a very limited number of connect+disconnect cycles, beyond which you should replace them. So there's no intrinsic problem, just user education that these cables should be considered consumables if you're frequently plugging and unplugging them.
>
> 2) Having their tiny cables cut by carbon fiber plate. I have them running through a hole in the bottom plate and vibration had caused it to start cutting through the wires. I now wrap them in electrical tape wherever they go near the edge of a CF plate or anything else potentially hurty

<..snip>

[Holger Steinhaus]

I would love to hear what you think about the DF13 connectors - note that they’re trying to be your friends by keeping the connection safe - this video shows how they rotate slightly during locking and unlocking, and how they can / should be operated without pulling on the wires.

Very positive in general. All alternatives I have seen so far (given they are in the about the same size) are worse and less durable (e.g. the older 3DR GPS connector). But sometimes there is a single pair, that is almost impossible to speparate - may be there are different qualities/brands on the market?

Personally I have never missed a crimping tool - I bought a bunch of single wires and housings from RS components. For 20 EUR you get almost a lifetime supply (about two cents per contact plus about 25 cents per housing), different lengths and two colors are available. 

I would regret to see larger and heavier connectors in the future. Even if my focus is on larger copters close to 5kg, weight is a big issue for me. My weight budget for the whole flight control is usually about 65g, so no way to fly around with fancy plastic cases or heavy wires  (even if the Pixhawk case really looks cool ;-) ).

Holger

[Matthias Badaire]

Holger
Can you precise what components you are talking about ?
Are you talking about pre crimped cables ?
Thx

[Andrew Tridgell]

> I just use a flat screwdriver.

I also often use a small flat blad screwdriver. I've found that how hard
it is to remove a DF13 depends on the individual cables. Some come out
easily as per the video. Some don't and can be extremely hard to remove.

The method I've most recently adopted is to use a knife to cut off the
little locking bits on the cables before I use them. With those locking
bits gone the cable still holds in very well for flight, but is much
more reliably removed with just a fingernail (in case I can't find my
screwdriver).

Given how light the cables are I'm quite dubious that the locking bits
on the plugs are actually worthwhile. Does anyone really get enough
force on a cable for it to come out in flight? How? If the cables had
significant mass I could see it being an issue, but they don't, and no
amount of G force in any aircraft we fly is going to pull one out even
without those bits of locking plastic.

The second thing that I think is an issue is that the cables use lots of
separate very fine wires. It is very easy to catch a finger on one of
those single wires and damage the cable. I would prefer a cable where
the wires are bundled together. When you run a servo wire in a plane
they are run as 3 conductors all bundled into one cable, making mistakes
much less likely and preventing undue strain on one conductor
connector. If you saw someones plane with 3 separate wires going to each
servo you would think they are not a good plane builder :-)

I don't know if the DF13 cables are available without the locking bits,
or in a form where the wires are bundled together. If they are then that
may be an option?

Cheers, Tridge

[Robert Lefebvre]

It's not so much simple force that risks to pull the cables out, but it's vibration that can work them out.  Probably less of a problem with airplanes.  I haven't actually had a cable come out ever... but it can happen.

I agree on the loose wires.  I typically twist them myself into a twisted cable.  Fairly easy to do.  There's just a bit of a technique to make a nice tight cable.  

[Holger Steinhaus]

 

Can you precise what components you are talking about ?
Are you talking about pre crimped cables ?

Not complete cables (you never have the right one at hand if you need it), but pre-crimped single wires like this one: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/test-lead-wire/7200250/

Holger

[Gary McCray]

Sounds like a good case for flat ribbon cable to me! (and appropriate connectors)

Isn't their some fine pitch flat ribbon cable available (and those are easy to terminate.)

Best Regards,

Gary

[Glenn McLelland]

After having no luck trying to get 3DR to fix up their international shipping options for small packages, I found that GoodLuckBuy has a range of affordable DF13 connectors and pre-crimped wires.

http://www.goodluckbuy.com/index.php?target=products&mode=search&subcats=Y&type=extended&avail=Y&pshort=Y&pfull=Y&pname=Y&pkeywords=Y&cid=0&q=df13&x=0&y=0

On Tuesday, 14 January 2014 04:08:15 UTC+13, Lorenz Meier wrote:

Hi all,

I would love to hear what you think about the DF13 connectors - note that they’re trying to be your friends by keeping the connection safe - this video shows how they rotate slightly during locking and unlocking, and how they can / should be operated without pulling on the wires.

[Craig Elder]

We are looking at sourcing the DF13s with ribbon cable and we have some samples from the cable vendor.  Stay tuned for future developments.

--

[Andrew Chapman]

I'd say the one exception is the connector that goes into the Power Module. That needs to be locked in tight because it can get some strain when plugging/unplugging the battery from the PM.

That's the place where I'd notice one had worked itself loose.

AC.

On Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:35:15 AM UTC-8, Andrew Tridgell wrote:

...

Given how light the cables are I'm quite dubious that the locking bits
on the plugs are actually worthwhile. Does anyone really get enough
force on a cable for it to come out in flight? How? If the cables had
significant mass I could see it being an issue, but they don't, and no
amount of G force in any aircraft we fly is going to pull one out even
without those bits of locking plastic.

...

[Ian Lyons]

I would so love that video to be recreated when the Pixhawk is mounted on a frame with the supplied 3DR mounting foam - and please record the audio.

I despise these connectors because they are impossible to disconnect without causing damage in less than ideal situations - i.e. the real world. I've pulled the pins out and it won't take too long for the cables to fray. Thanks for the cut the retention tab tip - will get onto that right away.

It's also a shame that 3DR has moved to 6 pin connectors on the pixhawk telemetry ports - having the power on pin 1 and ground on pin 6 forces us to buy new cables since these are so difficult to make.

- Ian

[Bruce Jones]

On Monday, January 13, 2014 7:08:15 AM UTC-8, Lorenz Meier wrote:

I would love to hear what you think about the DF13 connectors 

After trying to live with these connectors now for a couple months, I really, Really, REALLY am frustrated by them.  The connectors alone may drive me away from the APM/Pixhawk worlds.

Despite watching the video multiple times, I've broken most of the housings on my new Pixhawk. I just can't seem to remove a cable without breaking them or pulling them off - probably about 2/3 of the time something goes wrong.  You spend big bucks on these things then break them - it's so maddening.

And what about the GPS?  I've never figured out how to remove those damnable plugs, just not enough space in there to fit a fingernail or tool.

And custom cables are impossible to make (I've tried, I just can't crimp things that small accurately enough).  But I often need cables different than the supplied length.  For example, I want to use a Pixhawk for a fixed wing flight controller and I need to place the GPS about 30cm away from the FC.  The longest "6 position to 5 position" cables 3DR sells for the GPS are 15cm.  So I hack away and splice them and they look ugly and I have a new set possible points of failure.

Two things are needed to salvage me, and I suspect a lot of other people trying to use these things - 1) A tool included with every FC that uses the DF13 connectors for removal and 2) A service that has 2 day turn-around times on custom made affordable cables.

[Jonathan Challinger]

After trying to live with these connectors now for a couple months, I really, Really, REALLY am frustrated by them.  The connectors alone may drive me away from the APM/Pixhawk worlds.

Despite watching the video multiple times, I've broken most of the housings on my new Pixhawk. I just can't seem to remove a cable without breaking them or pulling them off - probably about 2/3 of the time something goes wrong.  You spend big bucks on these things then break them - it's so maddening.

And what about the GPS?  I've never figured out how to remove those damnable plugs, just not enough space in there to fit a fingernail or tool.

 It sounds like you're trying to pop them off from the wrong side - on the GPS, you want to go after the bottom. A screwdriver will pop it right out without breaking the housing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB3-yYd5gng

And custom cables are impossible to make (I've tried, I just can't crimp things that small accurately enough).  But I often need cables different than the supplied length.  For example, I want to use a Pixhawk for a fixed wing flight controller and I need to place the GPS about 30cm away from the FC.  The longest "6 position to 5 position" cables 3DR sells for the GPS are 15cm.  So I hack away and splice them and they look ugly and I have a new set possible points of failure.

Crimping DF13 is impossible without a $800 tool. 3DR sells varied lengths of wires that have DF13 crimped on both ends, plus housings. The same is available from digikey. You can build your own cables with these. 

Two things are needed to salvage me, and I suspect a lot of other people trying to use these things - 1) A tool included with every FC that uses the DF13 connectors for removal and 2) A service that has 2 day turn-around times on custom made affordable cables.

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[Jonathan Challinger]

and it has been suggested that you trim off the retention tabs with an xacto.

[Ben Nizette]

Yeah same boat.  FWIW whenever I get a new cable I use a blade to either cut off the little vertical strakes on each side of the connector to allow the barb to release more easily, or just scrape back the barb itself on the back face.  Not ideal.

Regarding the ability to self-terminate, I don't like DF13 specifically but there's no way I'd be happy with anything much less dense, would you?  The smallest terminate-at-home type connectors that I've seen are ~2x as big and I certainly wouldn't love that.  My $0.02 is that getting pre-terminated connectors and splicing the right length of cable in the middle is about the right price to pay.

Has any other flight controller got it 'right' do you reckon? What connectors do they use? Always looking for alternatives :)  For example, Molex Clik-Mate or JST NSH-series look like they'd do the job admirably IMO.

Cheers,

  --Ben.

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[Robert Lefebvre]

The only way I could see to make hobbyists happy would be to have a single 16 pin or whatever DF13 into the flight controller, leading to a breakout board with 0.1" headers.  We can't keep putting 0.1" headers on the FC/IMU forever.

[Alex Novik]

I hate DF13 connectors. Already destroyed tons of them! It is not necessary broke on dragging cables, no.

I never touched GPS cables at all. But i have been replaced 3 cables already. It is just too weak to bend. 2-3 bendings and cable is off.

+1 for JST NSH or Molex Click-Mate

[David Pawlak]

I agree. I suffered as well, watched all the videos but had a hell of a time.

I finally got a small screwdriver working, when I realized that I had been mostly trying to pull it out from the wrong side. It seemed that even pulling from the right side didn't work, but a little help with leverage on the connecter itself resolved the issue.

Now after the screwdriver experience, and getting a clear idea in my mind of the "mechanism", a fingernail under the same side as the locking mechanism and it pops out very easily.

I feel confortable knowing that they are not going to whiggle out in flight.

As far as cable lengths, I usually cut the cable and splice in an extension. It's vital to have good soldering skills and heat shrink tubing, but it has worked very well for me, much less bother than trying to crimp a new connector.

On Monday, January 13, 2014 2:14:57 PM UTC-2, Craig@3DR wrote:

Rob, there is no reason to pull hard on the DF13s. Use your fingernail to release the locking mechanism and they come apart very easily.

On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 8:00 AM, Robert Lefebvre <robert....@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree for the most part.  But it's tricky...  Strain relief is a big deal, and DF13 connectors make this even worse because you have to pull on them so hard to disconnect them.  I end up making my own strain relief boots with hot glue.  Not perfect, but (probably?) better than nothing.

There's only a few problems with having shielded/booted cables.  Obviously cost.  But also that it results in fixed length cables.  With DJI, this results in people often having bundles of extra cable length, which doesn't necessarily make things look any more professional.  I sometimes cut and splice cables to length.  There are ways to make them look a little better, just twisting them tightly, or putting a sheath or shrinkwrap over them.

In an ideal world, I'd like nice finished cables, but we'd have to make sure that they are available in many lengths. 

As for the DR13 question, it's love-hate for me, for all the usual reasons.  I don't really have any particular insights. 

On 13 January 2014 10:47, Jason Short <jason...@mac.com> wrote:

I don't think DF13 connectors belong on the outside of a product in my opinion. External cables should be shielded and include molded strain relief.
The thin gauge wires exposed on a craft make it look amateur and unfinished.

Jason

On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Meier Lorenz <l...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:

> Hi all,

>
> I would love to hear what you think about the DF13 connectors - note that they’re trying to be your friends by keeping the connection safe - this video shows how they rotate slightly during locking and unlocking, and how they can / should be operated without pulling on the wires.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfu8M8t2fWY
>
> For dev setups (where you don’t care about vibration safety), the tip is to cut the retention tabs. The reason I ask is that I’m also expecting some not-so-good experiences, but I’m hunting exactly for those, so please be open 8).
> I’d also love to hear about any useful tips / hints.
>
> -Lorenz
>

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[David Pawlak]

Maybe I haven't seen all of the videos, but the ones that I have seen don't show any leverage device (screwdriver or fingernail). They just show pulling in a direction away from the locking device.

Giving a gentle coaxing with a fingernail pops it out right away (combined with the gentle pull away from the locking mechanism).

On Monday, January 13, 2014 2:17:11 PM UTC-2, robert.lefebvre wrote:

I've seen the videos, but have not figured out the magic to make them easy to separate.

[Alex Novik]

Take a look at this beauty 

http://www.readymaderc.com/store/bmz_cache/3/39330b588782c2116454b75cb5cb0e77.image.750x445.JPG

This seems to be should solve the problem.

[Bill Bonney]

Lorenz posted a link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfu8M8t2fWY

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[Scott F]

On Monday, January 13, 2014 7:08:15 AM UTC-8, Lorenz Meier wrote:

I would love to hear what you think about the DF13 connectors - note that they’re trying to be your friends by keeping the connection safe - this video shows how they rotate slightly during locking and unlocking, and how they can / should be operated without pulling on the wires.

Without adding hot glue or CA to the DF female the wires end up breaking or fraying over time. I've replaced plenty of these connectors on my FPV cameras. It's not really the pulling of the wires from what I've noticed. It's more the smashing of the wires when you push these things in.

[Jonathan Challinger]

I've found the DF13 connectors to be very very robust to smashing the wires, particularly the newer nice silicone wire that 3dr is using.

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[Paul Riseborough]

Once I'd seen the video and worked out the trick to loosening them from one side, it was OK. However I can appreciate that if your nails were cut too short, or you had big fingers, getting them out could be a real pain.

I do like the positive locking aspect.

I reckon if there was a simple 'DF-13 extractor' gadget available , 90+% of the hate mail would go away.

On Tuesday, 14 January 2014 02:08:15 UTC+11, Lorenz Meier wrote:

Hi all,

I would love to hear what you think about the DF13 connectors - note that they’re trying to be your friends by keeping the connection safe - this video shows how they rotate slightly during locking and unlocking, and how they can / should be operated without pulling on the wires.

[Michael Wooten]

Hey guys, I just received my pixhawk today, and noticed that the DF13 connector for the 12c port seemed to have a lot of wiggle. I took the case off, and the left side looked unsoldered  or unsolid unlike the rest...you could only notice it if you move it. should I send this unit back? or should I glue it in place? when I connect the compass, it works fine...there seems to be no functional problem, just loose on one side...maybe someone jarred it loose during testing? what do you think?

here is a link to pics of it, looks fine, but looser than the others... 

http://diydrones.com/forum/topics/i2c-port-appears-more-moveable-than-the-rest-but-works-fine

[C Wong]

Not the best here. Especially on GPS units as we've moved all of ours to a higher location and had to replace all the gps+mag cables since the default length was too short. Otherwise they do hold well under heavy vibration and any crashes (typically pulling the cables out more of than pulling the connector).

In the end, nice connector for a permanent enclosed install, but I agree with Jason 100%, I'd go with either ribbon cable (we use that on all our animatronics, but run over CANBUS) or better, for our dependency on i2c, shielded... We had many issues back in the APM1.x days when moving the compass 4-5" away from the board until we went with a shield cable.

Then again, I'm looking at our Procerus AHRS on the table here and it has unshielded wires as well, though uses a single-bus milspec connector (2 screw connector, all the wires come out at one connector).

[Gary McCray]

Hi C Wong,

I agree about flat ribbon cables.

Generally the .05" pitch cable (.1" pin spacing double row) which is the old standard is way too big.

But the .025" (.05" pin spacing double row) 30 gauge stuff is a reasonable fit

.025" pitch cables / connectors tuck in a nice small footprint and there are smaller metric pitches if you really need it.

And you can get the connectors with a variety of easy to use retainers.

And you can make your own cables very easily with their insulation displacement connectors.

Probably still a bit bigger than DF13, but so much easier to use (I'd donate the extra board space.)

If you go flexicable you can get even smaller connectors (although you do need to get custom cables for those.)

And for those places where you actually need to carry some current or provide twisted pair or shielding, just use an appropriate connector for that specific application.

The one thing I have learned about DF13 connectors is that whatever board I design next, it will not include DF13 connectors.

Best Regards,

Gary

[Scott F]

Yeah pull them out with my fingernail my butt. The result is me having to pry the connector out with a screw driver. I now have a broken wire and broken internal DF13 on a PX that's only a few hours old. I doubt this is RMA-able!

Sad DF13 connector is sad!

[Craig Elder]

You just need to use your fingernail to unlock each corner.

It's not obvious but it is not hard either.

On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:26 PM, Scott F <typical...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah pull them out with my fingernail my butt. The result is me having to pry the connector out with a screw driver. I now have a broken wire and broken internal DF13 on a PX that's only a few hours old. I doubt this is RMA-able!

Sad DF13 connector is sad!

[Gary McCray]

DF13 connectors, the post that will not die!

If your going to put a cable into them once and you bought / received the correct cable, DF13's are great.

If you need to remove the connector after putting it in or you want to make your own cables, not so great.

For engineers with sufficient documentation, DF 13 cables can be handled by a variety of means.

For people with long enough fingernails (not me or Scott F who just submitted a picture) and a good DF13 removing video to watch I suppose it is possible if a little Russian Roulettish.

Possibly a video through a magnifying lens showing it being done with a spudge or an Xactoi knife or a jewlers screwdriver would help, but for the normal global consumer - more dismal failures than successes in any case.

Lorenz your Swiss and could probably make a wristwatch blindfolded and Craig you are a very meticulous engineer and both of you are heavily invested in these connectors because you put them on the board.

I truly hope that with your next board you reralize how not in the same skill set or mind set your customer base is.

The DF13 is the single worst feature of the Pixhawk and it is way in front of whatever is in second place.

I am not saying small spacing IDC flat ribbon cables are the best alternative and certainly not for some uses.

But they would be a lot better than DF13s for a lot of uses and they are easy to make into cables at home with a jury rigged press or even a pair of Vice Grip sheet metal clamp pliers.

By the way my friend Oliver's Hoverthings Flip FPV Pro with a Pixhawk running 3.1.2 is producing flawless jello free 1080P video with a really cheap brushless gimbal and a GoPro.

The Autotune procedure has resulted in really really nice handling and performance in all ways and the built in isolated platform produces jello free and rock stable video and resulted in sub 1/10 G vibrations on the Pixhawk (which is stiffly suspended between the Flips platform supports on O rings).

Best Regards,

Gary

[Jonathan Challinger]

Now that I know how DF13s work, I have to say that they are excellent connectors.

A small (I've even used large ones, fingernails or anything handy) screwdriver to pry upward on the lip works great. Don't ever pull on the wires. It should be obvious that the connector is free before you even touch the wires.

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[Andrew Chapman]

On 2014-04-02 9:12 PM, Jonathan Challinger wrote:

Now that I know how DF13s work, I have to say that they are excellent connectors.
A small (I've even used large ones, fingernails or anything handy) screwdriver to pry upward on the lip works great. Don't ever pull on the wires. It should be obvious that the connector is free before you even touch the wires.

Since I made the realization that my fingernails are just not compatible with DF13 and that I *must* use one very particular screwdriver I have to do the job, they pop out easily. It was a mental shift, and as soon as I was at peace with needing a tool to do the job rather than my stubby fingers, I'm ok with them again.

Slide a very small, fine screwdriver (flat blade 3 or 4mm wide, very thin blade) into the crack between the plug and socket on the side with the pins and give a gentle little twist, they pop right open.

AC.

[Robert Lefebvre]

Yep.  It also took me a while to come to the conclusion "don't even think about using your fingers, just grab that screwdriver", and it's all good now.

Perhaps 3DR should just ship with a little screw driver?

Funny thing this reminds me of:  I work with a lot of 10-150 HP variable speed drives at work.  Cost $1,000-30,000.  Every one includes a cheap tiny little flat screwdriver because even in industrial applications, I guess people complain about not having the tiny little screw driver required to turn the little screws in the signal terminal blocks.  They don't even have printed instruction manuals anymore, but they include a little screw driver in every one.

[Gary McCray]

Hi Robert, Jonathan and Andrew,

Great 3 more engineers who think the DF13 is OK.

As I said, for engineers, we can deal with it, me too, I havent screwed one up yet.

Makes me really understand the limitation of having this particular post in this spot, basically the question never gets to the people you really need to ask.

Namely the much greater proportion of our users who aren't engineers.

I actually respect what the DF13 does, very solid reliable retention and great continuous circuit maintenance in a really small space.

But for end users who are general consumer market hobbyists or even just those seeking to adopt yet another nifty new technology, the problems associated with removing DF13 connectors far outweigh their advantages.

At the very least, a connector removal assist device needs to be included with a little pamphlet of very clear pictorial directions on exactly how to use it and it needs to be included in every box that contains anything with a DF13 connector or cable.

They will still get ignored or lost, but then at least we can point to the fact we gave them the tool and showed them how to do it.

I will stand firmly on what I said, DF13's do not belong in a consumer product and we are doing our very best to make the Pixhawk into a consumer product.

On the normal DIYDrones site we are bound to see myriad complaints about them from unhappy customers as long as they persist.

That WE can appreciate them isn't going to help.

Best Regards,

Gary

[Nikolaus Wittenstein]

I just want to say: I have a degree in electrical engineering, I make a living working with embedded devices, I've watched the video about ten times, and I still can't for the life of me "unlock the corners" or "push forward and tilt".

My connectors are completely stuck in my Pixhawk. When I try to pry up with my fingernails, I can see the socket coming up with the plug, so I'm not about to pull any harder. I tried using the back of an Xacto and just chewed up the connector a little bit. I'm gonna try to find a very small screwdriver, but this is slightly user unfriendly, at least if only in the lack of accurate instructions.

Seriously, every time I watch the video, all I can conclude is that the Pixhawk shown actually uses different connectors than mine.

[Nikolaus Wittenstein]

As a follow-up, it is in fact straightforward to open the connector if you use a tiny screwdriver. I will be using this method from now on.
Thanks!

[Robert Lefebvre]

Yeah, the trick is to twist it, so one edge of the screwdriver blade is pushing up on the male plug, and the other side is pushing down on the female socket.  That prevents the female socket from just pulling off the board.

[Nikolaus Wittenstein]

Yeah, that's what I discovered. I really don't know how the person in the video just pulls with their fingernail! And I think the reason the Xacto didn't work is because you really have to pry up just one corner at a time.

[Andrew Chapman]

Just to keep this thread from ever dying... and not that the ship is likely to change course now, but:

It recently struck me that the JST connector used to connect the older style GPS modules to the side connector of the APM2.5 boards aren't bad. They're about the same size as an equivalent DF13 and they have a quite positive grip when they're plugged in but can still be extracted by force alone with no risk of damaging the board. They also have little fingernail-friendly tabs on either side to aid extraction without needing to pull on the wires.

But as I said, having accepted that I personally need a fine screwdriver to extract them, I'm fine with DF13. I think it would be great if 3DR included one with each Pixhawk to lead people down that path, or maybe a hard plastic version (non-conductive, non-cutting) with 3DR branding and "DF13 Extractor" written on it.

[Samuel Grob]

First (as far as I know) clone comes with different connectors - just sayin'
http://witespyquad.gostorego.com/flight-controllers/rtfhawk-2-4.html

As much as I dislike clones, this alone is tempting me 

[Craig Elder]

You just have to add your own battery to that board.

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[dmu...@netgradetech.com]

Man I hate the DF13. Just blew through a brand new I2C splitter, there was no way in hell I was getting the connectors off while the splitter was still mounted in the aircraft. At least with the Pixhawk you can get the right index finger angle to pop them out, not so on these guys.

[Robert Lefebvre]

Heh, just last night I ripped a right-angle socket off one on my PX4, while using a screwdriver.  It was bad angle as it was mounted in my frame.  It didn't break the pin joints, just the little reinforcing taps on the sides.  So I glued it down with crazy glue.  But that's the first incident I've had while using a screwdriver, and there were extenuating circumstances.

[Michael Day]

Howdy,

Just so it's clear that not ALL engineers like the DF-13:

I've got an aero PhD, an ME PhD, and two CS Master's degrees on my research team.  Not one of us likes the DF13. It is _possible_ to remove the connector with fingernails, tiny screwdrivers, and other hackery, but there are better connectors out there.  Something from Molex rather than Hirose would be nice.  You can get Molex connectors that are tight and won't shake free during flight -- and yet are possible to remove without doing the Hirose dance.

Research and engineering requires moving things around often.  This connector is a pain to remove and is not good for either.

Just my two cents,

Michael
U.S. Naval Postgraduate School
Faculty Research Associate

[Meier Lorenz]

Samuel,

Those are Molex clones (original Molex is too expensive to allow to sell the board at that price) and have essentially the same properties. The DF13 and PicoBlade series are drop-in replacements, we’ve used them both.

-Lorenz

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[Craig Elder]

Another DF13 instructional video :)

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[Simon Wunderlin]

Hi All

This thread doesn't seem to die, lots of users are unhappy about the DF-13, I am not a big fan neither. I do understand that idea was to use a small connector which has some strain relief.

I am quite amazed that Nick Arsov's AUAV X1 board has the same functionality as a pixhawk at the size of a single PX4 FMU while still including 0.1" pin headers: http://arsovtech.com/?p=1424 . size might, after all, not really a problem the DF-13 solves.

Is the strain relief really that important? There have been thousands of APMs sold with normal pin headers. They have worked in more than 20 planes, I have built, very well, these planes have combined a couple of hundred flight hours. On multirotors people seem to secure the pin header connectors with a drop of hot-glue (not sure if this is necessary, I don't use multirotors often).

Best

-S

[Alexis Novik]

Craig, that is exactly how i did it. Look at my result

I know, this one is not the same type, but i also have this problem with new combined GPS+MAG module. I just fixed it and do not have a photo of broken connector

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[john...@gmail.com]

Maybe 3DR could offer a "experimenter cable kit" for people who need to disconnect and rewire often? Something with a easy to disconnect plug in middle of each cable, making it so that you don't have to disconnect the DF13's at board level.

[PX]<DF13>---cable---<ext><ext>---cable---<DF13?>[DEVICE]

- JAB

[Jason Short]

It's not great but I remove the small locking bumps on every df13 with an xacto blade. Hold fine and removes with far less force. 

Jason

Sent from my iPhone

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[Bill Bonney]

There are breakout pads on the APM2.5 and GPS/MAG unit, you can connect your own cable to connectors as will. Probably not cost effective to create a new part

Bill

[Mark Slater]

I just managed to rip the DF13 connector right off the board - it wasn't that hard to do.

DF13 was a bad move in my opinion, it should not be used in this application, I would much rather heat glue servo connections than fight with DF13 in tight spaces. Having said that the whole design of the Pixhawk is wrong. I think we need to look at the reasons DJI made their wookong with a separate IMU. We can then have much chunkier cables on the flight controller and only worry about dampening a small IMU externally.

[john...@gmail.com]

> I think we need to look at the reasons DJI made their wookong with a separate IMU. We can then have much chunkier cables on the flight controller and only worry about dampening a small IMU externally.

I agree with this statement. It is much easier to get good vibration control with an external IMU, and at the same time you have more options as to how you connect your cables since you don't have to take vibrations into account.

Look for example at this YS-X6 installation in one of my big octos. The autopilot main unit is hard mounted to the frame, meaning that you can fasten cables around it as you want without worrying about how it affects vibration dampening. And lastly the IMU is just put on top using an adhesive gel pad. Resulting vibration performance is excellent.



- JAB

[Mark Slater]

O, so after ripping the can bus right off the board its been playing on my mind - I absolutely hate the DF13 connectors - so much so I've been considering Wookong and the clone as an alternative. I decided as a last resort today to cut the tabs off the backs of all the cable connectors (takes about 15 seconds a connector with a sharp knife)

So glad I did, I can now easily remove and re-plug all the cables whilst I'm developing the frames, even with the tabs cut they don't easily come out of the socket - but its not hard to just wiggle them out if you need to. They still seem much more secure than servo connectors this way, even so a small dab of heat glue will give me everything I want.

Happy now (Apart from I have no Can bus anymore)

[Arthur Benemann]

I just received a mail about a new connector, that could be used instead of the DF13. It's a 1.25 mm pin spacing, double row, connector.

http://www.harwin-gecko.com/downloads/gecko_brochure.pdf

Digikey seams to have some of the parts available, but it's hard to estimate pricing for connectors by those quotes.

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[Gary McCray]

Hi Arthur, 

That is a really nice looking connector with a lot of advantages over DF13.

I like retention tabs a lot better and the potting wall is nice too.

I was pretty excited about it till I saw this:

One of the main issues is still awful, the simple hand crimper is $900.00 which like the DF13's is insane.

I'm sure it's a very nice crimper, but they are selling you a $100.00 crimper for $900.00.

However, it is a pretty standard looking circular crimp so it is entirely possible one of the more reasonably priced crimpers might be compatible, why couldn't the Chinese clone something useful like that.

Best Regards,

Gary

[Ben Nizette]

Hi Arthur, Gary,

$900 is par for the course with crimpers I'm afraid, everyone rips you off.  The cheapest I've seen are the Molex Picoblade crimpers at $500.  By concern with the Gecko isn't the price of the crimper, it's the price of the connector!  A 6-pos SMD connector is ~$6 in quantity compared to $0.32 for a DF13.  OWCH.  Yeah it'll come down once quantities go up, but it still isn't really in the league.

Also the fact that they don't come smaller than a 6-pos (2x3) is a bit of a bummer, will lead to more things being loomed up.

Ben.

[Arthur Benemann]

Ben: By concern with the Gecko isn't the price of the crimper, it's the price of the connector!  A 6-pos SMD connector is ~$6 in quantity compared to $0.32 for a DF13.

Yeah you are rigth, and even after production ramps up it will be more expensive than a DF13 (simple because it has more material). 

 

Gary: why couldn't the Chinese clone something useful like that.

I'm sure they have clones for it, a bunch of cables are made over there and I'm sure they don't use original crimpers. 

I don't remember anyone mentioning the Hirose DF57 series in this thread, so here it is:

It's an odd connector, but it offers 1.2mm pitch, friction and positive lock, specs similar to a DF13.

The crimping tool is still on the thousand dollars mark, but the connector pieces are cheap. One thing that caught my eye is this drawing of the crimp contact:

   

Crimping the wire by hand it's at least possible. And fitting it into the housing shouldn't be that hard (just giving it a test to know for sure).

[Gary McCray]

Hi Arthur, 

That is an unusual connector, not sure how well it would work for flight control boards in enclosures and the retainers look a bit fragile.

Could someone tell me what is wrong with plain old flat ribbon cable (fine pitch version of course).

There is a ton of it made and lots of connectors and lots of retention styles, and they are widely available and reasonably cheap.

And being and insulation displacement connector ( IDC), they squeeze together and there are a lot of reasonably priced manual termination press's and pliers made for it.

And with a little bit of care you can even use Vice Grip Sheet metal clamp pliers to terminate them.

Even the fine pitch ones would take a little bit more board space than the DF13's, but it seems a small price to pay.

In my professional life I have assembled literally thousands of flat ribbon cables to use in the projects I was working on and I thought they were one of the few things that really worked well.

Best Regards,

Gary

[Arthur Benemann]

Hi Gary,

That is an unusual connector, not sure how well it would work for flight control boards in enclosures and the retainers look a bit fragile.

I disagree with a part of that statement, I think it is more robust than a DF13 (it's a more horizontal connector, with larger tabs to hold the entire structure). Here is some extra info: 

http://dkc1.digikey.com/us/en/tod/Hirose/DF57_NoAudio/DF57_NoAudio.html

About the enclosures, that might be a problem because you need top access to the connector, and it only has a single orientation ( a vertical connector would be very fragile). Surely it couldn't be used in the 'connector farm' of the pixhawk, but for a CAN system it could very well be a solution.

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[Robert Lefebvre]

From my limited experience, the real problem with ribbon cable is it's very stiff.  It's too bad that there isn't something where you have have the easy termination of a ribbon cable, but the flexibility of a twisted cable.

[Ben Nizette]

Hi Gary,

I've personally got nothing against the IDCs except that they aren't readily available in anything smaller than a 10-pos AFAICT.  This would either lead to an overall increase in size or an increase in looming and the need for breakouts down the cable, neither do I love.  I would understand it if people were scared of the vibration characteristics of those connectors too, though I don't know how well-founded those fears may be.

I still reckon Molex Clikmate or JST NSH is the way to go - essentially a DF13 with a positive locking mechanism that actually works!  Sure you still can't manually terminate which is a bugger, but preterm cables and a soldering iron don't scare me too much.  Of course, if this thread has shown one thing it's that everyone has a different view on that point :)

Ben.

[Scott F]

Oh the DF13 thread that will never end! 

Background: I recently bought a screen repair kit for my Samsung phone. The repair kit came with plastic pry open tools. I was curious how well they worked with the Pixhawk and the DF13's

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12x-Plastic-Pry-Open-Tools-for-Mobile-Phone-PDA-MP3-Small-Gadgets-Screen-Shell-/171138793088?pt=US_Cell_Phone_Replacement_Parts_Tools&hash=item27d8aabe80

Here's the results..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KukqBYL2ghQ

If I have to pay a extra $1 for 3dR to include this in my kit I'd GLADLY pay it. It'd save me tens of dollars in replacement cables. I don't know what milk you guys have in the non US countries, but the DF13's almost ripped my fingernail off. The pry tool works like a champ! 

[Randy Mackay]

 

     Well, that looks useful!  I might get one of those.

 

-Randy

--

[MikeRover]

 

Not sure if it's been suggested, but what about a DF13 to 0.1" breakout board? Something with sets of DF13 sockets and corresponding 0.1" pitch header pins?

 

It wouldn't be the smallest thing in the world, but having something that you could leave permanently connected to the PixHawk, then run standard servo / jumper wires that you connect and disconnect. Would mean custom cabling for 3DR-standard gear which already has DF13s, but would simplify other kit.

 

Even a DF13->DF13 breakout board that mirrored the PixHawk connectors would insulate you from breaking connectors on the PixHawk. Something like the I2C splitter, but for the six-pin plugs.

 

Is there any variant of the DF13 connectors on the board that could be physically secured to/by the case, so the case took the extraction load rather than the solder? I'm envisaging some sort of tab on the connector that the top of the case pushed down on. 

[Mark Harrison]

On 5/1/14 9:17 AM, Scott F wrote:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/12x-Plastic-Pry-Open-Tools-for-Mobile-Phone-PDA-MP3-Small-Gadgets-Screen-Shell-/171138793088?pt=US_Cell_Phone_Replacement_Parts_Tools&hash=item27d8aabe80
>
> Here's the results..
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KukqBYL2ghQ

Wow, that looks great... I've torn up so many cables trying
to pry them out. I love their smallness, but hate them
otherwise.

This looks like just the thing, I've justsent in my order.

And if somebody knows of a reasonable crimping tool for
these things I'd love to hear about that as well.

Thanks!

Devs, it's a pack of 12 so if you want one send me a note
and I'll mail one of the extras out.

Mark

[Stefan Gofferje]

You can get those things from ebay for $0.99 for a 5-pack. I believe,
that 3DR could source them even cheaper in mass orders... That should
definitely be included with every Pixhawk!
And - the very least - be available from the 3DR store.

-S

[ColinC]

You're right. These aren't appropriate for any kind of consumer-facing interconnect. And the problem is just compounded by the use of unnecessarily small gauge wire. For df13, 26 ga is acceptable for anything that is going to be handled. Anything smaller is not.

And while I'm on the subject, let me say that I hope there's a special place by the fire for whoever decided that black -black -black -red was a reasonable color coding scheme for serial data cables :-)

Cheers
Colin

[Gary McCray]

Hi Colin,

DF13 connectors, make a really solid reliable connection and makes it easy to remove those pesky circuit board traces rather than disconnecting.

I strongly recommend using a nice small pair of flush cutters and removing the little retention tab on each end of the internal connector.

(Of course you have to get them apart first, for that I recommend a fine blade Xacto knife blade placed on the back of the connector and then prying on end slightly away and while holding that end out doing the same on the other (3 hands would help).

There are a number of UK people who favor a plastic "spudger" but those are hard to come by here.

In any case once you get it apart, just flush cut those damn retaining tabs off each end of the internal connector.

They still have plenty of retention force and have shown absolutely no tendency to come apart on their own.

And it becomes possible to disconnect them without destroying your board or resorting to miraculous intervention.

The DF13 does too good a job of making a reliable connection at the expense of being reasonably disconnectible.

I am one of their most vocal detractors.

Best Regards,

Gary

[Andrew Tridgell]

I find using a USB cable to remove the DF13s works nicely. The flat edge
of a USB connector levers out DF13 connectors very nicely, and I nearly
always have a USB cable handy.

Cheers, Tridge

[ColinC]

They also have this. Be good for my gps up on the pole.

http://www.goodluckbuy.com/apm-2-5-3dr-telemetry-adapter-cable-20cm-osd-xbee-adapter-cable.html

Cheers
Colin

[Robert Lefebvre]

And yet, I'm absolutely amazed at how cleanly and easily ALL of my DF13 connections popped out when my Pixhawk was ejected from the gasser heli when it crashed.  All the cables look perfect.

Maybe we should try a stiff jerk to remove them instead of a gentle pull?  ;)

--

[Jonathan Challinger]

The best way to remove them is to pry them up from the correct side, in the corners.

They're perfectly good connectors and I've never had trouble with them after learning to properly remove them.

They are not finger-removable. Never pull on the wires unless the connector is already loose.

[Gary McCray]

I agree that DF13 connectors are great connectors, except for the fact that for non-engineers they are not reasonably disconnectible and except for the fact you can't wire and 

terminate your own connectors without a grossly over priced $1000.00 hand tool.

So my suggestion is for those of you out there who are not engineers and would still like to remove your Pixhawk connectors without removing the connector from the PC board.

Flush cut the tiny little tabs on the ends of each inner connector.

And Robert, I am pretty sure you aren't serious, the extreme shock from a crash is nothing like a yank and from what I have seen of yanks before,they are much better at removing the entire connector pair than one connector from the other.

The 2 (4 if you include Lorenz and Craig) people who think DF13 connectors are a reasonable solution are all top flight engineers, for whom the DF13 does not represent a significant challenge.

So my suggestion is just for people who are not them.

Best Regards,

Gary

[Holger Steinhaus]

The 2 (4 if you include Lorenz and Craig) people who think DF13 connectors are a reasonable solution are all top flight engineers, for whom the DF13 does not represent a significant challenge.

+1 please :-)

Zero troubles so far, never ripped a connector from the board, except one in a bad crash (didn't matter, no usable parts left anyway). But the best thing: even my year-old TTY debug cable, that probably has been plugged 1000 times or more, still makes a solid connection. I have some Molex Picoblades on other frequently used hardware (e.g. my beloved SM Unilog), and I really hate to change the SMD-style connectors on the PCB twice per year...

 

I agree that DF13 connectors are great connectors, except for the fact that for non-engineers they are not reasonably disconnectible and except for the fact you can't wire and 

terminate your own connectors without a grossly over priced $1000.00 hand tool.

As mentioned earlier in this thread before, pre-crimped single wires are commercially available for about 1.5 cents (!!!) per contact. I bought a few hundred of them for 10 or 20 bucks, plus some connector housings with different pin counts. Making a custom cable takes me less than 10 minutes that way. No need for crimping, except you plan to make a few thousand cables...

Holger

 

[Gary McCray]

Sorry I missed you Holger,

I am sure there are a few other top flight engineers out there as well who like DF13 connectors, to those others I missed, I apologize in advance.

The pre-crimped wires are a partial solution but if you need double ended DF13's get messy.

And the pre-crimped wires aren't as openly available or as inexpensive as might be useful (actually shown at about 57 cents apiece not 1.5 cents per contact in the UK).

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/test-lead-wire/7200250/

In any case I really like to be able to crimp and assemble my own connectors.

Best regards,

Gary