a rose by any other name.. APM:Copter vs ArduCopter

[Randy Mackay]

    Ok, so with full recognition that these naming threads can get well out of hand..

     I think with the AC3.3 release and removal of support for APM1, 2 we should start calling it "APM:Copter" instead of "ArduCopter".  It came up in the first in-person DroneCode meeting of the Embedded Linux conference this past monday morning and some people thought that although the "Ardu" part of the name gives proper homage to our roots, it may not be good (in terms of clarity at least) for either the Arduino people or us.

     I've personally resisted calling it "APM:Copter" because I don't think it rolls off the tongue nor the keyboard as nicely as ArduCopter.  Instead I've been mostly typing simply AC... but "AC" has to stand for something and then you're back to "ArduCopter".  For the name to stick, we need to all use "APM:Copter" from now on, including me.  All in favour?  Of course, if we can't agree we should perhaps just embrace the chaotic beauty of having multiple names.

    Other random notes:

         Tridge and I discussed calling the vehicles "AP/Copter", "AP/Plane", "AP/Rover" which I personally prefer but introducing yet another name is probably not a good idea.

         The name of the suite remains as "ardupilot" for now at least.  this is harder to change because our github repo is called this

-Randy

[Robert Lefebvre]

I prefer AP/Copter as well.  Because the AP could be said to stand for AutoPilot.  APM:Copter still has APM, which is ArduPilotMega, which is still an Ardu* derivative.  We aren't even using that hardware anymore.  As I mentioned on Skype, it can be hard to change a name without making a clean break with the past.  APM:Copter is just too close to Arducopter running on APM hardware.  

A marketing person would probably tell us we need to completely change the name.  Call it, WhaleShark, or PineTree or FruitCake or something. ;)  I've never liked those sorts of names.  But AP/Copter is at least an extra step away from ArduCopter running on APM hardware.

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[Luis Vale Gonçalves]

Hi

just my 2c

If the project name is to continue as ArduPilot I would suggest using the random note like you and Tridge discussed AP/Copter, etc 

I believe it's easier than ArduPilot/Copter, etc, so keep the A and P and add the vehicle type. Oh and just reserve also AP/Boat :)

[Luis Vale Gonçalves]

Oh,

and like Rob suggested AP could be made to mean something else like AutoPilot :) if the global project name changes :) although I believe that keeping the project's global name as ArduPilot is keeping an homage to its origins.

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 1:28:24 PM UTC, Randy Mackay wrote:

[David Pawlak]

A product name is like its face!

The world has identified with Ardu* and APMx. To a great extent, this is probably why we've stuck with the name so long. "Ardu"ino has long been forgotten (almost), as the Arduino technology, and rather as OUR Open source drone platform of choice.

That said, a new face can be created. In time we will accustom ourselves to any name; again, it's the product who's image is maintained.

If we are going to do plastic surgery on the existing face though, I'd prefer something like AP,Copter or AP.Rover over AP/Copter or AP:Copter.

In order of preference:

AP,Copter

AP:Copter

AP/Copter

I'm not sure how any of those could affect the directory names in a fully revised build though.

[Gary McCray]

Hi All,

The name is important and I'm not sure we are there yet.

If you go to the main page of the APMCopter wiki half the references are for APMCopter and the other half are for ArduCopter.

http://copter.ardupilot.com/

Even the URL title name differs from the URL name itself. (ardupilot - APMCopter).

Neither Ardu or ArduPilotMega really mean anything to us anymore and obviously have nothing to do with where we are headed.

And the APM without the Ardu reference really doesn't mean anything.

The after the fact distillation to AutoPilotMega is clever, but also a bit lame and generic.

No answers here, only a consideration that maybe it would be a good idea to come up with a decent name we can live with for a while.

One of our difficulties here is we really aren't a big company, which often values "branding" over the value of the product itself.

Best Regards,

Gary

[Oleksandr Chendekov]

AP means ArduPilot, APM means ArduPilot Mega. Pixhawk, VRbrain, Erle, Navio, etc. has almost nothing common with Arduino ecosystem. Maybe it's time to change the name to something totally new? Like DroidPlanner became Tower. Ok, it can abbrevates to AP, like Alpha Pilot or something else, but not must. Two-five years later it will become obvious.

[Thorsten]

Hi all,

looking at it from a users perspective I fully agree with Gary.

It is currently pretty confusing (APM, APM:Copter, AC, ArduCopter, Ardupilot,...)

What is good is a differentiation such as APM:Copter, APM:Plane, ... if you want to point to specific applications/firmwares. And APM is recognizable as a brand.

AP/Copter, AP/Rover is ok as well but "AP" as a brand - not sure.

Since the APM/Ardupilot became cross-platfrom one idea might be APX (as for cross-platform autopilot). It sound ok and it is pretty close to its roots (APM). 

Just my 2 cents

Best regards,

Thorsten

[George ZP]

Hello,

I also agree with doing away with the ardu-component. But I would also advocate in favour of a clear differentiation between hardware and software, since the autopilot software is by now multi-platform.

So nomenclature in the form of AP:Plane on Linux  or AP:Copter on APM2.6 would be the clearest to me, when talking about autopilot setups. AP:Plane would simply refer to the software, regardless of the board it can be installed on.

[Clay McClure]

Hi Randy,

Nice meeting you at ELC!

I vote for keeping APM:Copter (and APM:Plane, et al), if only because you've got this nice logo and you might as well use it:

If you do change the name, I hope you'll make a concerted effort to notify downstream users, like mavros, that use "apm" in their trees (see, e.g., https://github.com/mavlink/mavros/blob/master/mavros/launch/apm.launch).

Cheers,

Clay

[Tom Pittenger]

I too am in favor of "APM:Copter" and "APM:Plane" ect.

MatrixPilot source on UAVdevboard did this at one point. They merged a few projects into their main "GentleNav" repo and renamed themselves MatrixPilot. The repo is still called gentlenav which is a bit confusing. If you change the name away from Ardu* or APM* you'll be stuck with all these diydrones/ardupilot repos floating around forever.

-TomP

[Víctor MV]

+1 for APM:Copter and so on.

[Clay McClure]

Renaming a GitHub repo is fairly painless, IIRC, because they forward to the new url. So everybody wouldn't strictly need to edit their remotes.

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[Julien Dubois]

Agree with Rob.
Ardu, AP, APM, that means more or less the same thing...not sure that will be very usefull changing it.
A beter marketing name could help for commercial aspects but this open source project is well known as is.

[john...@gmail.com]

I remember we had a similar discussion some time (years) ago. That time it was suggested to keep APM for "brand" recognition but changing the meaning of the letters APM to mean something else. For example Auto Pilot Multi(platform).

[Robert Lefebvre]

Yep, I remember that.  

[Jesus Alvarez]

+1 to keep APM:Copter

[Gary McCray]

Indeed, it went from Ardu Pilot Mega to Auto Pilot Multiplatform - brilliant marketing hyperbola.

But frankly everybody in this group already clearly relates to APM.

So consensus so far is stick with APMcopter, APMplane and APMrover and lose the Ardu everywhere.

Of course on the home page, not only do we have ArduCopter and APM:Copter, but we also have APMcopter as well as copter.ardupilot.com.

http://copter.ardupilot.com/

Possibly it might be a good idea to actually decide what form it is APMcopter or APM:Copter.

To me the colon seems a bit superfluous and hinky so I personally go with APMcopter but APMCopter might be OK too and I won't lose any sleep if it turns out to be APM:Copter.

Really we just need to decide, change all the non-compliant references and move on. 

It does seem to me that this is already really referring to the firmware, not the hardware, because our hardware has already leaped the fence to Pixhawk and a number of other platforms as well.

So APM really refers to the operational firmware and we can call the hardware and GCS whatever we want so long as we mention it supports or runs with the APM firmware.

Best,

Gary

[Bill Bonney]

I would suggest sticking with Ardupilot as the top level directory and just refer to copter/rover/boat and blimp

Keep the Ardu* and APM out of the code is my advice as that is all marketing and shouldn’t be in the code expect for the high level namespace. ie rename ArduCopter to just copter etc..

I don’t like the APM:Copter, is not pronounceable. APM:Copter APM:Rover etc… should be bansihed ;) It’s been tried and it’s just hasn’t worked out.

And like another poster has pointed out it keeps the main ardupilot root dir that everybody has forked from, which keeps it simple. (internally using git mv you can even keep the file history intact)

Bill

[Hamish Willee]

I don't have a strong opinion on what the name should be, but I do feel that if you have branding it should be applied consistently everywhere. In the wiki at least I can do this, once something has been decided.

If Ardu- doesn't work and APM is doesn't stick, perhaps time for something completely different?

[Bill Bonney]

In this case I would say 

"I would suggest sticking with <whatever> as the top level directory and just refer to copter/rover/boat and blimp"

The code should be agnostic about what the root level project is called. ;)

B.

[Randy Mackay]

Thanks for all the feedback.   So I see a general consensus that a new name would probably be best but APM:Copter is acceptable or at least better than continuing with both APM:Copter and Arducopter in parallel.  I think we can make it stick if we on the Dev and testing teams don't waver and use the ardu-name.      I'm sure it will take some time to replace all the references but we can start with the wiki and out on the forums.      Like bill I'll probably also use the short form of just "copter" a lot. -Randy Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Hamish Willee]

What about the replacement to ArduPilot (the generic form) - APM:Pilot? APMPilot, APM_Pilot. It can't be APM because that is the name of a controller board.

--

[Bill Bonney]

I think we can make it stick if we on the Dev and testing teams don'twaver and use the ardu-name.

That was the strategy last time. What's changed this time what 'will make it stick'?

ArduPilot still has the top level domain for the basis of all wikis. http://www.ardupilot.com

I think as a dev team we need to make the code 'agnostic' to the marketing name. Then when you want a rebrand exercise, it something that happens with a consistent change across the site and to all effected parties, websites etc..

Anything else really will end in just more of the same. (confusion due to inconsistency)

I honestly think referring to the project as ArduPilot, with Copter, Plane Rover etc is the clean approach, it's easy to say, links to the heritage of the project and search engines queries, and drops the unpronounceable APMCopter APMPlane etc... leave APM to refer to 

the APM line of hardware

For a bigger change i.e. SkookumPilot* that can come later ;)

*and yes you guessed it, even that's been taken :-p http://www.skookumrobotics.com

[Hamish Willee]

So no consensus after all - and there I was thinking about making a global change on wiki today :-0.  

How about a naming competition?

• OnePilot  (OnePilotCopter, OnePilotRover)
  
• Commander (CommanderCopter or CoperCommander etc)
  
• HAL
  
• Ace - AceRover, AcePilot
  
• Bilby - BilbyCopter :-0
  

Recently I got direction that APM didn't stick and I should revert to Ardu. I would rather move forward but as I said before, some consistency is more important that the particular decision.

[George ZP]

If you come down to asking for public opinion, create a poll with the ability to add entries and see what sticks then! ;)

--

[Julien Dubois]

+1 George, as it's an open source project, the whole community should vote for a new name and I'm sure they would be glad to participate!

[David Pawlak]

Open Source....   OSCopter, OSPlane, ODRover etc. That's what we're about.

[Daniel Nugent]

I like the OS. Instead of OSCopter, it could be CopterOS, PlaneOS, RoverOS. OS could mean operating system or open source.

+1 on community poll. It will gather attention of a name change and be a community effort. Just have it sit at the top of Diydrones for 3 weeks and then any member can vote.


Daniel

[Tom Pittenger]

I do not like "OS" since we're already mixed up in NuttX OS and Linux OS and soon ROS (not an operating system).

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[Hamish Willee]

And you have to be careful with "Open" as a variation too - or you run into things like https://www.openpilot.org/products/openpilot-coptercontrol-platform/

I quite like names which say what the thing does "Commander" or position it as a "the first" - hence "One" and "Ace".

A community poll would be fun.

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[Robert Lefebvre]

Have to be careful with Ace and One, as the DJI Ace One was the first consumer grade autopilot. ;)

I do like Commander.

[Hamish Willee]

Nice to know I can channel DJI ... a few years late.

[Randy Mackay]

     I suspect we will talk about this a bit more on the dev call.  I don't think we can come to an agreement on a new name but I think we can agree to drop one of our existing names.  So I think we agree to drop "ArduCopter" in place of "APM:Copter" as the official name and just "copter" as the unofficial short-form.

-Randy

[Bill Bonney]

 I suspect we will talk about this a bit more on the dev call.  I don't think we can come to an agreement on a new name but I think we can agree to drop one of our existing names.  So I think we agree to drop "ArduCopter" in place of "APM:Copter" as the official name and just "copter" as the unofficial short-form.

I don’t think that is a true statement. I think we can come to an agreement on a new name, it just needs to be put to the community. I don’t think dictating a name is the way forward. 

And the naming of the product really matters, and that name will attract new developers/testers to the platform. The ‘brand’ is important. (we are talking about a brand that it’s thousands and thousands on magazines, websites and other DIY community places etc….)

Putting APM in front of a platform going forward that doesn’t even run on the gazillion APM boards out there is just really confusing. I know, M=Multi-platform, but really who knows that, its just read as APM (which cannot even pronounce it needs to be spelled out!)

I don’t think renaming the project needs to be decided instantly, but it does need to be open and involve others in the project.

The only thing I think that makes sense right now is to remove the ‘branding’ in the code ie move the ArduCopter directory to copter for example.

I like to hear others comments on how they would like a renaming process to go.

Bill

[David Pawlak]

Good idea I think, removing the branding from the code (first). Although it's probably the "stinkiest" part of the process, it's a great start.

The name probably does deserve time to evaluate. Maybe one problem with the public evaluation of the name however, is that it's really hard to come to a concensus. There will always be a large number that aren't happy. Perhaps if it was made into a contest; people somehow accept a judges decision...

Or the other is to deligate the naming to a professional.

[Julien Dubois]

is ardupilot.com going to be renamed?

[David Pawlak]

I wonder what Jordy has to say?

[OlliW]

funny discussion, and as many opinions as posts, as Randy has anticipated in the first post, so let me share my 2 cents as a newcomer to ???????? (whatever the name is)

* I would find it more important to get rid of the Ardu remains in the code than in the names (= .pde)

* who the heck really cares what BMW means ... it nevertheless stands for outstanding quality and anybody wants to have one

:)

[Robert Lefebvre]

I agree with Bill.  This does matter.  It's going to be hard to do without a clean break.  A good interim step is to remove branding from the code now.

The source code doesn't really care what the name is.

[Holger Steinhaus]

My opinion: never ever let software engineers decide on brand names, colors or UI designs ;) 

Apart from that, I would agree with OlliW - first get rid of historical burdens in a technical sense (build system, project structure, PDE files and others). This would also be a good opportunity to remove hard-coded brandings.

Holger

[Jaimyn Mayer]

Another suggestion, Open Source Autopilot?  Think OSAcopter, OSAplane, OSArover etc.  All of those names roll off the tongue fairly nicely without having to spell it out like APM.  Or a more generic one (without reference to a pilot) that could apply to all sorts of vehicles, Open Source Operator, "OSO", OCOcopter, OSOplane, OSOrover etc.

+1 on doing a poll

[Craig Elder]

Open Source was suggested earlier in this thread and that it is too close to the Open Pilot project's name.

On Mar 31, 2015 7:18 AM, "Jaimyn Mayer" <ad...@jabelone.com> wrote:

Another suggestion, Open Source Autopilot?  Think OSAcopter, OSAplane, OSArover etc.  All of those names roll off the tongue fairly nicely without having to spell it out like APM.  Or a more generic one (without reference to a pilot) that could apply to all sorts of vehicles, Open Source Operator, "OSO", OCOcopter, OSOplane, OSOrover etc.

+1 on doing a poll

--

[Bill Bonney]

I think suggestions for a name should fit these requirements

1. It's not an acronym ie ArduPilot, OpenPilot, AutoQuad, Iris, Phantom, MultiWii are all good name as examples. 
   
2. If it speaks to it's function, it needs to encompass all variants ie. ArduPilot, OpenPilot work, AutoQuad, MikroCopter doesn't
   
3. If it's decided the name should be a clean break from Arduino. Ardunio & Mega and APM should not me included in the naming
   
• Dropping Ardu from the name may make it clear that it's not really Arduino anymore,
• ... but it also loses the direct implication that the platform is born from the Maker hacker mentality
4. We need a coordinate a re-brand of the sites that have 'NewAutoPilotName' formerly (ArduPilot) consistently applied, with good SEO 

I think we should nominate an individual to run a process for a request for submission on a new name for the project, and then run a poll with intersted parties from devs to diydroners.

[That said, my feeling is that we should get behind the ArduPilot name, get rid of references to APM, fix the build to not use .pde so IDEs work to help not hinder and move on ;) ]

Bill

[Hamish Willee]

No plan to rename the URL, though IMO if we all end up happy with a name we should update it.

[Gary McCray]

Hi Bill,

I agree that having a name that doesn't already incorporate an acronym is a worthwhile goal.

But I also do not think that Ardu anything is appropriate either.

It refers to a technology (Arduino) that we pushed to it's upper limit and are now rapidly moving past and as such should be left in the past.

We are headed into much more complex technology, well beyond the scope of Arduino and clearly into a more Linux oriented world.

Best Regards,

Gary

[Doug Walmsley]

I like to propose that a contest be opened up on DIY-Drones to generate a new name.  Maybe 3DR could sweeten the pot with a prize for the winner of the contest.   I think all would be pleased at the results and it gives the community pride in continuing to the future name.

Just tossing in two cents.

~Doug Walmsley

--

[john...@gmail.com]

In my opinion since devs are the ones putting countless hours into this project, at the very least they should get to decide the name of all that hard work.

[Doug Walmsley]

I concur that the Devs should be the judges.  ☺

[Robert Lefebvre]

Don't want to speak for the other guys but...  I don't think it should be seen that we have more ownership over the project than everyone else.  It's supposed to be all community based.  The community needs to retain a feeling of ownership, as they do help with beta testing, bug finding, tech support, etc.  I'd be happy with nothing more than being able to have veto power over the final list being put to vote to be able to weed out any really bad ideas.

[Philip Rowse]

It's all a bit of a mute point now we are merging with DJI.

[Robert Lefebvre]

Shit, Philip.  This isn't public yet.   Somebody wake up Craig to scrub the DD record.

[Luis Vale Gonçalves]

Merging? I heard that Chris bought DJI and now it's 3DJR 

[Robert Lefebvre]

Not sure where you heard that.  

I see this has been leaked now.  I'm still not quite sure what's going on yet, when the effective date is, etc.

[Tom Pittenger]

so much for April Fools jokes...

[Doug Walmsley]

BA ZING GA!!!  

[Gary McCray]

Almost as good as Hobbykings Invisible Jet

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__80050__HobbyKing_Invisible_Jet_EP_NO_1100mm_PNF_.html?utm_campaign=010415.USW&utm_content=5164093714&utm_medium=email&utm_source=EDM

[Oleksandr Chendekov]

Bill is absolutely right - If we can't agree about the name, than we can discuss and agree about the requirements to the name.

I'll try to summarize requirements:
1. The name shouldn't rely on any other brand neither hardware nor software
2. The name should fit to any vehicle type we have and may have in future
3. The name shouldn't be an acronym
4. The name should be well searchable and SEO friendly
And one more from me
5. The name should be easily and disambigualy pronounceable (easy for non native speakers)

Other suggestions?

[David Pawlak]

"I don't think it should be seen that we have more ownership over the project than everyone else."

Besides, engineers aren't the best at creating marketable names!

[john...@gmail.com]

I don't really have any strong feeling towards any name, but we have a very healthy "brand" recognition with both ardupilot and apm. So I think moving away from both of them would be a mistake.