Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer (the Grand Argument Story)

[Sam Potter]

Here is my concept for this thread. For fun and edification I would
like to agree on a story form for this story ( here is a link to the
1964 Stop Animation TV special fan site - http://msmindy.com/rudolph/index.shtml
). I am not interested in arguing whether this is a tale or a fully
developed story. I want to agree on the best (or even good enough)
storyform and then take it all the way through the process of filling
in all the story points. I am particularly interested in filling in
Story Points that the TV special does not illustrate or illustrate
well and, in so doing, create a Grand Argument Story. Yes this heads
into the realm of Fan Fiction I suppose but I think it will be a very
useful process (and hopefully fun). I am also interested in aligning
the cast of characters (http://msmindy.com/rudolph/characters.shtml)
into the dramatica archetypes (or character elements, complicated or
not)

The full Video is available at:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7226220443648270051

My plan is to start this thread event Thanksgiving day.
Any thoughts? All are welcome.

Sam

[jim]

Cool idea. Pretty sure the MC Throughline will be Situation and I would love if Yukon Cornelius was the Contagonist, though I think he might be the Guardian. Haven't seen it in a year!

[Sam Potter]

They call me Mr. Red-Nosed Reindeer!

http://forums.screenplay.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&p=7792#p7791

[jim]

Ahh ok, I thought I had read this somewhere else before. Why do you want to do it again?

[Sam Potter]

It never happened. It was a misfit idea I had last January. So, I
hope it will happen this time. Maybe I should erase that link. Those
story forms I did on the fly and are not official. ;-/
What do you think.

[jim]

No, just leave it. It's a good idea for an exercise, though I suspect there will be little traffic until everyone is finished writing their novels this month!

[Mikeaja]

Now there's a challenge Jim - Dramatica for NaNoWriMo.

I think the rules would officially allow the use of Dramatica before
Novemeber, but I wonder what it could bring as far as helping with the
1600 word count. Saying that, I've never participated in it.

[Sam Potter]

Happy Thanksgiving! Everyone. I will start this discussion out with
the question I think Chris always starts with:
What is this story about?

[Sam Potter]

I will say it is about Misfits The event leading up to Christmas and
Misfits and how they fit in to Christmas. Maybe there is a more
succinct way to say this.

[Sam Potter]

Okay, so, "Misfits in the world of Christmas.

Next is, "Who is the main character?"
I will go out on a limb and say "Rudolph" is the MC.

So then, next is Essential Question #1: Main Character Resolve
Does your Main Character Change his way of dealing with the problem at
the heart of the story (such as Ebeneezer Scrooge's switch to
generosity in A Christmas Carol) or remain Steadfast in his
convictions(such as the innocent Dr. Richard Kimble in The Fugitive)?
I will argue that Rudolph is a STEADFAST resolve MC. His problems are
about his being different and not being accepted by his Christmas town
community. His convictions are to be accepted. He runs away but in
the end it is still their acceptance that will solve his problems. He
matures before he comes back. I guess you could argue that his
maturity is a gradual change and that in the end he doesn't need their
acceptance any longer. Either way he is still stuck with his shiny
red nose. I will still argue that his resolve is he has a red nose and
he may not like it but that is who he is and he is not going to hide
it. If he has to leave his home and be alone for the rest of his life
then so be it. What do you think of his resolve is, "I want to fit
in."?

[Sam Potter]

These are just arguments not definitive answers yet. I know most of
you have other things to do on Thanksgiving. But I will keep things
rolling and go on to
Essential Question #2:
Main Character Growth
Does your Main Character grow by adopting a new useful trait (Start)
or by outgrowing an old inappropriate one (Stop)? or If Rudolph is a
STEADFAST MC, is he waiting for others adopt a new useful trait
(Start) or to outgrow an old inappropriate one (Stop)?

If we go with my argument that Rudolph is Steadfast then I would say
that Rudolph is waiting for Santa and all of the other reindeer to
outgrow or STOP an old inappropriate trait.

I'll wait here for the night and see if anyone chimes in.

[Sam Potter]

STOP or START
here is a definition from
http://www.dramatica.com/theory/essential_questions/q2.html
"A Steadfast Main Character's make up, in contrast, does not change in
nature. He grows in his resolve to remain unchanged. He can grow by
holding out against something that is increasingly bad while waiting
for it to Stop. He can also grow by holding out for something in his
environment to Start. Either way, the change appears somewhere in his
environment instead of in him."

Let's leave this blank. it is "6 of one and half dozen of the other."
I could just as easily say Rudolph is waiting for Santa and others to
adopt a new and useful trait of acceptance. START. So I say leave it
blank.

[Sam Potter]

Okay, cue the crickets,
Question #3:
Main Character Approach
Is your Main Character a Be-er who mentally adapts to his
environment(such as Rick Blaine in Casablanca) or a Do-er who
physically changes his environment (such as John McClane in Die Hard)?

I am going to argue that Rudolph is a Do-er. He changes his
environment. He runs away. He feels that he is a danger to his
friends so he leaves. When he grows up and matures he realizes he
cannot run from his troubles so he goes back home. When Santa tells
him his parents and Clarice are missing because they went looking for
him he goes again to find them. He battles the Abominable to save his
family (he gets knocked out quickly but he doesn't think twice before
charging Bumble.

On Nov 24, 11:15 pm, Sam Potter <clint541...@gmail.com> wrote:
> STOP or START

> here is a definition fromhttp://www.dramatica.com/theory/essential_questions/q2.html

[Sam Potter]

I am going to talk about the Impact Character here. I will argue that
the IC is Christmas Town represented mostly by Santa Claus. I want to
bring this up now because I may be running into trouble and I would
like some help. The IC definitely changes in the end and realizes
that everybody is valuable or there is a place for everyone and they
were wrong to exclude those that were different.
BUT, as Chris always says, that is not how you make an argument for
the resolve of the MC. So, back to the question of Rudolph's
resolve. He has a shiny red nose. That is not going to change.
Rudolph meets up with Hermey and they run off to be independent
together. They have run up against Christmas Town who said they were
different and didn't fit in. Christmas Town said they were on the
wrong path and that they had better change and fit in. They don't see
themselves changing so they leave. About 36 or 37 minutes into the
video, Rudolph grows up and matures and realizes you cannot run away
from your problems and decides to go back to Christmas Town. If that
were the change that the story wanted I would argue Rudolph's story
would end there but it doesn't. (This might be an example of how the
Story Judgement is tied to the overall story Plot Dynamic) I am going
to stick with Steadfast for now and when we look at Rudolph's Symptom
and Response vs. Problem and Solution we shall see if that makes
sense. Any thoughts? (help)

[Sam Potter]

On to Question #4:
Main Character Problem Solving Style
Does your Main Character use a Linear problem solving style (such as
Clarice Starling in The Silence of the Lambs) or an holistic problem
solving style (such as Tom Wingo in The Prince of Tides)?

I can think of one example right now for Rudolph being a Linear
thinker. He and his friends cannot stay on the island of misfit toys.
When they go back to the mainland he knows his shiny red nose will put
them all in danger due to attracting attention from the Abominable
Snow-monster so he sneaks away to take on the danger alone. Cause and
effect. Let's see, what else? He doesn't fit in - so he leaves. He
realizes you can't run a away and hide from your problems - so he goes
straight back home. Snow Monster has Clarice - he says put her down.
There is no putting all of the pieces of the puzzle together first.
(I hope someone is watching who can let me know if my logic is
flawed.)

[jim]

Did you identify the four throughlines yet?

As is, the film doesn't represent a complete argument, but the point of this analysis isnt to see what's there, but rather what could be, right?

So you're saying:

Rudolphe MC (red nose)
Santa IC
OS? (deliver presents)
SS - working relationship?

Is that what you're thinking?

[Sam Potter]

Correct. The purpose of this exercise is to make a Grand Argument
Story out of an incomplete argument.
I'd say that is it:

Rudolph MC (red nose)
Santa Claus IC (you have to fit in)
Christmas OS (successful Christmas presents delivered)
SS (Christmas Town benevolent ruler/Christmas Town Subject)

What is your take on the mc resolve debate I was having with myself?

[Sam Potter]

The SS relationship may be more like a working relationship or an
extended family business with Santa as the Family Boss.

[Sam Potter]

Question #5:
Story Driver
Is the overall story driven by Actions first (such as the time
travellers arriving in The Terminator) or Decisions first (such as
Daniel Hillard's decision to impersonate a woman in Mrs. Doubtfire)?

I will argue for ACTION Driven. Rudolph is born with a red nose. .
All of the other reindeer laugh at him and call him names. Lets see
Overall Story. the Action of Christmas happens every year. Members
of the Christmas Town community are lost. The storm of the century
threatens to cancel Christmas. Rudolph has a shiny red nose.

[Sam Potter]

Question #6:
Story Limit
Is your overall story brought to its climax by running out of Time
(such as the 18 days to save the earth in Armageddon) or by running
out of Options (such as Thelma and Louise driving over the cliff in
Thelma and Louise)?

Some could argue that the limit is a time-lock because there is an
implied deadline to Christmas Eve, but I will argue for an Option-
lock. There really isn't a threat that Christmas might not happen
until the storm hits 2 days before Christmas. Bumble is said to hate
Christmas and everything about it but there is no evidence of that.
Once the storm does hit, Santa is running out of options as to how he
will pull off his magical ride this year. He's afraid he will have to
cancel Christmas.

[Sam Potter]

Question #7 and #8:

#7:Story Outcome
Do your character's efforts to achieve the overall story goal result
in Success (such as killing the shark in Jaws) or Failure (such as not
being able to open the dinosaur theme park in Jurassic Park)?

SUCCESS- Santa is able to make his magical Christmas eve ride and
deliver all of the toys (including the misfit toys) to good boys and
girls.

#8: Main Character Judgment
Does the Main Character resolve his personal problems and feel Good
(such as Luke finally trusting his skills in Star Wars) or not resolve
them and feel Bad (such as Clarice Starling still being haunted by her
childhood memories in The Silence of the Lambs)?

GOOD- Rudolph proves his worth and is accepted back into the
community. (He learns you cannot run away and hide from your
troubles)

[jim]

I would agree.

[Sam Potter]

Question #9:
Overall Story ThroughlineIf you pull back and look at the story from a
bird's eye view, which general area best describes the nature of the
problems ALL the characters are dealing with? Does the story's
conflicts stem from a Situation, an Activity, a Fixed Attitude, or
Manipulations?

It's all about pulling off that one big night of the year. A sleigh
with a team of the 8 best flying reindeer. Enough toys completed and
ready to give to all the good boys and girls (There are 2 billion
children in the world (persons under 18) according to the Population
Reference Bureau. At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per
household, that's 571 million homes. One presumes there is at least
one good child per house.) Mrs. Claus has to make sure he is fat and
jolly enough, and then there is the elf choir which must perform
impeccably or else Santa won't be happy.
I am going to say Overall Story is in ACTION throughline.

[Sam Potter]

I mean ACTIVITY. The ACTIVITY throughline, which, by the way forces
the Main Character Resolve (in the software) to be STOP.

"A Steadfast Main Character's make up does not change in nature. He

grows in his resolve to remain unchanged. He can grow by holding out
against something that is increasingly bad while waiting for it to

Stop. ... the change appears somewhere in his environment instead of
in him." http://www.dramatica.com/theory/essential_questions/q2.html

[Sam Potter]

Question #10:
Overall Story Concern
Which area of concern are ALL the characters in your story interested
in or worried about regarding the overall story goal? In this case it
will be a choice of concerns which fall under the ACTIVITY Domain:
Learning, Understanding, Doing, and Obtaining/Achieving.

I am going to stop here for the night before working on Concerns and
name the rest of the Domains. With Questions 1,3,4,5,7, & 8 chosen
the Dramatica program picks the MC Domain for us as SITUATION which
you should agree works very well. Rudolph is stuck with a bright
shiny red nose. The source of his troubles is his situation. This
automatically puts the IMPACT Character in Fixed Attitude (mind).
This works well because Santa and others of Christmas Town have a
strong fixed attitude or prejudice against "non-conformity" or misfits
or different than "normal". When we choose the OVERALL STORY in the
ACTIVITY domain that automatically puts the SS (Relationship Story) in
MANIPULATION (psychology or manner of thinking) Maybe someone else
can put this domain into words better than I. I did have a thought
regarding my problem with Rudolph's appearing to change due to
maturing (about 36 min. in) Could this be part of the Subjective
Storyline? showing change in the relationship with him and Christmas
Town?

Sam

[Sam Potter]

So to recap:
we have SITUATION for our Main
Character Rudolph.
He is born with a bright shiny red nose. He is stuck with this nose.
This situation is the source of his troubles. This puts the Impact
Character in the Domain of FIXED ATTITUDE.
Santa Claus, the IC, along with his minions, have a fixed attitude
regarding non-conformity, misfits, those that don't fit the norm,
different. Santa is not really a bad or mean guy, really, I mean,
after
all, it's all about pulling off that one big night out of the year.
It's all got to go like clockwork. You understand, don't you? One
cannot have a square cog in the middle of this well oiled Christmas
machine blowing the whole deal, right?
If you agree that Activity is the throughline for the OVERALL Story
then that makes the Subjective Story or Relationship Story in the
Psychology (manner of thinking) domain. (sometimes referred to as
the
Manipulation Domain) The source of trouble in the subjective
relationship in this story is the Process of Thinking about the
usefulness of reindeer with a bright shiny red nose in Santa's sleigh
team. the person with the power in this relationship cannot conceive
of a way that a reindeer that is so different could work in the cause
to get all the toys delivered without a hitch. In fact, that red nose
could hinder the effort.

Can anyone tell me if this thought is valid?
(Is my problem with Rudolph appearing to change (about
36 min. in) due to maturing is really part of the Subjective
Storyline. His resolve didn't change but his manner of thinking
matures.)

[Sam Potter]

Question #10
The Domain Concerns.
Using the Overall Story as the analytical frame in which we tell our
passionate Subjective Story I will look at the only two Concerns I
think are possible, Doing and Obtaining/Achieving. One could argue
for Doing, but I don't see this as a goal of the process of Christmas
as an ongoing goal. I see that this story is about one particular
Christmas in which the goal of Achieving (obtaining) Christmas this
year is the Concern. This is the Christmas that is in danger with the
terrible storm and creatures leaving Christmas Town and getting
captured by the Abominable.
So if we look at Achieving/Obtaining as the Overall Story Concern than
let's look at the corresponding Concerns in the other 3 Categories.
Rudolph(situation) would be Concern of the Future
Santa/Christmas Town (fixed attitude) would be Concern of Innermost
Desires
and the SS or Relationship Story (Manner of Thinking) would be a
Concern of Changing ones Nature.
That looks pretty good. I had a late start tonight so if anyone would
like to jump in and illustrate those concerns or make an argument for
another set of Concerns that would be great.

[jim]

So I guess the idea here is if you're not commenting or replying to someone's direct post that you should answer the first post? Not quite sure about the format here, but if you keep replying to replies that are replies to replies, the tree gets harder to navigate.

Hrm.

[jim]

OK yes, that seems to be it. Any new thoughts, new points should be posted using the reply on the first topic (Sam's first introduction). The follow-up replies (Post Reply gray box) should be used only when replying directly to that comment.

I guess. Seems less intuitive, but the massive quoted text makes it unreadable.

[jim]

Sam, overall I think what you have picked out is great and right on. As far as Issue/Problem goes, the really obvious candidate is Consider/Reconsider for a Problem/Solution.

Once you have the storyform it would be interesting to take the film's events and see which ones fit nicely into the Plot Progression. I suspect there will be MANY holes in the IC/RS throughlines.

[Sam Potter]

I had no idea this was growing like that.  I saw each message individually (with the option to expand)  Sorry about that.  I like the idea of being able to build threads off the original.  One branch for question 1, another for question 2, and so on.  I think I will use google documents to post a plot points document so people can  follow along as we fill in the plot points. I hope this experiment is finished by Christmas.  I don't know how many more times I can listen to "we are Santa's elves..." lol

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 1:06 PM, jim <james...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sam, overall I think what you have picked out is great and right on. As far as Issue/Problem goes, the really obvious candidate is Consider/Reconsider for a Problem/Solution.

Once you have the storyform it would be interesting to take the film's events and see which ones fit nicely into the Plot Progression. I suspect there will be MANY holes in the IC/RS throughlines.

--
Sam Potter

Screenwriter

WorkingMan Productions, llc

WorkingManPr...@gmail.com

[Sam Potter]

Respond to this branch to discuss to discuss CONCERNS.
Right now we are looking at:
OS= achieving(obtaining)
MC= Future
IC= innermost desires
SS(RS)= changing ones nature

On Nov 16, 5:58 pm, Sam Potter <clint541...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is my concept for this thread.  For fun and edification I would
> like to agree on a story form for this story ( here is a link to the
> 1964 Stop Animation TV special fan site   -  http://msmindy.com/rudolph/index.shtml
> ).  I am not interested in arguing whether this is a tale or a fully
> developed story.  I want to agree on the best (or even good enough)
> storyform and then take it all the way through the process of filling
> in all the story points.  I am particularly interested in filling in
> Story Points that the TV special does not illustrate or illustrate
> well and, in so doing, create a Grand Argument Story.  Yes this heads
> into the realm of Fan Fiction I suppose but I think it will be a very
> useful process (and hopefully fun).  I am also interested in aligning
> the cast of characters (http://msmindy.com/rudolph/characters.shtml)
> into the dramatica archetypes (or character elements, complicated or
> not)
>
> The full Video is available at:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7226220443648270051
>
> My plan is to start this thread event Thanksgiving day.
> Any thoughts?  All are welcome.
>
> Sam

[Sam Potter]

to illustrate(we must always illustrate our arguments)

OS goal of achieving- the goal in Christmas Town to have a successful
Santa Christmas Run (as it is every year)

MC concern of the future- Rudolph wants a future where he can be with
his friends and family and not be ridiculed, not be a misfit, to be
accepted. He also seems to be concerned with the future safety of his
friends and family.

IC concern of innermost desires- (Innermost Desires (a.k.a.
Subconscious) --[Type] -- dyn.pr. Impulsive Responses<-->Innermost
Desires -- basic drives and desires -- Innermost Desires describe the
essential feelings that form the foundation of character. These
feelings are so basic that a character is often not aware of what they
truly are. When the Innermost Desires are involved, a character is
moved right to the fiber of his being. -- syn. libido, id, basic
motivations, basic drives, anima)
Delivering on Christmas is a huge responsibility. Deliveries to
millions of homes in one night AND on top of that staying Jolly. The
success of that one night is at his core (and by extension all of
Christmas Town). I would say that attitude cannot be changed unless he
is reached at his core. I suppose the blizzard threatens him at that
core and so he may be vulnerable to change at that point.

SS(RS) concern of changing ones nature- IC wants misfits to conform
(change their nature). MC says we cannot change. Th nature of our
relationship is going to have to change. (ooh, conflict)

On Dec 2, 7:37 am, Sam Potter <clint541...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Respond to this branch to discuss to discuss CONCERNS.
> Right now we are looking at:
> OS= achieving(obtaining)
> MC= Future
> IC= innermost desires
> SS(RS)= changing ones nature

Sam

[Sam Potter]

Question #11:Overall Story IssueWhat is the thematic issue that
affects all of your characters in your story ?
Let's focus on the Main Character and the Overall story for now.For
the Rudolph the options for issue are Openness vs. Preconception or
Choice vs. Delay. Since Rudolph is a steadfast character stuck with/in
a situation we are looking for an issue outside of him that drives
him( if I am not mistaken.)  I do not see very many examples, if any,
where Rudolph's issues are caused by others choices or delays in their
making choices.  Once could argue that most of Christmas town has made
a choice to reject him but this doesn't seem like a strong choice to
me.  I was looking very strongly at Openness vs. Preconception with
focus on Preconception - adhering to a previous held view,
unwillingness to re-evaluate. but then Jim Hull suggested a problem/
solution of Consider/Reconsider for Rudolph. Which woke me up to the
possibility of focusing on Openness as the main issue. This seems to
be a tricky thing (is it usually at the issue level where it gets
trickiest), choosing a dynamic pair for an issue and choosing which
one to focus on. I was thinking the negative of Preconception being
the bigger issue but as a steadfast character working towards a
success / good ending it does make more sense for Rudolph to be driven
and moving toward Openness not driven and moving away from the
Preconceptions of the folks of Christmas Town.

Choosing Openness(issue) for Rudolph automatically chooses Morality as
an issue for the Overall Story (doing or being based on what is best
for others) with a dynamic pair of Self Interest.
For the Santa Claus,et. al. (impact character) the issue of Closure is
chosen for us. (dynamic pair of Denial)
and for the Relationship throughline we have an issue of
Responsibility with a dynamic pair of Commitment.
I should illustrate all of this but I will leave it for tomorrow
(unless some elf does it for me)
Sam