Migrating Oracle Forms to ASP.NET

[Karl]

Dear Anup,

Despite Michael's reservations, I would like to point out that
Forms2Net is a legitimate tool that can automate the conversion of
Oracle Forms (versions 4.5 up to 10g) to Microsoft .NET (Windows Forms
or ASP.NET Web Forms in either C# or VB.NET). Forms2Net is not a
language conversion tool but a platform migration tool: the resulting
application follows a completely new architecture, enabling easier
future maintenance and modification (e.g. SOA deployment).

To answer at least your first two questions:
1) ATX have developed a robust 7-step migration process from Oracle
Forms to Microsoft .NET.
2) Forms2Net is capable of automatically converting up to 100% of your
Forms applications to .NET, achieving a typical average of 80%. Of the
remaining code, Forms2Net provides a migration report to identify what
code needs attention, and a migration guide to give advice over how to
complete the code.

We would be happy to give you a demonstration of Forms2Net if you
would like to find out more.

Please feel free to contact me directly
Kind regards
Karl Dyer
ATX Technologies LTD

[Andrew Badera]

So what your product does is the job of any good developer when it comes to porting and refactoring?

And heck, let's throw in a gratuitous piece of jargon for legitimacy while we're at it ...

So where, exactly, is the value your product offers to a skilled developer?

I for one would never trust a tool of this nature -- there's are many reasons I'm paid well to do my job, and that doesn't include relying on unnecessary commercial products to achieve a result most likely not up to par with my normal output. (No offense, you could have a great product, but you're not in my head, and you don't know my software, you don't know the company context surrounding it, and all the other factors that play into producing top-notch code.)

--
--Andy Badera
http://andrew.badera.us/
and...@badera.us
(518) 641-1280
Google me: http://www.google.com/search?q=andrew+badera

[Michael O]

I have no reason to doubt your company delivers a legitimate product
and that whatever it really does it does well. In fact any
development team charged with migrating legacy Oracle Forms to *any*
platform can use all they help they can get.

However, my reservations are still firmly in place about what your
product (or similar ones I have seen) actually delivers. Can you
explain briefly how exactly you can automate the transformation of an
application that is rooted firmly in a stateful client-server
architecture into an SOA architecture. Because, if you can, saying
you can sounds rife with snake-oil-salesmanship. I'm honest with my
skepticism as well as my willingness to be convinced your product can
do something this transcendent.

Michael O
http://blog.crisatunity.com

[Karl]

To Andrew Bandera:

Sorry about the jargon, but I was only describing our tool's
capabilities
and that needs the inclusion of some technical terms. But then again,
this
is a technical forum.

What the tool does is automate part of a process that would otherwise
be
done manually. Forgive me the analogy but even the best mathematician
is not
as fast at making calculations than a calculator/computer.
The value that our tool offers to a skilled developer is saving
project
time. Forms2Net provides an average 80% saving in a migration project
time.
This means that a skilled developer can use it and keep his valuable
effort
to the tasks the tool was not able to deal with.

Of course, since you say you will never trust such tools, I am not
trying to
change your mind because it does not seem possible. My intention was
only to
reply to your queries.


To Michael O.:

You are absolutely right when you say that in migration projects with
Oracle
Forms as source, developers can use all the help they can get. That
was the
motivation for our company to invest in the development of Forms2Net.
Now we
have clients from all over the world using our product to facilitate
their
migration projects.

To address your specific concern on SOA migration, let me clarify in
how
Forms2Net can help in such a process. What Forms2Net does
automatically is a
migration of the original Oracle Forms architecture to an MVC
architecture
(Model-View-Controller - apologies to Andrew for more jargon).
Separating
the code that is concerned with presentation issues from the rest, is
one of
the steps required in migration to SOA. That was what I meant when I
said

"enabling easier future maintenance and modification (e.g. SOA
deployment)".

I did not state that Forms2Net would automatically migrate Oracle
Forms to
an SOA.

On Feb 1, 2:05 pm, Michael O <cleveridea....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have no reason to doubt your company delivers a legitimate product
> and that whatever it really does it does well.  In fact any
> development team charged with migrating legacy Oracle Forms to *any*
> platform can use all they help they can get.
>
> However, my reservations are still firmly in place about what your
> product (or similar ones I have seen) actually delivers.  Can you
> explain briefly how exactly you can automate the transformation of an
> application that is rooted firmly in a stateful client-server
> architecture into an SOA architecture.  Because, if you can, saying
> you can sounds rife with snake-oil-salesmanship.  I'm honest with my
> skepticism as well as my willingness to be convinced your product can
> do something this transcendent.
>

> Michael Ohttp://blog.crisatunity.com

>
> On Jan 31, 10:40 am, Karl <karl.d...@atxtechnologies.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dear Anup,
>
> > Despite Michael's reservations, I would like to point out that
> > Forms2Net is a legitimate tool that can automate the conversion of
> > Oracle Forms (versions 4.5 up to 10g) to Microsoft .NET (Windows Forms
> > or ASP.NET Web Forms in either C# or VB.NET). Forms2Net is not a
> > language conversion tool but a platform migration tool: the resulting
> > application follows a completely new architecture, enabling easier
> > future maintenance and modification (e.g. SOA deployment).
>
> > To answer at least your first two questions:
> > 1) ATX have developed a robust 7-step migration process from Oracle
> > Forms to Microsoft .NET.
> > 2) Forms2Net is capable of automatically converting up to 100% of your
> > Forms applications to .NET, achieving a typical average of 80%. Of the
> > remaining code, Forms2Net provides a migration report to identify what
> > code needs attention, and a migration guide to give advice over how to
> > complete the code.
>
> > We would be happy to give you a demonstration of Forms2Net if you
> > would like to find out more.
>
> > Please feel free to contact me directly
> > Kind regards
> > Karl Dyer

> > ATX Technologies LTD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Andrew Badera]

Karl,

Thanks for your reply.

I say I would never use a tool of this nature because, while well-intentioned, I've seen poor execution, over and over again, in similar efforts.

And sure, a computer can crunch numbers faster, analyze data, push out projections ... but that's only as effective as the underlying mechanisms that the software engineers of THAT product produce. And yes, while there are plenty of repeatable patterns in what we do, there are certainly some operations less pattern-friendly than others, and I'd rate conversion of a class of GUI with disparate, wide-ranging implementation high among them.

I'm always up for being proven wrong however, and if an Oracle person in this group has a great experience with your product, I'd love to hear about it.

--Andy Badera

[Michael O]

On Feb 1, 10:51 am, Karl <karl.d...@atxtechnologies.co.uk> wrote:
> Forms2Net can help in such a process. What Forms2Net does
> automatically is a
> migration of the original Oracle Forms architecture to an MVC
> architecture

@Karl

I'm one of few members of this list that have extensive Oracle
database and applications experience and perhaps the only regular
member with any custom Oracle Forms experience. You are not obligated
to explain your product, but you've just extended the same irrational
claim you made when stating that Forms2Net automatically converts
Oracle Forms into an SOA architecture. Saying that Forms2Net
automatically converts Oracle Forms into a MVC architecture is an
equally ridiculous claim - and again given without actual explanation.

Oracle Forms (for those blessed with ignorance of this abominable
product) is inherently *not* MVC. It is database model-driven 4GL
development platform. Your interface design is driven and usually
utterly dependent on the database model. If you choose to use Oracle
Forms to make something more MVC-ish and break this dependency (which
you can because it is a quite powerful platform) you abandon most of
the benefits of using the platform in the first place. Database model
dependency is what Oracle Forms does best. Stating that Forms2Net can
automatically convert Oracle Forms into MVC is the equivalent of
saying that it can convert your database schema and stored procedures
into a .NET application.

Like Andrew, I am skeptical because automatic conversion products like
this tend to reflect exactly the nature of your two posts in this
thread: Good natured but without substantive explanation. So Karl, I
ask you to walk away and take your lumps or post a substantive
*reason* why your product can do the seemingly impossible. Feel free
to post here or e-mail me directly as complicated explanation as you
require - take all the time you need. But if you post/send me
substantive-less marketing material, I will have only a reinforced
opinion of your product.

Michael O
http://blog.crisatunity.com

[Karl]

Michael and Andrew,

Whilst I did not wish to start a big public discussion on Forms2Net, I
would still like to address the issues raised. However, I suggest if
you need more, please feel free to contact me directly.

Anyway, Forms2Net _does_ convert Oracle Forms into MVC architecture,
_this is not a ridiculous claim it is a simple fact_. It's is true
that Oracle Forms does not has an MVC architecture, and that is why
Forms2Net is not merely a language conversion tool but a platform
conversion tool.
Forms2Net works at the architectural level first, mapping Oracle Forms
concepts into MVC concepts and only after it starts generating the
code for the new application converting, among other things, the
existing PL\SQL code into .Net code. This means for instance that a
database block item will be broken into different pieces in the target
MVC
architecture: it will be represented in a model class as a property,
in the view layer as control, and in the control layer will be all the
item's triggers properly hooked into the view using .NET the event
registration mechanism. By no means, is the process of converting
Oracle Forms into a .NET MVC application a trivial task and that is
one of the reasons it must always be done with a tool like Forms2Net
that automatically applies re-engineering techniques built by a
company that has a large experience in platforms migration, and in
developing re-engineering and migration tools.

About SOA, Forms2Net does not generate a SOA application, and that
claim is not made by Forms2Net. Forms2Net generates an application
that is SOA ready which is a completely different claim. What we claim
is that in the converted .NET application we will have all the
necessary building blocks to transform your application in a SOA
application which is a direct consequence of the MVC architecture of
the Forms2Net converted applications. Forms2Net does not try to
generate a SOA architecture because defining a correct Service layer
for an entire application is always something that needs to be
carefully designed, taking into account an organization existent and
future business processes, knowing all the remain integration
requirements and what is, the level of commitment of the entire
organization IT architecture with a SOA architecture.

If you want more information about how Forms2Net works, you can read
the paper we wrote with the University of Leicester (published through
Springer). It can be found at http://www.springerlink.com/content/d73u5r2741n661l5/.
This should answer any remaining questions.

Regards,


Karl

[Michael O]

> Whilst I did not wish to start a big public discussion on Forms2Net, I
> would still like to address the issues raised.

Remember you came here, we didn't come to you right? You have always
had the choice to walk away - as you still do now. I wish to continue
making this a big public discussion and there isn't anything you can
(or should want to) do to stop it from happening.

> However, I suggest if
> you need more, please feel free to contact me directly.

No I prefer here, because this forum is about everyone's benefit not
just yours and mine.

I accept your original and further clarification on SOA
transformations and completely retract my claim that you were stating
any such transformation happens. I totally misread your initial post
on the relationship your product has with an SOA architecture.

It was good that you gave some background on how you want others to
perceive how your tool works. However I don't see any explanation (or
links to explanations) that readers of the thread could possibly make
an informed and educated opinion on your claims of product efficacy.
For instance, you threw out an 80% conversion success claim, but no
real reasons why *only* or why *as much as* that number. So, I choose
to believe your explanation is hooey because it is composed almost
entirely of jargon that doesn't address the fundamental issues I
thoughtfully presented as obstacles to that number.

> If you want more information about how Forms2Net works, you can read
> the paper we wrote with the University of Leicester (published through

> Springer). It can be found athttp://www.springerlink.com/content/d73u5r2741n661l5/.

> This should answer any remaining questions.

How is this link helpful? I, for one, don't feel like shelling out
$250 for the content. Either dazzle us here with meaty content or go
away. Don't drop in, make dramatic claims, pepper us with jargon and
direct me to a $250 explanation.

In the end, I guess your link is helpful - it tangibly demonstrates
the financial and intellectual nature of what getting involved with
Forms2NET will be like for prospective clients.

Michael O
http://blog.crisatunity.com