Best of Both Worlds - Doable? APC40 as clip launcher and DMX hardware controller using Ableton Live & DMXIS

[StoneDog]

I'm impressed with the collective knowledge on this site. So, maybe
someone out there can help me solve this challenge...

I'm trying to multi-task with Akai APC 40/DMXIS/Ableton Live such that
I can use APC40 to launch clips but also use it as a midi hardware
controller for DMXIS. More specifically, APC40 and Live are working
great together to launch audio and midi clips... Separately APC40 is
working great with DMXIS as a stand alone DMX midi controller using
the "learn" functionality contained within DMXIS. What I really want/
need to do is combine BOTH of these functions so that I can launch
clips using the APC40 pads AND use the faders & knobs to serve as the
midi controller to control my light show in real time in DMXIS (e.g.
using the "learn" function).

I know that I can use Live to send midi program information (bank/
preset) via some of the tutorials and discussion threads that are out
there but I can't seem to find a way to have DMXIS "learn" the faders
and knobs if I'm operating it within Ableton Live as a VST or even if
I'm operating DMXIS outside of Live as a stand alone program (I assume
the later is because APC40 can only be associated with one program at
a time - and that may be the answer for why I can't multitask like I
would like ... but I thought I'd challenge this group to see if there
might be a way to do this).

So, my questions: How do I use the APC40 controller with Ableton LIVE
for launching clips while simlutaneiously using its knobs and faders
to control my lights in real time?

Thanks in advance!

Steve

[jkumin]

Steve,

I'm not familiar with the AKAI stuff, but the idea of routing MIDI to
various places is not too complex if you bring in 3rd party software.
MIDI PIPE in the Mac world is a name I've heard mentioned and I have
used MIDI Yoke for Windows machines on similar kinds of tricky issues.
Also, have you watched all the videos on the enttec.com website
pertaining to DMXIS? I think one or two are very relevant to use with
Ableton, so I wondered if you'd exhausted that resource already.


Jeremy

[Ethan]

If you do this, I will love you forever.

It's possible, I know that, but I've felt the limitations of the apc
40 trying to have virtual dj learn it. How about the footswitch
control on the back of the apc 40? In conjunction with the footswitch
on the dmxis? Just a possible control option.

But please make this happen. It would solve so many issues and save a
buttload of money from lighting controllers.

-Ethan

[Future Weapons]

Please, please, please somebody please provide a simple guide how to set this up! It would be amazing to actually use all the knobs and faders on my APC's for a change.

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[StoneDog]

All: Here is the response I received from Ableton Tech Support ... I
have not tried it yet but wanted to share. I plan to experiment more
later this week (or weekend). I looked at Live's Midi Map as I
assumed this is where the answer might lie but could not get it to
work - I'm assuming user error on my side. So, if this makes sense to
you and you are susccessful, please post update.

Jeremy: Thanks for the response. I had read about a midi yoke but do
not have experience with this... I'm hoping there is a direct way to
do this since it is all midi and should be universal but I may have to
come back around to using some type of third-party software to link
DMXIS and Live.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your email.

You can change the assignment of all of the knobs, faders and buttons
on the APC40 by enabling the Remote switches in the MIDI/Sync
Preferences.

By entering Live's MIDI Map Mode, you can override the pre-assigned
functions of all of the APC40's knobs, faders and buttons. So you can
delete all the assignments to the faders and knobs and map them to
your DMXIS. This should work fine, if the DMXIS is running in VST mode
and is listed in the Midi Map Mode.

If you have overridden the APC40’s default mappings with manual
mappings, you can easily switch back to the defaults by deactivating
the Remote switch of the APC40’s input port. Activating the switch
again will re-establish your manual mappings.

Referring to the DMXIS manual it has an integrated Midi-learn mode.
This will probably not work in VST mode, but you could use it in stand
alone mode, to test if the APC 40 is generally recognized by DMXIS.

We hope this could help you out. Feel free to contact us again, if you
have any further questions.

Kind regards,

Simon Stitz
Ableton Technical Support

> >http://groups.google.com/group/dmxis_users?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Dr Beats]

WORD
this was originally why I purchased the DMXIS. The idea of
controlling it all through Ableton is HUGE. Plus i am already versed
in Ableton so it seemed logical. I have made some progress in this
realm, but hit several bumps. I will share it all either way. Once I
have it all finalized I plan to make tutorials to show others, but
still some kinks to work out.

FIRST
the prime way I use the lighting features is through clip launching
NOT with the nobs/faders. They work well for some things, but not for
others.
What i have done is first make a new track in ableton session view for
EACH light you have in your arsenal. On each track place an
instrument rack then drag a new instance of DMXIS VST into that
rack . Inside the VST find the appropriate sliders for you the
corresponding light, and auto map those sliders to the rack.(this is
for the 8 knobs, it will turn green when you are mapping).
This should allow you to do what you want, but lets go farther.

Now create a dummy clip in the track. Inside that clip, change the
envelope parameters to match whatever setting you want. For starters
make 2 clips, 1 on and 1 blackout ( you will have to refer to your
lights DMX specs to get these values.
Once you get the idea, go through and make a clip for each setting of
each light you have. (This take A LONG time, I realize) For instance
I have on track 1, 2 par cans with 5 channels( they are both on the
same DMX address) Channel 1 is red. So in my dummy clip on this
track (i have named it and colored it red) i put the 1st envelope all
the way up and the others all down.
Similarly on my blackout dummy clip I have all channels fully down.
(notice they start at 100% on, also the numbers do not correspond so
you cant just type it in you will have to manually adjust everything,
its a pain but it works)
Now when you press the "red clip" it should turn your light red,
similary with the blackout. Turn off global quantize and you can play
"beats" along to a song. I use this setup in a band I perform with.
Its nice becuase you can change the lights as you see fit, its like
playing a keyboard almost.

NEXT
So in my setup I have 4 light channels. 1 is a set of par cans( 5
channel, R,G,B,Dim,Strobe fast-slow) 2 is a laser(4 channel R type, G
type, R rotation Fast-slow, G rotation fast-slow) 3-4 are 2
intelligent lights(7 channel Color, Gobo, X, Y, Dimmer, Strobe, Macro)
For each channel I have about 25 clips. I name them based on what
they do. Channel 1 for instance has red, green, blue, purple, purple
fast strobe, white strobe slow. Similarly with the laser.
The intelligent lights are a bit trickier but its the same idea. I
make a 1, 2 or 4 bar clip. On the X/Y channels draw the envelope
however you want. This will cause the light to move over the course
of the clip length. You can do this for any envelope.
Most of my clips are small and unwarped. You just need that initial
trigger to send the DMX message, so keep them short and DO NOT LOOP!

Finally. I place my 4 channels described above at line 50 and in the 8
-11 track spot in session view.
Channel1-7 are my control channels. This uses Midi Yoke(midi pipe on
mac). Firstly you must go into midi mapping mode and give each of you
dummy clips a mapping assignment. I use a midi keyboard to do this on
channel 16, so its out of the way of my APC and drum pads midi
assignments (apc uses channel 1-8 i believe).

Now in channel 1-7 (these are MIDI) create more dummy clips. Make
sure these channels all output to channel 16 In each of these clips
simply place a note that corresponds to the assignment you gave your
DMX channel clips. This allows you to make scenes based off of each
lights individual setting. I have an 7X5 grid of these "scene clips"
that i trigger with the APC or my IPhone(getting this working is a
whole other issue).

It works but is very hacky and tedious, BUT i am only using Ableton
DMXIS and Midi yoke, no other 3rd party apps.

IN SUM
Channel 1-7 MIDI control channels. These send midi notes through MIDI
Yoke back to channels 8-11.
Channel 8-11, 1 Channel for each light in your rig. Each has 25 clips
that control the individual lights parameters via envelopes in the
clip. These channels each have an instance of DMXIS running on them
with that lights DMX address faders atuomapped to a rack on that
channel

ISSUES
there are a few:
firstly, when using the clips, be sure your faders on each channel
(VST/instrument rack) are at 100%. If you dont Ableton will fire the
clip within the range that the fader is on. (if you knob is as 50%
and you fire a clip that has a parameter 50, it will fire at parameter
25 instead.
To work around this make another clip called "full on" where all
envelope setting are at 100%. When you fire this clip it will allow
you to use the knobs to run through your full range of DMX addresses.
Other wise, turning the knobs will only allow you to cycle through the
ranges that the last clip allowed. (on my "red clip" I can only cycle
through setting on channel 1, since in that clip, the other envelopes
are set to 0). Similarly in my "blackout clip" turning the knobs
does nothing, because the clip only allows you to cycle through the
available range ( 0 in this case)

I plan to post a full video tutorial as soon as i have some time later
this summer. This setup is not perfect but it does accomplish what I
set out to do. The biggest flaw is setting up new clips for each
light. I hoped I could just turn the knobs to the setting I wanted
and make a new clip but I have yet to find a way to accomplish this.
If that would work, this setup would rival anyones.

Hope this gets you somewhere. FYI There is very little info on how to
do this type of thing, so dont be discouraged. IT took me months to
get this working.
Happy Hunting
DR BEATS

> > >http://groups.google.com/group/dmxis_users?hl=en.-Hide quoted text -

[jkumin]

Speaking as a lighting guy, not an Ableton guru, this style of working
would make me a very unhappy camper. But to each his own, and if it
is a smooth workflow that gives you what you need, all well and good.
I will point out, however, that MIDI was never intended to support the
same kind of bandwidth DMX512 was engineered for, and there could be
technical problems at a layer behind the scenes which may cause
unreliable output---because DMXIS doesn't get all the info you expect
it will and therefore can't oblige you.

The program was designed to be used in a more high-level way, with
occasional special tricks being performed with MIDI mapping, not the
whole show. It will work if the show's smaller, but at some point as
your rig expands, you'll be trying to send more notes and CC's down
the pipe than can fit.

OK, </soapbox>

Jeremy

[Dr Beats]

Can you elaborate on the downfalls with this?

I dont really know how the back end of DMX works. I have however had
no issues using this setup, in terms of delay etc.
Again my rigs are fairly small but I do DJ a club with about 200
channels of DMX (8 intel. 16 led par cans in 2 groups, 4 lasers, smoke
machine) addresses and still no issues. My comp is a 2.5 ghz dual
core 4 MB ram.
It all seems to work for me but I would like to know if there is a
better way to do this. We are all here to learn right?

I use this way since Ableton is my main production / recording tool
and DMXIS was so inexpensive and easy to use. I can make pretty
complex light shows (albeit takes a LONG time) all while using my
samplers and synths within Ableton. I doubt a professional light crew
would go this route, but for a small time performer on a budget who
uses Ableton, there is no better option in my opinion.

[Tom Swirly]

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Dr Beats <tonyb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can you elaborate on the downfalls with this?

There are two main troubles with trying to run DMX lighting entirely through MIDI.

First, MIDI is slow!  It was spec'ed 30 years ago, and works astonishingly well today considering it was invented in a time when you measured disk sizes in K...

So each MIDI command takes about a millisecond to second.  1ms doesn't sound very long but instruments usually have multiple DMX channels, you might need to send multiple commands per channel, and you probably have multiple instruments.  It doesn't take much of this before your lights are out of sync to your music - it's particularly noticeable when you make scene changes and some lights dim a little late, or if you're doing a lot of rhythmic stuff.

I suspect this won't be an issue for most of the people using DMXIS, because it's a moderately-priced unit aimed IMHO at people like me who don't have many hundreds of DMX channels.

In your case, if you send exactly one command to each DMX channel you have, there will be 2/10s of a second delay between the first and last going off.  That's fairly bad, but sort of acceptable.

The other issue is much worse and makes DMX-over-MIDI unusable to me - it's that MIDI has only 7-bit resolution, which means that a "number" in MIDI can only be from 0-127 - whereas "numbers" in DMX can go from 0 to 255.

This is bad.  This means that you have to miss every other control value - your final DMX values will look like 0, 2, 4, 6.... 254 and you won't be able to hit odd-numbered DMX levels.  It's slightly bad that your fades will be less continuous - but DMX "levels" aren't just used for levels, they're used for positioning of moving head or scanner lights, which means you won't be able to place your spotlight "just so" - and worse, they're used for control settings, which means you simply won't be able to access some functions of your lights at all!

> I use this way since Ableton is my main production / recording tool

and DMXIS was so inexpensive and easy to use. 

Do not despair - DMXIS and Ableton will (I believe) allow you to use DMX correctly.

The key idea is that all DMX levels have to be set directly from the DMXIS application.  In other words, if you have fades, blackouts, or that sort of thing, they can be triggered from MIDI but you actually have to draw the curves within the DMXIS application.

And triggering from your APC should be fine too - it's simply having MIDI knob-twiddles that won't work.

(Please note that I haven't actually used the unit in live performance - I ended up planning a tour of Europe and decided not to bring any lighting at all so won't really get to use it until the Winter... so this is all from experimentation and reading the manual, not from the "heat of battle".)

[StoneDog]

All:

Additional update from Akai Pro. They also sent me a .pdf that shows
the midi mapping for the APC40 but I cannot find a way to attach it to
this post. But you may be able to conttheir technical support and ask
them to sen you the following file: APC40midimap.pdf In short, it
showed that each channel is assign to its own midi channel with
associated notes for each button starting with F2 / Faders are cc#7

Here is the rest of their message (albeit without the accompanying
embedded pictures):

Hello Steven,

Thank you for your interest in Akai Pro!

The APC Series are dedicated Ableton MIDI Controllers. Technical
support does not support mapping an APC Series to any DAW outside of
Ableton. I have attached the MIDI map for the APC40 to this e-mail. If
you require further information regarding the APC controller’s Midi
output you should run tests using a Midi utility. Additionally, to
route MIDI to two open DAW's yuo would need to learn to use a MIDI
router, like MIDI Yoke, which is free from the MIDIOX website, as
well.

In addition to the test below using MIDI-OX, you can also use Send SX
(Windows) or MIDI Monitor (Mac).

These programs will let you know if and what MIDI information the
controller is sending.

SendSX: http://www.bome.com/products/sendsx <-- CLICK HERE

MIDI Monitor: http://www.snoize.com/MIDIMonitor/ <-- CLICK HERE

This test is for the Windows operating system.

Download and install MIDI-OX version 7.0: http://www.midiox.com/ <--
CLICK HERE

Before you run MIDI-OX connect the MIDI Controller and power on.

1. Run the application MIDI-OX and you will receive a window that
looks like this:

2. Select the Options menu and select MIDI Devices. Make sure to
select MIDI inputs and MIDI Outputs for the MIDI controller, in this
case the USB Audio Device and click OK; your window should look like
this:

3. Select the View menu and select Input Monitor; your window will
look like this:

The window above contains MIDI input information from the APC40. The
field type, Data1, contains the CC information of the APC40 after
movement from a fader knob.

You will be able to provide yourself with an additional map using this
or the previously mentioned applications.

If you have any more questions, feel free to reply to this email or
you can reach our support department for troubleshooting over the
phone and/ or repair authorization by calling us at 401-658-4032 ext
1409. We are available to help you 8:30am - 6:30pm EST Monday through
Friday (except holidays).

Best Regards,

Sean Reardon

Technical Support & Warranty Authorization
Numark | Alesis | Akai Professional | ION Audio | MixMeister | ▲lto
Professional
200 Scenic View Drive
Cumberland, RI 02864
Akai Pro Phone Support: 401-658-4032
Email: Sup...@AkaiPro.com

On Aug 4, 12:50 pm, Tom Swirly <t...@swirly.com> wrote:

> functions of your lights *at all!*
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *> *I use this way since Ableton is my main production / recording tool

> and DMXIS was so inexpensive and easy to use.
>

> Do not despair - DMXIS and Ableton *will* (I believe) allow you to use DMX
> correctly.
>
> The key idea is that *all DMX levels have to be set directly from the DMXIS
> application.*  In other words, if you have fades, blackouts, or that sort of
> thing, they can be *triggered* from MIDI but you actually have to draw the

[StoneDog]

Success!!!! And, look ma, no midi yoke!

(I wish there was a way to post screenshots on Google Groups but I
haven't fiqured that one out yet ... :-) So, I will do my best to
describe the process I used but, note, I am not (yet) LIVE savy. And,
so, I may not be describing things as they do, but I will be as
descriptive as possible)...

First, per my post from Ableton tech support, their email basically
points you in the right direction. Make sure that you set up DMXIS as
a VST per the instructions on ENTTEC's website (e.g. put in a return
channel in LIVE, assign your midi channel's midi out to DMX with
proper midi channels assigned for changing bank & programs. etc.).

Second, once you have all of the channels set up with proper midi
assignments, go to the Plug-in-Window in LIVE and click on the upside
down triangle to "unfold" the device parameters. Click on
"configure." This should open up the DMXIS VST in its own a VST
window (if it wasn't already) and will provide the space in LIVE for
you to "add" your parameters.

Third, in the DMX VST window, move the fader/knob that you want to
control. This should create a "parameter" in the DMX VST Device
window/area of LIVE and LIVE will auto assign it to the first knob on
the APC40 device control section. Once assigned, you can "test" it by
moving the knob on APC40 and see it move in DMXIS. Continue the
process. You will notice that Ableton will auto assign the 2nd
parameter to the 2nd knob and so on... Unfortunately, you have to do
each DMX channel individuals - I was unable to double click, e.g., on
all "red faders" as DMX does in order to assign them to LIVE
parameters...

NOTE: LIVE stops assigning after 8 but you can continue to add
parameters. However, you won't be able to "test" them until you
actually map these per the next step. Depending on the numbder of
parameters you are looking to map, you may want to do some mid-course
maintaneance as I did just to keep stuff straight ...

Fourth, open up the midi mapper in Live - you can do this via a right
click over the green parameter or clicking "midi" in the upper right
corner of the main screen in LIVE. The green boxes around the
parameters should turn purple. (Note, if you don't see the green
shading around the parament, you may have to click "configure"
again). Click on the parameter/DMX channel box that you want to
assign a controller from the APC40 unit and then move the physical
controller. As you move it, you should see it register in the upper
left box called Midi mappings. If you want to assign one knob for
multiple DMX channels (as I did), simply repeat the process (click on
the purple parameter and move the APC40 knob/fader.

NOTE: In my case, I was looking to assign the main dimmers (as a
group), the strobe effect (as a group) and the color faders (each
color as its own group). If you do a number of these in a row, it
would good write them down as the Device plug-in will only show the
DMX channel so you will have to remember what is the "red fader" v.
"dimmer" v "strobe" and this is from this fixture A and this is
fixture B, etc. In total, I added 43 parameters that I then assigned
to the 8 Device control knobs on the APC40). I also texted to see if I
could assign the master level in DMXIS to the Master fader on the
APC40 - it worked as well but I reomved as I don't think I needed it
but I wanted to be sure we could map beyond the 8 device knobs. We
can... :-)

Last step - rock out... (okay after I program the light show) but... I
looks like my sound man can now launch backing tracks, "adjust" the
strobe in real time to accellerate it for effect if so desired, add a
little blue to the red wash, and do a master fade with the end of the
song.... all via the APC40 and LIVE!! I'm so stoked about this new
toy!

Any way, hope this makes sense and helps all of those looking to do
something similar.

Let me know if you find any issues or suggested tips and tweaks...

Keep rockin'

Steve a/k/a StoneDog

Come Join the StoneDog Nation at www.reverbnation.com/stonedog

> phone and/ or repair authorization by calling us at401-658-4032begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            401-658-4032      ext

> 1409.  We are available to help you 8:30am - 6:30pm EST Monday through
> Friday (except holidays).
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Sean Reardon
>
> Technical Support & Warranty Authorization
> Numark | Alesis | Akai Professional | ION Audio | MixMeister | ▲lto
> Professional
> 200 Scenic View Drive
> Cumberland, RI 02864

> Akai Pro Phone Support:401-658-4032begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            401-658-4032      
> Email: Supp...@AkaiPro.com

> > experimentation and reading the manual, not from the "heat of battle".)- Hide quoted text -

[StoneDog]

Now that the new Google Groups! allows pictures to be uploaded, thought I would post pictures so that folks can better understand what I was trying so hard to describe by words alone....

 

A picture is worth a thousand words as they say ... :-)

 

Steve