3rd RFD: sci.lang.scandinavian
Thomas Martin Widmann
unmoderated group sci.lang.scandinavian
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a
world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup sci.lang.scandinavian. This
is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Procedural details are below.
Newsgroup line:
sci.lang.scandinavian The North Germanic (Nordic/Scandinavian) languages.
Changes from previous RFD:
The word "Scandinavian" has in many places been replaced by "North
Germanic" or "Swedish, Danish and Norwegian" to clear up matters.
In the rationale a paragraph has been added that clears up the status
of Icelandic, Faroese and English.
In the charter it has been specified that the charset is ISO-8859-1
unless there is consensus to change this.
RATIONALE: sci.lang.scandinavian
Today the discussion of the Scandinavian (also called "North Germanic"
and "Nordic") languages mostly takes place in the national groups
dk.kultur.sprog, no.fag.spraak.diverse, se.humaniora.svenska (also
known as swnet.svenska), and is.islenska. Some discussions also take
place in the international groups sci.lang and soc.culture.nordic.
Real Scandinavian discussions unfortunately involve cross-posting to
all Scandinavian groups, which is hardly satisfactory (some people may
forget to cross-post, and it may confuse many newsreaders).
Another problem is that many discussions with a Scandinavian scope are
often limited to one of the national groups. This can make it
difficult for interested persons to find such discussions and take
part in them.
In sci.lang and soc.culture.nordic there are only few people with a
profound knowledge of the Scandinavian languages; this means that it
is not the right place to discuss them. Furthermore, discussions
often move quickly away from the original topic.
Why "...scandinavian"? The languages in question are commonly
referred to as the _North Germanic_ languages in linguistic
terminology. In the Scandinavian languages themselves, they are
normally called the _Nordic_ languages. However, in English the
established word seems to be _Scandinavian_.
About the discussion languages: Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian (both
varieties) are mutually intelligible -- at least in their written
form. Until recently in Iceland, and still on the Faroe Islands,
Danish was/is the first foreign language taught in school. Hence it
will be natural to use Swedish, Danish and Norwegian for discussion.
This will also ensure that posters are knowledgeable about the
Scandinavian languages.
Posters are also welcome to write in Icelandic or Faroese, but they
should bear in mind that this might restrict their audience. Posters
may also write in English, but they should respect the fact that
others write in North Germanic languages.
CHARTER: sci.lang.scandinavian
Discussion of the North Germanic languages, i.e. Old Norse, Swedish,
Danish, Norwegian, Icelandic, and Faroese, including dialects and
written varieties.
Appropriate topics of discussion include (but are not limited to)
phonetics, morphology, syntax, historical developments, dialectology,
the future of the languages, orthography, the runes, teaching/
learning, proposals for unifying the Scandinavian languages, and
influences on other languages.
Note the "sci." prefix. The main concern here is with _facts_ and
theories accounting for them.
Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.scandinavian is not meant to
substitute for a dictionary or even a college library. Posters should
be careful to check the FAQ lists and read the group for a while first
to avoid asking repetitious questions.
Discussions will be held primarily in Swedish, Danish and Norwegian,
due to their mutual intelligibility, but postings in other languages
are welcome. Participants should generally have some knowledge of a
North Germanic language.
A phonetic alphabet for use in discussions of phonetics shall be
defined in a FAQ. The character set shall be ISO 8859-1 (Latin 1),
unless there is consensus in the group to choose another.
Posting of binaries is prohibited. If images are required as part of
a discussion, they should be put up at an FTP or WWW site with a
pointer (URL) to said images posted, or they should be posted to a
binaries newsgroup.
Commercial advertisements, general political discussions, flames, and
such nonsense are not appropriate in this group. (But information
about relevant conferences, new books etc. is welcome.) The general
"netiquette" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers
all apply to sci.lang.scandinavian.
END CHARTER.
PROCEDURE:
This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue
for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this
proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For
Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion
warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.
All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.
This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation
guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How
to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these
documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any
questions about the process.
DISTRIBUTION:
This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups
news.groups
soc.culture.nordic
sci.lang
se.humaniora.svenska (also known as swnet.svenska)
dk.kultur.sprog
no.fag.spraak.diverse
is.islenska
and to no mailing lists.
Proponent: Thomas Martin Widmann <vira...@daimi.au.dk>
David Bostwick
unmoderated group sci.lang.scandinavian
Instructions for voting are just before the ballot itself. Please read
them before voting. If you have questions about the voting process,
ask the votetaker.
This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker. It is not to be
posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by
the votetaker, and it is not to be placed on the World Wide Web. Ballots
or CFVs provided by anyone except the votetaker will be invalid.
Newsgroups line:
sci.lang.scandinavian The North Germanic (Nordic/Scandinavian) languages.
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 26 Apr 2001.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: Thomas Martin Widmann <vira...@daimi.au.dk>
Votetaker: David Bostwick <bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu>
RATIONALE: sci.lang.scandinavian
CHARTER: sci.lang.scandinavian
Posting binaries is prohibited, with the exception of small binaries
such as PGP signatures. If images are required as part of a
discussion, they should be put up at an FTP or WWW site with a pointer
(URL) to said images posted, or they should be posted to a binaries
newsgroup.
Commercial advertisements, general political discussions, flames, and
such nonsense are not appropriate in this group. (But information
about relevant conferences, new books etc. is welcome.) The general
"netiquette" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers
all apply to sci.lang.scandinavian.
END CHARTER.
IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING
Only one vote is allowed per person or per account. Duplicate votes
will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote. Addresses and
votes of all voters will be listed in the final voting results post.
Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker. Anonymous,
forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid. Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered to be anonymous votes.
The use of spam blockers or other munged addresses will prevent you from
receiving an acknowledgement of your vote. If the address cannot be
verified, the ballot will be disallowed.
Vote counting is automated, and failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted. If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem. It is your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly.
The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup. Soliciting votes from
uninterested parties defeats this purpose. Please do not distribute
this CFV. Instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to
news.announce.newgroups. Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.
HOW TO VOTE:
Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before the
"BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and after the "END OF BALLOT" lines. Don't worry
about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your
reply inserts. Please do not send the entire CFV back to me.
Fill in the ballot as shown below. Please provide a valid name and
indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot.
When finished, MAIL the ballot to: <bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu>.
Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.
Examples of how to properly indicate your vote (do not vote here):
[ YES ] example.yes.vote
[ NO ] example.no.vote
[ ABSTAIN ] example.abstention
[ CANCEL ] example.cancellation
DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot!
If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.
If these instructions are unclear, please ask the votetaker.
======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line =======
.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Do not edit anything in this ballot, except to add your name and vote.
|
| 1ST CALL FOR VOTES: sci.lang.scandinavian
| Official Usenet Voting Ballot <SLS-0001> (Do not remove this line!)
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Please provide a valid name, or your vote may be rejected. Place
| ONLY your name (i.e., do not include your e-mail address or any other
| information) after the colon on the line below.
Voter name:
| Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each
| newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):
Your Vote Newsgroup
--------- -----------------------------------------------------------
[ ] sci.lang.scandinavian
======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============
This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 27 1997).
PQ datestamp: 980322
--
Voting address : bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu
David Bostwick
unmoderated group sci.lang.scandinavian
Votetaker: David Bostwick <bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu>
RATIONALE: sci.lang.scandinavian
CHARTER: sci.lang.scandinavian
END CHARTER.
HOW TO VOTE:
..-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Do not edit anything in this ballot, except to add your name and vote.
|
| 2ND CALL FOR VOTES: sci.lang.scandinavian
| Official Usenet Voting Ballot <SLS-0002> (Do not remove this line!)
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Please provide a valid name, or your vote may be rejected. Place
| ONLY your name (i.e., do not include your e-mail address or any other
| information) after the colon on the line below.
Voter name:
| Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each
| newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):
Your Vote Newsgroup
--------- -----------------------------------------------------------
[ ] sci.lang.scandinavian
======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============
This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 27 1997).
PQ datestamp: 980322
--
Voting address : bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu
sci.lang.scandinavian Bounce List - These votes have been recorded
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
foga...@softhome.net Daniele Fogazzi
l...@pingvin.itk.ntnu.no Lars Imsland
David Bostwick
unmoderated group sci.lang.scandinavian fails 111:16
There were 111 YES votes and 16 NO votes, for a total of 127 valid votes.
There were 7 abstains and 2 invalid ballots.
For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.
There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.
Unless serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the group may
not be voted on again for six months.
Newsgroups line:
sci.lang.scandinavian The North Germanic (Nordic/Scandinavian) languages.
The voting period ended at 23:59:59 UTC, 26 Apr 2001.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
Votetaker: David Bostwick <bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu>
RATIONALE: sci.lang.scandinavian
CHARTER: sci.lang.scandinavian
END CHARTER.
sci.lang.scandinavian Final Vote Ack
This list is not to be used for mailing purposes
Voted Yes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
216-5888 <at> mcimail.com Arthur L. Rubin
a9301078 <at> unet.univie.ac.at Anna Ballanti Neufeld
aaks <at> online.no Marius Svenkerud
ablehr <at> online.no Anders Blehr
abraham <at> dina.kvl.dk Per Abrahamsen
ahegghei <at> online.no Asle Heggheim
alberlie <at> online.no Kare A. Lie
alexander.backlund <at> mailbox.hogia.net Alexander Backlund
alexis.manning <at> gte.net Alexis Manning
alloran1 <at> aol.com Daniel Briggs
arntrich <at> stud.ntnu.no Arnt Richard Johansen
Aspsusa <at> gmx.net Antonia
bouvin <at> daimi.au.dk Niels Olof Bouvin
brandt <at> etklikherfra.dk Peter Brandt Nielsen
chran <at> chran.dk Christian Andersen
chuck <at> cts.Armstrong.EDU Charles Shipley
cindy <at> nethelp.no Cindy Kandolf
cml <at> df.lth.se Malte Lewan Neelsen
coward <at> tele.ntnu.no Helge Coward
dc <at> panix.com David W. Crawford
demeter <at> home.se Andreas Lundgren
dfrost <at> maths.tcd.ie Dermot Frost
dms <at> nutri-matic.fsnet.co.uk Des Small
dodcopman <at> netscape.net Dodcop Manning
Dougob745 <at> aol.com D. David O'Brien
dsl41992 <at> vip.cybercity.dk Bo Hansen
edwardp <at> rcn.com Edward Dittmer
Ekkehard.Uthke <at> gmx.de Ekkehard Uthke
ellis <at> spinics.net Rick Ellis
emiloluf <at> hotmail.com EPOS
eramaker <at> radio.fm E. Ramaker
evert <at> responding2.com Evert Meulie
exebiche <at> DE5327.spb.edu Dmitri Evmenov
faulds <at> es.co.nz Stuart Brodie Faulds
fernbom <at> df.lth.se Hugo Fernbom
fogazzid <at> softhome.net Daniele Fogazzi
fungus <at> OCF.Berkeley.EDU Hank Fung
gcz <at> falkoping.mail.telia.com Gunnar Creutz
goodtimegal <at> heartofgold.com Wu Wu Meng
hakon.alstadheim <at> oslo.mail.telia.com Håkon Alstadheim
harder <at> ifa.au.dk Jesper Harder
helge <at> nareid.demon.co.uk Helge Nareid
hobbes <at> post1.tele.dk Rasmus Underbjerg Pinnerup
hotdog <at> daimi.au.dk Niels O. Jensen
j-willen <at> online.no Jonas Wellendorf
JamesRHeckman <at> gateway.net James R. Heckman
jan.bohme <at> sh.se Jan Bohme
janeb <at> stud.ntnu.no Jan Erik Breimo
jardar <at> nvg.ntnu.no Jardar Eggesbø Abrahamsen
JC <at> DMF.DK Jens Gyldenkaeme Clausen
jdg <at> diogenes.sacramento.ca.us John David Galt
jean <at> seti.u-strasbg.fr Jean BENOIT
jeeves <at> malpeque.org Olav Nieuwejaar
jeff <at> rufinus.cs.widener.edu J Rufinus
jon <at> thomson2273.freeserve.co.uk Jon Thomson
jorgengb <at> netcom.no Jorgen G. Bosoni
JR <at> aalborghus.dk Poul Erik Joergensen
jwmurphy700 <at> mindspring.com Joseph W. Murphy
kdaugaard <at> bigbluebox.com Kaspar Daugaard
kedegrennicolaus <at> home.com Nicolaus Kedegren
kim <at> mel.comcen.com.au Kim Bastin
kjetil.kjernsmo <at> astro.uio.no Kjetil Kjernsmo
kneecap <at> netnet.net Neal Cappel
leec <at> xmission.com Lee Choquette
lostpuppy3 <at> hotmail.com Horace Compnickski
lsi <at> pingvin.itk.ntnu.no Lars Imsland
mail <at> jeppesn.dk Jeppe Stig Nielsen
martin.andersson <at> utfors.se Martin Andersson
mmontcha <at> OregonVOS.net Matthew Montchalin
mmrosa <at> bigpond.com Michal Rosa
mortena <at> ii.uib.no Morten N. Åsnes
nbache <at> post5.tele.dk Niels Bache
ndallen <at> interlog.com Nigel Allen
nhu <at> functor.tcs.hut.fi Nisse Husberg
nis <at> dkik.dk Nis Jørgensen
norma.granild <at> mail.tele.dk Norma Granild
nospamto <at> lundhansen.dk Bertel Lund Hansen
orange <at> hem.passagen.se CHRISTIAN HENRIKSSON
osvik <at> os.enitel.no Svein Osvik
Otto-Ville.Ronkainen <at> ling.helsinki.fi Otto-Ville Ronkainen
oyvind.seland <at> geofysikk.uio.no Oyvind Seland
pallej <at> ifa.au.dk Palle Jorgensen
patchew <at> uclink.Berkeley.EDU Patrick Chew
pcj <at> opera.no Per Christian Jorgensen
peter <at> makholm.net Peter Makholm
peter <at> softwolves.pp.se peter karlsson
peteralf <at> fabel.dk Peter Alfredsen
phaglund <at> post.netlink.se Peter Haglund
piranha <at> gooroos.com piranha
riihonen <at> utu.fi Esa Riihonen
roelofs <at> f2s.com Mees Roelofs
salazar <at> ix.netcom.com Richard Salazar
sforsell <at> aol.com Scott Forsell
sh <at> aub.dk Stefan Holm
SQ <at> pallas.dk Soren Kann
squid <at> panix.com Yeoh Yiu
steinjr <at> online.no Stein J. Rypern
sth <at> andrew.cmu.edu Steve Hayashi
tim <at> timschroeder.de Tim Schroeder
tjerick <at> telusplanet.net Tim Erickson
tlongfellow <at> cybertrails.com Todd W. Longfellow
toejam_78 <at> hotmail.com Toejammn Mann
toivo <at> ucs.uwa.edu.au Toivo Pedaste
tor <at> spacetec.no Tor Arntsen
torsm <at> hotmail.com Tor S. Mehus
u31309338 <at> telia.com Frank Östhagen
Vanish8080 <at> aol.com Christopher Sundita
viralbus <at> daimi.au.dk Thomas Widmann
virus <at> fraqz.archeron.dk Torsten Poulin
vote-sci.lang.scandinavian <at> newton.digitalspace.net Philip Newton
votefraud <at> pyrophore.ogoense.net UVV
Voted No
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
amcmicha <at> Princeton.EDU Andrew McMichael
charleshhoffmann <at> home.com Charles Hoffmann
fran_keeling <at> my-deja.com Frances Margan Keeling
lbriteyes <at> uscx.net Linda Channell
lord_terabyte <at> cox-internet.com Keith Hardwick
pan <at> syix.com Pan
Paul.Echeverri <at> eng.sun.com Paul Echeverri
rick <at> bcm.tmc.edu richard miller
robertpo <at> interconnect.net Robert Polansky
shrao <at> nyx.net Shrisha Rao
sj_evans21 <at> yahoo.com.au Sydney James Evans
stainles <at> bga.com Dwight Brown
star.wolf <at> erols.com Dan Wright
tubaman <at> rocketmail.com Jerold Korinek
vote-sls <at> usenet.th-h.de Thomas Hochstein
wiz <at> lart.com Wiz
Abstained
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
aahz <at> pobox.com Aahz
absinthe <at> teleport.com Terry Freeman
kmorgan <at> aptalaska.net Kathy I. Morgan
lsimonetta <at> my-dejanews.com Leo G Simonetta
miguel <at> nn.cl Miguel Farah F.
neyret <at> wanadoo.fr Laurent Neyret
r.vanette <at> pink.nl Robert-Jan van Ette
Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jmo <at> lysator.liu.se Johan Olofsson
! Provided illegal ballot
tcperris <at> aol.com Truly Perris
! Invalid ballot
Johan M. Olofsson
>The problem is that not enough people thought it was a "very needful
>thing". Had it been that needful, quantitatively, it would have
>gotten enough votes to pass. Votes in the vicinity of 100 YES
>indicate little interest (or little interest in voting). Either
>the proponent and his supporters misjudged the level of interest,
Personally, I do not think the proponent did misjudge the level of
interest. I think a narrow vote turnout was expected by everyone who has
followed Usenet for some years.
Scandinavian languages, as Scandinavian issues in general, has not proved
to interest many more Usenetters than so.
Alternatively one could think that this instead is a true indicator of
Usenet's limited attraction? :-<
Widmann's proposal tried to address one of the possible reasons by
declaring the Scandinavian languages as preferred discussion languages;
instead of English. Obviously this wasn't enough.
>Look, no one is preventing a scandanavian language group from being
>created. One can go to alt.* or start a web board, or... It just
>so happens that you can't create it on this PART of usenet, or as you
>want it, on this part of the internet.
I think many Scandinavians already have concluded that this part of Usenet
isn't for Scandinavian issues, and _that_ being one of the reasons why not
enough people vote for Usenet groups on Scandinavian issues. :-//>
This is nothing we instantly can do much about.
[ regarding news group names that are obvious pranks etc etc]
>And not many of those groups are part of the Big-8, not many of those
>involved this process. That also means, if you go to those areas of
>usenet, you probably could get the group you want.
Yes, but we do not get the _audience_ we want, and that's the problem. If
Usenet has a somewhat shady reputation, the alt.-hierarchy has a massively
black reputation as a juvenile playground.
Who might be interested in the topics of the proposed groups?
1/ Scandinavians with a language interests
2/ Students and teachers of Scandinavian languages
3/ Scandinavians working abroad
(Tend to get a warm interest in the mothertongue.)
Couldn't these people, who doesn't seem to be such a big crowd that the
group creation rules require, find something more suitable than a Big Eight
newsgroup to fit their needs?
Mailinglists are bad alternatives.
Using existing international groups (sci.lang, soc.culture.nordic) has been
ruled out as other issues are shadowing the few posts on Scandinavian
Languages.
Crossposting between four national hierarchies is no good solution either,
not mentioning the national hierarchies might be hard to reach from abroad.
>The results
>simply tell the proponent he apparently chose the wrong part of usenet
>for his proposal. Not his fault, this is just the way he found out.
My question is: Is it good or bad for Usenet to say NO to this kind of
smallish but serious groups?
In which direction will Usenet develop?
--
Johan M. Olofsson
Rådmansgatan 23 f
211 46 Malmö
Sweden
(don't mix me up with my Usenet Cabal "namesake")