Django - Worldwide Developer Rates - Hourly Income - location and project duration specific

[Raphael]

Hello djangos,

I have talked to Kurtis and he thinks its a good idea to update the django developer rates for 2012.

So we are going to do some worldwide statistics on the average hourly rates on django related projects in consideration of project specific parameters. (details below)
As we think this is going to boost developers income worldwide. Know what you are worth!

But before we do those statistics - we need you to provide some project data under the following URL:
http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/?page=1#post-257943

Contributors - please declare the following information:

• project - location/country (Great Britain, USA, China, ...)
  project - beginning year (2010, ...)
  project - duration (1 month, 3 months, 12 months, ...)
  project- description - short/one line (Examples: eCommerce, Forum, Parcel-API, Music-Store, Search Results Page, ERP, Real-Estate,...)
  project- team-size (Examples: One person, Group of 2, 3, 4... )
  agent/middleman Is there an agent/middleman between you (the developer) and the client YES|NO
  agent-margin If middleman - what do you think is his margin? (Examples: 15%, 25%, ...)
  $ Hourly Rate - in US-Dollar (we are located in Europe - but lets do this in USD please)
  Additional Information - please feel free to provide additional information
  

If your project was/is payed via a total system cost, please calculate the hourly rate. Thank you.

As soon as there is enough information provided we will publish the data with neat statistics, graphics and analysis in the blog section under the following URL Blog - Here you will find the results page in some days/weeks
[develissimo.com] - so hopefully a lot of django and web-developers out there will be able to advance in prices.
Such information has helped developers in the past to know what they are worth - those statistics have to get updated from time to time and definitely will help our professional guild in the future as well.

Thank you for participating!

Kind regards,
Raphael

[Raphael Reumayr]

hello djangos,

we have extended the django project information list to report by:

+ $ Working Hours per Day: xx hours (payed project working hours per day)
+ $ Project Total Cost: xxxxx USD (project total cost)

Contribution Link: http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

thanks for sharing your project data - this should boost developers income worldwide. Know what you are worth!

Regards,
Raphael

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[kenneth gonsalves]

On Fri, 2012-04-27 at 08:47 +0200, Raphael Reumayr wrote:
> thanks for sharing your project data - this should boost developers
> income worldwide. Know what you are worth!

In my country we do not charge by the hour - we try to guess how much
the client is willing to pay, and quote a sum higher than that. Then we
bargain - how would you factor this into your survey?
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves

[Raphael Reumayr]

hello Kenneth,

your way is a common practice - so do a lot of others even in Europe.
But please extract the hourly rate in USD depending on project sum and spent hours.
So you will be able to calculate the hourly rate.

Link:
http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

Thank you very much for participating
Raphael

[Raphael]

Dear djangos,

if you want to hand-in your data anonymously - just send us an email to django[at]develissimo.com
we really need more data to achieve some meaningful results.

http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

Cheers,
Raphael

[Kurtis Mullins]

Raphael,

According to another topic -- some developers are being paid roughly $20/hour. It's under a post by Cal Lemmings where he is trying to hire some entry level developer(s). You might be able to use that information as well. I just thought I'd let you know.

[Raphael]

Hello Kurtis,

thank you for letting is know about C. Lemmings post, we are going to use all the information we are able to grab.
Got project data via email - but anyway till now its far not enough.

http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

Kind regards,
Raphael

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Hi,

Just my two cents worth on this (albeit slightly off topic) - it's not all about technical ability or the industry you are working in.

Most clients are willing to pay that extra premium for contractors who are able to manage expectations and go above and beyond.

I've seen many great developers with amazing skills go unnoticed, primarily because they don't know how to handle clients, clear and concise communication plays a huge part in pricing.

The other problem is that the market is flooded with charlatans, who are driving the prices up and make it even more diluted for the rest of us.

You also have to remember that many people don't factor in project management and sales/phone calls into the hourly rate - they simply absorb the costs - which further drives it down.

Cut a long story short though, I personally think that around £1700/month after tax is the 'sweet spot' for any developer (assuming you're not in the city). Anything beyond that is a bonus :)

Cal

[Daniel Sokolowski]

Did the math here and that works out to about $2700/month. I would say that would be the bare minimum considering my NOT lavish life style - family, house, car etc. Furthermore these 'charlatans' driving the price up is a GREAT thing because talent and skill is not cheap  - these people know what they are worth and charge accordingly - sure some are better sales people then programmers.

Time and time again I am reminded that anyone can call themselves a web designer - but only a few can do what we can - that I am a web engineer.

Django strengths lies in customization and ability to deliver exactly when the client wants while saving us some a small amount of time on the basics, it's easy to put up a pretty $15 dollar template based static site - damn I had clients thinking they were good web designer and just wanted hosting - but not everyone can deliver exactly what is required, that does not use a purchased rigid piece of code out there, or code something innovative from scratch to solve a need.

I'll repeat not everyone can do what we can do so charge accordingly, be proud, confident and call your self a web engineer. If you talk big, appear big, deliver big you will attract those big projects - of course if people Google you or your business you better be on first page to justify that.

The company I work for as an employee charges $65/hour - after all expenses, down time, employee wages, not billable tasks the profit margins are not that great I recon - I would guess target being business making $20 an hour I doubt that happens often though.

Final food for thought - a plumber service here starts at $60-100 / hour.

-- 
Daniel Sokolowski
Web Engineer
Danols Web Engineering
http://webdesign.danols.com/
Office: 613-817-6833
Fax: 613-817-4553
Toll Free: 1-855-5DANOLS 
Kingston, ON K7L 1H3, Canada

-- 
Daniel Sokolowski
Web Engineer
Danols Web Engineering
http://webdesign.danols.com/
Office: 613-817-6833
Fax: 613-817-4553
Toll Free: 1-855-5DANOLS 
Kingston, ON K7L 1H3, Canada


Notice of Confidentiality:
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review re-transmission dissemination or other use of or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error please contact the sender immediately by return electronic transmission and then immediately delete this transmission including all attachments without copying distributing or disclosing same.

[Marcin Tustin]

This. Too many creative professionals sell themselves short, and so drive down the going rate for all of us.

Marcin Tustin
Tel: 07773 787 105

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Daniel Sokolowski <elg...@danols.com> wrote:

Did the math here and that works out to about $2700/month. I would say that would be the bare minimum considering my NOT lavish life style - family, house, car etc.

It completely depends on the cost of living in your country/area/circumstances. 

Perhaps sweet spot was the wrong choice of words, as I meant for it to mean "typical minimum" take home salary every month.

 

Furthermore these 'charlatans' driving the price up is a GREAT thing because talent and skill is not cheap  - these people know what they are worth and charge accordingly - sure some are better sales people then programmers.

 

Time and time again I am reminded that anyone can call themselves a web designer - but only a few can do what we can - that I am a web engineer.

Django strengths lies in customization and ability to deliver exactly when the client wants while saving us some a small amount of time on the basics, it's easy to put up a pretty $15 dollar template based static site - damn I had clients thinking they were good web designer and just wanted hosting - but not everyone can deliver exactly what is required, that does not use a purchased rigid piece of code out there, or code something innovative from scratch to solve a need.

I'll repeat not everyone can do what we can do so charge accordingly, be proud, confident and call your self a web engineer. If you talk big, appear big, deliver big you will attract those big projects - of course if people Google you or your business you better be on first page to justify that.

The company I work for as an employee charges $65/hour - after all expenses, down time, employee wages, not billable tasks the profit margins are not that great I recon - I would guess target being business making $20 an hour I doubt that happens often though.

Final food for thought - a plumber service here starts at $60-100 / hour.

A plumber is mostly manual labor which will take a toll on the body over the years. 

I've seen quite a few people making these comparisons to manual labor jobs and, in my opinion, they are completely irrelevant.

A plumber also has travel costs, fuel, cost in lost time travelling, covering free quotations etc.

[Raphael]

I agree very much with Daniel.
And Cal is right £1700/month (which is approximately ~2100EUR and ~2750USD) really is a good starting goal for a (web) developer (AFTER tax!!!).
The problem is a lot of us (developers) - we are very poor business economics. And why? Well this is simple:
we spend our day-time and night-time MO-FR and weekend SA-SU (even holiday) with IT-subjects,
new programming techniques, operating systems, new high tech trends etc...
Don't get me wrong, this is really good. There is only missing one single point - we should investigate a minimum of our time in business economics and stop underselling ourselves.

This should be at least a 4hours talk on every single Tech-University or Engineering-School before the final exams. A lot of highly qualified engineers graduate from Tech-Schools and Universities worldwide with no idea
how much the hourly rate is in their business sector. And this is what really brings wages down. I don't want to be them experts, just to know a minimum would be sufficient. I remember myself, its not far back in time, I had no idea...

Thanks for participating
http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

Raphael

[Daniel Sokolowski]

>>A plumber is mostly manual labour which will take a toll on the body over the years.

>>I've seen quite a few people making these comparisons to manual labour jobs and, in my opinion, they are completely irrelevant.

>>A plumber also has travel costs, fuel, cost in lost time travelling, covering free quotations etc.

 

They are absolutely relevant, an expert spends time and money to improve his or her skills – continually -- be it a plumber or a programmer it's no difference if it’s manual or mental labour. I don’t know if you are attempting to prove a point against good rates for django developers or simply stating your opinion; I will assume the latter.

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-- 
Daniel Sokolowski
Web Engineer
Danols Web Engineering
http://webdesign.danols.com/
Office: 613-817-6833
Fax: 613-817-4553
Toll Free: 1-855-5DANOLS 
Kingston, ON K7L 1H3, Canada


Notice of Confidentiality:
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[Kurtis Mullins]

Another variable in the equation is that independent developers do not have a guaranteed job every day. You have to compensate for that difference. So, for example, if I were to take on a project that might last two weeks -- I need to make up that other two weeks unless I have another job waiting on me. On the other hand, if someone offers me a 6-month contract -- then I'm happy taking a bit less because I know the money will be coming in for the duration. Regardless, I know what I need to make each month to survive and try to charge accordingly. I imagine others might follow the same approach.

As for the $2800/month being a great starting wage for a web developer -- I sure hope they don't have kids :)

[Raphael]

I already like the discussion and I think over time we really will be able to grab some useful data.
@ Kurtis

"As for the $2800/month being a great starting wage for a web developer -- I sure hope they don't have kids :)"

Well Kurtis,
now we are at the region specific details.

2800$/month in the US is as you say, if you have kids not the best starting point.
2800$/month in Europe/Austria, which is about 2100€/mo is not that bad even with kids, because AFTER tax means, that
you do not have to pay further bills on things such as health insurance coverage,... because this is already included in the taxes by duty.
Not so in the USA - as far as i know, the social insurance in the US is keeping a big part of the decision what to pay and how much in private hands, with the known
advantages and disadvantages of that kind of system.

So 2800$/month (after tax) in Europe/Austria is a good start for a web-engineer.
while 2800$/month (after tax) in the US is not a great deal, because people in the US have to pay health insurance, school fees etc... extra,
those things are already included in taxes in most European countries and compared to the US kind of "free".

We give our best to respect all those little region specific differences in the end summary of the "hourly rates - report".

http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

Kind regards,
Raphael

[Mike Dewhirst]

I don't know what the entry level contracting rate is in Australia but I
would guess AUD$4,000 per month pre-tax. Competent developers can
usually get $6k to $8k per month or more if they do short term contracting.

That is expensive and hurts startups unless sweat-equity is involved.

Mike

>> <mailto:devel...@develissimo.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear djangos,
>>
>> if you want to hand-in your data anonymously - just send us

>> an email to django[at]develissimo.com <http://develissimo.com>

>> we really need more data to achieve some meaningful results.
>>
>> http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Raphael
>>
>>
>>
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[Benedict Verheyen]

On 3/05/2012 17:38, Raphael wrote:
> I agree very much with Daniel.
> And Cal is right �1700/month (which is approximately ~2100EUR and ~2750USD) really is a good starting goal for a (web) developer (AFTER tax!!!).
> The problem is a lot of us (developers) - we are very poor business economics. And why? Well this is simple:
> we spend our day-time and night-time MO-FR and weekend SA-SU (even holiday) with IT-subjects,
> new programming techniques, operating systems, new high tech trends etc...
> Don't get me wrong, this is really good. There is only missing one single point - we should investigate a minimum of our time in business
> economics and stop underselling ourselves.
>
> This should be at least a 4hours talk on every single Tech-University or Engineering-School before the final exams. A lot of highly
> qualified engineers graduate from Tech-Schools and Universities worldwide with no idea
> how much the hourly rate is in their business sector. And this is what really brings wages down. I don't want to be them experts, just to

> know a minimum would be sufficient. I remember myself, its not far back in time, I had no idea... ;-)

>
> Thanks for participating
> http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/
>
> Raphael

Another problem is that a lot of people think they "know all about computers" and as a result,
greatly undervalue the skills needed to do IT the right way.
Yes, it's possible to quickly throw some code together, but what if you want to add a feature
or solve a bug on that kind of code? Good luck, this is when one really starts to loose time
and realize that it's better to work following certain standards.
Bosses usually don't get that too. Documentation? Nah, who needs it. And so on.

They don't understand that in a lot of IT jobs, you have to read a lot, learn new things every day.
We can never go to our jobs and not face a new problem almost every day.
This is what people don't see. These are the hidden costs and what makes our job difficult.
And yes, I believe customers should be paying a certain percentage for this knowledge in the form
of a higher, more realistic hour rate. The knowledge benefits their projects.

I once told a customer that complained about an already very low rate, if he would paint my house at that rate.
You can guess the answer. How come people who do manual labor, can ask for certain rates, but
ICT staff can't ? How many times to they have to study new techniques or whatever?
Sure, they do manual labor which takes a toll, but sitting in a chair all day
also takes it's toll (neck and back) and we need to solve problems every day, and learn new technology
very often.

Can't post an hourly rate I used, as I only programmed and did IT in freelance after hours.
I'm currently employed as ICT manager which luckily also involves some programming (Django and wxPython amongst others).
However, I'm thinking about what might be possible going freelance again. Unfortunately Python
and Django aren't widespread YET :) in Belgium.

My 2 cents

Regards,
Benedict

--
Benedict Verheyen Debian, Python and Django user
GnuPG Public Key 0x712CBB8D Headcoach West-Flanders Tribes

[Raphael]

But don't forget => do not do your job too professional, keep in mind there should be some work left in the future
Just kidding...

I think another source of low developer-income (and there are multiples reasons) lies a bit in another way. Non IT people often do not know - that its quite a lot of work and time to create something software related.
Such people, sometimes Non-Tech business-managers, do know white-hat/black-hat hackers from "Bruce Willis movies" only, where they create something stunning or hack the whole planet withing minutes.
While this is awesome to watch in a movie, this misbelief really turns down payed project hours worldwide.
There even exist IT-guys (non programmers) who are far not able to estimate the developing time of software-solutions and calculate far not enough time for their wishes.

I am not afraid of unprofessionals or newbie programmers - if the hours to fix the problem are payed accordingly.
Much more I go with Marcin and extend his saying: "TOO MANY creative professionals (artists, programmers, developers, SW- architects,...) sell themselves short, and so drive down the going rate for all of us."

Its a fact that the hourly rates on IT services must rise - compared to education and expenditure of time. Lets fight for it.

http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/
Thanks for participating

Raphael

[Andy McKay]

> A plumber is mostly manual labor which will take a toll on the body over the
> years.

Programming too takes its toll on the body over time (make sure you
have a nice ergonomic setup). The relentless march of technology means
that the length of a programmers career is shorter than many jobs,
including plumbing.

> A plumber also has travel costs, fuel, cost in lost time travelling,
> covering free quotations etc.

Consultants have travel costs, fuel and lost time in travelling too.
Unless you never meet clients. Consultants have to provide free
quotations too. There are the same costs for any independent business
person.

> I've seen quite a few people making these comparisons to manual labor jobs
> and, in my opinion, they are completely irrelevant.

There are fixed and variable costs in any profession. I'm not sure of
the point of any comparison.

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Good point - I'd still rather be a programming than a plumber though!

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Programmer*

[Caio Oliveira]

Nice work! Wouldn't be nice to do an automatic statistic generation? Like a website with a form, that anyone could just input the data and it'd automatically update the statistics.

[Raphael]

Hello Caio,

yes this could be nice, but in the end the statistics are in the need of a more powerful interpretion than simple math could do it.

Contribution-Link: http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

regards,
Raphael

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[Caio Oliveira]

I know that, thats why it would be an interesting project involving data analysis. And I'm sure that, if you manage to do it as an open source, it'd have a lot of interested people from data mining fields ready to join the project, as many of them use Python and it's libraries.

2012/5/6 Raphael <devel...@develissimo.com>

[Raphael]

In German language there is a platform called GULP http://www.gulp.de/ which is doing such data analysis on freelance projects.
i am not aware of any similar English one, but i am pretty sure they exist.

If not, than an open source version could be an interesting project.

[Daniel Sokolowski]

That’ is a great idea!

 

Dear djangosite Team

 

Would you please consider gathering basic costs/hours spent during submission that could be used to generate world wide statics? Please see below or see https://groups.google.com/d/msg/django-users/-/mA8tMUzy8FUJ for full discussion.

 

Thank you.

 

From: Caio Oliveira

Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 9:30 AM

To: django...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Django - Worldwide Developer Rates - Hourly Income - location and project duration specific

 

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[Derek]

I may have missed some key apect of this discussion, but isn't djangosite a tool fo show-casing websites; not a financial-statistics-gathering website?  Is it not better to have one dedicated to this purpose; or perhaps extend http://www.djangojobs.org/ as this as least deals with employment-related issues?

[Raphael]

In the mean while it would be useful if you could provide more data
The more project data we get, the more significant the end result will be.
This should be a task - no more than five minutes to you guys.

so thanks to everyone who is contributing: http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

Kind regards,
Raphael

[George Silva]

This is interesting but I think the media for the poll is a little off.

Maybe we could use Google tools to collect data? Or SurveyMonkey?

--
George R. C. Silva

Desenvolvimento em GIS
http://geoprocessamento.net
http://blog.geoprocessamento.net

[Raphael]

Now after some days, I have the feeling that we are not able to collect enough data to really get useful stats.
Google tools or ServeyMonkey ok why not.

[Raphael]

LAST CALL 2 contribution.

Hello djangos - once again:

one last call to contribute. After this message almost enough people should have been notified about our try to collect worldwide django development project
data to being able to publish useful statistics.

We even are going to create statistics with the rare data we already have collected + Try to get some comparison to other well known development territories
such as Java, Java-Spring, Web-Engineering, Programming, SAP, C#,  Server Administration... (open source and proprietary fields).

Thanks again to those willing to contribute.
We already got some good feedback - and there are people out there looking positively into the future with the confidence that such statistics and
comparisons will boost the average income/hourly rates.

Contribution link: http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

Cheers,
Raphael