Web development newbie

[Riefers]

I've spent the 10+ years developing serverside apps in java. I've
never done any web page developement. Someone recommended Django. Any
suggestions on where to start? Is Django too advanced for me if I've
never done web side developement?

[Paul Schewietzek]

Some python knowledge is helpful, if not required.

Since you should know general programming architectures from java, I recommend "Dive into Python" to learn python.

http://diveintopython.org/

2011/7/23 Riefers <sharief....@gmail.com>

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[jocke khazad]

HI,

To have some knowlege of python is of course helpful but I think you can learn to write django applications quite fast starting with Djangos own tutorial since you have programming knowlege form another language.

https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/intro/tutorial01/

Good luck!

[Furqan Rauf]

One thing for sure you need to know some HTML + CSS as well I remember when I started Django I had my application but the UI sucked bad so put the combo on ur check list :D

-Furqan Rauf

Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first. -Prophet Muhammad

http://www.amway.com/furqanrauf

[Victor Manuel Quiñones Victor]

Hi guys

I'm agree with those guys, no further python knowledge it is required to start with django, but maybe in the future will be necesary to increase your django skills.

good luck and enjoy django.

Quiñones Victor Manuel
Tel: +54 03722 684102
Resistencia - 3500
Argentina

[bruno desthuilliers]

I don't understand what you mean by "serverside apps" here - I mean,
Django IS for serverside applications, not client side (which would
require javascript).

But anyway: coming from Java, you'd better start with learning Python
itself (at least the tutorial), else you may be fooled by some use of
class attributes in Django (specially in models and forms). Also,
doing web developpement require at least a basic knowledge of the HTTP
protocol, and possibly HTML and CSS.

[Javier Guerra Giraldez]

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:03 PM, bruno desthuilliers
<bruno.des...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't understand what you mean by "serverside apps" here - I mean,
> Django IS for serverside applications, not client side (which would
> require javascript).

There are other kinds of servers and clients besides web, you know.

Also, in deep-tiered servers (where Java is king) involve lots of
server work that isn't directly related to web pages, even if it
ultimately could result in some web activity.

--
Javier

[Doug the Webmaster]

I went from JAVA to python and am now learning django.
Going from JAVA to python is not a big deal.
Most of the concepts are the same, the biggest difference
being that JAVA is strongly typed and python is weakly typed.
This just means a python object can be any type, it doesn't have to
be declared as an object of a certain class, it just has to be able to
do the stuff ( have the same interface ) that the code requires it to
at run time. Its more flexible but can lead to mistakes in the code.
Python also has some interesting structure below the class level like
sequences that makes it consistent and efficient. "Dive into Python"
is a good way to learn this.
Python is a pleasure to code in . . . don't be afraid :-)
Django is mostly a very well designed framework,
though it does require some understanding of how web development works,
though mostly basic stuff. The only problem is that I think the django
tutorial
and some other resources sort of assume that you are moving from some other
more traditional web development language like PHP/MySQL and moving up
the ladder.
You just have to know the basic ideas of web development like the HTTP
protocol,
nothing too complicated, but I'm not sure where you could find a short intro
that would get you up to speed without wasting lots of time.
There are some django video tutorials I found helpful that bring you through
making a site, and you may be able to infer all you need to know by
seeing some examples
they are at:
http://showmedo.com/videotutorials/django
I tried JAVA web development before Django
I find Django much more intuitive easier to code in
Both JAVA and Django are for perfectionists,
only Django is for perfectionists with time deadlines :-)
good luck with the transition
Doug

[Dmitry Pisklov]

Not exactly true. Both java and Python are strongly typed. However, Java has static typing, and python has dynamic duck-typing system. That means, type of your object is detected in run-time, but it cannot be changed, contrary to weakly typed languages like PHP, where you can treat string as number and number as boolean.

E.g., you cannot do the following allowed in weakly-typed languages:

$a = "" + 6;

In python, you just cannot add string to number.

And as to the topic, I'm sure that at least basic python knowledge is required to use django for something more then just a small home page with 2 static HTMLs.

PS I am a Java developer, and more then year ago started looking into python, wrote few small components for work and now trying to leverage django for my web-project. I doubt I could do something so fast if I haven't known python at all.

[bobhaugen]

On Jul 23, 8:19 am, Riefers <sharief.chand...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've spent the 10+ years developing serverside apps in java. I've
> never done any web page developement. Someone recommended Django. Any
> suggestions on where to start?

I learned Python and Django at the same time. A lot of people have
changed their recommendations for learning Python from "Dive into..."
to
http://learnpythonthehardway.org/

One of the problems I had was learning to code "pythonically", that
is, using Python rather than Java idioms. This helped me:
http://python.net/~goodger/projects/pycon/2007/idiomatic/handout.html

> Is Django too advanced for me if I've
> never done web side developement?

Django will probably help you learn web development.

Good luck and have fun.

[fred....@sunrise.com]

After many years of developing desktop applications in Python, I had to learn Java and all the web development concepts required in a Java/Tomcat world.  After years of Java web development my company has finally come to recognize that ANY development in Python is significantly easier than almost any development in Java.  Everything everyone before has said is on target.  Spend some time learning Python it will make Django easier to pickup.  Then just do it.  You only learn this stuff by making mistakes and figuring them out -- perhaps with a little help from the guru's on the web.

I tend to use Adobe's flex for client side work, perhaps because my background is large desktop apps and perhaps because I'm weak in HTML, CSS and JavaScript.  It's easy to have Flex "consume" XML responses and link those directly to forms and datagrids.  Of course that's yet another thing to learn and a little harder to debug.

You will find the django/python learning curve easier than java/tomcat and IMHO the user groups more responsive. 

Be sure to install Eclipse with the PyDev plugin (or other python/django IDE's if you want) and also to browse thru the module library so you have a feel for how many problems have already been solved by others and are there for your use.  FYI there a modules to read/write XML, CSV, zip and Excel files.  Many necessary modules are not in the standard distribution, but readily available: google is your friend.

The only area where I've really struggled is in building a SOAP api to conform to some vendor requirement.  It's hard to figure out which python soap module is the right one (i.e. maintained and documented) while Java seems to have better tools.  But that could just be an indication of a gap in my knowledge, not in python.

[Tim Sawyer]

On 24/07/11 16:22, fred....@sunrise.com wrote:
> The only area where I've really struggled is in building a SOAP api to
> conform to some vendor requirement. It's hard to figure out which python
> soap module is the right one (i.e. maintained and documented) while Java
> seems to have better tools. But that could just be an indication of a
> gap in my knowledge, not in python.

I had that problem too, gave up, and just used raw XML over HTTP. It
worked for what I needed.

http://drumcoder.co.uk/blog/2009/nov/23/running-soap-webservice-without-library/

I'm very happy with Django for personal projects, but work are currently
on the lookout for a new Java web framework (mainly for ease of
deployment reasons - our release team like WAR files). Anyone got any
suggestions for Java frameworks as simple as Django? Django/Jython
doesn't appear to be an option.

Tim.

[kenneth gonsalves]

On Sun, 2011-07-24 at 04:25 -0700, Dmitry Pisklov wrote:
> PS I am a Java developer, and more then year ago started looking into
> python, wrote few small components for work and now trying to leverage
> django for my web-project. I doubt I could do something so fast if I
> haven't known python at all.

could you add a few lines here:

https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/UsingTheMailingList#Java

[bruno desthuilliers]

On Jul 24, 12:40 am, Javier Guerra Giraldez <jav...@guerrag.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:03 PM, bruno desthuilliers
>

> <bruno.desthuilli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't understand what you mean by "serverside apps" here - I mean,
> > Django IS for serverside applications, not client side (which would
> > require javascript).
>
> There are other kinds of servers and clients besides web, you know.

I do. What I meant is that Django (and most of web development) is
about serverside stuff too.