[Django] #36771: Django needs a _massive_ refactor

[Django]

#36771: Django needs a _massive_ refactor
--------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Reporter: cammil | Type: Cleanup/optimization
Status: new | Component: Uncategorized
Version: 6.0 | Severity: Normal
Keywords: refactor | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Needs tests: 0 | Patch needs improvement: 0
Easy pickings: 0 | UI/UX: 0
--------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Django is great. It seems to have nearly everything I want from a web
framework. However, I think it needs a ''massive'' upgrade

It seems bloated to me, and very difficult to use. FastApi is great and
for good reason. It's new, clean, fast, easier to use, has better
documentation, suits many of the new use cases (AI?) better than Django.
However, it seems to me that Django can and should compete. The issue is
that the code base is complex, and the many aspects of Django cannot
easily be decoupled. Can you run Django without an ORM? I don't think so.
I have been using Django for maybe 15 years, and I still am confused by
how the whole framework works.

The admin configuration is very difficult beyond simple modifications that
fit. The templating system code is really hard to understand. I suspect
there are many other structural issues I am not aware of.

The teams I have worked with are all itching to get off Django and move to
FastApi, and the only reason they have not is that it would be a big
effort to do so.

Given the many features and benefits of Django, I think it would be a
shame to see all this all lost to a cleaner and faster framework. By they
way, I am not at all suggesting that "we" need to out-do FastApi. I am
suggesting that we can and must drastically improve Django for the benefit
of all that use it, and ideally avoid them having to spend considerable
effort replatforming to a different framework.

Assuming anyone agrees that 1) this is actually a problem we would like to
solve and 2) that a fundamental clean up of the code base is a good idea,
then, I think it would be great to get together and discuss what we would
want from a big refactor.
--
Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/36771>
Django <https://code.djangoproject.com/>
The Web framework for perfectionists with deadlines.

[Django]

#36771: Django needs a _massive_ refactor

-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Reporter: cammil | Owner: (none)
Type: | Status: closed
Cleanup/optimization |
Component: Uncategorized | Version: 6.0
Severity: Normal | Resolution: invalid

Keywords: refactor | Triage Stage:
| Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Needs tests: 0 | Patch needs improvement: 0
Easy pickings: 0 | UI/UX: 0

-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Changes (by Jake Howard):

* resolution: => invalid
* status: new => closed

Comment:

As you can imagine, a ticket like this is incredibly hard (basically
impossible) to action. If you have any concrete suggestions other than
rewrite all of Django from scratch, the new-features repo
https://github.com/django/new-features is the best way to go.

A project the size and scale of Django needs to move slowly so it doesn't
harm its users. But as can be seen by the new features in each release, it
_is_ improving, adapting, changing and "upgrading" - hopefully for the
better.
--
Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/36771#comment:1>

[Django]

#36771: Django needs a _massive_ refactor
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Reporter: cammil | Owner: (none)
Type: | Status: closed
Cleanup/optimization |
Component: Uncategorized | Version: 6.0
Severity: Normal | Resolution: invalid
Keywords: refactor | Triage Stage:
| Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Needs tests: 0 | Patch needs improvement: 0
Easy pickings: 0 | UI/UX: 0
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Comment (by cammil):

Ok. Where would one start a discussion like this then?

I would argue that this is not impossible to action. It _is_ hard, but
unless we take concerns like this seriously, then Django, though improving
slowly will gradually fail to meet the needs of its users.
--
Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/36771#comment:2>

[Django]

#36771: Django needs a _massive_ refactor
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Reporter: cammil | Owner: (none)
Type: | Status: closed
Cleanup/optimization |
Component: Uncategorized | Version: 6.0
Severity: Normal | Resolution: invalid
Keywords: refactor | Triage Stage:
| Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Needs tests: 0 | Patch needs improvement: 0
Easy pickings: 0 | UI/UX: 0
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Comment (by Jake Howard):

Where would one start a discussion like this then?

What discussion are you trying to have? You can't just "upgrade
everything". If there's an area or feature you think could be improved,
suggest it. There are lots of open issues in the new-features repo from
people with similar concerns to you, but with a narrower scope and a more
concrete plan. That's what's needed.

Alternatively, if there are already open discussions there you have
opinions on, contribute to the existing discussions there.
--
Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/36771#comment:3>

[Django]

#36771: Django needs a _massive_ refactor
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Reporter: cammil | Owner: (none)
Type: | Status: closed
Cleanup/optimization |
Component: Uncategorized | Version: 6.0
Severity: Normal | Resolution: invalid
Keywords: refactor | Triage Stage:
| Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Needs tests: 0 | Patch needs improvement: 0
Easy pickings: 0 | UI/UX: 0
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Comment (by cammil):

Of course I am not suggesting that we "just 'upgrade everything' ". What I
am asking is, if there is a better way to drive significant change -
better than a somewhat transactional ticketing approach, which has _not_
worked. My observation is not a novel one, and perhaps the cause of the
bloat is caused by a pure ticketing approach, or a lack of contributors,
or something else. Perhaps it is inevitable that a project of this size
and scope just simply had to be restarted in another form - FastApi, or
another. So, perhaps we are flogging a dead horse.

However, you have made a suggestion, and I have not tried it. So, let me
see if I can be more concrete with ask, or try to find those discussions
happening already in other tickets.
--
Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/36771#comment:4>