Can we move the activity on this list to the Forum now?

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Carlton Gibson

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Nov 28, 2022, 8:38:06 AM11/28/22
to Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)
Hi all. 

Given the issues with Tom's access to the mailing list here, and the fact that the Forum has been active for a few years now, and is a great success, I'd like to revisit whether we can move on-mass (all few of us :) over there? 

We'd enjoy the benefits of a much nicer system. We'd not have issues such as the current, and we'd be one less item in the pocket of a mega-corp. (You can rank those as you will :) 

Initially when this can up (a long time ago) Andrew and Tom discussed whether we could import the history here into the forum. I think that's unnecessary. We can still access the history here (until such a day as Google takes it away) at worst -- but, rather, if we can get an archive we could import it into read-only Datasette instance[0] — and that would likely be good enough. 

Can we move now? 

Thanks. 

Kind Regards,

Carlton


[0]: I'd happily do this. 

Roger Gammans

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Nov 28, 2022, 8:59:24 AM11/28/22
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Hi

I can't speak for others, but I personally STRONGLY value the fact that this discussion happens in my inbox, not on yet another website. 

But perhaps the forum still supports this reading mode?
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Carlton Gibson

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Nov 28, 2022, 9:06:11 AM11/28/22
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Hey Roger, 

Indeed it does. You can set up Email Mode (that may not be the actual name) and it’ll work just like a mailing list. 

You can also subscribe to just a particular category, so the Internals one would map to the discussion on this list. 



On Monday, 28 November 2022, Roger Gammans <rgam...@gammascience.co.uk> wrote:
Hi

I can't speak for others, but I personally STRONGLY value the fact that this discussion happens in my inbox, not on yet another website. 

But perhaps the forum still supports this reading mode?

On Mon, 2022-11-28 at 05:38 -0800, Carlton Gibson wrote:
Hi all. 

Given the issues with Tom's access to the mailing list here, and the fact that the Forum has been active for a few years now, and is a great success, I'd like to revisit whether we can move on-mass (all few of us :) over there? 

We'd enjoy the benefits of a much nicer system. We'd not have issues such as the current, and we'd be one less item in the pocket of a mega-corp. (You can rank those as you will :) 

Initially when this can up (a long time ago) Andrew and Tom discussed whether we could import the history here into the forum. I think that's unnecessary. We can still access the history here (until such a day as Google takes it away) at worst -- but, rather, if we can get an archive we could import it into read-only Datasette instance[0] — and that would likely be good enough. 

Can we move now? 

Thanks. 

Kind Regards,

Carlton


[0]: I'd happily do this. 

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Carsten Fuchs

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Nov 28, 2022, 10:03:07 AM11/28/22
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Hello,

unfortunately, the emails sent by the forum have long prefixes in the subject lines, e.g.

[Django Forum] [Django Internals/ORM] Multiple Database Switching

That makes the messages easy to filter by mail client software, but comes at the cost of much visual clutter that is hard to parse, e. g. when the mail client presents messages hierarchically in a thread-based view.

Best regards,
Carsten



Am 28.11.22 um 15:05 schrieb Carlton Gibson:

Tobias McNulty

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Nov 28, 2022, 10:22:53 AM11/28/22
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As someone who only just joined the forum -- I'm +1:
  • The forum has seen great adoption from what I can tell (nearly half the number of posts as django-developers during the same time period, not bad given the mailing list's head start in subscribers).
  • It seems beneficial to house future conversations in a single place, e.g., so members don't need to subscribe to both the mailing list and forum to get the full picture of current active development, set up two different sets of mail filters to tag things appropriately, etc...
Would the plan be to switch django-users as well? I think similar arguments could be made for consolidating those...

(On the other hand, I see little value in switching django-announce and django-updates, but I'm not necessarily opposed to it either, especially if there's a way to import the subscribers to those lists...)

Cheers,

Tobias McNulty
Chief Executive Officer

tob...@caktusgroup.com
www.caktusgroup.com



On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:05 AM Carlton Gibson <carlton...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Roger, 

Indeed it does. You can set up Email Mode (that may not be the actual name) and it’ll work just like a mailing list. 

You can also subscribe to just a particular category, so the Internals one would map to the discussion on this list. 



On Monday, 28 November 2022, Roger Gammans <rgam...@gammascience.co.uk> wrote:
Hi

I can't speak for others, but I personally STRONGLY value the fact that this discussion happens in my inbox, not on yet another website. 

But perhaps the forum still supports this reading mode?

On Mon, 2022-11-28 at 05:38 -0800, Carlton Gibson wrote:
Hi all. 

Given the issues with Tom's access to the mailing list here, and the fact that the Forum has been active for a few years now, and is a great success, I'd like to revisit whether we can move on-mass (all few of us :) over there? 

We'd enjoy the benefits of a much nicer system. We'd not have issues such as the current, and we'd be one less item in the pocket of a mega-corp. (You can rank those as you will :) 

Initially when this can up (a long time ago) Andrew and Tom discussed whether we could import the history here into the forum. I think that's unnecessary. We can still access the history here (until such a day as Google takes it away) at worst -- but, rather, if we can get an archive we could import it into read-only Datasette instance[0] — and that would likely be good enough. 

Can we move now? 

Thanks. 

Kind Regards,

Carlton


[0]: I'd happily do this. 

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Adam Johnson

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Nov 28, 2022, 11:54:12 PM11/28/22
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Big +1 from me, I love the forum. It’s a lot more discoverable and powerful.

Kye Russell

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Nov 29, 2022, 12:01:17 AM11/29/22
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IMO django-announce and django-updates serve a very different purpose and I would be against moving them if it were suggested.

I am incredibly strongly in favour of moving django-developers and django-users to the forums. IMO being able to more easily trap people misusing this list as a tech support channel is itself reason enough to move. Beyond that, I’d argue that the plentiful UX issues with Google Groups, and mailing lists in general, certainly don’t do the community any favours in terms of getting more people on board. 

Kye

Andrew Godwin

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Dec 5, 2022, 6:16:04 PM12/5/22
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I did some investigation of moving django-users and django-developers to the Forum right after DjangoCon; I wanted to see if we could import all the old posts too, which we probably could, but I'm not entirely sure of the utility of that.

I will say that the forum is a lot easier to moderate - the ability to moderate after a post has gone out, rather than gating all posts behind approval if they're untrusted, is a big step in itself, not to mention the ability to remove sensitive or offensive content once it's posted.

Andrew

Kye Russell

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Jan 18, 2023, 7:04:26 PM (12 days ago) Jan 18
to Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)
Hi all,

I find that the signal-to-noise ratio on this mailing list is (by my determination) quite bad around this time of year.

Is a move to the forum still on the cards? 

Kye

Carlton Gibson

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Jan 19, 2023, 2:31:28 AM (12 days ago) Jan 19
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I'm trying to begin new conversations there where I can. 

The main issue is that we're still pointing people here from Trac and the Triage Workflow docs — so if there's a rough "Yeah, let's do it" we can adjust practice there. 

I expect there will always be the "How do I start?" posts. The Forum at least has a pinned post for that. ... 

Andrew Godwin

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Jan 19, 2023, 12:15:45 PM (11 days ago) Jan 19
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We should at least update those Trac and Triage Workflow docs to point to both, maybe with the Forum first?

Andrew

Carlton Gibson

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Jan 20, 2023, 2:24:11 AM (11 days ago) Jan 20
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OK, I've updated the Trac wiki page to point to the forum too. (We use this as a wiki-link in responses to guide folk onwards.) 

The docs have a `|django-developers|` shortcut used in quite a few places so that needs a moment more to review and adjust. 
(I'll look at it soon-ish... — if no-one beats me to it :) 

Thanks. 
C

Alex Krupp

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Jan 26, 2023, 8:07:36 AM (5 days ago) Jan 26
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I just submitted a proposal to create a Discourse plugin to improve the accuracy of their inbound email parsing. This would enable two things:
  • Folks who prefer to live in their inbox could continue to do so and contribute by just replying to emails. Discourse currently has reply-by-email, but it often mangles formatting and/or entirely deletes text. Once these issues are fixed, folks who like the current experience would be able to just pretend the forum doesn't exist and continue having the same experience as they currently have with Google Groups.
  • Right now importing the archives from Google Groups into Discourse isn't realistic for the same reasons; some messages will import correctly, but others will be mangled or missing text. This would also be made possible.
If this is something you care about (positively or negatively), here is the exploratory proposal:


Any feedback and/or testing would be much appreciated! Right now Discourse recognizes that this is a problem and is interested in solving it, but getting it prioritized will require folks to A) speak up saying they want it done B) test the underlying API to verify that it actually solves the problem.

Alex



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