Symmetrical piano

[dominique.waller]

Hi everybody,

 

I don't know if you were aware of those two links before. Just in case

 

Pitch TV : Uniform Keyboard System

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rko4p9HaQg

 

The man behind that is Joseph Saltsman, and he has a website http://www.uniformkeyboardsystem.com/

 

Ruby my dear, played on the symmetrical keyboard :

http://www.youtube.com/user/31416erre#p/a/u/0/dGUD58gp6Fk

 

The palyer's first name is Pierre, but I don't know his name.

 

Dominique W.

[William Croft]

Dominique, thanks.

Pierre is actually a member of our diykeyboard Google Group.  And he helped me to do the D key transformation trick on my own Roland keyboard,

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pierre Therrien
Date: Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 6:54 AM
Subject: 6-6 keyboard
To: William Croft

Hello William,

You're right, I don't check my Youtube mail often ;-)... Sorry about the delay in answering your email.  The midi controller I modified was a Roland PC-300. I've attached a photo of the instrument.

I ordered the 'D' and 'black' keys from the local distributor of Roland parts and components. The conversion can be done in just a few minutes; the time it takes to unscrew the case, take out the original keys, and put the new ones in.

The diykeyboard site looks like an interesting project.  I've applied for membership.

Best regards

πerre :-)

[dominique.waller]

Oh, really? Very interesting. Thanks for the info.

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[PJP...@aol.com]

Here's another - how to 6-6

 

http://www.balanced-keyboard.com/

 

It's really about that D key

[Johannes Drinda]

This time I need your help... please be so kind!!

  Albeit my ambitions somewhat differ, maybe you can help me in my endeavor: I am planing to convert my Tyros3 Kbd to a 3-row JANKO layout (which is even reversible) using a fitting Klavarskribo type of wysiwyg notation.
I'm after a programmer, able to correct the freeware (open source) Klavar Script program to fit my a 3-row Janko Kbd layout (see attachment). There are actually only 5 lines and 5 note colors to be corrected. Do you know how to do that or do you know any programmer, who could do that for me? I'm a young pensioner (70) and maybe/ hope I can afford to pay for it.   :)

Half century ago, I used to play the piano accordion and thus, I thought of MIDI-encoding a used 120-button (pentatonic) accordion bass, which allows me to play the Tyros3 like a singer or whistler; i.e. not to bother at all about scales and chord patterns.
Music has been my life, too! I'm a whistler-musician. Audition my Demo:  http://www.live-styler.de/home/images/jjj-DEMO.wma  or  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPEW8KdBxds
Well, that's my situation.  I would truly be delighted if you could help me progressing my "last dream"...  :)

Warm Regards, Joh in St'go de Chile

_____________________________________________________
Show me yours and I'll show you mine...  Here's mine:
http://jdrinda.tripod.com/ and http://www.web-und-print-design.de/drinda

---

[Andrew Wagner]

Hi Johannes-

Do you have a link for the software you want someone to modify?  I can't promise anything; it depends on how trivial the required change is, and how readable the code is.  Did you post to the MNP list too?  Or maybe try asking the author nicely?

Cheers,
Drew

[Andrew Wagner]

Is it this KLAVAR! thing?

http://sourceforge.net/projects/klavar/

[dominique.waller]

Oh, I knew this one. There are practical advises that I plan to experiment on a Prodipe MIDI 49C USB, a Midi controller that I just bought recently for that purpose. Cheers ! Dominique

 

----- Original Message -----

From: PJP...@aol.com

To: diyke...@googlegroups.com

--

[PJP...@aol.com]

I made one using a cheap used casio 61 key - you might need to get extra (replacement keys) - casio was easy and not to expensive to get extra keys from.

 

PaulPb

 

 

[dominique.waller]

I haven’t started yet, so I don’t know if I will need extra D keys or if it will be possible to recycle the existing ones. Willemse http://www.balanced-keyboard.com/ says that on some keyboard it’s not necessary to buy extra keys. Dominique

----- Original Message -----

From: PJP...@aol.com

To: diyke...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 8:07 PM

Subject: Re: [diykeyboard] Re: Symmetrical piano

I made one using a cheap used casio 61 key - you might need to get extra (replacement keys) - casio was easy and not to expensive to get extra keys from.

 

PaulPb

 

 

--

[PJP...@aol.com]

Yeah I agree - The one in the you tube video "ruby my dear" (I think he said he used a kurzweil keyboard) - using a better instrument that you can special order the "keys you need is most likely going to produce a better result. although it will cost more.

 

and it helps to know what music you want to learn - my experience is that the 6-6 wasn't easier then the 7-5 - my main interest was the extra space I could reach - and I discovered the many options one piece of music or exercise can be played - so in a way its easier and in another more difficult......

 

It's the same with any instrument - the differences - here photos of my cheap home made 6-6 MIDI controllers - remember have the right tools are also expensive - (these were made with tools that

I had around the house - you're average tool box) -

 

Have a nice day; PaulPb

[PJP...@aol.com]

Could we see a photo of the modified roland keyboard ? were the extra D and black keys expensive?

 

PaulPb

[dominique.waller]

Hi Paul Pb,

You wrote : > My experience is that the 6-6 wasn't easier than the 7-5 - my main interest was the extra space I could reach and I discovered the many options one piece of music or exercise can be played so in a way it’s easier and in another more difficult...

 

What do you mean by that?

 

    Maybe you remember I’ve once explained in detail, in a conversation with Paul Vandervoort on the MNP forum, why I was disappointed with the Chromatone and why I preferred the two-row keyboard. See attached file.

 

    I can see that you have both a Janko and a two row keyboard. I suppose you have some experience with both. Could you comment the difference from your point of view? And were you previously trained on piano? Dominique

----- Origi

nal Message -----

From: PJP...@aol.com

To: diyke...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 2:55 PM

Subject: Re: [diykeyboard] Re: Symmetrical piano

--

[PJP...@aol.com]

In that photo are the 3 of the 4 keyboards I built -

 

I don't have much experience with the 2 row standard piano key 6-6 -

 

I own a 4 row mini upright Piano built and purchased from Paul Vandervoort.

 

Previously I studied drums and percussion for about 6 years then studied classical piano and jazz etc. - and I read and can transcribe in traditional notation......(so far 30 + year's experience)

 

there are lots of differences in the 7-5 and the 6-6 - here is one example - 1st I can only ever play on 2 rows on the 7-5 (or the 2 row 6-6) Scales chords songs whatever - (in a way that limitation makes extra possibilities vanish.)

 

On the 4 row 6-6 I like to play my scales (major/minor modes) on 2 rows - Major Blues scales are more comfortable and easier on 3 rows - chromatic runs/ornaments on 4 rows 3 or 2 - lots of possibilities - see where I'm coming from?

 

stringed instruments with more then 2 strings have similar possibilities..........Its all about what you feel more comfortable playing.

 

If you are a new music student starting out on 2 rows might be easier until you get to know where the notes are - after that having 4 or 5 more rows of notes (in the vertical direction) could open up more new and exciting musical possibilities!!

 

Regards; PaulPb

[William Croft]

On Friday, September 23, 2011 7:41:21 PM UTC-7, PaulPb wrote:

Could we see a photo of the modified roland keyboard ? were the extra D and black keys expensive?

PaulPb

PaulPb, hi.  While the Roland PC-300 conversion that Pierre and I did was easy to do, I'm not sure it's the best model to recommend for others to use as their base for a uniform keyboard makeover.  For a number of reasons:

• The PC-300 has long been out of production, so you'll have to find a used one (e.g. eBay).
• I ordered spare keys from the California Roland Service Center, but they didnt have enough to fill my order.  In fact the keys had to be molded fresh (off the presses) in Japan, and this took several months delay.
• PC-300 is a very minimalist controller, e.g. not even an LCD readout for settings.

Key inventory of original instrument had 4 D keys and 20 black keys.  The conversion requires 25 D keys and 24 black keys.  So you need to order 4 blacks and 21 D's.  Cost per key was reasonable, $4.60 * 25 = $115.

One other oddity about the Roland keys and hinges is that while the black and white keys are interchangable -- internally the Roland design intends that a white key be mounted in a white position and black in black.  This is due to the way all keys use the same part number coil spring.  But the blacks and whites have differing spring tensions, achieved by the way the springs are held and positioned at the endpoints of the spring by plastic moldings.

So the end result is after the conversion, the keys now have slightly differing depression forces, depending on how the spring mounting tabs combined with the all-identical spring parts.  It's true I could try to fiddle each spring to compensate for this, but I didnt have the patience for that.  I just live with the slightly odd feel.

I don't think all manufacturers used this same hack for adjusting key depression force.  So it would pay to look around for a more uniform approach.

I've attached Pierre's pdf photo of the PC-300 post conversion.  Mine looks the same, minus the tape over some of the black keys.  (Not sure this attachment gets sent if you get the diykeyboard emails in digest form.  If so the attachment is viewable on the Google Groups site.)

William Croft
Lightfield Systems
lightfield.com

[PJP...@aol.com]

Very interesting - I did write to Pierre on you tube on his instrument - if I remember correctly (without checking my email) he used a Kurzweil or a fatar MIDI controller which I'm assuming is more pricey and he didn't mention getting extra D keys any trouble (and was the fatar and kurzweil similar enough to use the same keys?) - the conversation was a long time ago so.......

 

Thanks for the photo - hope your enjoying playing it.

 

Regards; Paulpb

[dominique.waller]

Hi Paul,

 

Thank you for your comments. I was particularly interested in your comparison with stringed instruments, as I am a guitar player, too.

 

Dominique

----- Original Message -----

From: PJP...@aol.com

To: diyke...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 9:59 PM

Subject: Re: [diykeyboard] Re: Symmetrical piano

--

[Pierre Therrien]

Hi everyone,

I tried to reply via email, but it didn't work, so I'll post it here,
without the photos (I don't know if attachments are supported):

Thanks William for directing the message to my direct email address.
I’ve read the various messages in the thread.

I’ve been interested in alternative keyboards for a number of years
now. I started on guitar, tuning in fourths - EADGCF instead of the
usual EADGBE tuning - so that the fretboard would be ‘symmetrical’. I
transformed an acoustic piano in the mid 1990s with a couple of
friends. Unfortunately, it turned out that the instrument got out of
tune very quickly and we had to tune it almost every time we wanted to
play on it. It has been collecting dust in someone’s living room ever
since.

A few years ago, I regained interest in the concept and decided to
modify a portable keyboard – a Roland PC-180A. I made new white keys
by gluing a methacrylate cover on top of the existing keys. I later
modified a Roland PC-300A (the same keyboard with USB connection) with
keys I ordered from the manufacturer.

After playing for about a year with the Roland, I wanted a keyboard
that had the same feel as a real piano, or something close to it. As
William mentions, the Roland is a minimalist controller and feels more
like a toy.

I came across Harald Rieder’s web page (http://mitglied.multimania.de/
Rieder/) and he kindly gave me the information on how he had
transformed his instruments, and most importantly, that he had used D
keys to do so. So yes, it’s all about the D key, the only symmetrical
white key on a conventional keyboard.

After convincing a few friends to let me dismantle their instruments,
I found that it was possible to transform the Kurzweil, which is
equipped with a Fatar keyboard. The most difficult part was modifying
the metal frame under the keybed.

I’m very happy with the instrument. Apart from the symmetrical layout,
I believe that one of the main advantages of my two-row 6-6 keyboard
is the space between the white keys. On a conventional keyboard, the
keys are 22mm wide. On mine, there is a 5mm gap between every white
key, which means you have an extra 10mm – 5mm on each side. Also, you
don’t have to stretch more to play the same intervals as on a
conventional keyboard – in fact, you have that extra space for large
intervals – it’s quite easy to play 9ths and 10ths. Another thing I
really like about it is the weighted feel of the keys.

I would love to try a Janko keyboard. Unfortunately, they’re not easy
to find. However, I’ve always thought that the keys seem rather small.
I may be wrong. That’s one of the things which I don’t like about the
Chromatone (I may be wrong again, I’ve never played one either) – the
keys look really small and flimsy. Also, I wonder how you can find
your way around, as there doesn’t seem to be any ‘reference’ key. I
have two coloured keys on mine – the red key is A, and the green one
is Eb.

I recently modified another small keyboard using a different
procedure. I cut the front part of all the white keys and glued them
back to convert them into D keys. I wanted a better small keyboard to
play synth sounds without having to do a keyboard split on the
Kurzweil. The only minor disadvantage is the joint between the narrow
part and the wide part.

I’m attaching a few pictures.

Any comments will be appreciated.

Regards
Pierre

On Sep 26, 10:39 am, "dominique.waller" <dominique.wal...@wanadoo.fr>
wrote:

>   For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/diykeyboard?hl=en

[dominique.waller]

Hi Paul Therrien,

Did your pictures got lost or maybe you forgot to attach them ?

Dominique

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pierre Therrien" <pier...@ono.com>
To: "diykeyboard" <diyke...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 11:30 AM
Subject: [diykeyboard] Re: Symmetrical piano

Hi everyone,

I tried to reply via email, but it didn't work, so I'll post it here,
without the photos (I don't know if attachments are supported):

Thanks William for directing the message to my direct email address.

I�ve read the various messages in the thread.

I�ve been interested in alternative keyboards for a number of years

now. I started on guitar, tuning in fourths - EADGCF instead of the

usual EADGBE tuning - so that the fretboard would be �symmetrical�. I

transformed an acoustic piano in the mid 1990s with a couple of
friends. Unfortunately, it turned out that the instrument got out of
tune very quickly and we had to tune it almost every time we wanted to

play on it. It has been collecting dust in someone�s living room ever
since.

A few years ago, I regained interest in the concept and decided to

modify a portable keyboard � a Roland PC-180A. I made new white keys

by gluing a methacrylate cover on top of the existing keys. I later
modified a Roland PC-300A (the same keyboard with USB connection) with
keys I ordered from the manufacturer.

After playing for about a year with the Roland, I wanted a keyboard
that had the same feel as a real piano, or something close to it. As
William mentions, the Roland is a minimalist controller and feels more
like a toy.

I came across Harald Rieder�s web page (http://mitglied.multimania.de/

Rieder/) and he kindly gave me the information on how he had
transformed his instruments, and most importantly, that he had used D

keys to do so. So yes, it�s all about the D key, the only symmetrical

white key on a conventional keyboard.

After convincing a few friends to let me dismantle their instruments,
I found that it was possible to transform the Kurzweil, which is
equipped with a Fatar keyboard. The most difficult part was modifying
the metal frame under the keybed.

I�m very happy with the instrument. Apart from the symmetrical layout,

I believe that one of the main advantages of my two-row 6-6 keyboard
is the space between the white keys. On a conventional keyboard, the
keys are 22mm wide. On mine, there is a 5mm gap between every white

key, which means you have an extra 10mm � 5mm on each side. Also, you
don�t have to stretch more to play the same intervals as on a
conventional keyboard � in fact, you have that extra space for large
intervals � it�s quite easy to play 9ths and 10ths. Another thing I

really like about it is the weighted feel of the keys.

I would love to try a Janko keyboard. Unfortunately, they�re not easy
to find. However, I�ve always thought that the keys seem rather small.
I may be wrong. That�s one of the things which I don�t like about the
Chromatone (I may be wrong again, I�ve never played one either) � the

keys look really small and flimsy. Also, I wonder how you can find

your way around, as there doesn�t seem to be any �reference� key. I
have two coloured keys on mine � the red key is A, and the green one
is Eb.

I recently modified another small keyboard using a different
procedure. I cut the front part of all the white keys and glued them
back to convert them into D keys. I wanted a better small keyboard to
play synth sounds without having to do a keyboard split on the
Kurzweil. The only minor disadvantage is the joint between the narrow
part and the wide part.

I�m attaching a few pictures.

[dominique.waller]

Thanks, Pierre. Really neat. Dominique

----- Original Message -----

From: Pierre

To: diyke...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 10:29 AM

Subject: Re: [diykeyboard] Re: Symmetrical piano

Roland PC-180 with methacrylate keys

 

 Roland PC-300 with factory keys

 

 Kurzweil SP88

 

Evolution MK-249 

 

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